All sifus there,

Pls write down your wise comment on this stock.

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Added on August 1, 2008, 10:06 pmI think this is one of the potential stock and fundamentally good company.
a) Cash rich
Which mean it can venture oversea or inside malaysia or capital repayment to shareholder
b) Dividend yield is good
c) IPP windfall tax doesn't really affect so much as YTL power venture overseas eg (Uk wessex water treatment), Indonesia and australia power plants.


This post has been edited by darkknight81: Aug 1 2008, 10:06 PM

a) Yeap, it is a cash rich company but it is also carrying a very large debt which is still manageble. It really has to start using it's cash for new acquisitions if it wants to create more company growth.

b) Dividend yield is good as well. 8+% if counting share dividends. But do remember to take the new warrants into consideration, as it can strongly dilute EPS if converted.

c) It does not own or operate power plants in Australia, only having the rights to maintain the distribution or power lines. Indonesian power plants and Australian distribution business still much lower than what it earns from power business in Malaysia. Best asset they have is still Wessex Water earning them more than 70% of their profits.

So far still no news whether this company making any new acquisitions, other than some minor expansion into the water business in China which is expected to bloom in next 10 years.

Money sitting in FD earning interest is not in the best interest of the company as inflation will easily erode the value. It has to start seriously looking for another acquisition to grow the company or face slow devaluation of their cash assets. Though I suspect they will start to look for troubled companies when the current downturn peaks. Just like when they snapped up the offer of Wessex Water from Enron during liquidation of assets.



What I like about the company;
Good dividends
Manageble long term debts
Cash is 3x their short term debts
Stable, predictable income and somewhat recession proof.

What I don't like;
Not doing anything with their pile of cash at the moment
Long Term debts not being cleared fast enough
High tax (windfall tax though crossing my fingers it'll get exempted)
High number of warrants in the market

1) Cash Rich = yeah it looks like its loaded.

2) Dividen yield is about 6.7% so it is better than FD

3) Windfall tax = well according to its website, 70% of its profit is now generated in UK, Indonesia and Australia, so it may be true that it is not so effected.

However based on its share trend and its daddy YTL corp, it looks to be going south. I would be interested in this stock if it is below 1.75 so if can wait for better deal, might as well wait.

Yeah !! agree with you wessex power plant contribute about 70% of the group income. Windfall tax at malaysia will have minor issue on the company.
30% contribute by power asset. But don forget windfall tax only implies for malaysia power plant. YTL power have power plant at australia and indon.

Regarding the errode of EPS. I already calculate for RM 2.40 BEFORE the distribution of warrant B. RM 1.80 already count in the share dilution.

So if price reach RM 1.80 I WILL SAPU

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Added on August 4, 2008, 8:17 amSkidtrader,

think of the good side, cash pile can be good if there are better opportunities arises. Or maybe more dividend

This post has been edited by darkknight81: Aug 4 2008, 08:17 AM

For YTLpower, in term of EPS and PER calculated, bare in mind the huge dilution of its large amount of WA and WB. Don't use before dilution figure to justify.

There are issue of one WB with every 3 owning of YTL power mother share. With EPS of 0.22 sen before issuance of WB. That means EPS is reduce to 0.165. With current price of RM 1.80 PE is around 11. With a lot of cash in hand, ytl can either expand their water business or maybe more dividend. Cash is king


I don think they will simply use their cash for any expensive aquisition

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Added on August 4, 2008, 12:48 pmCherroy,

If i bought one YTL power mother share and one lot of YTL POWER WB = RM 1.85 + RM 0.55 = RM 2.30.

1. Is still cheaper before the issuance of warrant B = RM 2.70
2. If i not mistaken with 3 mother share you can get one warrant B for RM 0.10

Thats y i think the price is good. But of course by considering the EPS and PE.

This post has been edited by darkknight81: Aug 4 2008, 12:48 PM

"With a lot of cash in hand, ytl can either expand their water business or maybe more dividend. Cash is king"

I would prefer not to receive that higher dividend which means higher tax.
Another better alternative is to do regular buybacks. Then it is a good thing for the company

If you notice, YTL is currently doing heavy shares buyback.

I noticed as well as we could see them buying back 140 million shares last financial year.
Witht he amount of money they have now, they could do share buybacks for 10 years
Margin is high at 20% - 30%, ROE although low in the beginning, is beginning to go higher.
The only concern now would be its ROE, which has not been very high throughout the years.
And with the warrants and share dividends, the ROE would be maintained at below 20%.

I don't track YTLpower closely, but if before issuance of WB, EPS is 0.22 then you need to take into the account of WA as well which numbers roughly 800 millions of WA, so about 16% more dilution (YTL has outstanding share or roughly 1.5 billins if not mistake, so diluted EPS would be around 19 cents.


1. Prior before they annonced the new WB to be issued at 0.10, YTLPower was hovering aroound 2.20-2.40 level. 2.70 was the price that already after people knew they will issue at 0.10 which already drive up the price.

