numbertwo,

correct about the definition - i have the wordings too. but the question is: since there are no limits besides the annual limit besides for cancer / dialysis how does this clause affect the insured for other disabilities besides cancer and dialysis? the way i read it it doesnt affect you since there is no specified monetary limit present.

thanks for the pointer. i never saw it in conjunction with the 150days. that is a serious loophole. i am running AXA in combination with a top-up so i am pretty save in that respect and since both policies have serious weeknesses that dont really overlap (i.e. AXA 150 days, tokio marine 10k deductable) the combination of the two still seems to be a very attractively priced round coverage.

sadly so far i have not come across a better solution to overcome lifetime limit issues and fee issues i.e. premiums that are out of reach of the insured. anyone has a better solution besides going for an international insurance?

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Added on November 20, 2009, 2:04 pmquick update: william russel has an office in malaysia.

http://www.william-russell.com/individuals...ntial/benefits/

this plan might be a good idea too as the limits that apply to local policies dont apply here.

if you choose this policy as a backup with a 2,500 US$ deductable you can insure a 33 yr old for around 50 US$ per month with a 200,000 US$ annual limit. that would be pretty good. will check what allianz offers these days.

This post has been edited by PJusa: Nov 20 2009, 02:04 PM

yeah too bad about william russel. but it seems allianzworldwidecare is available. at least i managed to a get an offer just fine. they have a pretty high end cover even on the lower plans and malaysia apparently enjoys some discount on the premium.

basic plan only around RM 400 per month. and this "Classic Individual" covers 1.25 million euros per year medical costs p.a. without any lifetime limit - take a look:

http://www.allianzworldwidecare.com/compar...duals?choice=en

annual premium for age 33 is €1,025.00 = RM 5000 = 416 p.m.

the optional outpatient is way too costly but the core plan is good. but hold your breath: premium at age 70 is €4,617 p.a.= 23k. if you compare this with local insurances that aint that bad considering the cover you get.

too bad they dont publish rates beyond 70, the support told me they cover until you die if you so wish but could not advise on premium due.

maybe one should ask them to offer a group plan for malaysia (lowyat medical plan ) to get extra discount....

well what i like is the cover .... RM 5,000,000 is more than enough for any kind of hospitalisation that i can think. also no limit of number of days. i am not entirely sure if can afford or not but i got in touch with them nonetheless to make an offer for my family. hopefully some family discount can be given. since the plan is core only i would still need a local top up for dialysis - that seems to be not covered. waiting for reply from then on that.

you save if you buy young if you choose a policy with guaranteed renewal w/o loading or exclusions. that way you get less than 100% but still pay the old premium whereas as a new customer you have to fork out extra or cant get cover at all.

it's not about premium guarantee. it's about ensuring you wont face a loading based on your personal claims. this will be the case with a number of general H&S plans and it's a good thing. it takes in a way into consideration that you joined in good health (low risk) and paid until now already if you wish to look at it this way

kurnia only no loading and guaranteed renewal until 65. thereafter subject to their decision and then you need to take their senior policy anyway. so it allows them many times to impose loading or exclusions when you really need insurance that takes you no matter what. useless if you ask me. also lifetime limit is very low in relation to annual limit (3x only).

guaranteed renewal is not the same as guaranteed premium. guaranteed renewal means you can choose to renew but the company cant kick you out, impose individual exclusions or loadings. kurnia premium offers just that.

with respect to CI : every CI cover is a "burn" policy. its just a matter of packaging. a pure CI can be much much cheaper if that is all you want to cover. 50k cover should only cost you around 120 (either AIA or Pacific) if you buy a pure CI from their general insurance branch at age 34. so u you got a bad quote. didnt see 536 in AIA premium shedule for 50k at all. must be some other plan and not the plain vanilla CI you asked for.

numbertwo,

i feel the same way. the kurnia policy is not very attractive at all.

ozak,

to cover for unforseen sickness of course. also to lock in the good health status for future renewals. it's the best investment in your health (maintenance) you can make. cancer can occur without pretty much anything you can do about it. accident may cause you to require dialysis - so many things out of your hands... that is why insurance is good - you spread the risk among many and only pay the average damage ++ for sure instead of risking to face a major damage.

