Note to readers and people replying: This is only for discussion purposes. I don't intend to sway anyone away from bodybuilding/weightlifting. I myself have not been affected by this knowledge. I still go to the gym frequently, eat loads and sweat it out!

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To start off, biogerontology is a fairly new area of research. Experimental studies in model organisms (C. elegans, D. melanogaster, M. musculus) have shown that:

1. A higher metabolism causes you to age quicker. This is consistent with the most popular theory of ageing: the free radical theory of ageing. The basic idea of the theory is that a higher metabolism results in greater energy expenditure. As we all know the powerhouse of the cell (so fondly named by all biology students) is the mitochondria. Energy is generated via the electron transport chain (ETC). However, coupling in the ETC is not perfect and thus, the generation of free radicals that can potentially damage DNA, protein, lipids etc.

The free radical damage is a viscious cycle. Once the mitochondria DNA (mtDNA) is damaged, the poor repair mechanisms causes mutations to accumulate with age. As you may be able to deduce by now, increased energy expenditure by a higher metabolic rate _would_ in fact cause you to possibly age quicker. This is assuming that this theory is true.

2. Corroborating the idea of free radical theory of ageing is the rate of living theory, whereby your lifespan is measured by oxygen consumption in litres/kg (also known as life energy potential - LEP) throughout your entire lifespan. It has been speculated that mammals have a constant value for the life energy potential. This was demonstrated in squirrels and horses. Despite huge differences in maximum lifespan, the LEP for both animals were about the same (60,000 l/kg).

Hence, a higher metabolic rate would limit your lifespan because you would reach your life energy potential quicker.

3. Larger animals have shorter lifespan. Big dogs die quicker. Birds live longer for their size. A study of baseball players (controlled for affluence, a major factor in today's measure of lifespan) showed that BMI was inversely related to lifespan. For every ~kg, there was a reduction in lifespan of 5 months.

4. Dietary restriction (DR) was shown to extend lifespan in model organisms. It was demonstrated that DR delays the onset of late life diseases such as cancer, diabetes, hypertension, autoimmune disorders. DR also slows age related decline in blood glucose control, fecundity, muscle mass, DNA repair and learning ability, to name a few. However, this has not been successfully demonstrated in humans, although it should be noted that Okinawans from Japan have the highest number of centenarians (or super-centenarians) to date. Their diet is largely responsible for this. They eat in moderation (children 60% less and adults 20% less when compared to world wide data).

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So that's a summary of what you need to know for discussion. I didn't quote any papers, but if there are specific parts that you wish to refer to, I can find quotes although I may be slow with that kind of response.

My question is, knowing what you know now, would this affect your love for weightlifting and the dietary requirements that come alongside it?

It certainly hasn't affected mine, I would like to know your opinion on the matter. Also, don't show me a picture of Nubret.

so they say high met>more free radical
errmmm... more antioxidants? XD

Antioxidants were shown not to have an effect on reducing free radical damage by consumption. The antioxidant boom in the market, apparently promoting longevity is an exaggeration of experimental results in research.

Promoting genes that code for antioxidant expression in cells (namely, Cu/Zn superoxide dismutase, glutathione peroxidase and catalase) reduced free radical damage to cells and resulted in longevity. This was immediately picked up upon by enthusiastic entrepeneurs to market antioxidants as 'anti-ageing' products.

None of it has been successful in reversing the effects of ageing, as experimentally demonstrated.

I used to have those assumptions as well until I learnt more about oxidative stress (which is linked to that free radical theory) and it's link to a lot of diseases that one gets in old age (and surprisingly appearing in younger folks). There was also a link to the benefits of strength training in curbing osteoporosis in women as well as helping with athritis.

Hmm....and today, dietary restriction may not be a catchy phrase anymore because it can be misleading at times. Yes, we should be limiting intake of fats and carbohydrates but there is also a research trend in health benefits of other foods. Moderation may be oversimplifying it and there are more rules to the Japan diet. I'm rather intrigued by it and have been reading 2 books about Japan Diet but sadly, it's not written by a bodybuilder/weightlifter.

