Hye all sifu out there, hoping u guys can give me some advice and guide on my new ICE setup ...5 days ago suddenly i'm building my interest into ICE after 3 years listening to my car's (WAJA) factory audio setup..so i'm trying to googling around bout ICE but then it seems hard for me to digest most of the info and understand how complex ICE system can be e.g. RMS, input power, output power, low pass filter (LFP), bridge connection, SQ, SPL etc. i guess it's because of my accounting background

Despite of still blur2 on these ICE thingy, today after doing some window shopping at few ICE shops, i've decided to change my HU, Front and rear speakers.. below are details of the item that i picked by fork-out around RM1100 including installation , dont know whether the price is reasonable or not ...

Head unit.
Kenwood KDC-MP239 (cheapest model )
WMA/MP3/CD Receiver
http://my.kenwood.com/Car_Entertainment/1D...ivers/KDC-MP239

Spec:
• Maximum Output Power : 50W x 4
• 2.0V 1 Preout
• Rear/Subwoofer Switchable
• Subwoofer Level & Low Pass Filter Adjustable
• Front AUX Input with Input Sensitivity Adjust
• Bass Boost
• System Q:Sound Control with Pre-programmed Tone Curves
• Fader Control
• Attenuator (-20dB) with Smooth Volume Return

Front Speaker
JVC CS-FS60
16 cm 2-Way Separate Speakers (is it consider component since i dont see any crossover? )
http://www.jvc-me.com/productDetails.asp?prodid=1210

•270W Peak/45W RMS Power
•Frequency Response: 35Hz-40,000Hz
•Sensitivity: 87dB/W.m
•Crossover Freuency: 4kHz
•Aramid Fibre + Carbon Graphite Composite Metallic Olefin Cone with Fabric Texture
•Titanium Hard Dome Separate Tweeter
•Strontium Magnet (Woofer)
•Twin Roll Butyl Rubber Edge
•Heat-Resistant Voice Coil
•Phase Plug
•In-Line Crossover Network
•Mounting Depth: 44 mm

Rear Speaker
Kenwood KFC-S6962
6"x9" 3way, 3-speaker system
http://www.kenwood.eu/products/car/speaker...-S6962/details/

Spec:
Peak Input Power: 300W
Maximum Input Power: 150W
Rated Input Power: 75W
Woofer Cone material: P.P. Mica with fiber texture
Speaker Basket: Steel
Speaker Surround: Rubber
Sensitivity: 92dB/W/m
Frequency Response: 28Hz ~ 25000Hz
Speaker Impedance: 4Ω

After listening to the new setup i realized it produce crystal clear sound which is it's good for me ..however then the Bass level seems to make me upset ...it's was lower than or equivalent to my previous clarion factory ICE...the bass quality only outshine the old setup while playing audio CD at higher volume.if lower volume, the bass is more or less same like clarion factory one..the bass even worst when playing MP3 file. i used to play MP3 file through FM modulator before and i have to say the bass is more deep compare to my new setup...So i tend to believe that by installing an amplifier will suit my need for better bass. i'm not interested to add any woofer for the moment coz it's too much for me and i dont like to fill-up my trunk with more speakers...

but the problem is i'm not sure which amp is suitable for my new speakers...i'm afraid i'll blow the speaker if i install the wrong spec one...i read somewhere that the rated input power of the speakers which going to be connected to the amp should be greater than the max output power of the amp itself..what does it mean? my front speaker is rated @ 45watt but then most amp i notice have output power more than 50watt, so can i connect my speaker to most of the amp??? ...appreciate if somebody can simulate or explain to me?

