A view from overseas

As some of you will be aiming to work overseas, I thought I'd share my view with you. My background:

Uni degree: Property Management
Exams: 11 exams with UK Institute of Actuaries
Experience: New Zealand, Australia, Dubai (now)

I'd like to tell you my story because I am not your standard actuarial student. This is to prove that as long as you are interested to be an actuary and got the capabilities to be one, you can become one. As you can see from my background, I didn't study a "related" degree, I am no Maths whizz and I don't think I am going to be filthy rich any time soon.

I first heard of the word actuary when I started looking for a job, I studied for the exams at home when I joined an insurance company who would pay for my studies. I got tired of exams (after only passing 2!) and switched to an IT/ Marketing job for a couple of years, which somehow proved to be quite useful for me personally. I later got an actuarial post with a consultancy where they utilised a lot of my programming skills, in fact I think that is why they hired me in the first place. From there I continued my exams and made good progress. I have recently married and started up a new life in Dubai, working in a reinsurance company, STILL continuing my exams.

So the morale of the story, you don't get stucked once you go into the actuarial profession, you can switch to other professions you like. The actuarial profession is very wide and is not confined to insurance companies only, there is also investment, pension funds, health systems, government departments, even weather forecasts!! As to what qualification you need to have to sit the exams, I saw a 16 years old sitting the exam once (his dad is an actuary), so I'd say no special qualification needed.

Of course, this is my experience overseas, it may be a different story in Malaysia.

I would also like to add my two cents about the "good in Maths" part. To become a good actuary you have to be very market conscious, your technical pricing maybe 100% sound but it doesn't mean your product will sell. Judgement is very important, if not more important than your maths! My actuarial manager once told me if he copied the competitor's pricing, our product will sell better than pure technical pricing. I studied no maths in uni and now finding the applications paper in the later stage of the course easier, I was told some maths whizz struggles with the applications paper in the end while passing the technical papers without any problems.

Also, I would like to urge you to be prepared to give a significant portion of your life away for a good 6 years if not more. Especially for the females out there, think about how it is going to affect your prospects for marriage and having kids. I say this because I see a lot of girls' relationship suffer because of the lack of time for love, and sadly end up single (and deemed "unapproachable" by most guys) when they qualify.

Ok, I hope you are still awake and I have given you some useful info about working in the actuarial profession overseas.

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Added on April 6, 2010, 8:02 pmOne more point to make if you are in it for the money.........

In Dubai, my husband, a civil engineer, earns DDOOUUBBLLEE my salary. He just got his job this year too, so you may as well do engineering!

This post has been edited by dubai_gal: Apr 6 2010, 08:02 PM

thanks for the info! by the way, what is the objective of all these exam? to become an certified actuary? since you said you were able to work in actuarial post with only 2 past exam
i'm kinda confused with those exam everyone is talking about, so i wanna know what exam is necessarily to be done? and what is it for? since some people able to work in actuarial post without taking all/some actuarial exam.

thanks for giving advice or info, where i'm confused yet, is interested.. thanks!

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Added on April 7, 2010, 12:14 amohya, and where can we take those compulsory exam? if is needed..

This post has been edited by 9rac3: Apr 7 2010, 12:14 AM

You can work in the actuarial field without any exams, especially in places where accredited university actuarial courses are not available. A lot of companies hire statistics grad to fill actuarial position. Most companies will hire actuarial students who are determined to go through the whole exam system. However, you only advance to more senior roles after passing exams. Usually, you are stucked at manager level and cannot proceed to director level without being fully qualified.

As to the exam system, the UK system requires you to pass 15 papers to become fully qualified. The more exams you get, the more you will understand the work that you will be doing. You cannot learn all the technical knowledge by practising because too much technical knowledge will be assumed as people are given basic knowledge through the exams.

For info on the exams and how to sit the exams, visit this website
http://www.actuaries.org.uk/students

There are even some past year exams there you can look at if you want. Also bear in mind the syllabus can change over time, it used to be 9 exams 20 or so years ago, now it is 15.

You can find study guides for each exam here:
http://www.acted.co.uk/Html/paper_study_guide.htm

You also order materials from this site, if you reside in Malaysia you qualify for reduced rate fees and materials.

Please bear in mind that I am not working in Malaysia and I do not know how they hire over there. From experience, companies overseas hire whoever they think is suitable, just like some engineers will get into investment banking jobs.

