First 3 bosses I've seen through vids dont seem that hard. Probably Brutalus being the gear checker, but that could be significantly help with imba drumming, would pose some slight problem to guilds that have just downed Illidan recently. Nonetheless, grats to those who have downed Kalecgos, deemed to be very nicely tuned by most raiders I've read/spoken with recently.

As for the rant that Myremi spoke of, I kinda agree with her. From what I see, the author plays the game as an epeen booster and NOT for the sake of exploring the content. I myself enjoyed the PvE content for 2 reasons. 1) collective team gaming. the hours I spent in og with guildies and other gamers to trying theorise the best way to play a class was extremely enjoyable 2) trying to figure out the tactics and fine-tuning them to suit the guild in raid. I cant say my guild was the fore runner in boss kills, but I cant say we were too shabby ourselves being able to clear BT within the month or so it was introduced. Gears are just freaking there to help make the content easier, not exactly flaunt. Thus, you dont see me going 'wow.. you have legendaries' or what not. I would rather go 'wow, your tactic for that boss is way different from mine, and more effective'.

Heya HWH!

First off, I would like to reiterate that I am not here to start any arguments with you, and I take your post in good faith. I was just merely stating my views and so were you and thus there is neither any right or wrong. Just two different individuals with different purpose when playing the game. Furthermore, I'm way too tired - or maybe I've just grown up, hopefully - of trying to convince anyone to see things my way (yes, I was quite blinded back then when I was playing an officer's role within a hardcore guild - or probably semi hardcore compared to the top 10 guilds in the world - but hardcore nonetheless) ever since I quit the game sometime sept last year, that after clearing BT, due to personal reasons.

I admire your level of commitment to the game, especially when it comes to you leading your guild. I truely understand how hard it is to just make up your mind to quit the game and leave your guildmates to carry on without you. When playing a leading role, there is a certain level of responsibility one carries - yes, and thus we NEVER said that wow in a 'semi hardcore and hardcore' guild 'is just a game'. As a matter of fact, it's far from it and to be able to achieve that status would take a lot of self-sacrifice, be it time or lots of giving. However, in the end of the day, there are always fresh new blood to take over the 'old-wise' ones, and there are always people who would step up and retain the mantle of leadership.

I'm being frank and just to let you know, I very seldom add spice and sugar to my statements, for flattery is not my cup of tea. Thus, some of the questions that you posed, I have no answer to, for example the 3 or 4-camp, as I'm not exactly sure what those entail. Probably it's for the better seeing that I've quit the game afterall and also a testament to me not reading too many sites to 'copy' their ideas when it comes down to trying to 'adapt' - as you so bluntly pointed, but quite so true nevertheless - instead of 'strategise' our raid plans when it comes down to raiding. Neither am I going to answer some of which I could answer, for that would just lead to more unnecessary posts seeing that I detest drama - even more so when I'm in it.

I would just like to point out, in the end of the day, only the player himself will know his true worth. I myself will take pride in clearing the content tbc and pre-tbc - bar c'thun/viscidus (the only reset the guild killed C'thun was when I was away ) and Loatheb in Naxx onwards pre-tbc - before I quit, knowing full well that I played a significant role within my guild to make it happen, regardless of how many other tom,d*** or harry managed to acheive that feat, as I dont benchmark myself with others, but only the targets I personally set out. Gears alone MIGHT hint that the player managed to down a certain boss, but only he himself knows his contribution to downing that boss.

Afterall, what do I have now that I quit the game? Not epics, not gears. Only memories of the good-old-time of raiding, the gay-ish manner of shouting after downing a boss, the laughters we shared in gchat, the unforgettable 'oh shit moments', and the friendship we built - yes, I dare say friendship since I'm sure that should I ever visit their countries in europe, we could just meet up in a bar and remenisce. All these not influenced by whether a 'noob/nab/scrub or whatever you call them these days' managed to get the same gear as I.

P/S: Myremi, I think the later bit of his post was directed at me ;D

What I meant with "I would just like to point out, in the end of the day, only the player himself will know his true worth." was that only the player knows how good a player he is AND how hard he worked for his rewards. Success always seems sweeter when you work for it instead of getting it cheaply, eventhough at times, it's a rather pleasant surprise to see Santa bearing free gifts.

