Are you just starting out to feed your dog a raw meal? If so, undigested bones is quite normal for beginners as they are adjusting to the new kind of food and digestion.

If you want to teach your dog to eat at one place, you could put him in an enclosure like a playpen and lay out an old towel/mat for him to eat there. If he tries to bring the food away, don't carry him back. Take the food away gently by telling him 'Give' and put back on the towel/mat for him to eat. Do that a few more times and he will remember that the towel/mat is the only place to eat.

How big is your dog though? If he can swallow the whole chicken wing in one bite, then yes, the wing is too small. Feed pieces that are at least bigger than his head so that he can work and chew on it to clean his teeth more.




I beg to differ. I feed Scottie wings and drumsticks all the time with no problems. But I do add additional meat when I'm feeding wings coz wings by itself are too boney and too much bone can make the stools crumbly. If a person is just starting out however, it's a good idea to start with easy bone-in parts, like breast and keels. After they're used to it, just start feeding the other parts of the chicken.

my baby just started to eat barf last week. very good. she love it. and she is getting chubby.

Hi Jyen! Cool! More people starting to feed raw... Great to hear that Baby loves it...if she's getting chubbier, you could lower the amount to feed her to get her back into her ideal weight. I believe there's a percentage of how much to feed your dog in BARF. For the Prey Model diet, it's 2% of the estimated ideal adult weight, but this is also not a preset thing. If our dog is getting chubbier, then we need to lower the amount. If the dog is getting too skinny, then we would need to up the amount to get the ideal weight back. Main thing is to always monitor and feel your dog to maintain a good weight.

Thanks for your advice crazymouse~ Tonite i will close the kitchen door to let him stay inside when taking his meal


hmm....i just thought chicken wing is good as I just started to feed my baby raw...

yea...just started for 2 days...which in the morning i still giving kibbles...i know the digestion for commercial food and raw food is different, but since he still left a bit of kibbles, i will let him finish first then completely switching to raw... Ok...so now i know undigested bones is normal...
do you mean how old is my dog? He is a male shih tzu which is 1 year 8 months+ around 5.8kg~~~ if i am going to give pieces that are bigger than his head, it could be very very big right? like that means 1 meal per day should be enough?

I meant how heavy or big in size is your dog.. But you already mentioned that he's 5.8kg, so he's about the size of my Scottie (Scottie is about 6.7kg). It is entirely up to you if you want to feed once a day or twice a day. If you want to continue feeding twice a day, and want to feed pieces bigger than his head, you could just give a big piece, let him eat for about 15-20 mins (or as much as he wants if he knows how to regulate himself) and keep the rest of it in the fridge for the next meal. In the next meal, just let him eat everything. Me, I prefer to keep things simple, so I just feed Scottie one big meal in the evening when I get back from work

Are you feeding the BARF Model or the Prey Model Diet? If you're feeding the BARF Model, I probably can't help you much with it coz I feed the Prey Model diet to Scottie (which is basically just meat, bones and organs - no veggies, fruits or supplements) From your previous post, you mentioned only the chicken wing for your dog's first meal...is that all you are feeding? If so, it would be closer to the Prey Model diet. Try not to feed chicken wings by itself next time. Leave the chicken wing attached to a bigger part of the breast meat to ensure there's more meat, or just add more meat to the meal coz wings by itself is too boney. Was your dog's poo firm when he poo-ed after the first raw meal?

she is chubby coz she will eat other dog food as well. she chubby not coz barf. she still puppy so i know how much to give her barf. luckily she like it. anyway her name is zhuzhu

Hehe...Zhuzhu sounds appropriate Yeah, puppies can eat more since they're growing up fast, so it's all good. I thought she's adult already....heh!



This post has been edited by Rayne: Feb 11 2009, 10:22 AM

Here's something I found for beginners who would want to feed the Prey Model diet. I got this from my raw feeding group: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/ which has now more than 14000 members, and they have been very helpful in terms of information, tips and advice on getting your dog on the raw side I have made some small little notes in between too. These are the ones in blue and itallic.