There see, someone in the field has spoken. You can get a job without the papers. Please don't listen to the rubbish that an actuarial degree is a useless piece of paper.

which uni u graduate from?uk?

dubai_gal did mention she did actuarial job without actuarial degree or exam papers.However , actuarial degree can grant exam paper exemptions.

I graduated from the grand University of Auckland! LOL

I have no actuarial degree and no actuarial exams when I got my first actuarial job. In fact, when I graduated from uni I have not heard of actuaries before.

The message I am trying to get across is...
An actuarial degree do not guarantee you a job in the industry; and
No actuarial degree and no actuarial paper do not mean you won't get a job in the profession if you are truly interested in the field.

My understanding of the "accredited university actuarial papers" vs the "institute exams":

- there are 15 (UK) institute exams to pass before you become a fully qualified actuary. Other institutes have different number of exams.

- one or two university papers map to an institute exam, if you get good enough grades in the university papers, you get exemption from the institute. i.e. you passed that institute exam as well. Otherwise, you still have to sit the institute exam if all you have is borderline university paper pass. "Good enough grade" varies by university.

- you can sit the institute papers without any uni degree, all you have to do is enrol as a student with the institute and study by correspondence.

The best outcome from a university actuarial course is you get 10 exemptions (maybe higher for some UK unis). However, if you don't get any, you still have a better standing when you start the institute exams as you already have the background knowledge from your university course. There are people ordering books without any prior knowledge or maths like me and try to self learn the hard way.

where do u sit the institute exam?

This post has been edited by beyond_99: Apr 8 2010, 10:25 AM

good info! thanks! for my case, no harm taking a degree since i have no degree at all, atleast having a degree able to have more job opportunity (ofcuz i hope to work in actuarial post) but my age and financial might not allow as i need to give up my current job n study the degree..
i have question here, where can i enrol as a student, like wat beyond_99 asked, where to sit in the exam? honestly, i dunno where to start.. =/

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Added on April 8, 2010, 11:35 amanyone know?

i know dubai_gal taking course in UK, so she might not know where to get in at m'sia..

This post has been edited by 9rac3: Apr 8 2010, 11:35 AM

You can enrol with the institute of actuaries UK and sit exams in Malaysia, for a list of exam centres, see http://www.actuaries.org.uk/students/exams...entres_overseas

Of course you may want to check out other options first.

I think you may have given people some misconception about actuarial science

1. I want to do Actuarial Science because I like Math.
This is the biggest misconception that people have about Actuarial Science. In actual fact, a good knowledge of Mathematics is necessary, but a great knowledge is not. In the UK, the first 8 professional papers are somewhat Maths-based, but the tougher papers at the end are all written papers, which require a good command of English, a good knowledge of the insurance industry and good critical thinking skills. Throughout my course, the most difficult branch of Maths we did was Calculus and Linear Algebra, and that is not saying much. When you do start working, you will realise that the only Math you need are mostly addition and subtraction. Computer Programming will be the most important skill you will ever need. And to all of those who says that they need Further Math in their A-Levels, I did Math, Economics and Law. If you like Math, do a Mathematics degree.

Yes! You may be true that when we start working, the only maths that is needed is addition and subtraction. However, why do you think that most people have to study so much mathematics just to take an actuarial science major? We have to know as well, passing those professional papers are not easy at all and it needs mathematics! Actuarial science major is more than mathematics as it involves economics, finance, computing, communication and others. That's how students are prepared for those harder examinations.

2. I want to do Actuarial Science because the pay is good.
True, we have one of the highest starting salaries in the business world. Not by much though. The thing is, a qualified actuary does earn a lot. But to get that qualification, one has to pass professional papers, and those are not easy by a mile. The average time it takes to pass all your papers in Malaysia is around 6 years, depending on how good you are. (Some do take more than 10 years) And truth be told, all other professions will be able to earn a satisfactory remuneration within 10 years. If you want the money, go into Investment Banking. In a magazine which I have read, in business, while all other financial workers are paying off their mortgage for their first house, Investment Bankers are buying their second home.