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Added on August 4, 2008, 3:26 pmIf the YTLPower share price continue to drop further, then buyback programme might not seen as good while reducing the cashflow of the company.
My personally view, if company not going to use the cash then pay back to the shareholders in term of dividend or capital repayment, if the company need the cash for business operation or expansion then fine, no problem.

I don't like the idea company sitting with huge cash pile, doing nothing. If doing nothing, then better give back to the money to the shareholders. As cash sitting in the company, mostly company will put in money market fund of FD which similar to ours ability that we can do as well.

I had posted before the downside of buyback like financial stocks in US, whereas like Citi annonced buyback at 50-60, now facing credit crisis, need to issue new share to raise capital then it issued to near market price around when is was 30. Those buy back resulted a loss of 40-50% to all the shareholders.
Then those money paid for the buyback is indeedly totally wasted.

This post has been edited by cherroy: Aug 4 2008, 03:26 PM

I repeat again, YTLPOWER does NOT own any power plants in Australia. All they have is a distribution concession. Meaning they maintain powerlines and substations.


Regarding buybacks, YTLPOWER distribute all their share buybacks, back to the shareholders as share dividend. They have done this for the past 3 years and doesn't seem to be stopping.


If you think YTLPOWER will rebound after the Windfall Tax issue is resolve, I recommend buying the warrant instead of the mothershare.


Cheeroy, regarding the warrant dilution effect. I was trying to calculate the effect of the dilution of EPS versus the gain in NTA since the cash received from warrants converted will be a form of cash injection for the company. But since the mother company YTL is the majority holder of at least 60% of the WA warrants including the families of Yeoh, it'll be like transferring from one company to another, isn't it?

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Added on August 4, 2008, 4:37 pmDarknight, YTLPOWER's reasoning for such massive warrant issue is not just to pile up cash for fun. They have repeatedly said they are hoarding cash in good times to buy companies in bad times. So an acquisition is expected nowadays because of the recent downturn. Sitting on a pile of cash while earning peanuts from FD is the worst thing a company can do. I only hope and pray they catch another Wessex Water but doubtful anything like that will ever surface again unless there is forced liquidation of American/European companies.

They will use up most of their cash reserve for an acquisition to minimize their loans hence interests accrued. Expectedly another bond issue might occur as well. Don't forget how much YTLPOWER paid for Wessex Water, buying profitable companies is not cheap especially utility assets which has huge debts.

Regarding the share price prior to the WB issuance, it was holding steady around RM2.40. It spiked to RM2.70 when the WB price was announced so that should not be taken into account because it already factored in the WB.


This post has been edited by skiddtrader: Aug 4 2008, 04:37 PM

Yap, after buy back there are few alternatives.

1. share cancellation (less share in the market which means higher EPS)
2. Share bonus issuance

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Added on August 4, 2008, 6:57 pm[quote=skiddtrader,Aug 4 2008, 05:27 PM]
I repeat again, YTLPOWER does NOT own any power plants in Australia. All they have is a distribution concession. Meaning they maintain powerlines and substations.
Regarding buybacks, YTLPOWER distribute all their share buybacks, back to the shareholders as share dividend. They have done this for the past 3 years and doesn't seem to be stopping.
If you think YTLPOWER will rebound after the Windfall Tax issue is resolve, I recommend buying the warrant instead of the mothershare.
Cheeroy, regarding the warrant dilution effect. I was trying to calculate the effect of the dilution of EPS versus the gain in NTA since the cash received from warrants converted will be a form of cash injection for the company. But since the mother company YTL is the majority holder of at least 60% of the WA warrants including the families of Yeoh, it'll be like transferring from one company to another, isn't it?

Ok Yup i am accumulating both mother share (for dividend, or maybe capital repayment (but very low posibility though)
at the same time i also bought Warrant B.

currently i have 30 lots of mother share
but the warrant have smaller quantity only 10 lots as i am worry (if capital repayment happen on ytlpower then ytl power WB will be no value.Agree?)
One more thing i wonder if i got to convert my warrant to mother share (if warrant did not go up - the worst case i mean then i got to convert to mother share) . When can i convert the warratn to mother share? Is it anytime?

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Added on August 4, 2008, 7:04 pm[quote=skiddtrader,Aug 4 2008, 05:27 PM]
I repeat again, YTLPOWER does NOT own any power plants in Australia. All they have is a distribution concession. Meaning they maintain powerlines and substations.
Regarding buybacks, YTLPOWER distribute all their share buybacks, back to the shareholders as share dividend. They have done this for the past 3 years and doesn't seem to be stopping.
If you think YTLPOWER will rebound after the Windfall Tax issue is resolve, I recommend buying the warrant instead of the mothershare.
Cheeroy, regarding the warrant dilution effect. I was trying to calculate the effect of the dilution of EPS versus the gain in NTA since the cash received from warrants converted will be a form of cash injection for the company. But since the mother company YTL is the majority holder of at least 60% of the WA warrants including the families of Yeoh, it'll be like transferring from one company to another, isn't it?

