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Discussion Football teams without strikers, 4-6-0's

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TSFollowN
post Jun 12 2008, 08:14 PM, updated 18y ago

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The end of forward thinking
Football without strikers seems unthinkable, but according to Carlos Alberto Parreira, it's the future.
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/06/...d_thinking.html

QUOTE
Five years ago, at the coaching conference he hosts in Rio de Janeiro, Carlos Alberto Parreira made a prediction that left the room stunned. Discussing how tactics might evolve, the coach who had led Brazil to victory in the 1994 World Cup, suggested that the formation of the future might be 4-6-0.

True, wingers had once seemed sacrosanct, only to be refined out of existence and then reinvented. Yes, playmakers were undergoing a similar process of redevelopment. But centre-forwards? Could football really function with no centre-forward - without a recognised forward line at all? The answer came in this season's Champions League final: yes, it could. Manchester United won the world's premier football tournament with a team that featured no out-and-out striker.

Such radicalism remains rare, for while it may represent the highest form of the game, a system without forwards is hugely difficult to play effectively. United scored six goals in their first eight games of last season and ended up forlornly using John O'Shea as a central striker in their goalless opening-day draw with Reading, who finished with the second-worst defensive record in the league. It takes time for effective fluidity to be achieved and that is why, given the limited number of training sessions available, no nation at Euro 2008 will follow the no-striker route.

Even in international football, though, strikers are vanishing. Of the 16 teams in Austria and Switzerland, fewer than half are likely to start with two forwards. The first international match, between Scotland and England in 1872, involved 13 forwards; you will not have seen that many in the Euros until the fourth or fifth day of the tournament. Not that a surfeit of strikers necessarily means plenty of goals: that first international finished 0-0.

Roma showed the way two seasons ago, fielding as their lone front man, Francesco Totti, who had previously been seen as a classic trequartista, operating in the 'hole' between attack and midfield. Totti was not fixed. Operating as a focal point as, say, Didier Drogba was for Chelsea, he held up the ball, drifted, and created space for his team-mates to break into. Roma's 4-1-4-1 formation frequently became 4-1-5-0. United beat Roma (minus Totti) 7-1 last year in a Champions League quarter-final, but Sir Alex Ferguson, having broadly turned away from 4-4-2 after a humbling 3-2 defeat by Real Madrid in 2000, had seen enough. Roma's was the model to follow.

For much of the season just finished, United deployed Wayne Rooney as the nominal front man. He constantly foraged deep and perhaps he has, as Ferguson suggested, been 'too unselfish'. But it was Rooney's movement, and the intelligence of his interchanges with Carlos Tevez, that created much of the space for Cristiano Ronaldo, who profited with 42 goals. United's system was, in effect, 4-2-4-0. At times, particularly in Europe, Ferguson fielded an extra holder in midfield, which usually meant Ronaldo central in the Totti role (4-3-3-0).

That in itself is nothing new. The Austrian 'Wunderteam' of the early 1930s had great success with Mathias Sindelar, a centre-forward who constantly dropped deep, and Vsevolod Bobrov did similarly for the Dynamo Moscow tourists who so delighted British crowds in 1945. It was then Nandor Hidegkuti's role as a deep-lying centre-forward that so perplexed England when Hungary won 6-3 at Wembley in 1953. 'The tragedy to me,' said England's centre-half Harry Johnston, 'was the utter helplessness... not being able to do anything about it.' If Johnston followed Hidegkuti, he left a hole in the centre of England's rearguard; if he stayed put, Hidegkuti roamed free.

The solution to that problem was zonal marking, developed by Zeze Moreira in Brazil in the 1950s. The notion that Brazilian football is only about artistry and free expression is laughable. The history of tactics is the story of the attempt to achieve the greatest balance of attacking fluidity and defensive solidity, and the reason Pele and Garrincha, say, were given such freedom was that their formation allowed them to do so. By the time of their first World Cup win in 1958, Brazil were comfortable in a zonal back four while the rest of the world persisted with the man-to-man back three of the W-M system.

That was when the systematisation of football, the acknowledgement that the game was not simply a matter of individual battles, but about the most efficacious deployment of players, really took hold. It had begun in the 1930s in Switzerland, where Karl Rappan, a former Austria international, had grown frustrated that his semi-professional Servette side were regularly overpowered by fitter opponents. He introduced a sweeper, providing additional cover for three defensive markers, and encouraged his sides to sit back and let the opposition pass the ball in front of them. Similar thinking would later lead in Italy to catenaccio.

As nutrition and the understanding of physical preparation improved in the 1960s, the great Muscovite coach Viktor Maslov introduced 'pressing' at Dynamo Kiev, which may be seen as the birth of modern football. His sides would hound the opposition in possession, but their system was good enough that players covered those pressuring the man with the ball, closing up gaps that might otherwise have been exploited. That mode of football developed at Dynamo Kiev under their great coach Valeriy Lobanovskyi and at Ajax under Rinus Michels. The Ajax style may have grown up almost organically among players who had played together from a young age, while Lobanovskyi, pioneering the use of computer technology in coaching, imposed his vision on Dynamo Kiev. For all the difference of ideology, though, the way the sides played was almost identical.