True that it's a good pay. However, the situation may not be as bad as u may have said. To earn a lot, we need qualification, which is by passing papers. However, if one were to be serious in actuarial science, he/she would have plan to take some papers when doing their degree. Serious students would on average pass about 4 papers(SOA/CAS) by the time they graduated with their actuarial degree. Hence, it may not take that many years to pass all the papers. Moreover, to be exact, it's not that you can only earn a lot by passing all the papers. In fact, for each paper that you passed, your salary will increase. Lets say you passed 4 papers(SOA/CAS) after 3 years you graduated. The pay is already vert high as compared to other degree holders are still working their way up in their career

3. I can pass all my professional exams if I work hard enough.
I want to believe this. I really do want to believe this. But with only 50 qualified actuaries in Malaysia, doesn’t it make you doubt that the only reason people are failing is because of a lack of effort? Studying is easy enough. Working is easy enough. Studying while working is not. While I was working in Malaysia, a colleague of mine works from 9 to 7 everyday, if he is lucky. On his way to and back from work, he studies on the LRT. If there is overtime, he will need to stay back and continue working. On weekends, he studies. At night, after being thoroughly exhausted at work, he studies. And while doing all these, he needs to find time for his girlfriend, family and friends. Now, ask yourself this: can you picture yourself doing that for a year? 3 years? 10 years?

I have to say i have to disagree with you. YES one can pass all professional papers if they work hard enough. For the actuarial field, if you are working for an actuarial company, you would usually be given study break if you were to take a professional exam. They would give you holidays so that you can study and prepare well for the papers. Therefore, the situation is not as bad as you said it is. You said that why is there only about 50 qualified actuary in Malaysia? This may not be because passing the papers are very hard. This may be because the actuarial field are not familiar to the society yet. The so-called qualified actuaries are those who passed all the papers. However, those who have passed a few papers are also actuary, just that they are not fully accredited.

I just want to clear out some misconception that TS may bring to you. In short, actuarial science is really a very rewarding career. If you like maths, do mathematics, like money, do investment banking. If you like both maths and money, do actuarial science. Moreover, an actuarial career is one of the best career because despite of its high demand, the workload is not as much. It is also ranked the best job in 2010.

Still, these is something that i have to agree with TS. Many people are taking actuarial science without first exploring what Actuarial science is all about. I have a friend who took physics in Matriculation took actuarial science for university just because many people are taking it. Many people even take actuarial science without knowing what actuarial science it, and that they have no idea about those professional papers. For them, it is just another degree that give you a lot of money once you graduated. This is the major misconception about actuarial science.

so jpysh2004, r u an actuarial student, or working in actuarial field?

Thanks a lot jpysh2004... your informations are really helpful... Can i ask a few question on this topic? I'm actually interested in maths/add maths and problem solving... And i do like things about financial all... but i'm afraid my maths is just a basic level... i'm not a genius or whatever... but i have no interest in any other profession... i actually thought i would do fine in engineering fields because of the maths... And i am a IT science student... So, should i take on actuarial science or should i just do other mathematical field like financial analyst, investment banking, etc... And i do not quite like accounts... but i like economics... i'm really confused here... thanks for every piece of your opinion.

you can never get into a subject just because of maths cause even engineering is not all about maths. there's physics, chemistry and lab skills as well.
what type of maths do you love?
for actuarial studies, its a shitload of statistics and finance. not the mean, mode, median kind of statistics but the abstract kind of statistics (ie stochastic modelling) and finance kind of statistics (ie: financial maths, life contingencies...)
I HATED THEM ALL but i'm already graduating so... ya. how many person in the world actually reallyyyy love their job anyway?

Firstly, you have to understand that the demand for actuarial science grads in Malaysia had significantly due to the excessive supply. If you try to go out and look for jobs, you'll notice how scarce is it. But of course, I'm talking about vacancies in insurance(general/life/takaful) and consulting(life,general,health&benefits,pension&retirement). Other than that, feel free to search around. But what I am suggesting students who want to proceed with this career to actually major in statistics/computer programming/and any other majors(finance,economics,accounting). That way, you won't be stuck with only "real actuarial" job. Talking from experience here. Those newspaper article talking about the growing demand is utter bullshit, literally, especially the ex-ASM president who always go around promoting the non-existent demand. Mathematics is not crucial, but critical and analytical thinking is crucial in this line.

