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 BARF Diet, Bones And Raw Food Diet

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bluepuppygirl
post Jan 14 2009, 03:03 PM

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I love this thread.

I've got two dogs at home - Bobby, a 17kg spitz mix (considered mongrel) and Brandy, an 8kg shih tzu. Both are fed a diet of high quality kibble (Evo) and HCF.

Two days ago, I noticed Brandy scooting on her rear end. Immediately I suspected something was wrong with her anal glands and sent her to the vet. It turned out that her left anal gland was badly impacted. According to the vet, Brandy was probably raised on a diet of pure kibble since she was a puppy and she didn't drink enough water. So over a period of time, her digestive tract could not handle her hard poo and so it affected her anal glands. Note that I have no idea about Brandy's past because she's runaway/stray which we recently adopted. The vet told me to switch Brandy from kibble to wet dog food.

Now, I do not want to raise my dog on canned food. IMHO, if dry kibble is bad enough, imagine the amount of preservatives needed to keep wet food fresh. Probably more than dry food.

I'm thinking of switching my dog to a prey model diet which is similar to BARF, but minus the fruits and veges. According to information which I gathered from the Net, the prey model is based around providing nutrition through raw meaty bones, offal etc alone because dogs generally cannot digest vegetables and fruits unless mashed into pulp.

I got most of my info from here:

http://www.rawfed.com/

http://www.rawfeddogs.net/

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qi...13150731AA04RUc


Added on January 14, 2009, 3:07 pmI'm not against BARF, just that I fear I do not have the time to pulp fruits and veges. Still I think that any form of raw feeding, be it BARF or prey model will always be more superior to feeding processed food.



This post has been edited by bluepuppygirl: Jan 14 2009, 03:07 PM
bluepuppygirl
post Jan 17 2009, 11:02 AM

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QUOTE(american bully @ Jan 15 2009, 09:23 PM)
some dogs tend to have problems on EVOPET due to their higher protein level compared to other kibbles. and note their moisture level is not that high to.
My dog are feeding on EVO too, but she drinks lots of water...so far so good. =)
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Sigh, so much for Evo being a 6-star dog food.


Added on January 18, 2009, 7:20 pm1st day of feeding Brandy raw chicken - SHE LOVES IT! So much for reports of small dogs being picky eaters... I gave her a whole drumstick + 1/2 a piece of chicken liver and she cleaned everything up. At first I was worried she would reject raw meat but she handled it like a pro.

So happy! smile.gif



This post has been edited by bluepuppygirl: Jan 18 2009, 07:20 PM
bluepuppygirl
post Feb 11 2009, 11:02 AM

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I'm feeding my 1yr+ female shih tzu a slightly modified version of the prey model diet.

I feed 1% of her body weight of raw meat, bones and organs for dinner because she's on the chubby side.

But she gets breakfast - a hard boiled egg and/or a tablespoon of cooked oats in warm water for fiber.

Sometimes I find bits of undigested bones in her poop, but that's okay because I read that the dog's body only absorb as much calcium as it needs. The rest comes out in her poop.

At night she gets a whole drumstick and a bit of chicken organs (liver/heart/gizzards). Sometimes I substitute the drumstick with two wings.

My mother's friend condemned me behind my back for feeding my dog raw meat. She said by feeding raw, my dog will get food poisoning from bacteria in the meat and my dog will become very aggressive and start attacking its owners. What bull. My dog on raw has NEVER once gotten diarrhea... but on kibble, yes. And if my dog become very aggressive, I think I will not be alive today to type out this post. LOL.



bluepuppygirl
post Feb 11 2009, 11:12 AM

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Rayne: SEBP iherb [dot] com got. Under "Now Foods" brand. If you can post to an address in Australia or Singapore, shipping is very cheap. Sometimes they even got US$1.99 shipping to countries that accept UPS. I used to do that, post to my friend in Australia then ask him to bring back during holiday breaks.


bluepuppygirl
post Feb 11 2009, 11:23 AM

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QUOTE(n3sbaby @ Feb 11 2009, 12:16 PM)
Actually I am giving a bit of veggies and fruits to my dog as well....My dog love veggies and fruits....
Do you give the meat when it's still frozen? so if your dog can't finish the portion, you will put in the frozen part of the fridge?
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Oooh you're so lucky your dogs like veggies and fruits!

My shih tzu will only accept bits of fruits if hand fed.

Raw meat and bones, I keep in the freezer. But I'll take them out to defrost before I go to work. By the time I get home around 5:30pm, the meat is soft already and slightly cool to touch. If my dog cannot finish her meal, I will take it away, put it in a small plastic container and dump it in the fridge. Then I'll give it to her again a few hours later.
bluepuppygirl
post Feb 11 2009, 12:30 PM

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QUOTE(n3sbaby @ Feb 11 2009, 01:16 PM)
my dog is a HE...lolx...
i am very sure he going to use his paws if i give him bigger piece!!!
imagine all the white fur of his front legs with "blood water"....i will pengsan XD
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My shih tzu doesn't use her paws to eat raw chicken, if the piece is too big, she use her jaws to sort of fling it left and right while chewing.