That style reached its apogee with Arrigo Sacchi's AC Milan, as they won the European Cup in 1989 and 1990 - the last team to win Europe's top trophy in successive seasons. He demanded that, when his players were not in possession, there should never be more than 25 metres between his two forwards and his back four. 'All of our players,' he said, 'always had four reference points: the ball, the space, the opponent and his team-mates.' There were, in other words, no fixed positions: everything was relative.

That his philosophy was effective can hardly be doubted, but it did not make his system popular with the players. Ruud Gullit, in particular, objected to the repetitive training sessions necessary to develop the required level of mutual understanding.

'I told him that five organised players would always beat 10 disorganised ones,' Sacchi explained. 'And I proved it to them. I took five players: Giovanni Galli in goal, Tassotti, Maldini, Costacurta and Baresi. They had 10 players: Gullit, Van Basten, Rijkaard, Virdis, Evani, Ancelotti, Colombo, Donadoni, Lantignotti and Mannari. They had 15 minutes to score against my five players and the only rule was that if we won possession or they lost the ball, they had to start over from 10 metres inside their own half. I did this all the time and they never scored. Not once.'

Sacchi insists that football has not advanced from his great side. 'Many believe that football is about the players expressing themselves,' he said. 'But that's not the case. Or, rather, it's not the case in and of itself. The player needs to express himself within the parameters laid out by the manager.'

Sacchi is scathing of the modern trend for 4-2-3-1, believing the use of two midfield 'holders' to provide a platform for the creators as pandering to the egos of those attacking players - which may explain the brevity of his spell as sporting director at Real Madrid in the galacticos era, when Claude Makelele was expected to provide defensive cover for Zinedine Zidane and Luis Figo. Like Lobanovskyi, he values 'universality', those willing take on more than one role.

Perhaps Sacchi is fundamentalist in that regard, for United's system is based on multifunctional players: a winger who can play as a centre-forward and centre-forwards who can play as attacking midfielders. Even the two 'holders' are more varied than Makelele. Universality breeds fluency, and that means that the one-dimensional centre-forward of old, the target-man or the poacher, is becoming a thing of the past. Maslov, who effectively invented 4-4-2, and was criticised for it, foresaw modern developments. 'Football is like an aeroplane,' he said. 'As velocities increase, so does air resistance, so you have to make the head more streamlined.'

That said, 4-6-0 is no panacea, as the former Scotland coach Andy Roxburgh, who is now Uefa's technical director, explained. 'The six players in midfield all could rotate, attack and defend,' he said. 'But you'd need to have six Decos in midfield - he doesn't just attack, he runs, tackles and covers all over the pitch.' Deco is a classic example of a universal player, something he combines with high levels of physical fitness.'

At a lecture he gave in Belgrade last year, Roberto Mancini, who has just led Internazionale to their third straight title and is in the running to replace Avram Grant at Chelsea, insisted that the likely evolution of football will be more to do with improved physical preparation than with tactical development. It is debatable, though, whether it is possible to separate the two: the style of Dynamo Kiev and Ajax only became possible as rationing came to an end and sports science developed, for 'pressing' places great physical demands on players. In a fully systematised team, nobody can be carried - everybody must be carrying out their share of work.

A system with no forwards places a premium on fast, accurate passing through the midfield, which is fine on a good day. There will always, though, be days when the passing fails to click, or when a team is forced on to the back foot and needs an outlet for holding the ball and relieving the pressure. Ferguson has acknowledged that he is in the market for a centre-forward this summer to fulfil the role that Louis Saha - fast, mobile and decent with his back to goal - would have played had he been fit.

As fitness improves, so the demands on forwards change, not least because defences cannot be relied upon to lose shape as they become exhausted. Modern centre-forwards must be universalists, a hybrid of the old strike-partnerships. Drogba and Emmanuel Adebayor are both battering-rams and goalscorers. A Thierry Henry or a Dimitar Berbatov is capable of dropping deep or pulling wide, as adept at playing the final ball as taking a chance. Somewhere in between the two extremes are ranged Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Samuel Eto'o and Fernando Torres. Just as wingers and midfielders had to, forwards are having to reinvent themselves.

What, then, can we expect to see in the way of tactics in Austria and Switzerland? Neither Sacchi nor Lobanovskyi enjoyed significant success at international level. It is, Sacchi admitted, 'impossible' to develop a fully systematised approach in the time available to international coaches. So the Euros will be more about individuals than the Champions League, about the sort of gap-plugging Sacchi so despises. There will be less fluidity which is why, for instance, Ronaldo can become isolated for Portugal in a way he rarely is for United.