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Added on August 4, 2008, 4:37 pm

Ok Yup i am accumulating both mother share (for dividend, or maybe capital repayment (but very low posibility though as like what you mentioned they want to expand their water business)
at the same time i also bought Warrant B.

currently i have 30 lots of mother share
but the warrant have smaller quantity only 10 lots as i am worry (if capital repayment happen on ytlpower then ytl power WB will be no value.Agree?)
One more thing i wonder if i got to convert my warrant to mother share (if warrant did not go up - the worst case i mean then i got to convert to mother share) . When can i convert the warratn to mother share? Is it anytime?




This post has been edited by darkknight81: Aug 4 2008, 07:04 PM

[quote=darkknight81,Aug 4 2008, 06:48 PM]
Yap, after buy back there are few alternatives.

1. share cancellation (less share in the market which means higher EPS)
2. Share bonus issuance

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Added on August 4, 2008, 6:57 pm[quote=skiddtrader,Aug 4 2008, 05:27 PM]
I repeat again, YTLPOWER does NOT own any power plants in Australia. All they have is a distribution concession. Meaning they maintain powerlines and substations.
Regarding buybacks, YTLPOWER distribute all their share buybacks, back to the shareholders as share dividend. They have done this for the past 3 years and doesn't seem to be stopping.
If you think YTLPOWER will rebound after the Windfall Tax issue is resolve, I recommend buying the warrant instead of the mothershare.
Cheeroy, regarding the warrant dilution effect. I was trying to calculate the effect of the dilution of EPS versus the gain in NTA since the cash received from warrants converted will be a form of cash injection for the company. But since the mother company YTL is the majority holder of at least 60% of the WA warrants including the families of Yeoh, it'll be like transferring from one company to another, isn't it?

Ok Yup i am accumulating both mother share (for dividend, or maybe capital repayment (but very low posibility though)
at the same time i also bought Warrant B.

currently i have 30 lots of mother share
but the warrant have smaller quantity only 10 lots as i am worry (if capital repayment happen on ytlpower then ytl power WB will be no value.Agree?)
One more thing i wonder if i got to convert my warrant to mother share (if warrant did not go up - the worst case i mean then i got to convert to mother share) . When can i convert the warratn to mother share? Is it anytime?

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Added on August 4, 2008, 7:04 pm[quote=skiddtrader,Aug 4 2008, 05:27 PM]
I repeat again, YTLPOWER does NOT own any power plants in Australia. All they have is a distribution concession. Meaning they maintain powerlines and substations.
Regarding buybacks, YTLPOWER distribute all their share buybacks, back to the shareholders as share dividend. They have done this for the past 3 years and doesn't seem to be stopping.
If you think YTLPOWER will rebound after the Windfall Tax issue is resolve, I recommend buying the warrant instead of the mothershare.
Cheeroy, regarding the warrant dilution effect. I was trying to calculate the effect of the dilution of EPS versus the gain in NTA since the cash received from warrants converted will be a form of cash injection for the company. But since the mother company YTL is the majority holder of at least 60% of the WA warrants including the families of Yeoh, it'll be like transferring from one company to another, isn't it?

---

Added on August 4, 2008, 4:37 pm

Ok Yup i am accumulating both mother share (for dividend, or maybe capital repayment (but very low posibility though as like what you mentioned they want to expand their water business)
at the same time i also bought Warrant B.

currently i have 30 lots of mother share
but the warrant have smaller quantity only 10 lots as i am worry (if capital repayment happen on ytlpower then ytl power WB will be no value.Agree?)
One more thing i wonder if i got to convert my warrant to mother share (if warrant did not go up - the worst case i mean then i got to convert to mother share) . When can i convert the warratn to mother share? Is it anytime?

[/quote]

Exercising of warrants is anytime.

Thanks Jordy Sifu
Then i think it is ok to buy more Warrant B then

Currently there is a 3 sen discount on the WB, so if you can get it at this price and the price of YTLPOWR rise anymore, then you can exercise for a bigger discount.

I think we can agree that YTL power have strong management. So my strategy for this stock is the mother share keep for long term (for dividend and also price appreciation) . Whereas WB will be good for trading. My view is you can get 100% return for WB once the market rebound.

"My view is you can get 100% return for WB once the market rebound"

I am not so into warrants trading, but your view seems a little doubtful. Yes you might be able to get that return, but for that to happen, YTLPOWR's price "should" increase by RM0.57 as well, based on a 1:1 ratio. Though I am not sure about the delta of YTLPOWR-WB over YTLPOWR, I cannot really comment on its return. But theoretically, if both made a jump of RM0.57, then the ROI on its WB would be greater.

WB will follow the mothershare sen to sen. Since there is no conversion ratio and the conversion price is fixed at RM1.25. So definitely buy the WB if you are aiming for capital gains as the ROI is much better. Mothershare buy for dividends since WB no dividends. So if you buy both, you can offset your loss in WB due to dividend payout by the dividend received in mothershare. WB lasts for 10 years, so no worries on expiry.

I don't think they are going to do any capital repayment, it would be quite controversial if they did that.

For those stock giving high dividend, generally the 'sons' will be discount a bit because of potential reduction in share price due to dividend.

