I was sitting at home reading all your threads and replies and i'm pretty amused.
Are all of you'll practising doctors in Malaysia yet??

Well i'll start off by saying that I graduated from Manipal-Melaka. I was in the 2nd batch. I got offered into IMC at that time 1997 and PMC. It however was too expensive for me as at that time as our country had a bad ecomonic recession. Well I went to India, studied hard, partied hard too and eventually came back to Melaka to complete the degree. I graduated in 2003 and started my housemanship then. I've been a surgical M.O for 4 years now in HKL, gone thru General Surgery, Plastics and Neurosurgery.

I've had the opportunity to work with a alot of doctors, whom graduated from all over the world, and i also had the opportunity to teach and guide housemen's who also graduated from all over the world.

I would like to say that it doesnt matter where you graduate from. Ive had really good housemen's who graduated from some god forsaken colleges in indonesia, but they prooved to be really good - knowledge wise, hard working and very interested in their jobs. I've had housemen's from my college who i thought we're to be idiots, but most  of them we're good, and i've had housemens from ireland, uk, who at times proved themselves to be idiots too.

As long as you you know your a doctor and your there to do one thing, work hard and treat your patients, i personally feel it doesn't matter where u got your MD, MBBS from.

To proove a point to myself, i took the PLAB when i was a houseman and i passed it in one go. I then completed my MRCS this year and took the NZREX (which is the new zealand board exam) and passed it too. I've been offered a job in aukland and i'm leaving in november. So really... i dont know why is everyone bickering about where you'll graduated from or who is better. If the 1st world countries like aussie, NZ... can look beyond my degree and see that i'm competent enough, then why don't all of you start also having a first world mentality and see a doctor as a doctor and not judge him from what bracket he has at the back of his MBBS.

The Manipal problem on the other hand will be resolved. Dont worry about it guys.. its all hype and i've seen this crap happen before when i was graduating. The MMC didnt want to reconise our degree when i first came out and wanted us to sit for some other exam. Manipal also is a multi million business of the PAI's, so thrust me... it will be resolved in an instant.

Oh by the way.. i use MBBS(MMMC).

melaka campus got pool?? didnt see one.....in manipal yes,we got pool..

at last someone with great insights thanks for ur advice, something we need in our med training years coz i believe everyone here is passionate about being a doctor..
so, ur official mbbs cert was printed on it as MBBS (MMMC)?

if you say so......since you already made up your mind about this, and now resort to personal insults....

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Added on August 11, 2008, 7:18 pm

wrong about what? what did i say? i have made it clear imed is not relevant as far as individual country's sovereign right to recognise degree is concerned.......so listing there is not of consequence in the local indian and msian context.....

in any case, the website was last updated 1 august 2008....

but somebody has been stalking the site daily....

website updated 1 Aug.........incident occurred over the last week......so of course no update.....that is all it means......not updated....does not mean imed already determines it is semua okay even before doe india makes a decision......

yes, it is okay to be wrong......just admit it, everybody makes mistakes.....

*sigh*

The "Kalau tak sukar, kamu keluar!" mentality has permeated every level of Malaysian society.

Standard argument that has been brandished over and over again. The fact of the matter still remains: you cannot extrapolate an outlier to justify the trend. Yes, there will no doubt be competent doctors from  the "third world" universities, even so, you will be tarnished with the same brush.

On the same vein, there will be outliers from "first world" universities who end up with the Dr Death nickname. Case in point: Jayant Patel.

Justify your shortcomings as you wish, but at the end of the day, it is society that judges us, regardless of field.

actually, that is putting words in my mouth, when i said no such thing, as usual....so for the record again, this is my stand:

1. developed countries are consistent in their selection and training process, and thus has the best record of consistent med education....obviously of choice then.....

2. ipta/ipts and many 3rd world schools suffer from selection and training issues, just know that you will have a mixed bag of classmates and lecturers when you get there.....

3. money should NOT be a factor in the selection process, just interest and ability......the practice of buying places in msia (and 3rd world in general) is bad.......

so which part of that is not in agreement?

Doctors who are incompetent can be removed by political will. In Australia, its called the "AMC Examination". I'm fine if you graduated from some flea-bag from Romania; just meet the standards set by the MMC.

Apple and oranges? I don't think so.

And before someone points to Jayant Patel, let me make it clear that I never once said the examination system in infailable. But any check and balance is better than the multiple back doors of Malaysia. Jayant Patel was one of the 8000 overseas doctors admitted in 2003 to Australia. That's a (theoritically) 0.000125% chance.

eh.......actually, no lah......mostly 'locals', many from the spore branch of the previous um (before partition)......