'Systems are dying,' said Slaven Bilic, the Croatia coach. 'It's about the movement of 10 players now.'

Even in international football, the tendency is for football to follow Maslov's aeroplane, and to bank on players breaking from midfield to supplement a diminishing number of forwards.

It is increasingly looking as though Parreira may be proved right.


Interesting read, so have your say. I'll provide my own input later because I'm still reading about history of formations and I must say I can relate to Slaven Bilic.
beefburger
post Jun 12 2008, 08:30 PM

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Interesting read. Personally, I do not think that it would happen that there will be no strikers at all in a team.

There will definitely be more and more hybrid players like Rooney and Tevez but teams will still benefit from an out-an-out striker. Tactics will change alot especially the defence when defending against people like Luca Toni, Peter Crouch or Ruud Van Nistelrooy.
verx
post Jun 12 2008, 08:31 PM

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If there's one reason why I have a dislike for formations it's because of this. Numbers like 4-4-2 or 4-6-0 never tell the whole story. It's a very simplistic form to represent a tactic. Even when u say 4-6-0 doesn't mean that there are no strikers/forwards. They just rotate among themselves.

But I believe that the forward position is still one of the most if not the most important position in football. You still need a reference up front to play off. Whether that reference is a central old fashioned striker or a forward that drifts to the flanks it doesn't matter.
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post Jun 12 2008, 08:56 PM

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I realised this when Man Utd sold Beckham. Solsjaer, Scholes and Giggs playing in a system with 3 forwards rotating and playing off RvN. One moment, Solsjaer was a winger, the next, he was creeping in and poaching off loose balls. I realised then that this would be hard for RvN to fit in as he didn't have the fluidity that this system demanded. So when RvN left, I was sad, but I new it was to both sides benefit. Saha had the mobility and was more fluid in blending in with the other forwards.
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post Jun 12 2008, 09:21 PM

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I won't say no strikers. Just that the strikers are being brought down to attacking midfielder instead of forward. Just like sometimes SAF likes to bring down Rooney on right/left flank or Anelka on left flank.

This post has been edited by Belphegor: Jun 12 2008, 09:22 PM
verx
post Jun 12 2008, 09:26 PM

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QUOTE(+Newbie+ @ Jun 12 2008, 08:56 PM)
I realised this when Man Utd sold Beckham. Solsjaer, Scholes and Giggs playing in a system with 3 forwards rotating and playing off RvN. One moment, Solsjaer was a winger, the next, he was creeping in and poaching off loose balls. I realised then that this would be hard for RvN to fit in as he didn't have the fluidity that this system demanded. So when RvN left, I was sad, but I new it was to both sides benefit. Saha had the mobility and was more fluid in blending in with the other forwards.
*
If you've watched the way RVN has played with Madrid you'll realise how wrong that statement is. RVN's ability was never fully exploited at Man Utd. At that time Fergie's tactics were rigid and he just stuck him right up top. It's why almost all his goals for MU were from inside the box. With Madrid he's given more freedom. RVN is deceptively agile and his technique is better than what most ppl in England give him credit for. It's why he's so good at leading the line. If he were playing for Man Utd now he would still have fitted in perfectly and you guys would have been more complete as a team. If you watched his recent performance for Holland carefully where they use a similar free 4-2-3-1 system you can clearly see what u guys are missing out on.
disco333
post Jun 12 2008, 09:50 PM

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Roma play a 4-6-0 or something close to it. Every time I watch them play, I ask where is the striker. Taddei plays furthest forward whilst Totti acts as the creative player...
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post Jun 12 2008, 10:19 PM

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QUOTE(disco333 @ Jun 12 2008, 09:50 PM)
Roma play a 4-6-0 or something close to it. Every time I watch them play, I ask where is the striker. Taddei plays furthest forward whilst Totti acts as the creative player...
*
it basically works this way : Totti is the lone man upfront, with a trident that usually consist of Perrotta, Mancini, n Taddei behind him. when Totti gets the ball, he will hold it up n draw away the backline to allow those behind him to roam forward to open space. n if he cant find any open man, he'll juz go by himself or pass back.

of coz there is a major setback in this way : it wouldn't work good if Totti is not there bcoz of his vision, ability to hold up n the passing.

another read here :

Roaming Roma find follower in Sir Alex Ferguson
creap
post Jun 12 2008, 10:46 PM

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QUOTE(+Newbie+ @ Jun 12 2008, 08:56 PM)
I realised this when Man Utd sold Beckham. Solsjaer, Scholes and Giggs playing in a system with 3 forwards rotating and playing off RvN. One moment, Solsjaer was a winger, the next, he was creeping in and poaching off loose balls. I realised then that this would be hard for RvN to fit in as he didn't have the fluidity that this system demanded. So when RvN left, I was sad, but I new it was to both sides benefit. Saha had the mobility and was more fluid in blending in with the other forwards.
*
RVN's departure was never due to his inability to fit into our system. He was sold because he wanted to leave.