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Added on August 5, 2008, 11:26 amHighly unlikely. Although, YTLPower is a cash rich company, it carries significant of long term debt as well. It is not a totally net cash position to give capital repayment.

This post has been edited by cherroy: Aug 5 2008, 11:26 AM

Oh, thanks for the top cherroy
But, it is still a good opportunity for one to buy its discounted warrants to exercise to mother share?

Thanks for all the comments made by all the Expert
So in conclusion, don wait anymore. start to accumulate YTL power and YTLpower -WB now !!! as it will compensate each other.

Warrants has one advatange ie. gearing. If the warrant is discouting more than 3-5%, then it is a very useful tools for those cash strapped and less capital investors/traders as you can free up the cash while still enjoying the upside potential of the stock as same as those holding mothershare one.

But if company give capital repayment of special huge dividend then it would be disaster to the warrant holders.

It is a trade off.

Warrant can be a powerful and tool to use in certain situation especially those good company warrant.

But sadly to say, most good and strong company don't issue warrant as they already are financial sound and cash rich, don't need to issue warrant as a way to raise capital instead they are making capital repayment. Haha.

That is one of the issue i concern most before i bought in WB as i worry of capital repayment. But seeing that they are going to expand their power plants and water asset business it seems very unlikely for capital repayment.

Doesn't mean only strong company will give capital repayment right?. If that "strong company" is very aggresive in terms of expanding their business then i don think
they will have capital repayment. My view is for business which need constant growth and high business model capital repayment is not applicable. I can say YTL-power is in this category.

Stock like Amway, digi , bat ... have a high possibility of capital repayment especially Amway which doesn't need high business model.

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Added on August 5, 2008, 9:13 pmJordy,

I think Ytl power buy back the share then will distribute the share back to share holder. It is much more better then dividend (which you have mentioned "higher tax")
By doing so, % holding of the shareholder will increase which means increase in EPS. Kill two birds with one stone. Is a wise decision. Thats y i love YTL power so much.
I can stop trading for at least 5 to 10 years.

This post has been edited by darkknight81: Aug 5 2008, 09:13 PM

Mind you, if the shareholders fund "increases", the EPS would "decrease". I think you got the wrong idea there

YTL power bought back the share. IF i am not wrong now the treasuries of share is 0.17 bil shares.
Thereare two options i think.

i) Distribute back to the shareholder (Which means the % of shareholding is more) Agree?

ii) Cancellation of the shares (Less share which means higher EPS)

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Added on August 5, 2008, 9:57 pmLets take this scenario A and B

Scenario A

Total shares = 100

Shareholder A = 20 shares (20%)

Shareholder B = 20 shares

Shareholders C = 60 shares (20%)


Lets say B sold off all his shares and ytl power bought back and distribute to shareholders

Shareholder A will increase his stakes to become (5 + 20) shares = 25%

Shareholder C with 20% share holding will get (15+ 60) shares = 75%

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Added on August 5, 2008, 10:01 pmScenario B
will be cancelation of the share bought back.

Share holder A = 20 shares (20%)
Share holder B = 20 shares (20%)
Share holder C = 60 shares (60%)

Shareholder B sold off his shares 20% stake.
LETS say ytl power bought back the share and cancel it. Which means thereare 80 shares left in the market. Then directly increase the EPS of the shares.

This post has been edited by darkknight81: Aug 5 2008, 10:01 PM

I think the way you wrote it sounded as though you thought that distributing back as dividend increases the EPS as well. But since you've already clarified the increase as EPS as a different scenario then you are right.

FYI past share dividends are 1 share for every 25 shares held. So it's a 4% tax free dividend.

Your scenarios shown are true. But what I was talking about is the "total shareholders fund", which looks like this:

Total shares: 100
Total earnings: RM100
EPS: RM1

Shareholder A: 20
Shareholder B: 20
Shareholder C: 60

So shareholder B sells his shares, company buys back:

Total shares: 80 (Treasury: 20)
Total earnings: RM100
EPS: RM1.25

Shareholder A: 20
Shareholder C: 60

So as a conclusion, in the first scenario, the company can pay less dividend compared to the second scenario, where the company's EPS increased by RM0.25.

What I am trying to say is, you statement "% holding of the shareholder will increase which means increase in EPS" is wrong. In fact, the correct statement should be ""% holding of the shareholder will increase which means increase in DPS"

This post has been edited by Jordy: Aug 6 2008, 01:28 AM

Not necessary better. It depends.
If those buy back at high price then it doesn't better than giving out dividend.

Eg. If a Company take out Rm2.60 to buy back, but share price plunge to RM1.70, after that distributed to the shareholders as share dividend, then in this scenario it is much better if company initially decide to give back the RM2.60 in cash dividend. Then we can keep the Rm2.60 and buy now at Rm1.80. Which is much much better. Buy back at high price is not good at all and benefit for the shareholders.

Those tax on special dividend can be claimed back by personal depended on your tax bracket under the old imputation system.

