Grats to all who managed it! Woot!

kurei you guys downed him yet?

gz...


gz...
ps : nice read in that kill post news..

I took another look at the guild note after mainFrame mention about it. Hmm...the rant doesn't look original and I'm pretty sure that I read it majority of the bits and pieces somewhere.

If he's that unhappy with the game, just quit and never look back. As a front page news, it's also ironic that at the end, he put up a recruitment message as well. Aiyo!

First 3 bosses I've seen through vids dont seem that hard. Probably Brutalus being the gear checker, but that could be significantly help with imba drumming, would pose some slight problem to guilds that have just downed Illidan recently. Nonetheless, grats to those who have downed Kalecgos, deemed to be very nicely tuned by most raiders I've read/spoken with recently.

As for the rant that Myremi spoke of, I kinda agree with her. From what I see, the author plays the game as an epeen booster and NOT for the sake of exploring the content. I myself enjoyed the PvE content for 2 reasons. 1) collective team gaming. the hours I spent in og with guildies and other gamers to trying theorise the best way to play a class was extremely enjoyable 2) trying to figure out the tactics and fine-tuning them to suit the guild in raid. I cant say my guild was the fore runner in boss kills, but I cant say we were too shabby ourselves being able to clear BT within the month or so it was introduced. Gears are just freaking there to help make the content easier, not exactly flaunt. Thus, you dont see me going 'wow.. you have legendaries' or what not. I would rather go 'wow, your tactic for that boss is way different from mine, and more effective'.

I'm Zelvaris. the gnome on the bear mount.

Haha of course I play wow. Otherwise how do I run gamepath.net?

greetings.

im hwh, author of elementium's recent front page post. im not here to stir too much discontent, but i'd like to clarify and understand why my friendly neighbours in malaysia have an issue with my rant.

firstly.

i think that sort of proves my entire point. you have read elsewhere that a lot of other wow players in the community are very dissatisfied with how wow is turning from casual, to even more casual. blizzard is 'cheapening' the game, for what? to allow more casual players access to epics? why are people so game-challenged they cannot spend more than a few weeks working on new content? and of course there would be bits that aren't original. if you actually bothered reading it i did mention many quotes from risen's site, (ex-top 10 world guild in case you dont know), and it reading that site was one of my initial reason to make the post. so isn't it natural to draw references from my inspiration?


i would love to be able to do that. but there are times when you are bound to the game by more than just addiction. in fact i would stick my head out to say that i am not even as addicted to this game as i was, i can easily spend a week or more away from it and not feel the urge to return. but when you have made a committment to something, or when there are people who rely on you, when some of their enjoyment is dependent on the fact that you play the game (yes this sounds very big-headed), there are surely more issues than just dropping the game carefreely. it's more of a just put your heart in and do it situation.

i have a question for you myremi. how long have you played this game? and how much of wow have you seen or are currently seeing?


next.


author tales. do i play this game as an epeen booster? maybe. maybe unknowingly, but surely not purposely. do you play this game as an epeen booster? probably too. judging from your post you are a wower who has experienced high end content. now tell me if you can safely say that you and all your guild members take loot altruistically 'to want to make content easier'. i am by no means a lootwhore, and i am a firm believer of skill > gear. if i could do it i would run around bt in my tier 3 and heal because of aesthetic reasons. but can i?

you obviously did not read the part when i said, "Don't get me wrong though - this isn't purely about me QQing that my epics isnt as epic as before, nor me throwing a hate post at casuals." Epics are meant to be there as a reward for your hardwork. but all that hardwork is now almost valued in the form of badges of justice. satisfaction from killing bosses as a reward? well. having had experienced first kills for all 40man,10,and 25man with my guild, that feeling does get old. sure i do derive some sort of satisfaction still, recently from kalecgos, but that is in no way near the overwhelming gratification i got from downing c'thun, from downing 4hm, etc.

these encounters are hard. it requires not just the luck element, but the intense co-ordination of every single raid member. nowadays encounters are just piss. a shit player can easily be carried through even illidan. try bringing a downie to the abovementioned encounters and let's see what happens.