On the topic, 4-6-0 like verx mentioned, will not show us the actual story of how a team plays. If a team plays 3-5-2, does it really mean they are playing with 3 defender? Not really, they are probably playing with 2 attacking full backs. So, then, are they playing with 5 defenders? Not really again, as they are running up the flanks during attacks, like a normal winger.

A 4-6-0 therefore, can only mean that the 6 midfielders are switching attacking roles, and thus making it hard for man-mark (Which team do it nowadays anyway). smile.gif
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post Jun 12 2008, 11:40 PM

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QUOTE(Chrisky @ Jun 12 2008, 10:19 PM)
it basically works this way : Totti is the lone man upfront, with a trident that usually consist of Perrotta, Mancini, n Taddei behind him. when Totti gets the ball, he will hold it up n draw away the backline to allow those behind him to roam forward to open space. n if he cant find any open man, he'll juz go by himself or pass back.

of coz there is a major setback in this way : it wouldn't work good if Totti is not there bcoz of his vision, ability to hold up n the passing.

another read here :

Roaming Roma find follower in Sir Alex Ferguson
*
this remind me days of henry + bergkamp, sometimes both of them are drop deep, while pires and ljungberg waiting for thru from flank, and some times vieira shadow run toward to penalty box
Hevrn
post Jun 13 2008, 12:11 AM

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All those formations we see are just on paper. When the game starts, things can change. Managers can decide to poke the opposition and find their weaknesses by trying out strategies and switching players around the field. Ronaldo starting on the right doesn't mean that Ashley Cole will be the only one given a rough time. Players tend to drift in and out of their positions, following (or not following at times biggrin.gif) the instructions of their managers.

Having a traditional centre forward is a necessity in my books. It was something lacking in Man United when Ruud left for Madrid. These are players the team can feed off and trust to hold the ball upfront. These are players who are very good with high balls and are the biggest threat during a corner or free kick. These are players who can finish off the slightest opportunity.
EmperorMeng
post Jun 13 2008, 11:20 AM

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yes i agree, the future is players who are all-rounders.
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post Jun 13 2008, 11:29 AM

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Call me old school but I still like the idea of having out-and-out strikers in my team. It will at least give me options off the bench as a manager. On a positive note, long balls will be used less as there isn't a target man up-front to aim for. The ball will stay on the deck more and teams will have to make brilliant runs and execute pin-point passes to open up defences. Did anyone see Iniesta's through pass to Villa against Russia?

If the trend continues, will there still be a place for big lumbering forwards in the game (i.e. Crouch, Toni & Koller) or will they all have to play either as defensive midfielders (i.e. Engelaar, Viera, Boupa Diop) or at the back (Knight, Mertesacker, Metzelder)?
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post Jun 13 2008, 11:37 AM

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QUOTE(EmperorMeng @ Jun 13 2008, 11:20 AM)
yes i agree, the future is players who are all-rounders.
*
I just don't see this happening. No matter how hard u train players, some will always be better at others at different aspects of the game. The only thing that is universal is the fitness levels. Modern football now places more emphasis on the ability to cover more ground.

QUOTE(Duke Red @ Jun 13 2008, 11:29 AM)
Call me old school but I still like the idea of having out-and-out strikers in my team. It will at least give me options off the bench as a manager. On a positive note, long balls will be used less as there isn't a target man up-front to aim for. The ball will stay on the deck more and teams will have to make brilliant runs and execute pin-point passes to open up defences. Did anyone see Iniesta's through pass to Villa against Russia?

If the trend continues, will there still be a place for big lumbering forwards in the game (i.e. Crouch, Toni & Koller) or will they all have to play either as defensive midfielders (i.e. Engelaar, Viera, Boupa Diop) or at the back (Knight, Mertesacker, Metzelder)?
*
There will always be a place for big forwards. Because size is not the first thing u judge when it comes to forwards. The ability to finish, make off the ball runs, holding up the ball with your back facing to goal are still the more important attributes when it comes to strikers.
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post Jun 13 2008, 12:41 PM

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from what i see in modern football,it's all about tactics and how the manager/coach use his players.sometimes,team that use forward that roaming freely in the field can look more dangerous as the opposing defence not only has to content with the forward but the midfielders that are going upfront.the opposing defence can easily be outnumbered here and not just by counter-attack plays.
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post Jun 13 2008, 12:54 PM

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QUOTE(EmperorMeng @ Jun 13 2008, 11:20 AM)
yes i agree, the future is players who are all-rounders.
*
like john o'shea brows.gif
btw, this idea could be possible but not feasible; due to the human nature.
ie; some are 'a born protective, thus, they could be a good defender. some others are 'a born predator, thus make a good striker.
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post Jun 13 2008, 03:43 PM