Anyway, back to the free radical theory. If you can get hold or just browse through a book called "What your doctor doesn't know about Nutritional Medicine may be killing you" by Dr. Ray Strand. There are lot of research links in that book as well as a more detailed explaination of the free radical theory and linking it to oxidative stress. If you don't want to buy it, that's fine. Just browse through it at a local bookstore and see what he says.

I got a huge shock when finding out that the oxidative stress and free radical theory was a result of our immune system trying re-balance out our body needs and it went awry because we didn't have the sufficient nutrients or exercise the body needed. And that oxidative stress was the result of muscular degeneration, arthrities, Parkinson's Disease, heart diseases , diabetes, cancer, osteoporosis, eye disorders, etc.

So when that kind of proof hits you between the eyes, one gets shaken to the core completely, considering that a lot of health info and assumption gets debunk.

Hmm...I've just sent my book to a friend. I'll try to get it back and scan some pages for you to read up on the theory on oxidative stress and how the free radicals fit it.

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Added on April 20, 2009, 9:08 amHmm...I need to seriously get that book back and paste you some scanned pages on the findings of this doctor about the research. Mind you, for neurudegenerative diseases like Parkinson's and Alzheimer, he doesn't claim that it cures it completely but that it slows it down and that more research is needed in the field of antioxidants.

The creditability of this man came from the way that he wrote the book and the fact that he totally turn around his thinking about antioxidants when he saw how his wife recovered from fibromyalgia when traditional Western medication couldn't help her at all. She had chronic fatigue and bedridden for years until she took some antioxidants (which was more than vitamins A, C, E) and could get out of bed after 6 months (it's a slow therapy, no denying it). She is now healthy and is a horse trainer (a backbreaking job).

Having said that, I am very wary of marketing gimmicks by MLMs and pharceutical companies touting the benefits of a few antioxidant reduction.

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Added on April 20, 2009, 9:09 am
http://www.precisionnutrition.com/research...to-hit-the-iron

A bit of a side note but about the benefits of weight-training for older woman. The granny in the last pic looks cool.

This post has been edited by myremi: Apr 20 2009, 09:10 AM

U guys are good in essay

anyway, the aging stuff is quite obvious for some individuals, as i can see it from my lecturer last time, he a triathlon competitors and he is only on his early 30's and he looks like 40's.

However, eventhou it cause aging, but i think during the older age, these are the strong group of ppl among their same age community.

go see this old guy at www.bobdelmonteque.com and tell me he looks old... the fact is most people will benefit more from exercise and body building rather than not doing it at all... just look at your grand parents..

funny thing you brought this up mofonyx because this thought has been lingering in my mind for quite sometime. surprisingly enough, most bodybuilders look younger when they hit their 50s which kinda goes against that ageing-theory, no? i know this isnt remotely connected to what youve discussed above but makes you wonder, ryte?

perhaps the after effect of growth hormone that they look much younger, registryeditor? if so, me myself would love to hav some dose

well, that is one factor. but then again, i do have friends who are waaayyyyy past my age league that actually does serious weightlifting and they still look way younger than their age. and, no, they are not on the gear.

No, everyone is going to grow old eventually and you are only young once. Also, Arnold doesn't look very old.

and you're point is?

Taking a piss...

"You will be different, sometimes you'll feel like an outcast, but you'll never be alone. You will make my strength your own. You will see my life through your eyes, as your life will be seen through mine. The son becomes the father and the father becomes the son." - a quote taken from Superman Returns.

Long story short, it's a good reflection on what cure it can offer.



Some risks of calorie restriction diets included - reduced bone density, loss of muscle mass, anemia, memory loss, dizziness and depression. Ain't worth it if you ask me.

No point fighting against aging.

I'll get old eventually anyway, so I might as well make the most of my youth.

Tsk.... just because it's the internet, it has to be true. Just because there're just a few studies which are impressive sounding. they have to be true. Research results based on meta research? Lol, there's not enough studies done on biogerontology. Key word, "experimental research".

