Heh that's what I've been wondering- how Fischer's limbo has everything Cobb built in HIS limbo. It could be because they're all connected anyway, from the device on the airplane, but I like the idea that everyone, even inside deep layers of dreams, can have their own individual dreams. But anyway, I think they got into Fischer's limbo by connecting the device to his dead body in the snowy mountains lair and entering into his limbo from there. From my understanding, if you die in a dream heavily sedated, you go into limbo and you will NOT realize it isn't reality down there, so it wont cross you mind to shoot yourself so you can get back up there, as you would already think this is reality. But if you connect the device to someone who has gone into limbo, and go into his limbo, you're well aware it's not reality. That's how Cobb and Adriandne saved Fischer.

It also explains why Cobb looked so confused when he met old Saito. Both of them were in their own limbo and accepted what was in front them as reality. Somehow something (in my opinion, the Cobb's totem, but I'm not sure) reminded Saito that he isn't living in reality, and by reminding Cobb about the promise to allow him to return to the states, Cobb is reminded that he has children waiting for him and this cant be reality as well. They both get out of limbo (dont know how, by killing themselves I suppose) and wake up on the plane.

I need to watch it again, because I think my interpretation is flimsy. And I dont even wanan go into the whole the-end-is-a-dream debate before I get all the details right.

If one dies in limbo, does he wake up in the preceding dream world or reality? My memory is real fuzzy on this, but Cobb killed Fishcer in Fischer's limbo right? And that made him wake up on the icy mountains dream level, in which he then confronted his father. So dying in limbo should only wake you up one level up, right?

OK, so in the end, when both Saito and Cobb decide to leave limbo, they end up, respectively, at the snow mountains lair (now in rubbles) and the van underwater. At this point, if they killed themselves again, what makes them so sure they wouldn't end up in limbo again? How dies it work out? Was the sedation running out? I dont think the movie really explains how to get out of limbo.

How did the other members get out of the dream? By the Kick, right? So a Kick would definitely... kick you out of a dream, while death... will put you in limbo. Am I getting this right? What happens if you give a Kick to someone who is in limbo? Does that wake them up? I suppose not, or the other members would have just done it on the plane to revive Cobb and Saito.

One answer leads to more questions.

This post has been edited by QuickFire: Jul 17 2010, 05:13 PM

Just came back from watching it again. Having known what to expect, I liked it a lot, but I think it's far from a masterpiece. There are some strikingly original ideas in the film. There are multiple interpretations, all of which provide a good debate. You might say the whole thing was real, from start to end. Or you could say the ending wasn't real. Or, it could be he never really woke up after testing the strong sedatives in Yusof's dream-addict centre (remember, he didn't manag to spin his totem upon "exiting" his dream. Of course, this particular interpretation is the most unsatisfying one). Heck, the whole thing from start to end could all be a dream, and Mal did actually wake up by jumping off the window. It's really good.

That being said, I think this was also a missed opportunity. Having less info to process while watching this time around, I was struck by how a lot of the film was so uninspired visually. We're talking about dreams here, and the only times when we see how imaginative the mind can be, how utterly weird dreams can be, are in the early stages of the film when we see Paris folding onto itself and bridges being erected magically, all of which happen when Cobb is teaching Ariandne about the dream world. When it comes to actual dreams, it can look very pedestrian, shifting gravity notwithstanding. Take the snow mountains for example, was there anything in there, anything at all that didn't look like it was taken from a standard action blockbuster? Anything that says this is a film about dreams where rules are bent? Anything that was even a little bit different? All we get there are endless scenes of Eames arming and planting explosives everywhere while taking down generic henchmen in the most unimaginative of ways. How exciting. This film will never be a masterpiece because of this entire sequence. In fact, the whole action portion was unnecessary, and serves nothing to the story. I can understand why they are included though. One word: padding. This being the third dreem level, time is even slower, and they need to show the characters doing something to fill up the time. As I said, padding. And a woefully realized one at that. The film has great ideas, but some of them are executed in a very plain manner. Ironic, really.

In the end, I think the concept and ideas really make this film. I won't hesitate recommending it, by all means go see it, but a former forummer here (kobe and makekeke will know who I'm talking about ) has repeatedly said, Nolan should stick to writing and producing duties, and leave the directing to someone else. I never really believe that, but this film did make me take that notion more seriously.