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QUOTE(EmperorMeng @ Jun 13 2008, 11:20 AM)
yes i agree, the future is players who are all-rounders.
*
I'm an advocate of specialization in the workplace. I'd rather have a master of a certain discipline doing only the thing he does best then have an all rounder running around trying to lend a hand in every department. Not everyone can excel in everything, so I'd rather have a striker spend more time on his finishing then try to improve his tackling.
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post Jun 14 2008, 02:08 AM

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QUOTE(Hevrn @ Jun 13 2008, 03:43 PM)
I'm an advocate of specialization in the workplace. I'd rather have a master of a certain discipline doing only the thing he does best then have an all rounder running around trying to lend a hand in every department. Not everyone can excel in everything, so I'd rather have a striker spend more time on his finishing then try to improve his tackling.
*
say a 4-2-4-0 formation
i dont expect the 4 forward mf to be back tackling.
but i do expect them to be back pressuring.
and they shud spend their time traing on finishing.
but if a finisher can also helpout in the mf, why not? its like having an extra man
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post Jun 14 2008, 10:58 AM

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All this talk about playing with no strikers and RVN put in another performance to show why it's still important to have a reference up front. biggrin.gif
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post Jun 14 2008, 12:34 PM

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is a bit odd for fielding whole team midfielders and defenders without a striker up front waiting for ball to score...
hmm.gif
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post Jun 14 2008, 12:55 PM

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referring to emperormeng's post,
u can be all rounders but cannot be perfect at all position
like rooney he can be CF,SS,LW,RW,CM, AM but his best position is always ss
gerrard can play well as SS, LW, RW, CM, DM, AM but at AM in 3 men midfield he can always use his full potential
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post Jun 14 2008, 02:35 PM

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QUOTE(verx @ Jun 14 2008, 10:58 AM)
All this talk about playing with no strikers and RVN put in another performance to show why it's still important to have a reference up front. biggrin.gif
*
Exactly. The Alan Shearers, the Van Nistelrooys, the Luca Tonis. All of these players are essential in a team becoz they're usually the best at putting them away and playing their role as the furthest man forward.
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post Jun 14 2008, 03:06 PM

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QUOTE(verx @ Jun 12 2008, 08:31 PM)
But I believe that the forward position is still one of the most if not the most important position in football. You still need a reference up front to play off. Whether that reference is a central old fashioned striker or a forward that drifts to the flanks it doesn't matter.

I just don't see this happening. No matter how hard u train players, some will always be better at others at different aspects of the game. The only thing that is universal is the fitness levels. Modern football now places more emphasis on the ability to cover more ground.
*
QUOTE(Hevrn @ Jun 13 2008, 12:11 AM)
Having a traditional centre forward is a necessity in my books. It was something lacking in Man United when Ruud left for Madrid. These are players the team can feed off and trust to hold the ball upfront.


What exactly are your definitions of a reference? A player to hold the ball to wait for the the arrival of his teammates? Why does the modern game need a striker when all round fitness levels are increased? More pace and more movement mean grounds are covered in less time. Holding compounds the movement, not help. I can't see this working for an offensive team, only a defensive team with a lone striker upfront.

QUOTE
These are players who are very good with high balls and are the biggest threat during a corner or free kick. These are players who can finish off the slightest opportunity.
*
I wouldn't call them the biggest threats because strikers are marked tight, which is why defenders run up to help score during corners.

QUOTE(Hevrn @ Jun 13 2008, 03:43 PM)
I'm an advocate of specialization in the workplace. I'd rather have a master of a certain discipline doing only the thing he does best then have an all rounder running around trying to lend a hand in every department. Not everyone can excel in everything, so I'd rather have a striker spend more time on his finishing then try to improve his tackling.
*
This is akin to saying, players should be players but the fact is players these days help newer teammates settle in and provide pointers/guide youngsters.

A niche area is fine and dandy, but if you get too rigid, its bad.


QUOTE(verx @ Jun 14 2008, 10:58 AM)
All this talk about playing with no strikers and RVN put in another performance to show why it's still important to have a reference up front. biggrin.gif
*
QUOTE(Hevrn @ Jun 14 2008, 02:35 PM)
Exactly. The Alan Shearers, the Van Nistelrooys, the Luca Tonis. All of these players are essential in a team becoz they're usually the best at putting them away and playing their role as the furthest man forward.
*
1st goal was from sloppy defending by Malouda.
3rd goal was from a combination of Sneijder and Robben from the kick off.
4th goal was from an individual effort from Sneijder.

What RVN performance do you guys speak of? He played almost no role in the goals scored by Holland, cept for the 2nd goal by Van Persie where he shielded a ball at the byline, not upfront. Even a winger/fullback does that.