T.J. Danaraj had no qualms bringing in the best lecturers he could afford and most of these lecturers originated from the Indian subcontinent, some of whom are still with the University. The country had not enough doctors let alone lecturers and in the initial years the University Hospital had to depend on a large expatriate population to help establish this school.

So you are saying there all doctors from the 3rd world are incompetent and should be politically removed? Bare in mind that many doctors in Msia are from 3rd world schools which are recognized by MoH (mostly India). Also, UM's high medical standard (previously) was achieved by lecturers from India.

So yes, dun compare apples to oranges.
Putting words into my mouth.

Pray, tell me where did I say in that post that "all doctors from the 3rd world are incompetent"?

Let me repeat myself: Like politicians, incompetent doctors can be weeded out. It is just the political will thats lacking. In the same way no one has the political will to remove (amongst others) Khairy, anyone who thinks about setting up a "MMC Examination" better start drafting their resignition letter.

Apple and oranges? I still don't think so.

sigh.......that's why have to repeat, some people too dense to get it the first time......

see above............point 2, the basis of all my comments.......

where did i say all 3rd world doctor not up to par........?

for the other question, see point 3.....

eh.......they did look at his degree, and they did NOT recognise it, and want him to prove himself.....that is why he had to sit for the qualification exams in uk and nz........

bottom line: you have to prove yourself individually, since the standards are too variable for blanket acceptance.......

back to the usual passion vs intelligence debate.......sigh.......

i suspect most here know that based on strict merit based criteria, they may not have got into med school, hence desperately holding onto the belief that people should be allowed to try out, based on interest rather ability.....

oh well......

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Added on August 14, 2008, 7:42 amRevised principles

1. Selection of medical students should firstly be based on academic merit. There are more than adequate number of potential candidates with interest and passion in the profession from a group of top 5% students in any cohort. (in msia, that is 10,000+ students)

2. From this group, final selection should be done based on applitude, attitude, interest, compassion and other attributes.

3. money should NOT be a factor in the selection process. The practice of buying places is bad.......

4. developed countries are consistent in their selection and training process, based on 1, 2 and 3. and thus has the best record of consistent, quality med education....

5. ipta/ipts and many (not all) 3rd world schools suffer from selection and training (mostly assessment) issues, resulting in inconsistent quality of students and graduates.

6. Exceptions occur, but cannot be used as justification for allowing poorly qualified students to 'try' medical education.

1. Yes...you are quite right...not much difference, which is why ENTER above 99 is preferred.
http://www.medicine.unimelb.edu.au/future/ugradselect.html (It says min 96, but look at the actual figures [CSP=subsidized fee, CSP-bonded=subsidized fee but bonded to rural areas for about 5 years)
It doesn't say anything about international students though, but I'm guessing more than 98...

2. I would like to know how you define 'lucky' in writing critical analytical essays (remember, having the points is not enough-your way of argument and presenting it is also very important)

3. If you notice...we are actually dissing SPM, not supporting it due to its low quality.

4.  Ok...lets say you are from Manipal and you did a A-levels before that (or something equivalent) and obtained 4As. You have this friend 'B' who also did A levels but got something like 4Cs and got into Manipal. Another friend 'C', got into another uni is Russia with just his SPM results. How would you feel?

5. I shall chose to ignore the other unnecessary parts.

So, you're not talking about what happen during medical years? Fine...then don't attend med school and proclaim yourself a doctor after SPM.

Seriously, do you know what OSCEs or clinicals are? Have you heard of anyone being nice to patients for 5 years and then being the direct opposite after that? Because, by denying the relevance OSCEs and clinicals, you are denying the practical part of medicine; interaction between doctors and patients. OSCEs are not just showing how well you can do a physical exam, but also your communication, body language, empathy, and how well you connect/make the patient comfortable. Failure to do so in any of these fields=repeat of the semester.

In clinicals, you deal with real patients and they won't pass you if you are an insensitive person.

And I see that you've resorted to personal attacking....
If you have data of hundreds being suspended, then please show proof too.

as much as i hate to disrupt the massive argument going on here, do you guys want me to close this thread? just seeking feedbacks, thats all. thanks

we have certainly gone slightly off topic.......although i have tried to explain why manipal's problems may be not unfounded........but it's all reasonable arguing so far, some good, some rather pathetic......to be expected of the mixed bag of medical students taken in by med schools here......

As for SPM, they'll push most of the bumiputras into the diploma programmes. Or give them mdedical JPA scholarships to India even with just 7As (my mother's student, so no disputes)

STPM is a different story la. But during my time, all 4 flats got into the courses they want. Not too sure about the present.

Haha, just like when u go yum cha...you'll never stick to the same topic....