i would like to see how your guild clears bt/hyjal. i can assure you 90-95% of the way you do things is similar to my guild, as well as the rest of the world. we are not content explorers, we are mere followers. unless you tell me you come from nihilum, dnt, premonition, sk-gaming, etc. these people are the true content explorers. they set foot into instances first, with no help whatsoever, and wipe hard and mindlessly to down bosses with sheer skill and determination. i believed in this tactics nonsense once. but this game is far too rigid to let you do anything out of the standard. you say you collect gear to make raids easier, therefore i do believe you also plan, read up, and consider how foreruning guilds did things. going into new content is not content exploring, it's making your 25dollar/month worth.
let me ask you now, do you have a prot paladin that helped you tank hyjal/even part of bt?
do you know what sunwell radiance is?
do you use warlocks to devour ros's shield? or mages to spellsteal?
do you use a 4camp strategy on shahraz? or a 3camp on illidan p2?
strats and tactics are there. they are given. what the challenge for guilds like us is to try to copy, but also yes, try to improve on it. but in terms of pure discovery, i seriously doubt you have experienced any of that, and much less play this game for it.

you want tactics? strats? play wc3. this game lacks that creativity, cause you seem rather deluded atm.

sir i salute you i truely agree with what you were ranting about on your gwebsite, and what you said here...

but it's true pve is for epeen shaking coz any 1 can get pvp gears and only 2050 guilds have killed illidian world wide.

This post has been edited by Jas2davir: Apr 1 2008, 10:18 AM

Nah... i think PvP (arena gears) are more for epeen than PvE.
For PvE, sure we are happy when we get wpic gears, but this is because we can contribute more during raid. Nothing can beat the satisfaction of finally able to kill a boss that we wipe countless times before that.


hwh, i think because of new expansion is coming, therefore blizzard is making current raid more casual for all players. Not all players can sit infront of PC to play Wow for 4-6hours to explore/clear new content.
So what if they can easily get epic gears now. It does not gaurantee that they all will be able to clear the content if they know nothing about the raid.
I believe when the new expansion is out, the cycle will return to normal again. People will start lvl'ing up to lvl80 and farm gears. those lvl70 epic gears.... will become like the current lvl60 epic gears.

oh i started real late in BC but in wotlk ill start early pre bc i was lucky enough to start early and enter a big raiding guild but now im ready bring it on WOTLK...i may not be in the games top raiding guild but i also dont really follow the wow guides/strats even if my guild makes us read's it and sum's it up for us....i rather go with the flow and move as things as it comes

Epics are still purples! More accessible epics for the casuals is alright. Its still gonna take a "casual" a considerable amount of time to farm those amount of badges to get their "free" gear. And you alwaz still have the option to "LOL badges gear" compared to your T6.

I personally don't mind the badges gear except some pieces with incredible itemization. It also allow good new players to show their worth.

And if u have been doing end game content since the start of WOW, u will realise that its pretty hard to come up with something pretty new all the time and that u have AMASS a considerable EXPERIENCE in raiding. In the end you are still fighting against a scripted AI.

BT/Hyjal has been out for pretty long time. So how is what they are doin now cheapening the game rather than just making it more accessible? If you are pro, which i know your guild, ur months ahead of any player or guild that is gonna spend 1000badges when the badge vendor comes out. Your gear will still be vastly superior (f***ing envy ur warglaives warrior) than the scrubs racing to get the badge vendor to be unlocked. If it is any consolation i cant f***in wait for the badge vendors to go live so i trade my 1000badges for crimson spinels n selling to the scrubs buying badge gear.

Either way what i am trying to say is, if ur leet n in premier guild such as urself, you're alwaz ahead. Raiding still does take some skill, that's why we have the word downies for the tools in our raid. Its just that you've experience pretty much of all end game content its pretty difficult to come out with another fight like 4H to bring back the awe in raiding.

Try to see the positive side of the game, u quite possibly might enjoy the game further. Don't be a burden on urself to log on to raid just for the sake others can raid. There's no satisfaction in that.

KIASU!

Hello there and welcome to WoW LYN Forums. I see that I seem to have stirred up the hornets' nest even though it was only one post.



Hmm... how big this dissastisfaction of WoW becoming casual is debatable. For one thing, we don't know the scale of it because Blizz doesn't put up the numbers. We assume that it must be big from reading blogs and forums posts. Bear in mind though that these posts are coming from individuals who are capable of playing their classes better than a "casual" player. But what is to say that the casual player is equally and if not more so skilled than a hardcore raider? Hardcore raiders still die on trash mobs - from a raider who admitted that his guild is casual and they have managed to see a few wings of Naxx before TBC hit.

It could be that the departing players from WoW has quite a significant impact to the WoW game than ever before. Or even Naxx when it launch and only a handful (compared to the overall WoW population) of players saw it and an even smaller number of guilds completed it. Yes, they had the glory of being one of the few guilds actually finishing Naxx. Blizz applauded them for their capabilities but Blizz also mentioned that Naxx is hard on guilds. And their actions by making Naxx available again, doesn't that hint that Blizz felt that it may have been too hard for the general population? Tigole himself had posted prior to accepting the job at Blizz that he wanted to make a chance that raid bosses shouldn't be too hard or too difficult.