then i read some more that the impedance of the speakers should be >2ohm or greater (stereo connections), or >4ohm for bridged connection... when more than one set of speakers are going to be used, u have to calculate the combined impedance of the speaker and then connect suitable speakers to the amp. what is this? i guess some mathematical brain job and more confusion to me

also need advice from all sifu here to recommend some amplifier which is just enough to juice up my new speakers..should i get 1000watt or 350watt amp already enough for me? should i get 2 or 4 channel amp? should i use stereo or bridge configuration? (then i come across monoblock more confusion)

my budget is around RM500 inclusive cabling and installation...just now notice that a forumer in ZTH is selling this kenwood amp, KAC-5203 (2-channel Power Amplifier) around Rm350...is it a good buy for me? here the details

• MAX POWER 350W
• Rated Power Output [14.4V]
• 55W x 2 at 4ohms [20-20kHz 0.08% THD]
• 75W x 2 at 2ohms [1kHz 0.8% THD]
• 150W x 1 at Bridged 4ohms [1khz 0.8% THD]
http://my.kenwood.com/Car_Entertainment/Po...ifiers/KAC-5203


hope u guys would be able to guide me my objective is just to have better n deep bass even at lower volume coz i dont really like listening music loudly...sorry for writting too long

p/s : i'm listening to Metallica, Muse, GnR, Search, Wings and some hip-hop kinda music ie shawn kingston, justin, eminem...

This post has been edited by silverbolt143: Aug 4 2008, 08:52 PM

If you need slightly better than stock system.. .RM1100 just enough guar...lo

really ar? if i know earlier i would rather stick to my stock system then Hais
with RM1100 i would get high quality home theater or PC surround system...i guess my mistake is assuming that ICE system is same like those ...

where got good home theather @ 1100??? hahahahaa....

Sorry Bro, i'm not refering to those sell in harvey norman that's considered super high end for me ... those chapalang set sell in giant and tesco only priced < RM300 as compared to those sell at courts mammoth, sen-q which is around RM1500 and IMO still sounds better compared to an ICE system at the same price....

This post has been edited by silverbolt143: Aug 4 2008, 10:41 PM

it is not a must to get a system that is all kenwood... it is OK for u 2 mix n match around.. (cz u seems 2 b like interested to get a whole set of kenwood )

but rm500+ would bring u anywhere far for a new amp.. if u r serious in music quality n don mind in quality used stuff... then maybe u can pick up 1...

yap u are rite, RM500 only can get cap ayam amp ...thanks for the advice...maybe i need to extand the budget to RM1000....i'm OK to mix around actually, it just that numerous seller brings kenwood brand and its within my earlier budget..

but the most important thing rite now is i need guide on how to find a suitable amplifier for my speaker .i dont wanna end-up blowing my speaker by choosing the wrong amp...what are the spec that i should consider before buying an amp...should i choose 1200watt over 350watt? should i choose 4 channel over 2 channel? ...

my objective is just wanna have better bass from my 6x9 rear and 6" front 2 way speakers, plus still would be able to control fader and balance from the HU ....

get a RM180 china v12 amp from garage sale section..save the money

its not going to make any big different since you are using kenwood speaker

even if u powered it with an audison vrx..it is still not going to sound too good

yap, been thingkin bout this copy Alpine V12 too...if i decide to get an active sub would it be good enough than compared to normal external amp+subs?

what's wrong with kenwood speaker? any recommendation to replace my rear 6x9 then? pioneer, JVC?

This post has been edited by silverbolt143: Aug 5 2008, 02:12 AM

nothing wrong with kenwood..for normal use or stock replacement it is not bad..

save the 6x9 money and get a 12" sub

its up to u la bro....
quality of sound depend on person, its not same every each other human in this earth....
heheheh
up to u to setting ur audio
i dont care what people said as long as i satisfied wif it
budget also taking part.....

thanks for the advise...i noticed normally people will suggest to amplified the component front and woofer rite?...dont bother bout rear speaker ....i guess i have no choice but to install a subs then .....despite of limited budget, i love my trunk space actually...i can "sumbat" as much durian as i want, even put 2 dead bodies inside that's why i'm kinda reluctant to add any subs in the trunk...


yup i agree with u...that's why one of my question is how to derive more bass from the rear speaker without need to turn the volume to 20...
is it impossible to achieve even by adding an amp? normally i just listen up to 10 volume level....but currently if i wanna get more bass i have to turn the volume to 16-20, i have to say that the bass is really satisfying and just as what as i need (kickin my heart rate )..the overall sounds is perfect and crystal clear for me without buzzing/humming but then listening to singer's voice, cymbal sounds, guitar shredding at volume 16-20 is tearing my ears
From HU unit, i've already max the bass, add summore bass boost but then still cannot push the bass while listening at 10 volume level ....