P/S: I still find it hard to grasp the concept of limbo. I now think Cobb and Mal, while exploring the dream world together, never actually dropped into limbo, but rather lapsed into it. In fact, Cobb didn't for once think the dream was real. Only Mal was convinced, over a long period of time, that the dream was reality. In essence, she slowly slipped into a limbo state of mind. I don't think they tried killing themselves and thus going into limbo. This begs another question, since heavy sedatives were used, why didn't killing himself on the train tracks send Cobb into limbo? Someone more knowing please answer, or I'm going to start thinking several concepts in the film are simply too ambiguous to be considered anything more than vague concepts.

This post has been edited by QuickFire: Jul 18 2010, 06:10 PM

Pretty sure they were heavily sedated, I think it was mentioned. Anyway, didn't they say they were going into multiple levels of dreams? That would necessitate the use of heavy sedatives. And I dont think... you answered my question.

Well if they did explore multiple levels, here's what I think. Many levels into the dream world, time became extremely slow. In the last dream level they dared to venture in, they basically spent 50 years there, aged, Mal went into a limbo state of mind, Cobb kept his sanity, decided it was enough, and killed themselves. Note that this particular suicide was not shown in the film. They then traversed across the preceding levels, killing themselves in each of them so they could go one level up. Cobb kept count of the number of levels they were in. The suicide on the tracks we see in the film happens when they reach the first level, thus explaining why they were still young when they lay on the tracks. They both wake up in the real world, but Mal, infected by Cobb's inception, refuses to believe this is reality, instead believing she will (always) need to go one more level up to reach reality.

Still, this does not answer the question of why Cobb didn't go into limbo while killing himself under sedatives.

Good to know I'm not the only one who has something less than positive to say about the film. Although I dont know anything about "dark knight directors".

Damn, four times already? Two's enough for me, until the DVD/bluray comes out.

Nolan's ideas are very well executed on the plot level, but on every other level, and especially the visual, I can't say I was very impressed. The best sci-fi films have never been obsessed with plot. 2001: ASO moved so slowly and basically had no coherent plot. Blade Runner and Gattaca, each having created a very distinct and memorable sci-fi world, were never infatuated with the plot, instead relying on characters and a human touch to make them truly great. The thing about plot is that after a while, you feel there is nothing more for you to take from. As a heist film, Inception is high concept and damn good, but I cant help wondering, with such lofty ideas, why settle for something less? The film needs something more to reach true sci-fi greatness.

But I dont want to give people the wrong idea now. Everyone, go watch Inception.

This post has been edited by QuickFire: Jul 18 2010, 07:19 PM

The question remains, why squander a terrific, original idea it on some heist film (albeit a never-before-seen heist film) when it could have achieved a place in sci-fi pantheon. Maybe squander is too strong a word, because the current end result is still a perfectly good movie. Funny you should mention characters, because 80% of the film is completely focused on its plot.

Yeah I agree but I let that one slide. Plus you gotta ask why is it that the security at the hotel so lax compared to the other levels.


Haha yeah I've thought of that... and that would make his escape totally based on luck, which on second thought, isn't too far-fetched actually.

This post has been edited by QuickFire: Jul 18 2010, 09:09 PM

Cobb said he didn't know the time effect that occurs in dreams within dreams, so it's unlikely he could tell when the time was up. Let's just leave it to luck for now.

Yeah but the security in level 1 was far quicker in response and far more liberal in applying lethal force. But as I said I let it slide,.

Nice tidbit: The entire last 40 minutes or so, from the van crashing into the barrier of the bridge to it plunging into the water, lasts only half a second on the plane.

This post has been edited by QuickFire: Jul 18 2010, 09:23 PM

1. & 2.
I think there was a dream device attached to both Cobb and Mal. That's the only way to share a dream. I also believe they used heavy sedatives. Cobb did say they were exploring deeper levels in the dream world.

Here's what I think. Many levels into the dream world, time became extremely slow. In the last dream level they dared to venture in, they basically spent 50 years there, aged, Mal went into a limbo state of mind, Cobb kept his sanity, decided it was enough, and killed themselves. Note that this particular suicide was not shown in the film. They then traversed across the preceding levels, killing themselves in each of them so they could go one level up. Cobb kept count of the number of levels they were in. The suicide on the tracks we see in the film happens when they reach the first level, thus explaining why they were still young when they lay on the tracks. They both wake up in the real world, but Mal, infected by Cobb's inception, refuses to believe this is reality, instead believing she will (always) need to go one more level up to reach reality.