Yup. But i think YTL power didn't buy back at high price the range is between RM 1.77 - RM 1.80. One of the company which bought back the share at high price is top glove. It has good business and fundamentally sound but their move in bought back the share in high price is one of the concern of the shareholder now.

That's a wrong assumption. YTLPOWER did in fact bought back shares even when the price spiked after the WB pricing was announced. They bought about 6.5 million shares after the price was pushed up.

Because the company buy the shares on a staggered basis throughout the year, it will more or less average itself out by the end of it. No one and not even this company knows the future and can predict a bottom.

But 6.5 million shares out of the 170 million bought so far since last year is considered small and they still have about 4 months of buying left to accumulate enough for share dividend.

This post has been edited by skiddtrader: Aug 6 2008, 04:21 PM

It has been buying back since back 2 years ago, not just currently.

A lot of company in KLSE did buyback quite high though generally in last 1-2 years time, because of bull run across in this period of time. Edited, even in US!

Anyway, I still prefer they distributed the cash available to the shareholders which is more realistic and straigh forward. If not use the cash to repay borrowing or expand the business further.
Just my personal preference and opinion.

This post has been edited by cherroy: Aug 6 2008, 05:01 PM

Yap. It is base on personal preference like what you said. For you, you may prefer dividend. For me of course dividend is good but i think that buy creating net worth of the share (bonus issue through share buy back ) is good also as it can avoid tax . But actually can claim back also when you declare your income tax as i did before. But for me it is one of the gem in KLSE. May i know anyone here is YTLPOWER fans? beside me

This is the latest news of YTL power regarding their bids for senoko power plant.


http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1181799

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Added on August 7, 2008, 1:03 pmWith an electricity generating capacity of 3,300 megawatts, Senoko is larger than the 2,670MW Tuas Power that was sold to China's Huaneng Group for S$4.2 billion (RM10 billion) in March.

3,300 Megawatts is almost 3 times the capicity of YTL power generation in malaysia.


In the financial year ended March 31 2008, Senoko had revenue of RM6 billion and earnings before interest, tax, depreciation and amortisation of S$245 million RM586 million.

Market participants have estimated that the sale of Senoko, which generates about 30 per cent of Singapore's electricity, could fetch around US$3 billion and that the winning bidder could need debt financing of up to US$2 billion (RM6.5 billion)-equivalent to back its offer.

Pricing is expected to be from 100 basis points to 150 basis points, and will ultimately depend on Senoko's debt multiples and enterprise value as well as the sponsor's financial strength.


The financing's structure is expected to include a bridging loan followed by a non-recourse takeout facility - similar to Huaneng Power International's facility to back its S$4.2 billion acquisition of the Tuas Power Ltd genco, the first of Temasek's power divestments, earlier this year.


Huaneng in March got a S$2.25 billion (RM5.4 billion) 18-month bridge arranged by BNP, Calyon, DBS, Fortis, OCBC and SMBC via Sinosing Power Pte Ltd.

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Added on August 11, 2008, 12:58 pmAny one got updates regarding the Singapore Senoko plant latest bidding results? I personally think TATA power will get the bid.

This post has been edited by darkknight81: Aug 11 2008, 12:58 PM

Hard to say. What makes you say TATA will get it and not Mitsubishi or even YTLPOWER?

Just my six sense

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Added on August 12, 2008, 10:04 pmSix sense

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Added on August 15, 2008, 8:18 amhttp://www.investlah.com/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=1978.0

How do you all look at this? Possible? Pls comment

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Added on August 15, 2008, 8:19 amhttp://www.investlah.com/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=1978.0

Pls comment.

This post has been edited by darkknight81: Aug 15 2008, 08:19 AM

As I've commented on the Stock Market thread. YTLPOWER will not be privatised.

Reason being, although YTLPOWER is a steady income earner, it would be more profitable if it stays public company because it can raise capital much more easier. And raising capital from new shares issue is much more cheaper than taking a loan from a bank.

As long as it can still raise capital, it can always expand.

Yup agree with you. Thats is the main reason behind y they want to be listed becos they need to raise capital. But some of the company once they don need to expand anymore they will privatize as they don wan to share the profit. Few example here that are going to privatize:

KFC
MAXIS
GCE
Astro
....

Thats y big fish always win in the end. They will neglect the minor shareholder once they don need them anymore. HOW pitiful

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Added on August 16, 2008, 8:48 pmYup agree with you. Thats is the main reason behind y they want to be listed becos they need to raise capital. But some of the company once they don need to expand anymore they will privatize as they don wan to share the profit. Few example here that are going to privatize:

KFC
MAXIS
GCE
Astro
....

Thats y big fish always win in the end. They will neglect the minor shareholder once they don need them anymore. HOW pitiful

This post has been edited by darkknight81: Aug 16 2008, 08:48 PM

Another point of privatisation is to take advantage of the constant cashflow of the privatised company (if the company is cash rich).

If one company is cash rich, but even as major shareholders, they can't move the cash easily in those public company (for whatever purposes, inter-company etc). But once it is a private company, then yes, one can utilise the cash of it much easily without violating any law.