Ya, the drawbacks of raw feeding is usually the mess. If I didn't tie up dog up during feeding, sure she walk here and there carrying the meat in her mouth. Once she even brought the meat indoors and left it on the floor. Ended up I needed to mop the floor. So now I tie her up and spread newspapers on the floor. After eating, wipe her mouth down with damp paper towels and clean the eating area with mild detergent.
bluepuppygirl
post Mar 11 2009, 02:08 PM

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QUOTE(White Palace @ Mar 2 2009, 03:56 AM)
I'm not sure whether is there any difference, coz certain packaging got written stuffs like "no hormons, no antibiotic" something like that.
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Organic chicken will always be better than those non-organic chicken, but the price for O. vs non-O is somewhat ridiculous. Of course, if money is not an issue, organic/free-range meat will always be first choice.

As raw meat makes up the bulk of BARF-fed dogs' diet, it's probably wise to take into consideration the amount of antibiotics/hormones in raw meat they ingest.

For me, I feed "normal" meat... the unbranded type I get from supermarkets or wet markets simply because it's not cost effective for me to buy organic. Heck, I don't even buy organic meat for myself!

Also, has anyone thought whether it is better to feed raw "unpremium" meat (non-organic) over 6-star kibble (grain-free, made from wholesome organic ingredients)? Just curious.


Added on March 11, 2009, 2:14 pm
QUOTE(Rayne @ Mar 1 2009, 02:07 PM)
Got difference wan meh? To me, chicken is chicken I guess...unless the chicken is enhanced, like they put seasonings/extras into the chicken, it should be the same I think. The group I joined also have some members who face the same problems(dogs allergic to chicken), but after a while they notice that it's mostly cooked or enhanced chicken that the dogs were allergic to. Check the packaging of the chicken that we buy...it should not have any additives/enhancement thingys on it. But I think in Malaysia, we don't really have enhanced chicken like the US...most of the chickens we buy are fresh ma. If the dog is also allergic to raw chicken as well, then we just switch to other meats as staple lo...no biggie smile.gif

Chicken is not a must...in fact, in the raw diet, we should feed more red meats (beef, lamb, mutton, venison, etc) compared to white meats like chicken. smile.gif
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Oh really? I didn't know that we should feed more red meat than white meat! Very interesting, will do more research on this.

My shih tzu gets raw chicken most of the time, because it's cheaper and less stinky (IMHO) than other meats. She gets pork once in awhile but chicken makes up the bulk of her diet. No allergies so far, thank goodness.

Btw, I have not seen "enhanced" raw meat before... eggs got lah... enhanced with omega and selenium and zero cholesterol... sounds slightly freaky to me. Eggs should just be... eggs. LOL.

This post has been edited by bluepuppygirl: Mar 11 2009, 02:14 PM
bluepuppygirl
post Mar 11 2009, 02:39 PM

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QUOTE(Rayne @ Mar 11 2009, 03:31 PM)
I have yet to see any organic chickens sold near my place, but I have to agree that organic stuff's prices are definitely ludicrous! But yes, free-range / wild meat is the 'prime' choice for raw-fed dogs, though I don't think I can afford that just yet.

Any form of raw meat is still better over kibble, IMO. That's because, organic and grain-free or not, kibbles are always processed and cooked...plus, there WILL always be added preservatives and flavourings, 6 star kibble or otherwise, so I'm sticking to raw smile.gif

Red meat is the more common prey for the wolves...and because we are mimicking the feeding of the wolves, we should definitely feed more red meat. In fact, the ideal form of meat would be feeding venison to our pups, but I have yet to find any affordable venison. sad.gif And because I am not feeding Whole Prey (as in, feeding the whole animal as is...no chopping, plucking, skinning etc) - more towards Frankenprey, variety is important too. So other forms of red meat is necessary. I've also read that too much poultry (the kind that we get from supermarkets and stuff...not the free-range ones) have too much Omega-6 which is not really good. There should be a balance of the ratios in Omega-6 & Omega-3....red meats and fish have considerably better ratios of O-6s & O-3s compared to poultry. Will see if I can find that article I read in the raw feeding group smile.gif
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Ohhhhhh I get it now. Uhm, dunno if this a dumb question or not, but can chicken liver be a substitute for red meat?

I've seen venison being sold in the local hypermarket, but is is expensive. Even the scraps/spare parts are expensive! I think beef is probably the most cost-friendly red meat out there... is it? Not the premium NZ air-flown type, I was thinking more of the local wet-market variety smile.gif

I'm not too familiar with beef because previously growing up in Buddhist family, we never had beef at home.. only Bovril. Lamb, yes, once in awhile... but not beef. Until now when buying raw meat for the dogs, I never once stop by the beef section. Hmm.