rakyat,

the premium increases per age band are not a problem. you need to look at average premium from today until end of the policy. that's the number that counts. also if you select a decent policy you will not have any surprise loadings. any policy that reserves the right to load based on individual claims experience is not worth the paper its printed on.

if you are young for this reason and others mentioned before you should get a _good_ general insurance H&S plan and lock in. life will always cost you significantly more.

but i do agree that amongst the offers for life term or whole life are the only halfways acceptable policies. the others are mainly eye candy (at a premium) or risk shifting towards the policy owner and in general a waste of your money.

if you dont want to finance the agent, go direct with general insurance. the discount is 15% for health, 25% for PA. that savings can be used to buy higher cover or be enjoyed as extra savings for a rainy day.

the policy can be found here: www.axa.com.my/wordings/PW_SCOptimum.pdf

clause 7: "The Policyholder has the option to choose a Deductible in return for a reduction of premium. The Deductible shall be deducted from the eligible medical expenses, per Insured Person per Policy Year."

so you file all expenses with them, once they exceed 15k in total, AXA pays. the rest will not be paid. you may claim those payments from a second insurance company. so in other words, number one is correct. 15k will however not be deducted from your annual limit.

cenkudu,

i dont have a deductable on the axa policy but yes this is the way i would do it.you will need a copy of the bill to claim from other insurance though. alternatively you can also substantiate your axa claim with copies of bills showing you paid 15k by other means.

jutamind,

actually you can solve the dilemma with a little outside the box thinking:

1. you should keep the current policy (even though i dont know the details of the plan) due to the time and money sunken - even though i generally regard investment linked policies as bad choices. you are locked in and you cant cancel the policy due to the loading otherwise experienced.

2. i take it you have identified the current H&S cover to be inadequarte. buy a general insurance policy and see if you can get it without loading if you exclude hypertension. this is risky however worth a shot since your current cover will take care of such issues to some extent. you might also want to consider a loading since general insurance H&S is a lot cheaper. you should be able to afford the additional costs if you are considering an upgrade with an investment linked policy. you may even choose a GI plan with a deductable to effectively upgrade your current cover. most good plans offer hefty discounts for a deductable of 5-20k p.a. or per disability.

hope this helps

jutamind,

GI will generally be the same in terms of claims and all. if you have a guaranteed renewal clause the risk of loosing cover is pretty much the same with GI and Life. personally i never had any issues making claims in the past but this might just be me - i can be very very pushy and usually get in touch directly with the person in charge as i usually dont use any agents if i can avoid them.

Gen-X,

you might find that a GI H&S cover would serve you better as it would be easier to switch within plans and insurance company as compared to IL-Life policies. your problem is one of my main grouses with H&S from Life Insurers. of course with GI you should get a high (the highest actually) cover in the beginning. downgrade is always easier and higher cover early on is cheaper also than with life insurers

nope and i am really quite certain that there is no difference - the hospital wont care where the money comes from. if you choose a big reputable company like allianz, axa, etc. there should really be no problems whatsoever. many of them have a large number of panel hospitals too.

cenkudu,

yes they are. i have this from TM directly.

mfitri77,

i dont get what you try to say at all. there are numerous GI policies available that offer a guaranteed renewal without loading on personal claims experience meaning they cannot simply refuse the insured if the insured chooses to continue the cover nor can a loading be imposed. plans that dont offer this feature are - pardon me for saying so - worthless paper only and dont deserve to be called insurances.

cenkudu,

only on portfolio basis i.e. no individual loading or exclusion.

btw: found a cover from lighthouse.asia yesterday that by far exceeds all other medical plans. price is around 1,2k US$ p.a. will attach the plan here.

sorry, cant get the stupid attachment to accept the PDF. here is the link: http://www.joy-stay.com/files/InsurancePla...at_Benefits.pdf

This post has been edited by PJusa: Dec 9 2009, 12:49 PM

rakyat,

thanks you saved me a lot of typing

also if all the points mentioned by mfitri77 would actually be entirely correct, they would also apply to life.

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Added on December 9, 2009, 12:54 pmcenkudu,

10k applies for every one disability - since cancer is a complex sickness you will usually already have paid more than 10k in treatment before you go for outpatient. same applies for dialysis but you can always double check with them. they will be more than happy to send you a copy of the policy too if you ask for it.