Recommendations for beginning raw feeding:
1. You`ll want to start with 2-3% of your dog's (or puppy's) ESTIMATED IDEAL
ADULT
weight. Tweak with more meat if your dog gets a bit skinny, a bit less if
your dog gets 'fluffy' over the space of a few weeks.

You might start out by weighing your dog, and weighing her meals; but
most don`t continue once they get more comfortable and more experienced
feeding raw. Tiny, toy, pregnant, puppies or very active dogs might need as
much as 4 -5% or more - very large, giant, overweight or couch potato dogs
might need less than 2% to maintain.

2. Ditch the kibble or canned, there`s been plenty of discussion on this
list about why processed foods and raw don't mix; just let it suffice that
your dog can reap the benefits of raw faster and more completely if you
donate the kibble to your local shelter asap.

A species appropriate raw whole prey model diet doesn`t include kibble.
Or veggies, grains, carbs, dairy, fruits or tons of supps. Or, for the most
part, ground meats.

No need for w/rec/k bones either. And, your dog may be less motivated to
make the change if he can smell that kibble!

3. Offer at least 2 meals a day to start with. (3 meals for a pup under 6 - 7
months old, 4 for a pup under 4 mo, or for tiny dogs) Feeding once a day
(or even less often) can be a great feeding plan for a dog, but not at
first; too much new food at a meal can cause digestive upset. Feed as large
a portion as you can for the size of the meal. No little pieces or cut up,
'bite sized' chucks.

Dogs need to tear into their food and shear hunks off to swallow and
crunch bone for physical, mental and dental health. They don`t chew or eat
the way we do - their jaws aren't designed to move from side to side, just
up and down - their digestion begins in their stomachs, not in their mouths.
So swallowing big hunks of meat and bone is fine. If it fits, its OK.

If it isn't happy in the stomach, the dog will hork it up, and re eat
it, so it will go down and stay down the 2nd or 3rd time. Its all good,
that`s the way dogs are.
(Note: I've seen this before many times with Scottie too. He would actually vomit out whatever that's not settled and happily eat it back. Gross for me,yes but he's okay with it)

4. Feed a little less at each meal at first than you think you should. Too
much new food over the course of a day or two can cause digestive upset,
too. Some dogs are, or learn to be, self-regulators. That means, no matter
how much food you offer them, or how often, they will only eat as much as
they need.

You might just want to offer them fattier portions of meatymeat pork,
tongue, beef or veal heart with the cap fat left on, some trim) more often,
after they get used to eating raw.

Just be sure your new-to-raw dog knows that what you are serving is *real* food, then, leave him to decide.
OTOH, some dogs never get full! "Know thy Dog." is the motto that applies here.

5. Stay with one new meat for at least a week, maybe two. You want the dog
to be showing you that he is well adjusted to the new meat before adding in
new stuff. Take it slow; add only one new meat every week or two.

6. You can switch to a new meat by just serving it at the next meal, and
all the meals after that for a week or so, or you can add a bite or two of
the new meat in with the 'old' meat, gradually adding more new and less
'old' over several days, until you are feeding all new and no 'old'.

Pups tend to acclimate much more quickly to variety in their diet.
Whatever works for your own dog.

7. Boneless meals tend to produce loose, even runny poops. A judicious
amount of bone in a newbie dog's meal will tend to firm things up. There
will be less poop overall; raw is much more digestible and less goes to
waste. Poops will be less frequent also, for the same reason.

Bone adds bulk, so sloppy poops can be firmed up by some (don't go
overboard!) bone at each meal at first. Too much bone and your dog can get
" fossil" poops that are dry, whitish and crumbly.

8. Chicken is often recommended as the first meat to be introduced for
several reasons: its cheap, easy to obtain, has easily consumed and digested
bones, is easy to cut into different meal sized portions, is bland, you can
trim visible
fat and skin if you need to tweak, you can even take out bone if you need
to, most dogs will eat it and its pretty bland.