Moving up the field quickly is not a problem because we have marauding fullbacks and attacking midfielders aplenty in the modern game. I don't think strikers are a necessity, but just a luxury to have as the only thing nice to have from a striker would be his instincts. Holding the ball is a moot point, I would say.

OT: Sorry Duke Red, some stuffs cropped up and the manager thread is now full with flamers. I'll be glad to share opinions with you the next time a clean discussion comes around.
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post Jun 14 2008, 03:56 PM

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QUOTE(FollowN @ Jun 14 2008, 03:06 PM)
What exactly are your definitions of a reference? A player to hold the ball to wait for the the arrival of his teammates? Why does the modern game need a striker when all round fitness levels are increased? More pace and more movement mean grounds are covered in less time. Holding compounds the movement, not help. I can't see this working for an offensive team, only a defensive team with a lone striker upfront.
A reference is someone upfront to hold the ball up or to play the ball to. It's an important element of the modern game. Even if u cover more ground with today's fitness levels, u still can't beat the pace of a ball that is played directly to the frontline. And of course it's a big help when it comes to ball retention which is fundamental for an offensive team to succeed.

QUOTE
A niche area is fine and dandy, but if you get too rigid, its bad.
1st goal was from sloppy defending by Malouda.
3rd goal was from a combination of Sneijder and Robben from the kick off.
4th goal was from an individual effort from Sneijder.

What RVN performance do you guys speak of? He played almost no role in the goals scored by Holland, cept for the 2nd goal by Van Persie where he shielded a ball at the byline, not upfront. Even a winger/fullback does that.
Nobody is talking about rigid strikers just waiting for the ball to be played to their feet.
And if you do not realise how important RVN was for Holland's performance last night then I'm sorry but u have a poorer understanding of the game than I initially assumed.

QUOTE
Moving up the field quickly is not a problem because we have marauding fullbacks and attacking midfielders aplenty in the modern game. I don't think strikers are a necessity, but just a luxury to have as the only thing nice to have from a striker would be his instincts. Holding the ball is a moot point, I would say.
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Holding up the ball is just as important as having fullbacks and midfielders make off the ball runs. And I'm not talking about just holding up the ball with your back facing the goal. Different strikers do it differently. If it was Torres he wants the ball played beyond the backline where he can exploit his pace, but he's still acting as a reference. If it was Henry he would wait at the left flank for the ball. Raul and Totti would drop slightly deeper to get the ball. They are all achieving the same objectives through different means. If you just want to rely on players coming from deep when you're on the attack you're just going to make it extremely easy for an organised defence to shut you down. No team in the modern game don't play with some sort of reference up front. Even Roma with their supposedly strikerless formation actually plays Totti in an advanced position.

This post has been edited by verx: Jun 14 2008, 03:56 PM
TSFollowN
post Jun 14 2008, 06:03 PM

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QUOTE(verx @ Jun 14 2008, 03:56 PM)
A reference is someone upfront to hold the ball up or to play the ball to. It's an important element of the modern game. Even if u cover more ground with today's fitness levels, u still can't beat the pace of a ball that is played directly to the frontline. And of course it's a big help when it comes to ball retention which is fundamental for an offensive team to succeed.


If you noticed, I didn't dismiss the position upfront. Instead I discarded the striker role i.e you can replace a striker with anyone offensive minded upfront.

QUOTE
Nobody is talking about rigid strikers just waiting for the ball to be played to their feet.
And if you do not realise how important RVN was for Holland's performance last night then I'm sorry but u have a poorer understanding of the game than I initially assumed.


He talked about role specialization and the way he worded it, I'd assume he was placing more emphasis than necessary on the finishing part. Also, I watched the match twice; one live, and the other one more in the morning when I got up. I'd be glad to hear from your perspective about RVN because I couldn't see how he was the most important man for Holland on the field, he did what any decent strikers would do; positional intelligent running.

QUOTE
Holding up the ball is just as important as having fullbacks and midfielders make off the ball runs. And I'm not talking about just holding up the ball with your back facing the goal. Different strikers do it differently. If it was Torres he wants the ball played beyond the backline where he can exploit his pace, but he's still acting as a reference. If it was Henry he would wait at the left flank for the ball. Raul and Totti would drop slightly deeper to get the ball. They are all achieving the same objectives through different means. If you just want to rely on players coming from deep when you're on the attack you're just going to make it extremely easy for an organised defence to shut you down. No team in the modern game don't play with some sort of reference up front. Even Roma with their supposedly strikerless formation actually plays Totti in an advanced position.
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Nope, again I didn't dismiss the position, only the need for strikers.
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post Jun 14 2008, 08:19 PM