Come back and post more on this when they're really established. Funny that, I don't remember bodybuilders ever listening to scientists.

@registryeditor/jamis/eksk: To bring things into perspective. My dad can run forever. He looks early 40s when really he's mid 50s. Resting heart rate is low 50s.

Then again, he doesn't eat in excess. He doesn't weigh a lot. So this still stands for all points because a lower BMI means lower basal metabolic rate. Exercise does show to promote a healtheir life. However, the ideas related to bodybuilding (eat loads, lift loads, get big) are all favouring a faster age-related decline. This was what I was trying to say (I may have missed out or argued differently earlier because it was 3am when I posted), that the bodybuilding paradigm is everything the study of biogerontology has shown to promote ageing.

Perhaps the active activity comes alongside practicing a healthier lifestyle. At least for me that is true. I don't club, binge drink, eat crap, and never have smoked.

@cofactor3: The concept of DR is not being a glutton. If you eat right you will be okay, I believe. In fact, there are reduced rates of such ageing related conditions like you have described with Okinawan Japanese.

@florian/dan: That's the same way I look at it. You're not going to live forever, but then again, it'll be great if you could live longer.

@colemon: Can't really recall right now, but yes hGH was a treatment to counteract ageing. However, exercise was shown to slow ageing even more. Note I said exercise, not 'bulking up'. Refer reply to registryeditor/jamis/eksk.

@darklight: Well that's just typical of you. I didn't get this from the internet. Search David Gems, Linda Patridge, Cynthia Kenyon for an idea of biogerontology progress. It's just something intriguing that I thought would be a great point of discussion. Of course, you're not up for any discussions.

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Added on April 20, 2009, 7:38 pmedit: I overlooked myremi's post! Will reply in due time.

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Added on April 20, 2009, 8:31 pm@myremi: I'll try to get hold of the book after my exams. The free radical theory of ageing has held up to be quite true, as far as research goes. Overexpressing free radical scavangers (antioxidants) as I've already mentioned, does show to increase lifespan. Also, interesting point on antioxidant consumption in the form of vitamins to cure a debilitating disease.

It comes to no surprise that the Japanese diet has more rules than just eating in moderation. They are a very cultural country and one can only imagine what happens at the dinner table. Dietary restriction does work wonders for Okinawans, though.

This post has been edited by pizzaboy: Apr 20 2009, 10:04 PM

Japanese have affinity for all things small. Scarcity of natural resources and cultural different played a role here. Small cookwares not doubt have the impact toward their daily serving size.

Love this statement.
But the funny thing is this research shows these results. Yet many that workout, generally look relatively young.
I don't mind, especially considering this is the path my entire life will probably take anyway.

mofonyx : I must say though, that you have much gumption to post about such a topic in this forum. Kudos to you!

About the Japanese way of dieting, I was reading books written by Naomi Moriyama on homecook meals in Japan. "Japanese Women Don't Get Old or Fat" and "The Japan Diet". Yes, food portions are small and the Japanese control it by using small utensils. The homecook meals are not like what we see in Japanese restaurants though although some are. Here's a video of some Japanese meals that she has prepared.

When I compare what kind of diet the Japanese eat and what my Granny cooks today, it's very similar. The common rules are :
-Food ingredients are mostly rice, soy sauce, fish, vegetables and fruits.
-Portion control althougth my Granny does sometimes have a heavier hand on fat and sugar than the Japanese.
-Cooking is done lightly with stir-fry or soup. Occasionally some deep fries but nothing baked or roasted.

Naomi Moriyama also speaks briefly about the Samurai Diet as well and that the secret for their stamina was brown rice i.e. complex carbo as well as other dietary habits that they used to have.

Both books are written from a weight loss perspective and not so much on bodybuilding/weightlifting though. But it does provide an insight to their dietary habits and longevity.

