How many of us here can accept truth. Truth that are inconvenient and may even be harmful. Tirokswiftlet had said that he is interested in truth above all else.

When presented with an incovenient truth many of us would try to demolish this truth. Truth is then made to appear false and our false beliefs that are comforting are rationalised to appear as truth.

Do we as a moral agent have the capacity to see our own deception and hypocrisy ? Each of us will have know the answer to this in the dark of night when we don't have to convince anyone but ourself.

What if I present an inconvenient truth to this group with objective studies, proper methodology and actually carried out, clearly and scientifically assessed ? Would I be villified and condemned like Harry ?

I have found the truth for 2 days now and I had witheld presenting it always mindful of what Buddha said when he was presented with such a dilemma. So from now on I will not defend the indefensible but instead hold my piece. I am doing this not because I am afraid of been misunderstood or been cursed. I had faced worst.

If the newsgroup I started took off, on my part I will not present it but I will not stop anyone else putting it in. The newsgroup had a lot of hits on the second day but hardly anyone responded. And if they do they did it in their original forum - mostly cursing and cussing 8-0.

The guideline is not only about the moving of swiftlets but a whole host of issues that will make the life of swiftlet farmers very difficult if we do not get it clarified. But instead we seem more interested in the high profile presentation of Harry vs the rest of the world and the hard work to do the research and sharing of experiences of what the guidelines are suggesting are wrong or ambiguous seem lost on most of us.

I will stay the course for a short while.

I am even more amused by your huffing and puffing over what you think to be the truth. Do not mistake what you think is the truth as the truth.

Just look at the smear campaign that is going on behind this swiftlet group and I am not referring to harry. This people were told a bunch of half-truths and lies and then the strange thing is that they were also given a SET OF BEHAVIOUR TO FOLLOW. And many just followed the script without really knowing who wrote the script and why it was written. Where is intelligence and wisdom to discern what is real and what is false when we could so easily accept the things that we hear ? Where is the space in our hearts and mind to try to understand ? We accept the words of others often because it is so much easier - we don't need to do any thinking or make any judgement as judgement is already made for us. This is how the mind works - the need to put things and people in need little pigeon-holes and packages so that the heart and mind is free of the burden to know and to understand.

When we do this we open ourselves up to manipulation by people who are less than honourable. When a devious and bad person you are bad than you know you have done the right thing.

I am not defending harry but his right to say his piece. I am not angry with the people spreading hate against him but angry with the way we tried to alienate and counter harry as a threat. If we are afraid of ideas and sought it necessary to destroy another because of the perceived threat , who will be next and what will be next ?

As a group facing collective karma, we deserve what we get...that's the simple truth of life.



This post has been edited by chiongguo: Feb 17 2009, 08:45 PM

Since I had appealed to Buddha's wisdom to guide me I would presume you are implying I was preaching. Of course Tirok did quote Buddha. Not that I know who you meant but let's not get personal and look at the issue directly if we are able to.

In order for you to make the judgement above you have to know more than just the teachings of buddha, which you claimed to have minimal knowledge of. You would need to know that what the person said was really wrong.

Let me give a simple example. I was in india for quite a few months. At the ashram that I stayed, the village nearby was very poor. So much so that they don't have food to feed their dogs. So the dogs mostly eat shit - human shit most of the time as cowdung had commercial value and often get collected very quickly. I mentioned this to a group of people when I came back and they thought it was impossible. Dogs just don't eat shit. So they thought I was bull-shitting.

Recently I saw my dogs eating goat shit on my farm. I asked my wife, who is from vietnam, if she had ever seen dogs eat shit. She said not goat shit but human shit.

Because of our shared experience I knew she was telling the truth. But to others who had no knowledge or similar experience would discount it as fabrication.

If there is no basic humility to have a simple acknowledgement that we ourselves could be wrong we will always think others are wrong. And of course that makes you happy. It is a strange reason for happiness but it does make us happy for all the wrong reason.

Just like the lynch mobbing that is going on here. The first victim of such lynch mobbing is decency and truth.

There are a few new interesting players in this group. They are nice, pleasant and cooperative for their own reason.


And what do you yourself, not only understand what he said, but really realised the truth contained within ?

When others quoted a simple quote you said they are preaching while you splashed an entire paragraph and think it is revelation.

So with your limited knowledge and understanding is this happiness of yours, running down anyone who disagrees with you, the flip side of your unhappiness. Are you so unhappy that you needed to railroad and rundown others ?

Buddha was asked what is delusion ? When you see a rope and think it is a snake. That's delusion. But this is not so dangerous. When you see a snake and think it is a rope, that's when you can be bitten over and over again without ever knowing it. The second part is not from Buddha but from me. You create karma, bitten by your own snake, and yet do not know it.