3. True, Mal locked her totem in the safe so she could accept the dream as reality. Cobb took the totem and made it spin indefinitely. Presumably, when Mal opened the safe and saw the indefinite spin, she realized she was still in the dream world. This was Cobb's first inception.

4. When they died on the tracks, they woke up in reality. Mal constantly appears as a malevolent projection of Cobb because Cobb is haunted by his guilt of causing her death, and also because he misses her so much he simply cannot keep her out of his mind. Essentially this means his projection of Mal has become something out of his control. The various "levels of Mal" Ariadne secretly sneaks into are really just memories of Cobb together with Mal. He keeps these memories because this is how he gets to be together with her.

5. This question pertains to the concept of limbo, which I'm really not sure of. The film says Cobb was in limbo before, but as far as I know, only Mal was in limbo. Cobb was always aware he was in a dream. Perhaps by having a dreamer (Mal) in a state of limbo, and by sharing the same dream space, Cobb shares the same limbo as that dreamer, although as said he was always aware it was a dream. Limbo is said to be a vast empty space of nothingness in which the dreamer-in-limbo perceives as reality. Things only appear in it when the dreamer starts building them, or if someone who has been to limbo occupies the same space, which then fills the limbo with buildings and projections from the old limbo. So when Fischer enters limbo, that limbo is empty. But when Cobb and Ariadne enters his limbo, Cobb who has shared limbo with Mal, fills the space with his old projections.

6. Basically, the inception was done by seeding doubt in Fischer's mind that Browning was trying to steal Fischer Sr.'s will that states Jr. will have the choice to break up Sr's empire and do what he wants. This was actually done in level 1 (the hostage scene), where Eames, impersonating Browning, tells him how much his had loves him and makes it known to him that he has a locked will somewhere, strictly for Fischer Jr. The seed is sown, and from then on, even if Fischer himself doesn't realize it, he subsubsubconsiously (lol) thinks his dad loved him and was only disappointed that he tried to follow in his footsteps. In Level 2 (hotel), the Browning that enters the room is actually FIscher's projection of Browning, and Browning confessing to trying to steal and destroy the will in the safe (so Fischer wouldnt break up the empire and Browning could impose his influence on the company) was actually completely simulated by Fischer's own subsubsubsubsubsubsconcious mind (lolol). It was actually done in a very subtle manner. In Level 3, basically his subsubsubconsious mind makes up a projection of his dad telling him that he didn't want him following in his footsteps, and this the full idea of dissolving the company is implanted. I think that's how it goes. It sounds a bit silly, but I think it's quite an original idea.

7. Basically both Saito and Cobb were stuck in limbo. This time Cobb really IS stuck in HIS own limbo, meaning he doesn't know it's all a dream. When both of them come face to face though, each reminds the other of something that makes both of them realize the world is a dream. Saito sees the totem and is reminded of Cobb, and the whole "die as an old man, full of regret" dialogue reminds both of the agreement they made in the real world. I would like to think Cobb managed to realize this because of his clinging, parasitic desire (or idea, if you will) to see his children, and Saito because of his Japanese tradition of honoring agreements?

This post has been edited by QuickFire: Jul 18 2010, 10:34 PM

Yeah that was mad so what made you do it? You had the movie wear you down even before you could fully understand the plot!

This post has been edited by QuickFire: Jul 18 2010, 11:17 PM

Oh the rating will come down definitely. Way down. IMDb sucks anyway, especially for new movies, where fanboys all vote 10.

Btw, 20,000k is 20 million.

This post has been edited by QuickFire: Jul 18 2010, 11:18 PM

It's apparent to me now there are two kinds of people when it comes to Inception: those who think it's overrated, and those who are wrong.

Yeah, that whole scene was complete filler.

Anyway I think my "Cobb and Mal" theory tak boleh pakai anymore.



Reason being that I don't think the dreamer can go into deeper levels without the preceding dream collapsing. Yusof was the dreamer for level 1, and he didn't venture into level 2. Arthur was the dreamer for level 2, and he didn't go into level 3. At the beginning, while they were trying to steal Saito's secret, Arthur was the dreamer. When he was shot by Cobb an woke up, the dream began to collapse. So... Cobb and Mal probably never went any deeper than one level. Which means the shot of them being young while on the tracks was just a visual effect, they were in reality (I mean dream reality! ) old when they put themselves on the tracks.

This post has been edited by QuickFire: Jul 19 2010, 12:06 PM

Thank god then that "those who get it" and "those who think it's overrated" are not mutually exclusive.