To the others who think that the discussion may be a waste of time on the assumption that bodybuilders don't listen to scientist : That is no longer true. There are health risks that come from bodybuilding that relates to dietary habits and exercise that a lot of them are starting to take more notice of today than 5-10 years ago. Food manufacturing has advanced as well so certain foods are made for the better but others for the worst. Bodybuilding websites are advocating dietary restrictions, even BB.com if some of you would seriously take the time to read it properly because quite a lot of it does tally with what mofonyx is stating. So beating mofonyx just for the sake of it, just remember that for every finger you point at a person, there's another 4 fingers pointing back at the foolish one.

This post has been edited by myremi: Apr 20 2009, 10:05 PM

i partly agree with ur statements as i believe in moderation is the best. however i found that "Larger animals have shorter lifespan" is not wholly true. the research only take the examples that support its statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_life_span

The longest-lived vertebrates have been variously described as

* koi (A Japanese species of fish, 200+ years, though generally not exceeding 25) [7]
* tortoises (Galápagos tortoise) (190 years) [8]
* tuataras (a New Zealand reptile species, 100-200+ years[9])
* whales (Bowhead Whale) (about 200 years)

Bowhead Whale - A stocky dark-colored whale without a dorsal fin, it can grow to 20 meters (66 ft) in length. Estimated maximum weight of this thick-bodied species is 136 tonnes (134 LT; 150 ST), second only to the Blue Whale

Change my mind ? Nope.

First of all this is not a confirmed result ... When I google "weightlifting" or "weightlifting makes you age faster" I only found "weightlifting makes you happier", "weightlifting aids fat loss" or "weightlifting makes you look better". So to start it off, this is not even a very popular argument yet but certainly there's possibility to everything so I'm not against your statement nor I support it.

For those who said that they meet somebody who lift weights look much order than actual age or the other way round ... It might not be the weightlifting that makes him look old, there's too much about human body to be discovered and you don't know what he actually did. Consider all those good food you're taking, doesn't it kinda compensate the aging issue provided if it's true ?

I found that bodybuilding is kind of like a religion thing that you choose what you want to believe and what you want to do. I'm not here to give you scientific facts and I'm not a science student anyway. In fact I hate it as much as I love hot babes. I'm getting bored of these researches that can't convince me so I don't give a damn about them anymore, I just wanna lift weights.

myremi: Thank you for kudos. No doubt that the diets are entirely different from the bodybuilding/weightlifting diet. Nonetheless, they should be equally interesting because of the longevity benefits of being dietary restricted. Even a diet of 70% ad libitum (ad libitum meaning fed what the mouse would eat given unlimited supply), resulted in extended lifespan in mouse models. Which is, if you think about it, not a lot less to eat!

Of course, this would be less than ideal for bodybuilding. A caloric deficit is frowned upon!

Also, I saw your other post on oxidative stress from foods. I found that quite informative, maybe you could crosspost the link to that thread on this page! I'm surprised you didn't bring that up in discussion


@T+1: Indeed this is fact that larger animals have shorter lifespan is a truncation of information that could very well lead to misinformation. However, if you look within species (i.e. dogs, humans), this does apply!

There is also a theory about extrinsic hazard. If animals are protected, like that of tortoises (armour from the hard shell), they are long lived. This was also shown to be true in snakes, where the same species had poisonous and non-poisonous breeds. The poisonous snakes appear to be longer lived.

Your point is a solid one. Such statistical data should be taken with a pinch of salt.


@JustForFun: That distinguishes a science student from the rest of the population. Research highly interests me. In fact, I hope to lead an important research in the foreseeable future but the story of my life's ambitions is a whole 'nuther discussion.

I did mention that there may be a lifestyle benefit from weightlifting (healthier food, less cigs, less alco). However, it cannot be ignored that bodybuilding/weightlifting is an 'extreme' form of exercise in that some of us intend to reach a size (Ronnie Coleman) that could potentially affect longevity. Exercise is good, but the extremity of professional bodybuilding and it's paradigms could potentially shorten your lifespan, given the current data from biogerontology.

But then again, it's not like I'm gonna stop squatting

This post has been edited by pizzaboy: Apr 21 2009, 08:44 AM

mofonyx : Reason why I didn't post the link here is because I wasn't too sure on the reception.