Isn't this an excuse for doing what is wrong ? Since we are not monks so therefore we don't have to follow what is decent and right. Such rationalisation is the clever snake that bites you on your tush.

I had chosen to hold my piece because the alternative is silly and unnecessary. Swiftlets had been reared in man-made houses for years on end without any problem. Why move them ? It will only cause unnecesary strains and stresses and definitely some death will take place. There is no reason for doing so. And it was for that reason that I had held my piece.
Let me assure you I am not lying about what I had said. So you go figure.

Please do not cast slurs and aspersions when you know little of what goes on in people's heart and mind. Least of all follow the script of people with less than noble intentions. Have a little space and understanding in your heart. Try it sometime it is really liberating.

Truth are often painful but it is ALWAYS liberating. As I had asked previously, how many of you can handle truth ?

This post has been edited by chiongguo: Feb 20 2009, 12:03 AM

Hah !!! How did you come to that conclusion ?

Hah !!!! How did you come to that conclusion ? Exactly what have I done or said in this group to cause you to form such a conclusion ? Or do you know something that I don't ?

ROTFLOL.....Try looking in the mirror and saying out loud that advice you just gave me.

Never thought of it that way. Are you so insecure to feel threatened and diminished just because I said I followed Buddha's advice ? Oh, btw. How did you come to that conclusion ?


Tickle!tickle!tickle......I was angry ?

I couldn't hold it anymore.....ROTFLOL....with both legs kicking in the air ....

You are hilarious, SiKay !


You need to do a reality check. So when you quoted Ajahn Chah, were you talking nonsense as well....even tried putting words into Ajahn's mouth.

When was I trying to teach you buddhism ? Oic, you felt diminished because I said I had appealed to someone's wisdom that I cherished ?


Oh no...not pissed off. Pissed on and you know jolly well who is doing it !!


I couldn't contain myself... I have do another episode of ...ROTFLOL...with 3 of my legs kicking in the air...

So you have been digging for dirt, hah ? I bet you think you have found a lot and even became over-excited with your discovery. I am just wandering who was the idiot who arranged for swiftlet shelter investors in kuantan to harass me. Is this how a person could help ? Character assassinate, malign, shout down and bully anyone into submission just so that you could have your way.


I believe the test of the pudding is in the eating. I challenge anyone to look at all the posts I had made here to prove what Sikay had said. And also do look at Sikay's post as well and see if he had offered any solution ???? Really I had tried looking. Most of the time he acts like the cheer-leader, loutish bully, character assassin and forum thug.


I wonder what gave you the impression that I was even teaching.

I had shared my views, offered opinions, sought counsel, explain when asked, support (not teach) what I had said with a bit of theory(for not all are technically inclined) etc. These are very common behaviour in an open forum.

What is not common is your incessant need to run down anyone and everyone who disagrees with you or with whom you felt a threat. It is also not common to have to shout so much.

It is not about whether I think I am right but more importantly that IT IS RIGHT.

Your opinion or my opinion of what is right is not important. A million could say that the truth is a lie, it does not change the truth. Similarly a million could say that a lie is the truth, it still doesn't make it the truth.

I have no doubt that you are smart. If I had students like you my teaching career would have been so much more exciting.

There is a thin line between been smart and devious. If you think you could harass and destroy my reputation in my real life as you and your goon squad had done to harry you will be very much mistaken. Someone more powerful and influential had already done it....so there is actually very little left 8-).



And what is the main issue, Sikay ?

Yes, Herr General , we will not waste time on this guy 8-)



This post has been edited by chiongguo: Feb 23 2009, 08:57 AM

It is not a matter of tit for tat but a matter of basic principle. When you disagree with someone you try to destroy his idea and not the person. When harry presented thoughts and positions that the group felt threatened the group organised itself to destroy the man. When I pointed out that this shouldn't be the way forward I became the new target of attack. When I found researches that supported a position that the group again found threatened I became the new threat and had to be destroyed. I had presented what I found only after 2 days of finding it because I knew what will surely ensue. I made the reveleation so that the group could find mitigating arguments and reason.

Even now I got PM suggesting that I am attacking CK because of some vindictive streak in me but all could see that CK had been quite active and bilious in his attack of me - all the side swipes and backstabbing were accepted. And if you had looked at my responses it had really been very mild. So CK could do no wrong and I am always wrong.

Again look at how "H and his gang" were excluded as friends of swiftlet. Who put that notion in your head that H is some demon to be condemned and burned at the cross ?

I do not know about his ethics or his business and I have no reason to accept one way or another. I have seen how people could be demonised only to find later that much of it came from the hatred of others.