Read the labels on the chicken before you buy; don't get any that say
its enhanced with flavoring/seasoning s, tenderizing additives or
salt/sugar/broth injected. Some dogs get itchy or vomit or get true diarrhea
from enhancements. Whole chickens are the best to start with, ime. Cut into
portion sizes with kitchen shears, as needed.

9. Some newbie dogs vomit or poop bone bits. There is an adjustment
period, so you want some bone in most meals at first, but too much bone may
not be digested and the dog will just hork it up or poop it out.

NPs, its just the dog's way of saying "Too much right now, no thanks."

10. Some dogs will get the Bile Vomits or Bone Bits Bile Vomits (BV or BBBV)
when new to raw simply because their schedules or routines of eating have
been changed.

When a dog adjusts to raw, his gastric 'juices' become much more acid, to
better digest the raw meat and bone. If he's expecting a meal at a certain
time, the juices start flowing in anticipation of getting a meal. When the
meal doesn't happen, the dog often will hork up the yellowish, foamyish
bile, with or without bones.

Sometimes they hork up BBBV because raw digests faster than kibble, the
tummy is empty, so it must be time to eat. NP for the dog, he's gotten rid
of the irritation. He may react as if he feels bad, just because you are
upset that he did it on your new comforter, or on the white carpet.

11. A lot of dogs don't drink as much water or as frequently when switched
to all raw, all the time. Raw has a pretty high water content and most dogs
are forced by dry as dust kibble to over drink water to compensate in order
for their bodies to process it. If only fed raw, you don't need to coax your
dog to drink more water or even broth, just offer plenty of fresh water,
he'll drink when he needs it.

12. True diarrhea is not just loose, runny or sloppy poops. It is frequent,
liquid or watery explosions of poo that a dog cannot 'hold back'.

True diarrhea is caused by disease or parasites. The occasional loose
poops, or "Cannon Butt" even over a few days, that comes from feeding a few
too many boneless meals or introing too much of a new meat or feeding too
much organ at one whack, is not diarrhea.

13. The general rule of thumb for feeding raw is: 80% meat (muscle, fat,
skin, connective tissue and such muscular organs as heart, tongue and
gizzard) 10% EDIBLE bone (not all bone that is served must be consumed) and

10% organs (3-5% of this is liver, the rest is as much variety as you
can find and afford) This is not an immutable 'daily requirement' .

"Balance Over Time", over weeks and months is one of the raw feeding
maxims. ; ) If you feed true whole prey, that is; entire animals at a time,
then the meat to bone to organ ratios are 'perfect' for that creature.
Whatever parts your dog can eat of is right for him. In the wild, wolves
will eat off a large animal carcass for days, and each wolf gets different
parts.

If times are hard, they will consume the entire critter, including
skin, fur, less 'choice' parts and will even crack the hard long bones to
get to the marrow, even hunt small prey, like rabbits, mice or birds. If
pickin's are plentiful, they will eat the easiest and choice parts, and then
move on.

Because of variances in size, age, personality, life experiences,
structure and dental ability, a particular dog will be able to consume, or
not: all or part or some or a little bone from any particular animal. The
exception to this is most beef bones, and the weight bearing bones of large
ruminants - too dense - these are tooth breakers and can cause early wear.

If you feed 'Frankenprey' , that is; a variety of protein, body parts
and organs from different animals, to simulate the whole prey experience for
your dogs, you are challenged to find enough variety in all these aspects
for optimal health.

14. Organs - don't try to add a lot of organs or organ variety at first. An
easy way to satisfy the human need to "Do it all, right now!", is to toss
the gizzards and heart you get with your whole chickens in with a bonier
meal, a little piece at a meal.

Heart and gizzards are organs, but should be fed as meatymeat. The liver
can be cut up into teensy bits, and fed a tiny bit at a time with a meal.
This will allow you to feed organs, but shouldn't cause runny stools. If it
does, stop feeding it and freeze those parts for later on down the line.