There is this nasty habit in this forum to just quote names of famous BBers, expecting the reader to believe the poster's creditability by acquaintance alone and not through explaination or reasoning or statements made by famous BBers. And, if the reader doesn't know them, the poster will turn around and verbally abuse the reader for his "ignorance". Using people's names in vain and in such manner is shallow.

Link : http://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopic=987971

From all the reading that I've done to date, some conclusions :

-There are a lot of similarities across nearly all diets i.e. limit carbo, fat, sugar intake, ensure proper cooking method, eat more veggies and controlled portions of fruits, watch portions, etc. If I check out a diabetic diet, I see similarities with the fat-burning diets for some of the BB diets. Portions may be different for the proteins but other than that, still much so the same basic concept and principles.

-One thing interesting about the Japanese diet is the focus on tofu, fish, green tea and lastly, seaweed. The seaweed may just be the last food ingredient left to really study. Green tea and tofu gain acceptance in worldwide culinary but not so seaweed. Coming from the sea, it would have an abundance of nutrients that wouldn't be found in land-grown vegetables due to the the richness of the sea compared to the depletion of the landsoil for farming.

-All body functions and processes are the same for all human beings. It's just a question on whether we have created a certain body environment for the process to take place or not. That's why certain processes will only occur in BBers/WLers (weight lifterss) / athletes and not for the ordinary Joe. But that doesn't mean that they should ignore the health risks faced by the ordinary Joe either.

-It's important to know the condition of your health before you start off and make adjustments accordingly, whether you're just an ordinary person starting off on exercise regime / BBers / WLers/ athletes. A good example is Flex Wheeler where people thought that it was the wrong usage of supplements that brought out his kidney problems when actually it's a genetic problem from birth. Was reading one of the interviews that he gave and he admitted that it was tough having to put up a brave face about it during competitions. He still BB with his new kidney but he now watches his diet and exercise regime.

-Careful when reading research articles. There's not as many research done on getting new results as much as research of comparing literature. It's either experiemental research or literature comparison research.

Aging well is an interesting topic and weightlifting has a role in it. Majority of my information is coming from http://www.precisionnutrition.com because the articles are easier to read since it has less emotional garbage in there. Do you remember the previous articles you linked about Anaerobic Cardio Workout? The stuff in there tallies with what I'm reading about Weight Loss but had to do a lot of "reading between the lines" (the delivery method was terrible and I doubt that most people can really understand the terminologies used).

Oh, one thing I decided to do was order a set of Precision Nutrition and just try to get a better basic understanding about food + exercise + weight lifting. Hopefully can get it by the end of this week or beginning next week.

This post has been edited by myremi: Apr 21 2009, 09:30 AM

Umami - Ikeda K (November 2002). "New seasonings". Chem. Senses 27 (9): 847–9. PMID 12438213. http://chemse.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/pmidl...g&pmid=12438213. (partial translation of Ikeda, Kikunae (1909). "New Seasonings[japan.]". Journal of the Chemical Society of Tokyo 30: 820–836. )

Enjoy...

Free radical damage normally occurs in High Rep exercises ... especially in cardio ... speed increases the free radicals

it cannot, not adequate to be noticable in weight lifting, due to the Low Rep ...


however free radicals is a double-edge sword ....... if your body have a lot of free radicals due to exercising, your body IMPROVES more drastically .. compared to taking vit.c or vit.e to cut down free radicals ..

long story short, more, pain, more improvement ... but also more dmg

Cheeky monkey here...

The text is on taste lah, not about health benefits lah.

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Added on April 21, 2009, 2:13 pmTo counteract the damage, eat more vegetables and take more antioxidants other than vitamins A, C, E.

The real definition for antioxidants is not just 3 vitamins are we have been drummed continuously by marketing gimmicks. It's actually more i.e. substance that inhibits oxidation or inhibits reactions promoted by oxygen or peroxides. This will include trace minerals, CoQ10, Grapeseed (which surprisingly is 50x more effective as an antioxidant provided it's taken in combination with other antioxidants), glucosamine, fish oil, etc.