I think this stock will not climb is near term. Maybe got to wait for years . Should not enter so much that day

YTLPOWER is supposed to be a dividend stock. It does not go up and down so much unless something happen lke the windfall tax on IPP.

You can slowly accumulate also no harm if your goal is for long term investment. But if you are hoping for a sudden uptrend, I highly doubt it will happen this year unless they can be exempted from the windfall tax or win the bid for Senoko Power.

But if you think the price will jump in near future, it's better to buy the WB warrants instead.

This post has been edited by skiddtrader: Aug 18 2008, 02:04 AM

I don like slowly accumulate, as i prefer a bit timing (when i see the price is right then buy it one go) to save the service charge. If you buy one lot of YTLPOWER the service charge is about RM 40++ PER lot. Where as if you buy more, i calculated which is less than RM 20.

If i not mistaken the minimum charges is RM 40++ per single transaction day.

Online trade mostly min is Rm28. Phone up remisier is Rm40.

Slowly accumulate for some might be mean 30-50 lots per transaction. (x100)
So buy 50 lots or 100 lots, commission rate still the same.

This post has been edited by cherroy: Aug 18 2008, 08:59 PM

LIKE what i mentioned before, i use my online trading account to look at stock price only. I personally still prefer callling up remisier let him key in. I don really have confidence on online trading in case typing the wrong figure.

I invested about 80 k in YTL power and WB in one day . No more money to enter already

This post has been edited by darkknight81: Aug 18 2008, 09:04 PM

lol....just key carefully is enuf. no need to pay extra to remisier.
for me i trade online...then call remisier just asking for information.

sry to jump in hehe, but i'm abit confuse...

i wanted to start some online trading and about that commission rate, how many lot min that will make what we buy is a good value for a small time trader and for starter?

Charges Per transaction (one day)

Minimum Rm 40 / 0.7%

Scenario One

So lets say You invest 1000 in one day.

(0.7 x 1000)/100 = Rm 7 .. Instead of being charge RM 7.00 you are being charged RM 40.00

Scenario Two

You invested 5000 in one day

(0.7 x 5000)/100 = RM 35 Since minimum charges is RM 40.00 you still have to pay RM 40.00

So it is aviseable to invest More than RM 5000 at one time to save the brokerage fee.

PB Bank, HLeBank offer online trade rm12 ....

YTLPOWER DISTRIBUTE TREASURY SHARES.


Distribution of One (1) treasury share for every Forty (40) existing ordinary shares of RM0.50 each held in the Company ("Share Dividend")


Ok this although a good thing seem to come a bit early as usually past few years the distribution is in December and normally 1:25 or 4%.

The 1:40 distribution means only 2.5% dividend.

Ex-date is 09/09/2008.

Edit: After reading the quarterly report another additional cash dividend of 7.5% is recommended for approval by shareholders for year ending 30th June 2008. Cash equivalent of RM0.0375 per share or at current markets 2.2% cash dividend.

So total is about 4.7% including share and cash dividend at current market prices.

This post has been edited by skiddtrader: Aug 19 2008, 08:05 PM

I got 35 Mother shares (350 x 100 lots) then i can only get (35/40) = 0.875 share? IF I WANT to get 1 share tat means i got to convert 5 more shares from my WB RIGHT?

huh? I don't get how you can have 35 mother shares when you say you have 350 x 100, that would be 35000 mother shares right?

Just take the total shares you have divide it by 40 and you will get the sum of shares which will be distributed to you. If you want to make it so you get a round number, you can either buy more mother shares or convert the warrants if you want to. In my opinion more worth it to buy the mother shares from the market as the warrants are at a premium now because of the drop in the mother share price.

If you have 35000 mother shares (350 x 100 lots) then you will get 875 dividend shares or about 8.75 lots.
(1 lot = 100 shares)

Edit: This kind of dividend will always make your share having some odd numbers. If you are a long-term investors, it doesn't really matter because the dividends are calculated per share basis. So whether you have 500 shares or 537 shares, it doesn't matter.

But if you are a trader and don't want to have this kind of odd lots in your CDS, you can try to buy more shares to even up the number so when the dividend share is paid, you will have accurate 'lots' that can be sold.



This post has been edited by skiddtrader: Aug 19 2008, 08:49 PM

pai sei . Actually i am a bit confuse about the terms shares and lot
For me when i tell my remisier 1 lot = (For example YTL power is RM 1.80 = RM 1800 I GOT TO Pay)
If i not mistaken last time 1 lot is 1000 shares but not 1 lot is 100 shares right?

I bought YTL power at RM 1.85 (35 lot) = Which is about 63k So i will get (35/40) x shares = (how to define)

Can anyone here define lot and share the different?

This post has been edited by darkknight81: Aug 19 2008, 09:10 PM

Well we have that confusion in what lots = ? even before this sub-forum was created. But the standard is 1 lot = 100 shares. Of course some remisiers and brokers have their own definitions.

So always remember 1 lot = 100 shares

So if i want to round up my share of YTL power i can convert my WB to mother share before 9- sep -2008 right?
Which means PPL who bought WB will not benefited from this issues right? But as i know normally warrant conversion price will be reduce after bonus issue For example WB whish conversion price is RM 1.25 maybe reduce to RM 1.10 for example.

