The following has been re-opened by moderator, let's please have a healthy and intelligent discussion, based on proven facts and current practices.

http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/1397059

It is important to all swiftlet house owners especially in Georgetown as right now the state govt. is working on the idea of following Sabah, that is to ban all swiftlet houses in Georgetown.

Let us not criticise each other but to discus all the pros and cons of having swiftlet houses in Georgetown and other urban areas.

Be reminded that we urgently need a win win situation for everyone, residents, swiftlet house owners and everyone in urban areas.

If we come to a solution, I'm sure local council will approve.

This thread will be subject specific so please do not discus anything else but the subject, nothing irrelevant or it might confuse matters.

Thank You.

Tuckfook.

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Added on April 21, 2010, 6:29 pm[quote=Jo Yeo,Apr 21 2010, 01:01 PM]
Nothing new. Placing Polystrene boards both inside and outside of the BH and plaster
over them nicely. The effect achieved inside a stylofoam box is the rationale.

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Added on April 21, 2010, 1:13 pm

Please don't do that, it'll trap the moisture and keep everything wet to touch. Wood will rot.

Plan on allowing an equilibrium of moisture between inner and outer walls with proper ventilation to keep the humidity just right.

Trapped heat is even worse !

Think equilibrium with proper thickness and right materials like type of bricks and plaster.



This post has been edited by tuckfook: Apr 21 2010, 06:29 PM

[quote=West Wing,Apr 22 2010, 08:09 AM]
[quote=Jo Yeo,Apr 18 2010, 09:03 PM]
WW & Fellow Enthusiasts,

I seek your earnest comments on the DK design.

Why his design is good for agriculture land is that if you look at the drop from the entrance, it is almost impossible for any thief to attend to enter from the entrance hole unlike most of the formal design.
So, you have secure the roof top entrance which most thieves like to enter BH as most of BHs @ Agri secure their doors so well with alarms and multi-metal doors with locks bigger than my fists .....better the prison cell.
Any comment appreciated

[/quote]

If someone wants dearly to enter into any BH it will be relatively easy. There is no unbreakable BH. Locks, doors, walls etc are all easy to overcome. Show me a design and I'll show you a way of breaking through.

Thieves like to go through from the top because it is the easiest. If they can get up, they can get in and down no problems.

If the BH is built as above with a 10ft. shaft, I doubt if anyone will want to break into it for at least 5 years if not more. It is simply not conducive to the birds, no in an agri. area anyway.

Since you have the advantage of planning for the building/structure why not go maximum size on the roving area. It is well proven that the bigger the roving area is the faster the birds start visiting the lower floors and hopefully stay. Why minimise your chances? Save money on the roving room and end up being part of the 70% statistic!

Styrofoam of 3" or more is used to insulate the roof so that the topmost slab, which is the ceiling of the nesting room, will not heat up. Direct sunlight all day is liable to heat the concrete to 120 deg. C. or more.

The roving room roof slab should not be insulated to promote a gradual change of tempt. between the inside and outside as well as create convection sucking humid air up from floors below. Sucks up the smell as well so the birds visiting are greeted with the smell of an occupied BH.

Side walls are best not insulated with styrofoam as it also prevents moisture from permeating the walls. Moisture permeating the walls actually cools the walls down when it dries up on the outside. The thickness of the wall controls the rate of cooling or heating up. low tempt. fired clay bricks are good for this purpose. The plaster also plays a part, it must be plaster consisting of portland cement and lime(30%) which makes it more porous to moisture.

It you want to prevent heat from going in and the cool air from going out, as in an air conditioned room or freezer etc. then by all means styrofoam all around.

You'll find successful designs in Dr. Chris' forum.

Still no action from Georgetown of NoSwiftletHousesinGeorgetown blog. Have they chickened out

Frankly, jokes aside, a discussion will be healthy. I will try my best to get the authorities and associations involved but we must have activity from the complainants in the first place.

The Oxy acetylene torch is a very slow way of cutting through steel and limited to about 2" of steel.

Nowadays, a simpler DIY cutter but has capabilities of cutting through much thicker steel is the thermic lance. Consisting of iron tube with wire wool and and an oxygen supply. A car battery is used to start to off. Commercial cutters would use a carbon or tungsten cutting head with a welding generator. A cheaply available cutter would be a plasma cutter but has limited thickness capabilities, about 10mm. The plasma cutter will also cut through non ferrous metals like bronze, as well as stainless steel.

A sandwich construction of steel + aluminium + steel is usually used to deter cutting as it tends to explod in the cutter's face. Steel melts and is oxidise when cut with the above methods. As this is done a great amount of heat is produced and melts the aluminium to boiling point. When the steel face is penetrated, molten aluminium spurts out under great pressure, this aluminium ignites with the oxygen from the cutting torch and air around which shoots out towards the operator and burns him/her very badly as the fire cannot be put out easily.

Plywood sandwich would be a waste of time. Concrete makes the cutting much slower.

Recent break ins have been done with a portable jackhammer and straight through the wall. An excavator has also been used. 6" concrete wall in a matter of minutes with the brc cut using large wire cutters. 9" brick wall in much less time.

Sheet metal placed inside the wall was just pushed down by the excavator.

A small hydraulic jack will open any lock, hinge, latch etc. as used by the fire rescue services.

Co-operate with all your nearby BH owners and hire an armed guard/security company for 24hr. protection. Wire up all alarms to notify Security firm as well as nearest Police stn. Donate generously to Police funds.

Pay a reward of cash Rm5000 for thieves caught and beaten up.

When does a bird's nest CEASE to be a bird's nest ?