The human body is an amazing and ingenious invention. It has the build-in capacity to deal with a lot of major health problems, provided that it has the necessary materials to do so. And, the only way that it can get these materials is by eating. So, eat your greens.

This post has been edited by myremi: Apr 21 2009, 02:13 PM

Glutamic acid was indicative for the taste as found by the study from seaweed extract. Its isolated chloride-salt compound is Monosodium Glutamate, MSG. Now, where that load of health benefits from MSG you have grown accustom to?

Merry go round…stupid lah.

It's currently a merry-go-round because the Westerners haven't yet figured out how is it that Japanese ppl can take so much salt and MSG in their diet and still live so long? This includes having majority of their male population having high blood pressure, heavy smokers and drinkers and yet statistically, compared to countries worldwide, they still have less heart problems.

So even though seaweed does contain MSG, how is it that their people doesn't seem to have the violent reaction that others do? Probably the combination of diet and exercise (they walk a lot, even in the city).

Sabarlah kawan. U need to be more positive lah, instead of bitter.

Do you have the study to support your purported claim above?


Again, please forward a study to support your argument above, i.e. intakes of MSG contributed a violent reaction, etc.


...waiting.

Sarcasm doesn't become u. And there I was, thinking that was hope.

The first claim is by sheer observation, considering that it's the Western researchers who did a 180 degree turn when it came to the health benefits of weight training.

2nd claim on MSG contributing violent reaction : should have been written as extreme. By observation of ppl around you who are sensitive to MSG is good enough claims. I've had friends and relatives who either have fainted or agitated from the effect of MSG. Don't u? If you haven't, count yourself lucky.

However, why the seaweed doesn't give that same reaction? It could be that the MSG is not in it's purified + crystallize form as the MSG used for cooking. Or it could be that there's other stuff in the seaweed that negates the bad effects of MSG when eating seaweed. Hypothetical.

And you will keep waiting.

Body building results in greater BMR. Greater BMR means more O2 consumption/day. More O2 consumption results in greater energy expenditure, which in turn would increase the likelihood of free radical production.

However, exercise was shown to delay ageing. What's important here is to draw the line between detrimental stress and positive stress on the body. It would be ideal to work around the positive stress region. As emphasized before, this is entirely against the idea of bodybuilding. It's a slippery slope indeed.

@ahnien: Yes, I mind. What does that have to do with anything?

@myremi: Don't take CoFactor3's posts too seriously. He likes to flamebait. Check previous posts.

mofonyx : Learning that now. But, having to grow up with a very grumpy uncle, it's easy to deal with people like them. Just give them back the same treatment and they usually back off.

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Added on April 22, 2009, 4:49 amHmm...and since we were talking about Japanese diets, have just found something new : Bento Box Food Art.

Something to do now.

This post has been edited by myremi: Apr 22 2009, 04:49 AM

Now that's hypocrite. Noted: Myremi likes to make baseless and unfounded claim.

What's more pathetic? Nobody seem to able to bring up a valid study to support the claims either.

LOL! If that's your best shot, you must seriously be running out of ideas now.

Another self indulged hypothetical claim.

Sick.

Yup my father is like a live MSG detector too. Everytime I go to eat something new with him he can detect whether the food has MSG or not, he's very sensitive to it. No fainting or anything of that sort but, still has negative effects.

Sensitivity to MSG could easily be masked by other substances present in particular - disodium 59-inosinate (IMP) and disodium 59-guanylate (GMP) - which are also common among food enhancers.

You can't hold MSG solely responsible for his sensitive taste receptors.




... awaiting a study on MSG contributed to violent reaction as claimed by Myremi.



This post has been edited by CoFactor-3: Apr 22 2009, 08:52 AM

cofactor-3 : Then you just have to wither and wait then. Because you're obviously unwilling to even share much until the other party has posted. So wait.