How will the bonus shares affect the warrants?

As far as I know the share dividend after distribution will only deflate the share price by a bit so the warrants will also suffer slight drop but normally after cash dividend issue, warrant exercise price would be adjusted and so far no details of it has been announced.

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Added on August 19, 2008, 9:24 pmYup that could happen as well, but warrant strike price adjustments are considered and will probably be announced later.

This post has been edited by skiddtrader: Aug 19 2008, 09:24 PM

Hmm, don't see much ppl sapu-ing YTL Power share though they have announced the final dividend (is it 7.5 cents?). Perhaps the windfall tax is doing its unjustice to many of the IPP.

By the way, does anyone know why YTL Power is not paying the first installment for the windfall tax? I don't seem to see their name on the list published in theSTAR. Is it because they are exempted or there is no effect on them (due to lower earnings?)?

please dun look down the special tax.
The account is refer to half year only.
The tax will be charges start July 2008 ....

Cherroy, since the minimum brokerage went effective, I seem not affected by it.
I did my transactions like normal through my remisier, but sometimes i did get charged less than RM40 for my smaller trades.
I am still being charged the usual 0.7% by my broker. How come it's like that?

If one always transact more than roughly 5K per transaction, it won't have any effect.

I don't know your exact situation, more details will help to clear air.

0.7% is pretty high, the 2 remisiers I usually deal with is imposing 0.6% only, but this rate can be varied depended on investment bank and remisier themselves. But for sure, max is 0.7%.

Most of the time, my trades are above RM10,000 for second-liners, except for those penny stocks (which would normally be less than RM5,000).
I am registered under a nominee account, so I guess that was why my brokerage is higher?

Then change brokers lor.

Seriously, sometimes you have to ask for it, especially your transaction record is good one (pay on time) should get 0.6%, as nowadays, commission rate is no longer like last time out which is fixed. Now, it is fully negotiable. But for small fish for retailers, generally and majority is 0.6% and 0.42% (online, 30% discount).

It depends on individual and investment bank.

PS: I had no experience with nominee account as personally never like nominee account, all are direct account with investment banks.

The cash dividend for this quarter is only 3.75 cents or RM0.0375 per share.

The windfall tax is going to shave off a good 10% of it's yearly nett profits as the estimated tax is around RM90 - 120 million.

According to The Edge Daily, YTLPOWER already paid the tax but never released the information how much they paid.

As long as you are IPP you got to pay windfall tax, no one can be exempted. Unless you are making a loss. But it is not logic at all... The reason behind IPP windfall tax is government is seeing IPP enjoying lucrative earnings for the past decades... thats the reason y windfall tax is being impose.

I think you better go see the source of income of YTL power before you make an assumption on the effect on windfall tax on YTL power.

This post has been edited by darkknight81: Aug 20 2008, 08:21 PM

Haha, I don't think I need to change broker lo. For big transactions, I will have to pay 0.1% more, but for small transaction, I won't be charged the minimum RM40 So, I lose one side, but gain on the other side But, I just want to find out, is it possible that anyone escape the minimum RM40 ruling?

Is it possible to negotiate the fee of 0.7% to 0.6%??

I'm using OSK and it's automatically 0.6%. Maybe I talk very nicely to my brokers and flirt with them a bit. haha

My remisier is a guy ....

Can i change to OSK as now i am not using OSK? Can i sell my shares at OSK which i bought at current broker? I think can right ?

This post has been edited by darkknight81: Aug 20 2008, 08:53 PM

Cannot, you need to transfer the shares in your current CDS to the newly open OSK CDS account before you can sell, otherwise at OSK side, you are deem short-sell even though you have the shares at other investment bank CDS account.

Most I encounter with or experience with the investment bank, they are charging at 0.6% throughout even for new customers, so don't need to negotiate either.

Then tell you remiser, how about doing more research after trading hour, so we come out at night to have a drink to discuss.

Yup look like got to do some research with him

Haha why don't you try flirting with him although he is a guy, you'd never know...

So OT liau

him? I taught is 'her' ler.

Better be "he" If is leng loi later not so good to negotiate
Some more my gf might angry if i keep on calling a "she" remisier.

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Added on August 21, 2008, 8:36 pmIPP windfall tax as compare to this:

<<An 11.7% decrease from RM1,175.6 million (US$356.3 mil) for the same period last year, due to an exceptional tax credit of RM132.9 million recognised in the 4th quarter of the 2007 financial year, relating to the release of a deferred tax provision arising from the change in corporation tax rates in the UK. >>

I think this will give more impact on YTL power earnings compare to IPP windfall tax



This post has been edited by darkknight81: Aug 23 2008, 12:02 PM

Added on August 22, 2008, 7:59 pmMerrill Lynch : YTL Power Intl - Meeting expectations; Buy for 10 .6% net yield

YTL Power International Bhd.
Meeting expectations; Buy for 10.6% net yield

Accounting for 100% of net profit (NP) forecasts
YTL Power (YTLP) NP of RM1,038mn was 12% lower than FY07's NP. Stripping
off one-off tax credit of RM133mn in FY07, YTLP FY08 NP would have registered
zero growth, in line with our and consensus forecasts accounting for 100% of
forecasts. YTLP declared a final DPS of 3.75sen (tax exempt), within forecasts.
We are keeping a Buy on YTLP for its achievable dividend yield of 10.6% (net).