This post has been edited by PJusa: Dec 9 2009, 12:54 PM

this sounds feasable. you are right about beeing carefull what plan you choose. there might be underwriting issue if you choose to waive the deductable later i think. better double check with AXA. if you can afford it, better not use the deductable or choose a lower one. also make sure company benefits actually equal AXAs - most times they dont.

my wife actually has your exact same setup left the deductable. we looked at the company plan benefits and they are really basic. only things worthwhile are the annual checkups and dentals we enjoy

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Added on December 11, 2009, 9:57 ammy personal experience with them directly is OK. the call centre ppl are sometimes useless but if you are pushy that wont be an issue. if you have a clear cut case there wont be any issues anyway.

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Added on December 11, 2009, 9:59 amthe reason for TM is that AXAs cover for outpatient cancer and dialysis is too little. TM's purpose is a) burst and b) outpatient cancer and dialysis

CI is a lump sum - to match the cover you get from TM 1:1 you would need to pay a very hefty premium. i prefer to take the higher amount of potential cover for the lowest possible charge. but yes in general CI might be an alternative - but what if you suffer from both cancer and dialysis - CI wont pay for every occurance...

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Added on December 11, 2009, 10:01 amper disease - i.e. got specific cancer it's one disability

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Added on December 11, 2009, 1:20 pmmfitri77, i appreciate the discussion with you - and i do agree that there are some problems within the malaysian H&S system. and yes, the policy wording is the contract and nothing else. how else could it be? that is why everyone should always read, understand and ask questions pertaining the policy wording. get clarifications in writing too - they will then be treated as extensions to the contract if in doubt.


but i cannot help to wonder where the relevance in your examples lies. quite clearly the thumb case is attempted insurance fraud and furthermore is related to CI. what is true though is the importance of full disclosure of your medical history when it comes to H&S policies. fraud however should be combatted and its a good thing too since this will keep premiums lower. i dont want my insurance to hand out money like nobody's business. similar argument holds for the possible suicide. it's excluded - and the insurer has every right to argue if that is suspected to be the case. of course the other party can also argue. this is the natural cause of things. who would expect the insurer to just blindly pay?

your comparison between GI and ILP is simply wrong. ILP has the same portfolio withdrawal option so where is the benefit? they also can change the premium so no use. please name cases where portfolio withdrawal has been exercised in the way you describe by GI. i'd be interested to see them.

this is entirely not true. first of, healthcare for example in europe is mandatory. also insurers have to take everyone by law - no execptions, no loading - the whole of the insured will balance this out is the argument. please take a look for example at the german healthcare system. also note that policies are not bankrupted by doing so - this statement is completly unfounded. premiums however are adjusted. also the motor insurance statement has little relation to the issue we discuss - feel free to discuss motor insurance seperately. you cannot compare an insurance that is regulated by tariff but has "open-ended" claims with a tariff-free H&S insurance which furthermore has capping as to the amount you can actually claim. the latter is properly priced and enjoys real-life risk assesment.

and one last word to the high-risk issue: if we forcefully enjoy all malaysians in a single policy system like in europe, the numbers will provide ample of cushion to allow for everyone to enjoy great health benefits without excluding anyone at low premiums. the way the system works now is that the affluent (and usually healthy) ones can enjoy even good healthcare. i really wonder if the european approach would not be more beneficial and cheaper to the society especially if we dont allow for private insurance and only maybe private top-up. probably it would but that is a political question and most likely out of the scope of our attempt to find reasonable h&s cover at a decent price. and an ILP rider is most certainly never the best option.

This post has been edited by PJusa: Dec 11 2009, 01:26 PM

cenkudu,

in this case you should aim as high as possible - just to keep all options open. i did remember something like this but could not remember entirely how the waiver of underwriting would work.

i think in general AXA is a good choice as a H&S provider - they have a good reputation in europe and they do know what they are doing. also they are not a profit-oriented as other providers so this is an added benefit.

btw: i looked for non-profit insurance companies earlier cause i thought i did remember there are some private healthcare insurance companies that operate on non-profit basis. and they do exist: for example in germany a company called debeka offers private healthcare insurance while the company itself seems to be run on a "community basis" principle. in a nutshell their aim is to break even and that is that. i also found some notions that similar companies exist in france and other parts of europe. how absolutely wonderful - i want this here too!