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QUOTE(FollowN @ Jun 14 2008, 06:03 PM)
If you noticed, I didn't dismiss the position upfront. Instead I discarded the striker role i.e you can replace a striker with anyone offensive minded upfront.
He talked about role specialization and the way he worded it, I'd assume he was placing more emphasis than necessary on the finishing part. Also, I watched the match twice; one live, and the other one more in the morning when I got up. I'd be glad to hear from your perspective about RVN because I couldn't see how he was the most important man for Holland on the field, he did what any decent strikers would do; positional intelligent running.
Nope, again I didn't dismiss the position, only the need for strikers.
*
By saying they are a luxury aren't you are dismissing the position?
When you say put anyone offensive minded upfront aren't they strikers as well?
A striker doesn't have to be an old fashioned centre forward only u know.
And I didn't say RVN was the most important man; I said he was an important element of the team. And he didn't just do what any decent striker would do. The French defenders could hardly get the ball off him. Compare that with Luca Toni's performance for Italy who did OK but was a step below what RVN showed for Holland.
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post Jun 15 2008, 02:20 AM

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QUOTE(+Newbie+ @ Jun 12 2008, 08:56 PM)
I realised this when Man Utd sold Beckham. Solsjaer, Scholes and Giggs playing in a system with 3 forwards rotating and playing off RvN. One moment, Solsjaer was a winger, the next, he was creeping in and poaching off loose balls. I realised then that this would be hard for RvN to fit in as he didn't have the fluidity that this system demanded. So when RvN left, I was sad, but I new it was to both sides benefit. Saha had the mobility and was more fluid in blending in with the other forwards.
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OT:
As a United fan, i'd appreciate if you could realize the proper way to spell The Legend's name is 'Solskjær'.
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post Jun 15 2008, 02:09 PM

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QUOTE(verx @ Jun 14 2008, 09:19 PM)
By saying they are a luxury aren't you are dismissing the position?
When you say put anyone offensive minded upfront aren't they strikers as well?
A striker doesn't have to be an old fashioned centre forward only u know.
And I didn't say RVN was the most important man; I said he was an important element of the team. And he didn't just do what any decent striker would do. The French defenders could hardly get the ball off him. Compare that with Luca Toni's performance for Italy who did OK but was a step below what RVN showed for Holland.
*
I have to agree with what Verx said; Ruud played an effective game against the French.

IMO, he held the forward line well; anticipated passes from de Jong, Engelaar and VDV, and shielded the ball superbly against (both!!) DMs, Toulalan and Makelele. You can see that he was lying deep for most of the time, and he provided the main focal point for the Dutch midfield to pass to.

Gotten hold of the ball, he then distributed the balls well back to Kuyt or Sneijder to run against French fullbacks. However, Kuyt is not exactly the phantom winger, so van Basten did well by putting on (two wingers!!) Robben and van Persie. By then, Oranje's offense was in free flow. Rest was history biggrin.gif

Even Ruud himself was quoted as 'very satisfied with his non-scoring performance' in an article from Soccernet.
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post Jun 15 2008, 04:13 PM

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QUOTE(verx @ Jun 14 2008, 08:19 PM)
By saying they are a luxury aren't you are dismissing the position?
When you say put anyone offensive minded upfront aren't they strikers as well?
A striker doesn't have to be an old fashioned centre forward only u know.
And I didn't say RVN was the most important man; I said he was an important element of the team. And he didn't just do what any decent striker would do. The French defenders could hardly get the ball off him. Compare that with Luca Toni's performance for Italy who did OK but was a step below what RVN showed for Holland.
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Strikers are a luxury because of their instincts, only that I said because equally good movements can be provided by offensive minded players. CRonaldo was placed upfront by Scolari in recent matches, would you call him a striker or an offensive minded player in general? You probably misunderstood because I agree on the need for a player upfront.

On RVN better than Toni, put RVN in the ineffectual Italian national team and he would be as effective as Toni. We can't pull blanket statements on individuals like that because football involves 11. Sorry misread the "important" part. Anyway, let's refer back to the Champions League match between Barcelona and Manchester United, where we both agreed on the toothless display produced by Barcelona. Had Holland not score even 1 against France, would you call RVN an important element for the Dutchies in the event of a draw or a loss? I place no major significance/importance in RVN's possessional play as the Dutch team yielded no goals but only possession from passing around, because if the team didn't score, RVN would look average instead of good. The Dutch team only yielded goals by exploiting the aging and lethargic French legs in counter-attacking displays.

If the answer is yes, I guess I can't debate much; I'd prefer to believe in my apparent poorer understanding of the game and stick to my opinions on the Barcelona/Manchester match as the entire attacking quartet of Barcelona instead of only Eto'o deserved the criticism. One man doesn't define the team, the team defines that one man in ideal football matches. But yes RVN looked good in an effective Dutch team and the entire squad including RVN deserves credit.

Added : RVN wasn't important in the goals aspect as highlighted by my given examples on goals scored a couple of replies ago, but he was important as the player upfront, that is all.

EDIT : Reworded for more clarity.