No one is trying to change anyone's mind. It is about putting your thoughts, your arguments, your facts, your experiences etc. with the hope that something coherent and benefitial for the industry could come out of it. It is not about trying to hang someone by his balls or threatened his family because he said something we disagree with. And in the person's real life some forummers here even organised posse to try to destroy the person.

I also received a PM to ask me to be relax. You decide if my responses had been measured and appropriate as compared with what was hurled at me.

This is what is called group think - the group can never be wrong. Remember you replied to my message once that you said that you people could think ? No one question your ability to think. All of us could think but what do we think with ? That is what separates the outcome of thoughts. If the content of our thoughts are filled with hatred, contempt, facts that others had fabricated and placed there, accusations etc. then the result of thinking with such content will be more of the same.


Let not the height of unreason dictate and determine the direction of the industry.

This post has been edited by chiongguo: Feb 23 2009, 11:36 PM

Now this is going to incurr a lot of behind the scene tsk!tsk!

Why is DL doing the job of the government ? The swiftlet shelter provider, as a group, could make its position clear and even critique the guideline but it should refrained from doing the job of the government. The consequences down the road can be unpredictable and the government will wash its hand of the consequences on the ground. What do we do then ? Blame DL ?

How could we know that what DL, on his own, could produce a document that will best serve the interests of the swiftlet community in particular and the larger community in general ?

Please understand that this is NOT ABOUT DL. It is about the process of discourse to come up with something that best represents the collective wishes, hopes and consciousness of a group of people. If it is done openly and collectively, as some people here had called for, there is then ownership and responsibility. Why place all the burden on one man ? And yes he is a man with all the fallibility of being one. As I had said before even the best minds constantly subjected their researches, ideas and thoughts for others to examine. The simple reason is that the mind is blind.

I suspect that many of us are not willing to make their views known and hope that DL will do what we ourselves should have done.

This is not a contest of ego and I have no interests in stealing any thunder from him or anyone - as circulated by some.

Now, who died and made you god ? Don't you see the arrogance of what you have just said ? You rationalise and justify lynch mobbing and even argued that the rape victim deserves been raped because of her own doing.

How many of us here had quoted or cited something outside the swiftlet industry ? Or related stories that don't seem relevant to the forum ?

And would you accept that character assassination is NOT part of SWIFTLET FARMING ?

Sheez....

This is a catch-22 situation. Ask the perhilitan guy if breeding of swiftlets could be done ?

At the moment it can't as protected species eggs and babies cannot be kept or transported. Remove this restriction then swiftlets quickly become a domesticated specie.

This post has been edited by chiongguo: Dec 19 2009, 02:37 PM

Breeding is the process of getting the male and female to mate.
-- This may be a bit difficult

Propagating is the process of getting the eggs to hatch into baby swiftlet.
-- This is what is being done

Rearing is the process of keeping the birds, feeding it and allow it to mature to produce the birdnests.
-- the babies should be kept alive until it can be independent.

Survival rate of propagating and rearing of young is 50% according to an indonesian book.

My view is that propagating and rearing of the young should be allowed. But swiftlets should be free to fly out to source for its own food. In indonesia they rear the swiftlets by feeding it within the building.

I am considering a joint venture with a malay on malay reserved land. What are the things I need to look out for ? Can such jv be perpetual ?

Will build a small bh in the beginning i.e. about 20 x 60 , 2 storey building. When there are nests it will be extended.

Any pointers would be appreciated. Thank you.



This post has been edited by chiongguo: Jan 12 2010, 05:11 PM

To bust cartel-like monopolistic price structure set up regional cooperatives. Cooperatives with the capacity to buffer up supply in time of excesses and stock release during time of shortages. BH owner who are not consultant and developer are in the best position to head and lead such cooperatives. Interest groups could also be setup within such cooperatives - those who are interested in developing their skills and understanding. This is to prevent being con by consultant and developers.

Market analysis could and should be done regularly. Open trading could also be done. Free-flow of pricing information will prevent monopolistic manipulation.

In the charter of association perhaps it could be added that no developer and no consultant should be allowed to be elected as executive member of the cooperative. Of course they could do it through proxy but hopefully there are enough BH owner to counter such proxy representation.

This post has been edited by chiongguo: Jan 13 2010, 09:01 PM

Thanks Coolandy.

Yes, that's the arrangement. I was thinking of starting small i.e. 20' x 50' , 2 storey high. But the foundation slab stretch to 100'. And expansion will be from sale of birdnests.

My concern is really what happen when the land owner passes on. Will the JV still hold up under the syariah law ? Can JV be made under the syariah law ? Perhaps folks from GEMM could provide input. I know of other malays with land but do not have the capacity to develop it. Everyday they see swiftlets flying through their land in great abundance and is helpless to benefit from the rahmat from God.