Ok, back to my actual question...how to choose & match the amp with your speaker, what are the rules to follow....

FIRST, in term of wattage, considering i have:

pair of 270watt (max) component,
pair of 300watt (max) 6x9,
should i get at least an amp with max 1200watt?
(my noob calculation is 2x270watt + 2x300watt=1140 round up to 1200)..

OR

pair of 45watt RMS component,
pair of 75watt rated power 6x9 (is this same like RMS?)
should i look for an amp with output power > 45watt per channel?

OR

all this RMS and max power does not make any sense when choosing an amp? u can simply put 10000watt amp( ) and hoping i wont blow the speaker ...

SECOND Impedance (OHM)..am i spelling it rite?
from what i understand is it's represent the power resistance..different speaker setup will give different combined impedance..how impedance play its role in setting up your amp?


THIRD, in term of channel (assuming i just wanna have one amp):

lets say i just wanna amplified the front component and rear 6x9, and maintain the control over fading & balance from HU,
how many amp channel should i look for? 2, 4, 5 or 10( ) channel amp?
OR
let say i wanna amplified the front component and a subs (6x9 rear direct from HU), and still maintain the control over fading & balance from HU, can 2 channel amp do the job?...

FOURTH, i notice my HU already have this bass boost function and then most amplifier also featured this function..so if i install an amp then,

is it safe to turn both bass boost features from HU and amp at the same time? wont it harm both of my speaker and amp?
OR
it doesnt matter by doing so and it will further amplified my bass.

maybe my questions doesnt make any sense or too basic too be asked or too technical and complicated to be answered (which i believe not ) but i apologize for my noobness or making anybody feel irritated with my question

This post has been edited by silverbolt143: Aug 5 2008, 11:00 AM

for wattage, only see the RMS power, peak power is just another marketing tools to sell product and too hype up

it is advisable to get amp of slightly more RMS than the speaker/woofer.

more rms wont blow speakers, underpower amp driven hard to clipping will blow speaker as it send dc voltage to speaker and overheat the voice coil

usually 6x9 and component is rated at 4ohm

for front component + 12" sub or component + 6x9, a decent 4ch amp which can get 200w rms bridged will do..

you can control fad and balance from HU with 4ch

2ch amp for component + 6x9 will drive them at 2ohm per channel, you only get to control balance but not fad

bass boost function on both HU and amp should be turn off, it ruin sound quality and create fake bass. if your system if good enough, you dont need bass boost. bass boost might give you bass but it often drive the amp up to clipping point and create distortion

this are the answers that i'm looking for ....thank you bro

anyway, further noob question...
1) is bridge only meant for subs? bridge is by connecting positive/negative terminal of a speaker/subs to 2 different channel rite?
2) since my HU only have 1 Preout, so it's not possible for me to install more than one amp rite?

This post has been edited by silverbolt143: Aug 5 2008, 10:41 PM

welcome to ICE world.
first of all...learn the basics
dig out all the old threads and read more
ICE and HiFi is an expensive journey and do expect that

RM1.1k wont go any further in home theater , home hifi or ICE

if u ask me....the only decent speakers i hv listened which i commented good is AE Ego

i guess first of all is for u to reach the next stage of listening

i suggest u join ICE TT to find out more

thanks for the advice, yup i've been reading quite a bit but by reading only is not enuf for a noobie with zero knowledge like me ...sometime will make u lost summore if u misunderstood what u r reading (i guess that's why we have teacher at school)...i'm just asking people around so i can clarify my confusion and have better understanding on the concept, so i know whether i'm on the right path or not ...