My list of organs, so I don't forget to look for variety; liver, salivary
glands, spleen, trachea, esophagus, sweetbread (thymus & pancreas),
ears, kidneys, repro organs, brain.

"Offal" - viscera and trimmings of a butchered animal often considered
inedible by humans, but great dog food! Offal can fall into either
meatymeat or organ categories.

15. SEBP - Slippery Elm Bark Powder. This is a good innocuous herb that
soothes the stomach and digestive system. If you feel you need to intervene
when your dog has loose poops or constipation, this is the way to go. SEBP
is used to treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis, colitis & irritations of
the stomach. Its used to soothe, protect & lubricate mucous membranes. Also,
can be used to relieve the discomforts of kennel cough & other types of
bronchitis.
(Note: I would SO love to get my hands on these, but I can't seem to find them here in Malaysia. If anyone has seen this before, please do let me know!)

http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm

I have used 1 Tsp - 1 Tbl of SEBP to 8 - 12 oz of ground or chopped chicken.
Mix together and shape enough meatballs for several days, and freeze them.
They thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in ounce meatballs, for large to
giant dogs, 1 ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with each meal. Or, fast for a day,
(not for pups, fast for just a meal or two) offer plenty of water. Feed SEBP
meatballs 3-4 times throughout the day.

Feed smaller, more frequent meals for several days after, gradually
increasing the meals and decreasing the SEBP meatballs. You will often see
an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP, this is part of the way it soothes
the digestive system, and the dog's body will do the same sometimes even
without SEBP. You can also mix it with meat broth and feed it whenever you
fast/rest the dog's digestive tract. And you can dust meat with SEBP when
there's digestive upset.

16. You can feed pretty much any animal or animal part that your dog will
eat and that won't break the bank. : ) Common grocery store variety suffices
for some; chicken, turkey, pork, beef, lamb, fish, rabbit. Others can obtain
at a reasonable price and feed; goat, venison, emu, ostrich, bison, beefalo,
elk, mutton, mice, rats, guinea hen, quail, bear (bear? ), the list goes
on and on.

17. If you MUST supplement, you can add Salmon or Fish Body oil, either in
caps or liquid. It adds Omega 3 fatty acids to the diet, to balance out the
Omega 6s, which supermarket meats are high in.

Make sure it doesn't have any plant based oils, like soy, in there.
Build up the dog's bowel tolerance gradually to a maintenance dosage.

Follow the recommendations that come with the product you buy:

http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-omega-oils
http://www.icelandpure.com/salmon_oil.htm
[url=http://www.grizzlypetproducts.com/salmon_ oil/salmon_ oil.html]http://www.grizzlypetproducts.com/salmon_ oil/salmon_ oil.html[/url]
(Note: Not sure if these brands are available here, but I think basically most Salmon Body Oil brands here are okay. Just make sure to check that there's no soy in it)

In the case of true disease, you may need certain supps, but this is the
exception to the rule, most dogs don't.

Whole chickens, turkeys, pork shoulder roasts and fresh hams are all big
hunks 'o meat and edible and digestible bone that you should be considering
introducing into your pup's feeding plan, as well as organs.

It really isn't that hard to raw feed your dog. There's a learning curve,
definitely. But, that's what this list(the group) is here for.

Read as many daily posts as you can, read the files on the website, and
follow those links! Search in the archives for past posts with keywords; new
to raw, newbie, help, how do I start or other words that reflect your
specific search.
(Note: To do this, you would have to join the group)

it come with 100g ma. i giv 50g in the morning before i go work lo. come home she eat kibbles lo. other than that she is on canidae. hehe and she is much more chubbier edi when she not wearing tshirt. hahaha

Awww...she sounds so cute! Do you have any recent photos of her? I love chubby puppies...they all look so cuddly wan when they're a bit chubby

I'm feeding my 1yr+ female shih tzu a slightly modified version of the prey model diet.

I feed 1% of her body weight of raw meat, bones and organs for dinner because she's on the chubby side.