One thing about food enhancers is that most of them aren't in the foods unless it's processed food. Not all food enhancers are available in the market, not to mention that it may not seem practical to go and identify it down to the individual component and then erase it out from the menu.

And remember what I said about nasty habits and pointing fingers.

mofonyx : Give me a bit of time to read up on the Okinawa Diet page. I also just recently found the Japanese Food Pyramid which is surprisingly a spinning top.

http://item.rakuten.co.jp/yellowstudio/c/0000000352/
http://www.maff.go.jp/english_p/shokuiku.pdf

I'm also feeling more than a bit inspired after looking at Bento Food Art. Never knew that the Japanese also had planning rules for making the size of the container fit to the calorie (well, approximation anyways).

http://lunchinabox.net/2007/03/07/guide-to...size-bento-box/

myremi: Indeed, very cool stuff. The Japanese are smart people indeed. I wish I could contribute more but exams nearing. I will await patiently for your review.

Shit posting won't count as to upheld your claims without the support of a valid study. Will wait while you do your shooting frenzy elsewhere.

BTW: I got a cool PM from Pizzaboy (salute). Here's what it said:
---------------------------------------------
Hello. Good day.

Your posts in the weightlifting makes you age quicker, is clearly flame baiting. In 1 hour, you've had two posts reported for flame baiting. Please stop flame baiting or we'll have to give your account a holiday.

Enjoy the forum, but please don't misuse it.

Thank you for cooperating.
---------------------------------------------

It seem the accuse of flame baiting was used to extradite in aiding Myremi failure to produce any valid study as requested by me. Cheeky monkey, you two. There are ways to measure a hypocrite then there is Myremi. Real pity.

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Added on April 22, 2009, 11:46 amThat's lame. In the span of two days starting this thread your exams are nearing already?



This post has been edited by CoFactor-3: Apr 22 2009, 11:46 AM

Sigh. The only reason I stop dealing with you is because you wouldn't give a damn anyway. So what is the point? All I see is a bitter man who takes pleasure in making others feel miserable.

Meh enough.

Mofonyx : GL in your exams.

Obviously a reason strong enough to be claimed as flame baiting and be used as material for the moderator to issue me a good warning. What are you trying to hide so hard? I just requested for a valid study on your purported claims if you seriously give the *damn from the beginning.

Why need to put miseries into everybody else for this? I've covered somebody thought on his father MSG sensitivity with other possible causes. Yet why can't you relief me with the valid study on your claims, if any? Remember, it's you the one who dragged and fueled the matter out of proportion.

Say there are none and we are through with these nonsense or else put them on the table. Simple enough.

I wonder if you really know what you're saying when you say that I'm drawing this out of proportions. For I do not take low-blows method that you do. If you feel that my conversation with pizzaboy is one of it, then so be it. Getting victimized is something that I don't relish so why shouldn't I speak to the mods about it?

In any event, my final post on this topic on MSG in terms of food safety.

There are controversial studies at this point of time when it pertains to MSG. Yes, there are, apparently, other food enhancers in the market but the most common would be MSG.

http://www.foodsafety.gov/~lrd/msg.html
http://www.fda.gov/FDAC/features/2003/103_msg.html

These are overview of studies done by the FDA (the latest being the one in 1995) that even though they could not conclude firmly that MSG was detrimental to health, the reaction of an unknown number of people warranted them to instruct food manufacturers to declare for glutamate substances, be it MSG or other types of food enhancers.

Note that Obama has also requested that food labelling system maintained by FDA be reviewed (http://www.truthinlabeling.org/). One area will probably be this.

Some of the different types of food enhancers worldwide :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavour_enhancer

Another link about MSG is here : http://www.msgtruth.org/

The reaction of MSG lead to the study of Excitotoxicity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excitotoxicity) which included reactions to aspartame.

Research links are included at the end of wiki pages and the various links above.

So, have digress enough. You can find whatever reasons to flame bait or blackball me so it's making no sense to further answer your queries.