As for Risen being your inspiration, yes, it is natural to draw references from your inspiration. It's also natural for some people to take a differring opinion. TBH, I didn't feel like saying much other than a few lines and probably would have just let it die down. But since you posted a reply, it tempted me too much to sit down quietly.

Casual having more access to epics doesn't necessarily make them a better player. In fact, if they cannot play well, they are ridiculed and ostracized even more by the WoW server community (I'll use the server community to narrow down the scope a bit). Expectations are very high when one carries epics. Even raiders in progressive guilds who can't play their classes well in PUG runs are ridiculed badly and probably more so because expectations are higher. Being in a progressive guild, even on PUG runs, they are expected to outperform others.



When I made the comment about to quit the game if you're unhappy about it, I was being honest. Because nothing burns a person out faster than no longer enjoying something that he does, even if it means leaving people behind to trudge on. I would rather have my leader leave than to have him dispirited and disheartened ands stress out by thinking that he alone has to shoulder the burden of carrying people through an activity that he no longer believes in. I will miss his guidance and leadership yes, but I would want him to at least have some self-confidence left rather than an abrupt departure.

It's also a comment that I make fairly often even in these forums. Truth hurts yes but it's even more disruptive when people stay to play the game and feel that they must voice out a lot of their angst about the game. It's like work or a non-profit organisation. It's time to move on once you've lost your passion for it. And if the exit is done will, people will remember that player more fondly.

Never look back - thinking about it further, I can see why people may get upset about it. I should have clarified and said never to look back on the bad side and just remember the good times.



Probably not as much as you have. Definitely not in a hardcore guild and probably wouldn't be seeing as much as you have.

But there are some lessons learnt in RL that is applicable in WoW that you could say makes me write the way I do at times.

I do like to help out people where I can, be it here or in-game. And I'd applaud the player who works hard to make something of himself in-game even if he never ends up being in a hardcore guild but that he has progress as far as he can. Epics shouldn't be a form a recognition but more a reward for good work.

However, I do look up to hardcore guilds as well. As Kurei mentioned, it's a scripted event and we will not invent anything new. I've pestered the players here who have seen those events more often than I can remember. They were kind enough to give some friendly tips rather than rant about casual players wanting to get epics.




Just a short observation about this. It's like "Sorry to have to say this as it's going to make people angry but I have got to say it". Yes, it's very common for people to say this a lot but it's asking for trouble though. And it smacks on insincerity of the author. Just say it out. No need to apologize for viewpoints. Self-help books always say don't do this - it may seem that it's softening the blow but in reality, nothing softens blows when it comes to words. As the old adage saying goes, "Words are sharper than a two-edged sword".

Hmm... I'm going to think a bit more before I answer this. Because clearly we have hit a sore point with you and you have taken it as a serious hit on your personal character rather than an impartial discussion.

But I'd just say that this is what Blizzard put down on their website :



Highly enjoyable - that seems to imply that they are covering more than the hardcore raiders. What it is, is anybody's guess at the moment. Their KPIs may include more than just $$$ or satisfying the hardcore raiders. Hence the result of epics being more easily available.

Heya HWH!

First off, I would like to reiterate that I am not here to start any arguments with you, and I take your post in good faith. I was just merely stating my views and so were you and thus there is neither any right or wrong. Just two different individuals with different purpose when playing the game. Furthermore, I'm way too tired - or maybe I've just grown up, hopefully - of trying to convince anyone to see things my way (yes, I was quite blinded back then when I was playing an officer's role within a hardcore guild - or probably semi hardcore compared to the top 10 guilds in the world - but hardcore nonetheless) ever since I quit the game sometime sept last year, that after clearing BT, due to personal reasons.

I admire your level of commitment to the game, especially when it comes to you leading your guild. I truely understand how hard it is to just make up your mind to quit the game and leave your guildmates to carry on without you. When playing a leading role, there is a certain level of responsibility one carries - yes, and thus we NEVER said that wow in a 'semi hardcore and hardcore' guild 'is just a game'. As a matter of fact, it's far from it and to be able to achieve that status would take a lot of self-sacrifice, be it time or lots of giving. However, in the end of the day, there are always fresh new blood to take over the 'old-wise' ones, and there are always people who would step up and retain the mantle of leadership.