Yes. It's true that maths alone would not be sufficient enough for any field but there are some fields that require more mathematical skill than others. I love the probability/mathematical reasoning/linear programming types of maths. I am actually interested in finance stuffs. Yea, i also heard about it. the stochastics modelling,black and scholes formula and people are telling that statistics are one of the worst things one could possibly studies. Most of the feedbacks i got about this course are negative one. That makes me rethink. And, i came up with another course, which is financial engineering. Currently offered at mmu only in Malaysia if i'm not mistaken. So, you are an actuarial science student? Can i knw where are you studying and how the whole course is from u're experience? thanks.

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Added on May 19, 2010, 4:12 amThanks for your opinion. I thought of joining some company as a actuarial trainee. Is it possible? So, this majors, can we choose it? And, do every university gives us chance to major in specific field? what about the statistics? What do i need to do to be good at it? From the info that i got, it seems like actuarial science is a demanding career option since you can go for many type's of finance/economics related works besides being an actuarist. What do you think about financial engineering course?

This post has been edited by danes007: May 19 2010, 04:12 AM

Financial engineering is more of pure mathematics, such as analysis, differential equations, linear algebra (well you rely alot on those 3 areas), and probability. but NOT stats. (there is a difference between stats and probability)

basically financial engineering is mostly pure maths (analysis, differential equations, linear algebra), and some probaility (stochastic processes), but less of stats.

where as actuarial science is more of statistics.

personally its really up to you, but financial engineering IMO has better career prospects in the financial sector because its not so directed into actuarial/insurance stuff.

read this: about financial engineering (also called quantitative finance, etc.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_Finance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%C5%8D's_lemma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black%E2%80%93Scholes

and most people do financial engineering/financial maths etc.. as a masters degree 1 year course, whereas actuarial science alot of people do it as a 3 years undergrad course.

hello are you still in high school or are you a college student already?
im currently studying at the australian national university and... i would say its a pretty horrible experience for me cause i hate complicated and abstract stuffs...... and pretty much all the later year subjects are complicated and abstract. if i would've been given a second chance, i'll just go for accounting. actuarial's a little too ambitious for me :/
but still, its up to personal preference. i know people who loved it and does very well in it.
so ya, it isn't an easy course, but i guess with hardwork.. its doable. i guess. *inserts skepticism*

oh and im not very sure about financial engineering. it might be something similar to quantitative finance... which is rather close to actuarial, minus all the insurance focused subjects like life contingencies, actuarial techniques, survival model, risk theory bla bla. well thats what happen in my uni so im not sure if its the same in mmu!

This post has been edited by OnionII: May 19 2010, 08:14 PM

What are the job prospects available in financial engineering field and which one is most desirable in term of work,salaries, working hours, and demands. Does this kind of jobs depends on economical state of a country? does it means that it is not a very stable field and one might lose their job under economic crisis? If you compare financial jobs with engineering jobs, which one would you say better overall? I'm so confused here. Thanks for your opinion.

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Added on May 20, 2010, 11:55 am*economical status

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Added on May 20, 2010, 1:13 pmI just finish my secondary school. Now, choosing the right college/uni to enter. Oh, so u're studying in Australia, what do you think about engineering field? If compared financial field and engineering field, which 1 would you suggest and why? How's an actuarist's job? Is it interesting? Or just spending the whole life in excel with statistics and all that? thanks.

This post has been edited by danes007: May 20 2010, 01:13 PM

any job is risky (well, maybe not doctors) when theres an economic crisis.
and sorry i lost you there. your term 'engineering' refers to financial engineering or the mechanical/civil type of engineering? but anyway,
define interesting. cause some people find fishing interesting while alot don't. it depends on how much you like it seriously. i like shopping so i think a job as an actuary is damn boring. but if you work as a consultant actuary, you get to talk to clients, meet people, and stuffs like that. so that being said, its more interesting to work in the consultancy field!
btw, thought you should know that the word "actuarist" doesn't exist. a person who work in the acturial field is called an actuary. and the plural of it is "actuaries".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actuary

all the best for ur future undertakings!

Yea. Interesting for me would be like meeting people,travelling, solving problems, etc. What i mean by engineering is engineering degree such as chemical,aeronautics,petroleum, etc. But, one can't be a consultant right after graduate right? Frusted because of jpa result. Haaaaaizzzz... And. Sorry, my bad. Thanks for correcting me.