Overseas ventures soften domestic weaknesses
For FY08, wholly owned subsidiary Wessex Water (2% growth muted by stronger
RM vs £) and 35%-associate PT Jawa Power (13% growth supported by higher
bonus) cushioned YTLP's domestic core operations weaknesses (down 8%).
YTLP 4Q NP of RM280mn, though improved 1%QoQ, was 5%YoY weaker due to
lower contribution from Wessex Water and domestic IPP (20-24% lower).

FY09 NP should be flat
We expect flat FY09 NP of RM1,027mn. The potential improvements from
overseas ventures would likely be stripped off by the 30% windfall tax announced
by the government (June 2008). IPPs have commenced their first monthly
payment mid-August 2008. We forecast windfall levy of RM90mn for FY09.
Malaysia IPP now accounts for less than 20% of YTLP's earnings.

On the prowl for new concessions
Despite the regulatory setback in Malaysia, YTLP is still actively bidding for
projects overseas, most recent - Senoko Power, Singapore (estimated price tag
of US$3bn). With YTLP's current cash balance of RM9.4bn, it has sufficient
ammo for future acquisitions. Our RNAV based PO of RM2.07 offers 22% upside
potential. YTLP is trading at PE09E of 11.5x, a discount to its historical average of
15.2x.

Cheeroy,

You were right about the bond thing with YTLPOWER and I was originally right about the warrant strike price bringing in the money.

I re-read the report and found that I missed the RM2.2 bil in bonds they issued at the same time the warrants was issued. And tally with their liability and asset went up together. Liability in terms of bonds and asset in terms of cash.

Warrant strike price is still to be their future capital as and when it is fully converted. Like we discussed earlier, booking their capital for the future.

Just FYI.

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Added on August 24, 2008, 12:53 pmNot really, that was expected as a 1 off gain.

Windfall Tax was the un-expected thing. So far I haven't found any source or article pointing to how much they actually paid for their 1st windfall installment.





This post has been edited by skiddtrader: Aug 24 2008, 12:53 PM

Noted, thanks for the information. That's where forum and discussion can help each other.

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Added on August 24, 2008, 12:53 pm
Not really, that was expected as a 1 off gain.

Windfall Tax was the un-expected thing. So far I haven't found any source or article pointing to how much they actually paid for their 1st windfall installment.

[/quote]

http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?f...17&sec=business

I say so base on this article. Pls go through and give your comment on this

This post has been edited by darkknight81: Aug 24 2008, 07:31 PM

share didven of 1 treasury share for every 40 existing ordinary shares
09/092008

what does it mean?

It means if you are holding one share you will be entitled for 1/40 share
If you are holding 40 share you will be given 1 share as a dividend instead of cash dividend.

so is something like odd lot?
if i have 15 lot of share is equal how many share?
is it 15000?

Yup. You gonna have odd lots. But its ok one. If you want to sell next time sell it one go.

[quote=darkknight81,Aug 24 2008, 07:29 PM]

---

Added on August 24, 2008, 12:53 pm
Not really, that was expected as a 1 off gain.

Windfall Tax was the un-expected thing. So far I haven't found any source or article pointing to how much they actually paid for their 1st windfall installment.

[/quote]

http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?f...17&sec=business

I say so base on this article. Pls go through and give your comment on this

[/quote]


Thanks for the link. Yeah that was the estimated amount of tax that is to be paid. I've seen values from RM90 mil to RM130 for YTLPOWER, so far this article provided the lowest estimated tax needed to pay. If I'm not mistaken, payments are every month so for 1 year, there are 12 payments.

A rough estimation can be made on how much they are suppose to pay base on their 1st month payments which I multiplied by 12 months to get the total tax needed to pay.

The 1st installment payments are highlighted in this article in here.

http://integrastock.blogspot.com/2008/07/u...ing-impact.html

Skidtrader you seems to be interested to this stock also? Am i right?

This post has been edited by darkknight81: Aug 25 2008, 07:00 PM

Thanks for the correction and information. It is just my curiousity how will the windfall tax affect YTLPower since there is no such report on its payment figure and how it will impact the cash-flow, divident, etc.


I tried TheEDGE, TheEDGE daily, local newspaper and can't seem to find any reports on YTLPower and its impact from windfall tax and hence I am here seeking more info from fellow forumers. Do you know of any other means to get those reports?


Where did you get this info? Is it the latest round of rewarding the shareholders? Is it confirm?

If you really want to find out more about this company, you can ask your remisier. They sure got more detail info one..
The share redistribution is confirmed already . you can see it in their homepage.

http://www.ytlcommunity.com/commnews/ytlauspower.asp