Anyways, all the best with your Sunwell progression. I'm sure the bosses will drop soon enough, and it's also a nice change to see a fellow enthusiast who most probably is the fussiest when it comes to details keeping his cool in this thread. Kudos, and I for one have another guild to cheer on for the Sunwell race. New contents make my fingers itch, but it's time to watch things from the sideline. Good luck mate!

Sup, Xanthi. Another new member to the lowyat wow forum, welcome!

The tougher recruitment argument is quite illogical.
What do have in your recruitment template? Without even having to go over to your recruitment forum, I'm sure you will put something along the line of:

Name the instances you have cleared in TBC. Also include any prior experience in raids before TBC.

Furthermore, if you want to be so anal in terms of recruitment standards, you could even throw in 'include the dates you downed the last bosses of each instances for the first time'. This will allow you to 'probably' sieve the ones you deem 'unskilled' enough. Yes, it's rather disheartening to see people say 'LOL gruul is sooo easy' when the shattered range was much shorter back then and we had to resort to invul pot, or 'LOL magtheridon is just having people knowing how to click' when their cube clicking cd was 2x shorter, and adds doing 2x less dmg and having 2x less hp, 'LOL we one shot-ed Mother' when her FAs were so uncontrolable back then, not to mention lol-OT ports. But at least I take pride that I, and most probably YOU too, managed to down them when they were not patch nerfed/fixed. Your level of satisfaction in terms of gaming content wise waaaay outweights theirs. This IS what sets you apart from them, not epics.

Not to mention, I'm sure you have something called 'trial period', of which I'm sure a number of people have failed before. Take them to instances, watch how they perform, check what they bring to raids, see if they actually bring constructive ideas to the raid. Furthermore, seeing that you are in a realm with so many illidan farming guilds, it gives you the benefit of word of mouth per say of a player's skill. More often than not the better players in my exguild were recommended by our members who have dueled/pvp-ed/instance partied with the new recruit, something impossible when it comes to realm-transfer application. So, count yourself lucky there interms of the recruitment department.

The 'cheapening' of epics should allow you a larger array of choices seeing that gears are still the main check point, just that it might take a little longer to decide if that person is one of the skill level you'd like. It's still way better than having no one geared enough and you have to drag them through lower level instances to have them geared up - still remember the BT period when we had to do a ssc/tk to have people attuned because they weren't. If people are quiting because epics are too easy to get, that gets back to my point of them just taking gears as a measure of success. As said, it MIGHT be a measure of success, but to me, what I obtain along with the gear makes it special, not just the gear alone.
Why is it that games like wow makes me want to go back for more? It's not because of gears, but because of the contents I want to explore, something some of the casuals with 'cheap' epics will not be able to do so, until maybe the next expansion. Even after quiting the game around half a year now, the reason I'm getting back to reading on wow currently is due to the fact that SW is live, and I'm just curious and it also makes me wonder if I could actually clear it at its prime difficulty. Something a person who doesn't play or a 'casual' will never be able to answer.

P/S: One person dieing in a boss first kill doesnt make it over. It just makes it a non-perfect kill. I can still recall a great deal of first kills pre-tbc when we had a few slip-ups but still managed to down them. I cant say I've hit 4H to experience the awsome-ness of it, but I've seen a number of vids of gulids losing members IN it, and it's a higher % than 1/25. Shit happens at times afterall.

If you are not willing to even have a lenghty chat with a new recruit and probe more on his experience, I guess that will leave you with a sub-par candidate more often than not. You of all people should know that to obtain something really valuable, preperation and hardwork are necessary.

-Treat enchant from twinemps was valuable during its heydays, but you must also agree that should your guild progress decently enough, hearts of darkness/vortices bring shitloads of money too. Not to mention patterns, gems. It's all about being the forerunner and exploiting that small window of opportunity before it becomes common again.

I guessed you answered yourself when you threw in names like Nihilum and LR and their bad luck with drops. True, there might be some players within the guild that got sick of it and rant - maybe quit, who knows? - at times, but, does the fact that their lack of warglaive to show deflate their worth?

Anyways, I dont have much time today to type more, but as I've pointed out earlier, I'm not here to make you see things my way. Just trying to shed some light from my experience - if it counts for any - and probably make you enjoy the game a little more by not having this slight issue spoil your gaming experience. Oh, and I do enjoy reading coherent and constructive posts, regardless of its length.