Yup i looking forward to join ICE TT soon...so can learn summore from all sifoo

anyway this site which i just found, really informative for a noobie like me:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-rt0Cg6hT9Lc/App/Tab/Learn.aspx

1. you can bridge for component too..but it is not advisable as it double the THD and lower the SNR..for sub its ok

2. you still can install as many amp as you like. either with "Y" cable or active xover or preamp. or worst you can use hi-lo converter

Well at RM 500 budget amp, you still can get a very good 2 channel amp to power up your 6x9 rear speaker. Such as Soundstream Picasso PCA2.130 65W RMS per channel at very low distortion of 0.02% THD.

Try to search for amp that have good RMS watt per channel at very low THD percentage. Don't be fooled by those amp such as China V12 amp rated 1200W RMS when the real spec came at 75W RMS per channel at 1% THD (and it could be worse too)

Another faulty lies in your HU which support 1 pre out which is not enough.

Thanks for the tips

and the more voltage for preout is better rite? now i know why >RM500 HU is worthwhile ....before this i thought expensive HU just have extra physical accessories such dimming light, USB & Ipod support, cool faceplate, blutooth which are not important to me

by using 2 channel amp, does it mean i only can connect either pair of front or rear speaker? OR
what if i connect both pair of my front/rear speaker to the amp in parallel mode? (parallel front left with rear left speaker and front right with rear right) from my understanding it will lower the combined impedence in each channel, i can control balance from HU but cant control fading rite? any other quality effects..

THD?? now this is another informative info for me...no wonder there's cheaper amp & damn expensive amp...another thing i notice, cheaper amp usually have low RMS power (30-40watt/channel) even though the peak is around 1+++watt .....

All these kind of technical info & spec really help bros. TQ


NEXT QUESTION

Technically what's the different between good speaker and bad speaker?...i've saw some component is priced up to RM800 while there's component also priced at just RM200....below are some of my understanding bout a good speaker, appreciate if somebody can verify...
- it's material (PP or fibre cone better, rubber rounded cone better) so it can last.
- it's magnet (heavier or bigger is better, strong magnet is better) but i dont understand what's the effect of strong/weak magnet.
- it's RMS that matter (higher RMS is better) i think i can understand this one.
- it's external crossover (for component) but bit blur on this
any other characteristic for a good speaker??

This post has been edited by silverbolt143: Aug 6 2008, 10:14 AM

high perout voltage is better as this give bigger resolution to the amp and you do not need turn up much gain to get the same sound level, this reduce unwanted noise in the system

2ch amp you can use for front speaker..the rear just use player output also can

if you connect front and rear to 2ch..u cant control fad

some sq amp also have low rms output..not all have high power and high power doesn't always mean better

what's the different between good speaker and bad speaker? this is like asking what's the diffrent between kancil and bmw. both got 4 wheels and both can bring you to destination. it is the sound characteristic, tone balance, personality and built quality that matter..everyone got their preference of speaker brand..depend on your budget and liking

thank for info bro...that's really helpful ....

no offence bro, yes it's like comparing kancil and BMW but then technically on paper we can understand why BMW is much superior than kancil...
Kancil- 800cc engine, front disc brake only, no ABS + other safety features, lousy suspension & handling...
BMW- >1800cc engine, sum with v8,v10 engine summore, ABS & lots more safety features, superior suspension/handling and lots more technical spec we can understand..

i do agree we should consider sound characteristic, tone balance, personality and built quality in order to choose good speaker for our listening preference (most acc shop salesman also will say like that) but then for me these only applies if u wanna compare between several good or highend speaker (apple to apple comparison)....

the idea is to know what make good speaker sounds nice and balance as compared to cap ayam one? perhaps like apple-to-oren comparison which is objective and obvious...can we get nice tone from a plastic coned RMS20watt speaker? if the built-up quality, what sort of built-up quality we should look for? is it should be hand crafted from gold for example ..but then if it's still subjective matter, thank you so much for sharing bro ....