I'm being frank and just to let you know, I very seldom add spice and sugar to my statements, for flattery is not my cup of tea. Thus, some of the questions that you posed, I have no answer to, for example the 3 or 4-camp, as I'm not exactly sure what those entail. Probably it's for the better seeing that I've quit the game afterall and also a testament to me not reading too many sites to 'copy' their ideas when it comes down to trying to 'adapt' - as you so bluntly pointed, but quite so true nevertheless - instead of 'strategise' our raid plans when it comes down to raiding. Neither am I going to answer some of which I could answer, for that would just lead to more unnecessary posts seeing that I detest drama - even more so when I'm in it.

I would just like to point out, in the end of the day, only the player himself will know his true worth. I myself will take pride in clearing the content tbc and pre-tbc - bar c'thun/viscidus (the only reset the guild killed C'thun was when I was away ) and Loatheb in Naxx onwards pre-tbc - before I quit, knowing full well that I played a significant role within my guild to make it happen, regardless of how many other tom,d*** or harry managed to acheive that feat, as I dont benchmark myself with others, but only the targets I personally set out. Gears alone MIGHT hint that the player managed to down a certain boss, but only he himself knows his contribution to downing that boss.

Afterall, what do I have now that I quit the game? Not epics, not gears. Only memories of the good-old-time of raiding, the gay-ish manner of shouting after downing a boss, the laughters we shared in gchat, the unforgettable 'oh shit moments', and the friendship we built - yes, I dare say friendship since I'm sure that should I ever visit their countries in europe, we could just meet up in a bar and remenisce. All these not influenced by whether a 'noob/nab/scrub or whatever you call them these days' managed to get the same gear as I.

P/S: Myremi, I think the later bit of his post was directed at me ;D

im not reading those wall of text..

hello all again.

first before i continue i have to say sorry if my post came across as being too spicy or anything. not nice waking up at 8am and while you are still unsure of what your sirname is you have to type a reply post. yes true everyone has their views and even some of my own guildies feel that it is 'all right' for blizzard to 'cheapen' the game. and also i do enjoy reading lengthy walls of text, given that the writer knows what the hell he/she's talkin about, and its not just stubborn pointless point rubbing.

to address poster myremi:
when i said what you say proves my entire point, it literally means just that. when, in the past, has there been so many posts about blizzard cheapening the game and causing discontent/unhappiness for end-game wowers? hardly ever. it is only in recent times that so many guilds have starting speaking out - because blizzard have taken things too far. i am sure there are other reasons to the fall of risen, but it is very apparent from the post made by Failure (their leader), that one of the main driving reason is the cheapening of epics. Rather than spending their billions of dollars designing new content, they'd rather make current content more accessible? make epics easier to achieve? that is what i feel to be a slap in the faces of those who've really put in hard effort to earn their epics.



exactly. why give casuals epics if it doesnt necessarily make them a better player? why give anyone epics for that matter, not just casuals, if it isn't an indication of their skill? one reason for epics is that they are meant to be an indication of you, your status, saying to the world, hey i have been in this guild i have warglaives i can kill illidan. it should be a reflection of your play level your committment to the game. to some, it is also a recognition of their efforts. now. but more importantly, and this what i truly feel, is that epics should give you the edge. the edge over other casuals so that those who don't put in the same number of hours as we do, so that i can enjoy the rest of wow, be it smaller dungeon raids, pvp, killing level 65s, or whatever. why should a casual be able to do the same or almost similar dps to a mage who's earned and spent infinite amount of dkp on his gear. its a matter of effort vs reward.

imagine this scenario. currently this mage is the most geared mage in my guild: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/characte...krock&n=inverse
inverse is, i would say, a world class player. his effort, skill, dedication is unparalleled. resulting in the fact that for bt/hyjal, he is nearly 'perfectly geared' (bar tempest of chaos). so if i can quantify his effort, he'd get a 10. reward also = 10.

10 effort, for 10 reward.
now. i cannot find a link to a casual mage decked out in badge gear. but before all this badge of justice crap, a 2 effort mage would only be rewarded gear levels (and consequently, dps levels, assuming he has a clue), of 2.
2 effort, for 2 reward (in the past)
now its become 2 effort for, i duno 7 or 8 reward.

why?

why should casuals get so much help, or so much leeway, or so much sympathy or whatever, SO MUCH SO that 2:2 becomes 2:8? what's going to happen to my 10:10 mage? 1 effort for 1 reward, vs. 1 effort for 4 reward. hello?



maybe i shouldve explained. i am not dispirited nor disheartened nor unhappy. i love my guild, some of my best irl friends are in this guild, it is my heart and soul. i, as many people do, play this game for the people. not for the pvp, not for the pve, but for the people. again im sorry if i appeared angsty, but my mind is just boggled by blizzard's actions and i cannot get around the fact of what the hell they are doing. a lot of people have offered alternatives, have offered solutions, but they do not heed the actual players' advice, and care only to maximise profits with the least amount of effort put in.