I see you're taking a long time with your review.

And too give the other the kick as well, perhaps. It's another thing the movie fails to really explain, I think. If the dreamer can in fact go deeper into the dreams without the preceding dream collapsing, then I think my theory on Cobb and Mal is sound.

Really, the only thing they did was to plant the seed of doubt in Fischer's mind that his father might have actually really loved him and wanted him to become a man of his own. This was primarily done in level 1, when Eames was impersonating Browning. It was here also that Fischer, subsubconsiously, began to suspect Browning's involvement in the kidnapping. In level 2, the hotel, the Browning that enters the room and is apprehended by Cobb is entirely a projection of Fischer's mind. From then on, the team knows the very basic idea is in already planted, and they basically push him on, telling Fischer what he already suspects.

I already answered this. Padding! Time slows down even more in level 3, and to juxtapose this with the relatively faster time in level 2, they have to have the characters do something busy, like taking on entire teams of generic henchman, sniping, making their way through snow. The same can be said about the zero-gravity scenes in which we are shown nothing but Arthur moving the bodies from one location to the another. It's the only reason for all this bullshit action. Why couldn't they have just placed their point of entry right in the fortress? This is one (and maybe only) area of the script that's not only not up to Nolan's high standards, but also shockingly bad.

This post has been edited by QuickFire: Jul 19 2010, 05:24 PM

He wanted to see the idea they planted finally mature.

Yeah, but they didn't exactly tell how much of it is under control. It's all very incoherently presented, this part. I mean, if you're not very sure where you're gonna spawn at, why make the whole goddamn level so big? Why not just make it just the fortress, like what they did in level 2? Hmm, now that I think about it, perhaps it's such a large area to give room to Cobb for sniping the guards at the fortress. That's probably the only logical explanation. Doesn't matter. The whole of the snow level is filler.

Btw, Ariadne was the architect for all three levels. The dreamers were Yusof, Arthur and Eames for level 1, 2, and 3 respectively. Eames just added some kind of bullshit shortcut in his level, the only purpose for this "shortcut" is to have the film force Ariadne into telling the layout of the level to Cobb whose projection of Mal then uses the info to kill Fischer. See, some parts of the script is so contrived it's just bullshit.

Tell me you don't seriously believe that!
Oh where do I start...

Ariadne was the architect for all 3 levels. If the dreamer were the architect, why did Cobb employ her to be the architect? She wasn't a dreamer in any of the levels.

---

Added on July 19, 2010, 5:56 pmHey talexeh is that top in your avatar about to topple? Beware, your answer will determine the ending to the film for everyone!

This post has been edited by QuickFire: Jul 19 2010, 05:56 PM

Yeah, Ariadne did make mention of a hospital. But is it just me or were the trained projection in level 2 tamer than those in level 1? In level 1 there converged upon the team in no time and were ruthless, never hesitating to use lethal force when the chance arose, even in broad daylight. In contrast, those in level 2 were happy to sit nearly while Cobb influenced their client.

What are you saying? I'm not saying the architect couldn't also be a dreamer. Nash (probably) designed both levels of the dream, and he was the dreamer for the first and Arthur for the second.



lol who said that? It never crossed my mind that the rain was due to his bladder. I just thought the team were laughing at him because they had to wait for him to take a pee in the dream. But your... theory is funny.

Isn't the architect the one who... designs the levels? Cobb specifically said he was going to look for a new architect before he visited Michael Caine. But yes, Ariadne designed all the levels and taught them to the dreamers.

That scene was the definition of contrived! Look at the dialogue, it should have been something like this:

"Did Eames add anything extra?"
"No I cant tell you! You cant know the layout of the level!"
"Yes but we dont have time to argue now! Quick, did he or did he not add something?"
"OK yes he added a shortcut."
"OK cool tell Saito that!"

... But instead it was:

"Did Eames add anything extra?"
"No I cant tell you! You cant know the layout of the level!"
"Yes but we dont have time to argue now! Quick, did he or did he not add something?"
"OK yes he added a shortcut. There's some underground tunnel leading straight into the fortress!"
"OK cool tell Saito that! P/S nice of you to tell me where the shortcut is!"

Come on don't deny the real reason there was a "shortcut" was because Nolan wanted Mal to be in there to kill Fischer.

Btw, it just occurred to me that maybe... just maybe, the supposed 'trained projections' were actually Cobb's own projections?

This post has been edited by QuickFire: Jul 19 2010, 08:28 PM