The act is aimed at protecting ALL species of birds from being endangered from their breeding cycle being upset, which is fair enough.

At one time, when hunting licenses for deer was still being issued, it specified that no young below a certain size, judged from the emergence of horns, could be taken. Females with young or pregnant could not be taken. Of course that is history, no hunting permits have been given for deer in recent years.

Similarly, young wild boar, ie with stripes can NOT be taken. It is not easy to identify pregnant wild boars.....they are all fat at the belly !

This is specific for large mammals as it can be visually confirmed in which state the animal is in.

Back to birds, most birds abandon their nests after the young ones fly away and in the case of birds other than EBN swiftlets, grass and twigs will often rot and disintegrate.
BTW you can get fined for taking weaver bird's nest as souvenirs, these are the bottled shaped nests we find so often used for decoration.

In the wild, EBN will end up consumed by fungus, insects etc. when they birds have fledged, so it is a natural process.

Whilst we know from house swiftlets that lazy birds will reuse any abandoned nest left unattended, to the extent that they will also lay in man made imitation nests.

IMHO, From a point of law, a nest ceases to be a nest once it has been abandoned. If the converse were to be true, fallen nests of other birds, eg twigs, grass would be illegal to clean up !

The law is not specific to allow PERHILITAN to prosecute easily but all it takes is someone willing to fight in court (at great expense ) and it will become very difficult for PERHILITAN.

By virtue of the fact that PERHILITAN issues licenses and permits for the harvesting of EBN wild or otherwise, confirms the above.

PERHILITAN should be encouraged to be specific so as to avoid being ridiculed and possibly sued.

This is also good for the EBN industry as it will discourage the taking of nests of which the birds have not fledged. These 'virgin' nests are easy to identify.

Lawyers not in the business of EBN often need some directions to be firmiliar with each subject.

I am not a lawyer, just my 2cents worth.

FIRST SCHEDULE
[section 3]
PROTECTED WILDLIFE
Interpretation of the First Schedule
1. Species included in this Schedule are referred to—
(a) by the name of the species; or
(b) as being all of the species included in a higher taxon or designated
part thereof.
2. The abbreviation “spp.” is used to denote all species of a higher taxon.
3. Other references to taxa higher than species are for the purposes of
information or classification only. The common names included after the
scientific names of families are for reference only. They are intended to indicate
the species within the family concerned that are included in this Schedule. In
most cases this is not all of the species within the family.
4. Where there is conflict between a scientific term and a common term in
the use of the name of any species in this Schedule, the scientific term shall
prevail......

CLASS AVES (BIRDS)
Anatidae
(Duck, geese, swans)
Anas bernieri Bernier’s Teal
Anas formosa Baikal Teal
Branta ruficollis Red-breasted Goose
Cairina moschata Muscovy Duck
Coscoroba coscoroba Coscoroba Swan
Cygnus melanocoryphus Black-necked Swan
Dendrocygna arborea Black-billed Wood-Duck
Dendrocygna autumnalis Black-bellied Whistling
Duck
Oxyura leucocephala White-headed Duck
Sarkidiornis melanotos Comb Duck
Apodidae
(Typical swifts)
Collocalia esculenta Glossy Swiftlet[U]

The above extract shows that it is clear that all Apodidae, all Collocalia, are protected. There is no distinct exemption for C. Fuciphagus.

It is like saying Protected humans are Fukkiens, Surname Tan. listed example. Tan Ah Beng. (Note that there is no mention of Tan Ah Kow .)
Whereas we want to exploit/make use of Tan Ah Kow. For sure the authorities insist that Tan Ah Kow is NOT on the list !

Of course Tan Ah Kow is not on the list BUT all Tan is on the list which includes Tan Ah Kow.

We must seek that C. Fuciphagus and A. Fuciphagus or any sub species known generally as the "Edible White Nest House Swiftlet - as suggested, C. Domesticus, Cranbrook" be clearly exempted/excluded from the wildlife protection Bill 2010.

The old bill that the 2010 will replace used to list specifically each protected species and sub species. In this 2010 bill the whole family is listed.

This post has been edited by tuckfook: May 8 2010, 05:26 PM

There must be a clear distinction between nests of cave swiftlets and those of house swiftlets.

Which is why, AF, CF or C/A Domesticus, aka edible white nest house swiftlet must be excluded/exempted from protection. Reasons are obvious as they need no protection as the numbers are increasing.

The Cave swiftlets can remain on the protected list and therefore their nests, which will then require the relevant licenses and permits.

Edible white nests from house swiftlets will the come under the purview of Veterinari. Which, I understand, was the initial plan. This will then be considered Agriculture, subject to all the controls of MOA.

Life for the swiftlet farmer may not be any different under either departments, matter of paying all the necessary permits and fulfilling all the conditions. Veterinari's conditions may infact be more difficult to maintain.

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Added on May 8, 2010, 11:18 pm

We should lobby for birds' nest be qualified as
© collect nests of protected or totally protected birds;
Otherwise with this wide definition doing anything to any nest will breach the law.

The Bill relates to the protection of Wildlife and is divided into 2 levels, being "totally protected" and "protected" hence all others will be unprotected ie. irrelevant to this Bill.

My understanding is then, Bird's nest refers to nests of all the protected species only. Unprotected species will be out of context.

Again if a nest is no longer being used to hatch eggs, protect fledglings etc. etc. then it should no longer be considered a nest to warrant protection. It has been discarded by the birds, no longer in use ! It was a nest !





This post has been edited by tuckfook: May 8 2010, 11:18 PM