But she gets breakfast - a hard boiled egg and/or a tablespoon of cooked oats in warm water for fiber.

Sometimes I find bits of undigested bones in her poop, but that's okay because I read that the dog's body only absorb as much calcium as it needs. The rest comes out in her poop.

At night she gets a whole drumstick and a bit of chicken organs (liver/heart/gizzards). Sometimes I substitute the drumstick with two wings.

My mother's friend condemned me behind my back for feeding my dog raw meat. She said by feeding raw, my dog will get food poisoning from bacteria in the meat and my dog will become very aggressive and start attacking its owners. What bull. My dog on raw has NEVER once gotten diarrhea... but on kibble, yes. And if my dog become very aggressive, I think I will not be alive today to type out this post. LOL.

got ah... here she is.. my daughter zhuzhu.. but with tee on. later take her pic without. fat de

This post has been edited by JyEn: Feb 11 2009, 11:10 AM


Attached thumbnail(s)

Rayne: SEBP iherb [dot] com got. Under "Now Foods" brand. If you can post to an address in Australia or Singapore, shipping is very cheap. Sometimes they even got US$1.99 shipping to countries that accept UPS. I used to do that, post to my friend in Australia then ask him to bring back during holiday breaks.

Well, in the prey model diet, if you want to let your dog lose weight, the percentage is still about 2%. Only if we want to let them gain weight, we up the percentage. But again, it's up to you as the owner to 'Know Your Dog'. If you feel she only needs 1%, then 1% it is

I get that a lot too from other people...even my vet said that raw feeding will promote transmission of disease from the dog to the people in the house. After feeding Scottie for almost 6 months now (I started in August '08), he has not have any problems whatsoever. In fact, he has no need to see the vet since then compared to his kibble days where I had to send him to the vet for skin problems, ear infections, etc. Bacteria is everywhere, IMO. If we maintain good hygiene before, during and after feeding, it should not pose a problem to the dog, nor the people in the house.

Scottie has NEVER been aggressive with me (though he will growl a warning when Kenji - my sister's Chihuahua - comes near him during feeding time) during feeding time. In fact, I can just take the meat from his mouth and he won't make a peep. Training is also important, IMO. Blaming aggressiveness on a raw diet is absurd.

---

Added on February 11, 2009, 11:16 amThanks for the info! Sadly, I don't have any relatives or friends who stay in Australia or Singapore I will try and look it up to see though...thanks again!

This post has been edited by Rayne: Feb 11 2009, 11:16 AM

Actually I am giving a bit of veggies and fruits to my dog as well....My dog love veggies and fruits....
Do you give the meat when it's still frozen? so if your dog can't finish the portion, you will put in the frozen part of the fridge?

rayne i just realise that u r nottie scottie. swt

Omigosh...she's ADORABLE! From the photo like that,she doesn't look THAT fat. But then, photos can be deceiving. LOL!




OIC...cool! Scottie likes fruits too, but I only give them occasionally as treats.

For meats, I usually defrost it in the fridge a day before Scottie's meal. He would get the meat not frozen. But if you feel that your dog gulps his food down, you can feed frozen meat to give him a bit of a challenge and make him chew his food properly If you're feeding the same meat back in the next meal, you can just chill in the fridge instead of freezing it. Hope that helps!

Oooh you're so lucky your dogs like veggies and fruits!

My shih tzu will only accept bits of fruits if hand fed.

Raw meat and bones, I keep in the freezer. But I'll take them out to defrost before I go to work. By the time I get home around 5:30pm, the meat is soft already and slightly cool to touch. If my dog cannot finish her meal, I will take it away, put it in a small plastic container and dump it in the fridge. Then I'll give it to her again a few hours later.

LOL! Yeah...my other username is Rayne, but then when I started Scottie's blog, I kind of like NottieScottie too, so I started using that as my username

What does swt mean? I'm a bit blur with abbreviations...

ya coz she is wearing the shirt. if not she look like carpet after brushing her. swt
oh by the way swt = sweat <<<