Added on March 11, 2009, 2:45 pmBtw, when I'm too lazy to prepare raw meat for my dog's brekkie, I give her a hard-boiled egg. That happens maybe twice a week. Does anyone else do that?

I know prey-model advocates feeding raw eggs... shell and all, but I worry about biotin-deficiency when feeding raw egg whites, and I'm not that hardworking to separate the white and the yolk, then cook the white and add to the raw yolk etc.

I love that eggs are an excellent protein source for dogs. In addition, eggs are very dense and filling.. one egg actually goes a long way, even for humans! smile.gif

This post has been edited by bluepuppygirl: Mar 11 2009, 02:46 PM
bluepuppygirl
post Mar 11 2009, 03:08 PM

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QUOTE(Rayne @ Mar 11 2009, 03:59 PM)
No, chicken liver is considered as an organ, so it's not a substitute for red meat...you CAN however, feed beef or pork hearts as red meat. Though the heart is an organ, it is full of muscle, so it is considered as meaty meat. Same goes for the chicken gizzards. smile.gif

I feed a lot of buffalo to Scottie too...that is sometimes cheaper than even the local beef being sold. I'm hoping the beef or goat that we get here are grassfed, coz grassfed ungulates have good ratio of O-6 & O-3s...the same can't be said if the cows, goats or chickens are fed with corn and what not though. I guess we'll never really know right, since we don't know actual farmers.  hmm.gif

I've tried feeding raw eggs to Scottie, but he doesn't really seem to like it...LOL! Nah, the biotin thingy is not really a big issue. For the biotin deficiency to work,you would have to feed more than one egg a day (if I remember correctly,it was in the ranges of 10-20 eggs per day!). Plus, feeding the egg yolks and whites together will lower the biotin deficiency thingy. smile.gif No worries feeding raw egg, though it's not really an important thing, if I may say so. Eggs are more like a bonus thing I guess...
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Hmm did I misread something.. chicken gizzard is considered red meat?

I love feeding chicken gizzard because it's neat (not bloody) and so easy to handle. But as offal goes, chicken liver is definitely a cheaper alternative.

Ah okay, I guess I'll scout around for pork heart (I thought pork's white meat?) or cow heart. I'm a bit sick of feeding chicken liver already.

Really I have never seen buffalo meat before! How much is it per kg, and where do you get it from?
bluepuppygirl
post Mar 11 2009, 04:41 PM

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QUOTE(Rayne @ Mar 11 2009, 04:18 PM)
Well, gizzards are not red meat, but they can be counted as meaty meat...meaning in the 80% of meat for a meal, gizzards would fall into that category. smile.gif Pork is definitely red meat...they're only marketed as 'the OTHER white meat', but they're still red meat. LOL! Careful of feeding too much liver...liver should only be half of the 10% in a meal portion, not a lot actually. smile.gif

I get buffalo meat from supermarkets actually. So far, I've seen them in Giant and Carrefour. The branch I always go to is in Bandar Kinrara Puchong, and they always have it in the same place as the chicken and beef section. Usually they sell them in big blocks of meat. smile.gif The cheapest price that I've got so far was RM8.90 per kg, and that was quite some time ago...sad.gif Nowadays it has gone up to RM11.90 per kg, which is still relatively cheaper than the local beef sold there (RM20 plus per kg!). There's another package of buffalo sold in the frozen sections...can't remember what's the company name, but it has like Jawi words written on it, and says the meat was imported from India. The package is about 900g each, and is usually sold for about RM9 - RM11 per pack. Sometimes if I can't find the big blocks of meat, or those were too pricey, I would get these for Scottie smile.gif

Another cheap source of meat could be wild boar...smile.gif My Mom helps me with that though...she gets it from the wet markets. They are going for about RM8-9 per kg if I'm not mistaken...about half the price of normal pork! smile.gif The only thing I do with wild boar though is I would freeze the meat for a good 2 weeks or so before actually feeding it. This is because I want to kill of the trichnosis (parasite) that MIGHT be in wild boars...it all depends on you I guess, but I tend to be a LITTLE bit paranoid when it comes to things like this, so I would just err on the side of caution smile.gif
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Seriously wow.

I never knew wild boar to be cheap... I always thought it's exotic meat = expensive!

I don't think we have buffalo meat in Kuching, probably have to ask around my Malay colleagues or pay a visit to the Malay butcher.

Oh, I just asked my colleague! He told me buffalo meat is easy to find in West M'sia and when he was staying there, he usually use buy buffalo meat to cook curry or rendang for kenduri. But in Sarawak very hard to find.

I think I'll be scouting for pork heart... Thanks for the detailed info! It's great to have a knowledgeable fellow raw-feeder to turn to. smile.gif


bluepuppygirl
post Mar 11 2009, 05:02 PM

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Oh ya.. forgot about burung puyuh!

Will scout for that too... never thought of it. Shouldn't be hard to find since I see people selling fried quail at pasar malam. Maybe ask them where they get their supply from.

Thanks for the group link! Will join that tomorrow... since I have to leave the office now... smile.gif

 

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