This post has been edited by silverbolt143: Aug 6 2008, 03:54 PM

jz sharing my opinion here.

i prefer component set speaker(6.5") for both front & rear speaker (it will produce clear tone on mid & treble without bass), a 12" subwoofer(for bass). 4 channel amp for those component set and a 2 channel monoblock for subwoofer. and of coz a pre-amp.

a 6x9 speaker(with 2 channel amp) on the rear is enough if sub woofer is out of ur budget but, those speaker wont last long if u wan more bass since it's producing mid and bass 2gether. too much vibration from bass produce will cut your speaker set life span, and u'll fell annoying with those 'over boost' sound produce and spoil the standard quality of music.

i agree with the BMW n Kancil comparison.. jz ask urself, u wana show of your ICE to ppl or jz to satisfy urself.
RM 1xxx with head unit and speaker set is a reasonable price becoz a component set will cost you RM 2xx to RM 3xx.
dun matter the size of amplifier, as long as enough to produce better sound compare to no amp...

honestly a RM 2xx 4 channel amp will do as well

hey hard to say 1, the cheap cheap those also got rm1100 ma.
but say sound quality, think again.
i had jbl home tr. and with a great acoustic sound. but a but lausi bcos 5 years ago 1. lol.

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Added on August 6, 2008, 5:32 pmhmm... actually, ya, do not boost the bass. you now only got a 6x9, a little of bas. get a sub! why not, your car got a lot of space rite. is that you really get into ice? if you are still newbie, better try with normal brand 1st. next your jus try to upgrade. you can knw what is good brand and normal brand. of cos buy the quality product, dun buy for brand. i talking rubbish actually....
buy for the QUALITY! try JBL, sure quality. if you are rich, try on jbl 660gti..
i tell u some great brand: Focal, Morel, JBL, CDT......
as i knw those is top brand....


by Xe (boring day).

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Added on August 6, 2008, 5:38 pmbridge is in amp normally. depend on the amp, some amp cannot bridge. bridge mean 2 channel connect together to become 1. also same thing with 4 channel, bridge then become 2 channel.
after that connect to the speaker.
2) you can get pre amp. to connect to your amp is the RCA, normally 3 rca is front rear and sub. the sound out is seperated well if u connect it correctly




by xe

This post has been edited by thien211: Aug 6 2008, 05:38 PM

actually i'm looking for this kind of answer, which is technical rationality. TQ ...i guess i'll get myself a 4 channel amp first, see how whole speakers perform without sub. then later if not satisfy i'll get myself a subs and amplified it together with component oni...

just wanna satisfy my self oni...i love clear sound but with amount of bass too...

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Added on August 6, 2008, 5:32 pm
hmm... actually, ya, do not boost the bass. you now only got a 6x9, a little of bas. get a sub! why not, your car got a lot of space rite. is that you really get into ice? if you are still newbie, better try with normal brand 1st. next your jus try to upgrade. you can knw what is good brand and normal brand. of cos buy the quality product, dun buy for brand. i talking rubbish actually....
buy for the QUALITY! try JBL, sure quality. if you are rich, try on jbl 660gti..
i tell u some great brand: Focal, Morel, JBL, CDT......
as i knw those is top brand....
by Xe (boring day).

---

Added on August 6, 2008, 5:38 pm
bridge is in amp normally. depend on the amp, some amp cannot bridge. bridge mean 2 channel connect together to become 1. also same thing with 4 channel, bridge then become 2 channel.
after that connect to the speaker.
2) you can get pre amp. to connect to your amp is the RCA, normally 3 rca is front rear and sub. the sound out is seperated well if u connect it correctly
by xe


i'm noobie bro ....yup my car got lots of space but extra weight of twin subs plus amp maybe will raise my fuel consumption
anyway tq so much on the pre-amp advice

This post has been edited by silverbolt143: Aug 6 2008, 06:49 PM