The study by [8] Geha RS, Beiser A, Ren C, et al (April 2000). "Review of alleged reaction to monosodium glutamate and outcome of a multicenter double-blind placebo-controlled study", is a real contrast to what your asserted claim was, i.e. violent reaction.

I only read a little of what to favored my argument. Can't find any that support yours.

Overall conclusion from wiki dated 21st April 2009:

These are the works from the credible researchers and well reviewed studies. May be you only came to aware of them after my request for the study support on your claim. Hence, the reluctant and persistent waiting cautionary issued to me. For what???

Like it or not, flame baiting was never my intention. How it came about I also don't know seriously.

...enough Aji no Moto already. The truth served.

What you should have done in the beginning was state your case rather than waiting for me to link stuff.

In any event, I've had enough of having to deal with you.

And if either one of you would stop entertaining each other's bickering, you woudn't have to go on.

You guys are off topic anyway.

It's typical of me to like shooting down people who come in all smart and act as if they know everything yet we don't know how they look like in terms of progress and size. Then they try desperately to prove how knowledgeable they are in bodybuilding but posting PG level links and discussing things like layman under the veneer of copying and pasting arguments from another website.

Yeah, of course it's typical of me to say things like that to people like you since you like to post a lot of wrong info with regards to training advice for newbies. I think if every bodybuilder or strength trainee wannable was like you, the whole board would never progress cos we'd all be too pedantic and caught up in every little itty bitty research. Last thing i remember on bb.com, it was the small guys who get caught up in research like this and argue vigorously till the cows come home. I don't remember big guys like Hola Bola trying to act smart like them. He keeps it simple. Damn, that means.... I have no more reason to post in this thread except to lay the hammer back at you.

I don't really blame CoFactor-3. He doesn't try to pretend to be someone else. At least his flamebaiting has a reason. Lemme simplify things for some of y'all.

Training smart delays aging.

Overtraining accelerates aging.

Simple? No? =)

This post has been edited by darklight79: Apr 22 2009, 05:23 PM

darklight: You're always bitter. Always pessimistic. Always negative. That's why it's so messed up!

I think if every bodybuilder or strength trainee wannable was like you, the whole board would never progress cos we'd all be too pedantic and caught up in every little itty bitty research.

No, I'm not getting caught up in every little itty bitty research. I thought that sharing some knowledge about what I've learnt would be great to spark some active discussion. Like I said, it's not like this has swayed me away from lifting. I love lifting. I'm not changing my diet either.

But you. You refuse to participate in any discussion. Your replies are always dead ended and with a tone that everyone else is wrong and you are right. That may be so, but why the ego? Admittedly >10 years of experience is a long time but it doesn't call for an egoistic reply.

Lastly, what happened to learning new things? Isn't that part of being a discussion forum?

Yeah, of course it's typical of me to say things like that to people like you since you like to post a lot of wrong info with regards to training advice for newbies.

Right, so I made a few bad posts from reading a few bad advises. You hold a grudge for-fkin-ever. What's up with that? I admit that I do not have as much experience as you do. Hence, the bad posts from bad judgement. I admit to be wrong and I appreciate them being checked and marked by you.

Regardless, this has nothing to do with wrong info. It was just about discussion. Note the big IF on the title thread. Did you also miss the huge first sentence?

There was a time when your replies were less egoistic, angry, pessimistic and cocky. I used to surf the forums and think to myself, heck now this guy has >10 years experience and he isn't stuck up. You were the go to guy because you'd take anything and give it back in the calm acceptable tone.

Certainly this has changed. I don't know why but it sucks for everyone.

Non-productive .... maybe even counterproductive thread.

Actually it's a good discussion to start with. It will benefit everyone of us and even the forum provided it comes out with an answer.

No offense but I think that darklight is quite against these new researches done ... I mean every research has to go through this unpopular stage right ? If everyone was so against the new researches, the bodybuilding industry will never progress anyway. I do understand his intention to prevent newbies from being confused by these threads though.

So... Yeah, drama stops or ya'll get warnings or bans. Have a nice evening.

This post has been edited by malaysianPotato: Apr 22 2009, 11:34 PM