No WW, this had been going on for umpteen years, at least in kuantan. Kuantan won some "silly award" and they became euphoric and over-zealous.

Since PR won the parliament and "made some noises" in the early days the Town Council kept looking over its shoulders. This I was told and some seem happy with the "new" and now not so new enthusiasm to please.

Cooperations have very different article of association. Cooperations can go into business or economic activities on behalf of the members. For this reason it can buffer and release stock to regulate price. If there were enough members no one without sufficient resources would dare to mess with the equitable price structure.

It can go into upstream activities such as cleaning of birdnest, products using birdnest etc.

Developers and consultants are not excluded as members only from being in the management committee.

In all the schemes and scams that is going on in the industry cooperatives can be a center of sanity and fair play.

The day to day running is by professional managers while all policies, programs and directives came from the management committee - which has to be elected and/or appointed.


Thanks for the link.

This formula is not fair and equitable. The cost of something is not the same as the value of that thing. The cost of a chip may just be RM50/= but it can be sold for a few hundred RMs. Similarly a shophouse + land could be acquired and built for RM100K but it could be sold for a cool million just because it is on some prestige location.

Agriculture land tended to be cheap and the cost of building is often inflated by the consultant or developer. The inflated cost is not 30 or 40 % but 200 to 300% of the actual cost.

When a person wishes to sell his business he would total up the assets, take away the liabilities and then add in a premium based on turn-over and profit. This premium can even be more than the cost of the business.

To me a more fair formula in calculating share holding is based on the cost of the land + cost of the building + the earning potential of the BH. As an example :

Cost of land : RM 50K
Cost of building a 2000 sq feet BH : RM72k (for building) + RM20k (for sound system/security etc.).
( I use RM 36 / sq foot as it was an actual quote I got. It was at a time when cement was at its highest and so was steel. The developer even threw in the meranti as he said he was the distributor and could give the planks at cost).

Number of Bird nest at saturation point : 2000 x 2 = 4000.
Assuming 80% saturation : 4000 * 0.8 = 3200 Bird nest.

3200 bird nest ringgit equivalet = 25 kg x 3000 = 75000.
(guesstimate - stand corrected - assuming 128 BN to 1 kg)

Land owner value = 50000 + 37500 = RM 87500
BH owner value = 92000 + 37500 = RM 129500

Total : RM 217000

Land owner share holding = 87500/217000 * 100 = 40%
BH owner share holding = 60%

If the land is along the flight path or feeding ground it should command a higher premium. This is subjective but it could be open for discussion and negotiation.

Lost of income as a way to measure value is not feasible. Useability as a criteria is more realistic.

Recently someone bought a piece of land for RM100K per acre near my farm and I asked him why he was willing to pay so much for it. He said in business it is not the price that matters the most but usefulness. If something that is useful and he has use for it than he doesn't mind paying way above what the land is worth. The usefulness of the land was that the birds were playing and flying pass the piece of land and the potential of attracting birds into his BH is great.

Another similar piece of land nearer to town is worthless to him eventhough the land cost there had skyrocketed in recent days. Since it was worthless to him he won't pay a premium for it.

Likewise why are buildings with major anchor tenants command a much higher rental ? The economic principle is the same. Land cost is not the same as the value of the land.

Joint venture agreement can always include a clause to make it transferrable. If the BH doesn't work out then the Bh developer could sell his equity.

---

Added on January 16, 2010, 10:44 pm There is no rationale in making such risk weighted share holding.

The BH developer could transfer his equity to the land owner or to a third party. It is not a total lost.
If the JV is written in such a way that the land owner can also transfer his equity without transfering the land then the risk would be equally shared. There is also a clause that prohibit the sale of the land without selling the equity in the JV as well. This basically meant that the BH and the land are inextricably linked like siamese twin.



This post has been edited by chiongguo: Jan 16 2010, 10:44 PM

On JV with malay on malay reserved land, I spoke at length with a malay lawyer who is well-versed in syariah and civil law. The conclusion after the long conversation was that it is not advisable and froth with uncertainties and pitfalls.

This is a violation of our basic rights. Any law that violates the constitution is null and void.

Entering any private land or building by enforcement agencies without a court order will turn us into a dictatorial country.

---

Added on February 23, 2010, 8:20 amThis new law will kill off the industry. Is there no public hearing or any parliamentarians sympathetic to the cause ?



This post has been edited by chiongguo: Feb 23 2010, 08:20 AM

Using EM and O3 together is basically an oxy-moronic approach. EM uses microbes to decompose so that toxic & nauseous gases would not be produced. O3 kills microbes to prevent decomposition. Human's attempt at creating sterile environment had always created more harm than good.

Between the two EM is better - Work with nature !!

This post has been edited by chiongguo: Feb 23 2010, 08:38 PM