QUOTE(matt85 @ Jun 15 2008, 02:09 PM)
I have to agree with what Verx said; Ruud played an effective game against the French.

IMO, he held the forward line well; anticipated passes from de Jong, Engelaar and VDV, and shielded the ball superbly against (both!!) DMs, Toulalan and Makelele. You can see that he was lying deep for most of the time, and he provided the main focal point for the Dutch midfield to pass to.

Gotten hold of the ball, he then distributed the balls well back to Kuyt or Sneijder to run against French fullbacks. However, Kuyt is not exactly the phantom winger, so van Basten did well by putting on (two wingers!!) Robben and van  Persie. By then, Oranje's offense was in free flow. Rest was history  biggrin.gif

Even Ruud himself was quoted as 'very satisfied with his non-scoring performance' in an article from Soccernet.
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Refer to the paragraph on RVN in my response to verx.

This post has been edited by FollowN: Jun 15 2008, 04:46 PM
ponomariov
post Jun 16 2008, 02:29 PM

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actually positioning or formation was develop to save energy or stamina a player. Because the game have become more demanding, players stamina and physical appearance have increased dramatically. And I feel players are more all round now so.. less reliance on formation. So more players are going forward regardless the position they are in..

So there is forward. holding and defending
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post Jun 16 2008, 05:12 PM

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QUOTE(ponomariov @ Jun 16 2008, 02:29 PM)
actually positioning or formation was develop to save energy or stamina a player. Because the game have become more demanding, players stamina and physical appearance have increased dramatically. And I feel players are more all round now so.. less reliance on formation. So more players are going forward regardless the position they are in..

So there is forward. holding and defending
*
Pono wins.

This is the essence of 4-6-0. Not that there isn't any strikers, but there isn't one lazy bum up front who is a deadweight when the oppositon have posession. In attack, someone will still have to take up an advanced position to open up the play elsewhere & keep the defenders honest but in this case rather than a stationary target man, it will be whoever can reach the position in time, either it is a midfielder or the left back. Takes Dirk Kuyt like fitness to do this though.
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post Jun 16 2008, 05:17 PM

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QUOTE(berzerk @ Jun 16 2008, 05:12 PM)
Pono wins.

This is the essence of 4-6-0. Not that there isn't any strikers, but there isn't one lazy bum up front who is a deadweight when the oppositon have posession. In attack, someone will still have to take up an advanced position to open up the play elsewhere & keep the defenders honest but in this case rather than a stationary target man, it will be whoever can reach the position in time, either it is a midfielder or the left back. Takes Dirk Kuyt like fitness to do this though.
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Kuyt does alot what other player didn't, or can't do. He does backtrack alot even he was placed as a winger, support the backbone of defense, push forward, and assist the strikers.
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post Jun 16 2008, 10:13 PM

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QUOTE(Belphegor @ Jun 16 2008, 05:17 PM)
Kuyt does alot what other player didn't, or can't do. He does backtrack alot even he was placed as a winger, support the backbone of defense, push forward, and assist the strikers.
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yeah, hard to believe that he was a goal poacher in his feyenoord days.. won a golden boots once too
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post Jun 17 2008, 12:01 AM

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QUOTE(MADReaLJL @ Jun 16 2008, 11:13 PM)
yeah, hard to believe that he was a goal poacher in his feyenoord days.. won a golden boots once too
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now he really break everyone eyes did he? notworthy.gif
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post Jun 17 2008, 09:20 AM

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well i think it sounds funny..coz u wont a player to target to up front..
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post Jun 17 2008, 11:50 PM

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Talk dont mean much right now.

Its best if you guys could conjure up a tactical plan, a formation, and show how the team WITHOUT strikers or WITH strikers should play.

Strikers as in the targetman.

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post Jun 18 2008, 05:52 PM

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kuyt very hardworking and all .. but he not so effective in liverpool oh .. hmm.gif ...

anyways i think strikers are needed ... 1 or 2 .. only thing nowadays those forwards like to drop deep .. like pono said .. i think it makes more sense le ... last time those boot .. ball .. shirts all so heavy .. we cant expect the striker running here and there all the time
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post Jun 21 2008, 10:08 PM

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For your information, there was a team who uses 4-6-0 and won quite a lot of trophies...
4-6-0 is actually a "looks cool" formation...
Players like Ronaldo, plays as a winger, but score goals in a striker`s position..
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post Jun 23 2008, 02:47 PM

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I think that essentially a formation with an out-and-out forward would generally mean a higher possibility in quick counter attacking football, whereby the top man would be in a target-man's position and thus be able to release ghost runners on both flanks

This, in comparison to , say , 4-6-0. The build up of play would generally require a lot of beautiful passing football.


I personally agree with the reinvented centre forward, a hybrid, as you guys say, one whose work rate enables him to drop deep into midfield to win possession and even be the fulcrum point of attacks

 

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