"With the amount of money they are making, they should be putting out at least 4 5-mans and 1 10-man per month and 1 25-man every-other month. Not to mention they should probably be adding 1 new battleground each month, and 1 special tournament every other month."




I do, love, giving help to other wow players. i love insightful discussions, and i love trading notes with other guilds experiencing the same content as me. when i was in the army in sg i was easily the most active poster in the army forums, giving out help like candy acting santa claus. BUT, i also do feel ranty once inawhile. and to tell you the honest truth, the main drive behind my huge rant is the realization of how what blizzard is doing is affecting my guild.

i assume you read my entire post and about the bit about recruitment. instead of allowing casuals more epics so they can have a chance at higher end guilds, so i have more potential trials, the reverse is happening! all the top players/pve-ers are all quitting because, amongst other reasons i assume, the 'devaluation of epics'. it is a sick reality but yes there are also good pve talent that raid just for epics. if epics are a reason for raiding, then so be it. do i want raiders that only want epics? of course not. but i most certainly also do not want people to quit because of the 'devaluation' of it.

as i said, this game is already drained of pve talent. now there will be even less. it is not a 'phenomenon' as observed only by my server, but a community wide thing.


er. lol. i honestly do not have anything against casuals. my agenda here is with blizzard. and i dont see why its wrong or insincere if i dont want whatever i say to be mistaken by casuals who might get offended by it. if i want you to be offended by something i say, or rather, feel something toward it, i would sure as hell let it be known. like me now to blizzard. i'm a pretty straightforward person, i dont like to sugar coat things, i dont like to beat around the bush. if i hate you, ill tell you, if i love you, i will love you. it's a trait or character i have picked up 2 years in the military, as well as being a raid leader of my guild.

--------------

tales:

hi and yes i am not here to start arguments too ^^.


yes. but im not saying epics are a measure for your worth. but how many end game guilds would seriously consider taking casuals with this new gear? even if he's super pro, he can give you 2hours of his time 2 days a week. what then? replace him with someone else? how then will you decide loot drop? will you give, for example, skull of gul'dan to a mage if he was as above? no because that skull would only be in the raid 2hours 2 days a week. so i honestly dont get what blizzard is doing here.



yea. those things i will hold to me close for sure.

What I meant with "I would just like to point out, in the end of the day, only the player himself will know his true worth." was that only the player knows how good a player he is AND how hard he worked for his rewards. Success always seems sweeter when you work for it instead of getting it cheaply, eventhough at times, it's a rather pleasant surprise to see Santa bearing free gifts.

Anyways, all the best with your Sunwell progression. I'm sure the bosses will drop soon enough, and it's also a nice change to see a fellow enthusiast who most probably is the fussiest when it comes to details keeping his cool in this thread. Kudos, and I for one have another guild to cheer on for the Sunwell race. New contents make my fingers itch, but it's time to watch things from the sideline. Good luck mate!

Going to turn this a wee bit.

If say that Blizzard were to reverse their decision, would your guildies come back with the uncheaping of the epics? Or for Risen, for that matter.

The final answer may be the end of all arguments.

Maybe anyways.

well i duno how to answer that question - the answer is probably not as straightforward as you think it is.
some things, when pushed beyond a certain point, can never return no matter how you reverse it.
say this guy and this girl are going out for 3 years. but guy suddenly becomes very obnoxious and chauvinistic so girl breaks up with him. if the guy reverses back to normal, would the girl necessarily go back? i duno call me a pessimist but usually it's not the case. then again it's a very case-by-case basis thing.

anyway none of my guildies have quit because of the devaluation of epics. most if not all are due to irl commitments.

oh btw kurei. nice.. epics. lol.
are you mt of pantheon?
how are you guys going to deal with sunwell radiance?
oh and. wts elementium vs. fade rivarly. i think they think they will score oceanic firsts on the rest of sunwell!! zomg


oh and btw
support gamepath! it receives the elementium seal of approval.
but you know the owner of lowerping is in elementium now too

This post has been edited by hwh: Apr 1 2008, 10:17 PM

lol wtf? i dont get this @@"