Yes we muslim can celebrate chinese new year together but not christmas eve.

Just Enjoy the environment atmosphere and it doesn't mean you celebrate it. Understand ar?

First of all, people who seriously answers no to your question is on the far side of the spectrum, heck they probably labelled you enemy too.

Your goal is to get people on your side -- side where people can celebrate festivals harmoniously, safely, without any fear of shaken faith, regardless of one's demographics... What good will it do labelling others enemies and insult anyone who disagrees with you?

As much as I want to support your cause, I do not support your hostility. Hate begets hate. You are damaging the cause by bringing spears (in the form of venomous words) to the fight.

I have a somewhat long response to you that first showcases my way of thinking about the problem and the goal that you have chosen to support, and then after this I will articulate what I believe our common goal is so that you can act upon it in order to achieve it in your own way if you feel that there are better ways of doing so.

Thought process:

What you say is my goal is not wrong.

I think it's nice to imagine that you can, at scale, make sure that people agree with you and be at harmony with you, but I am a practical person.

When you are living in a society where there are bad actors like the ones who are casually trying to attack everyone else, it is sometimes necessary to bring a climate of extreme fear upon such people, and to do so without reservation not simply as a single individual, but also to encourage people to do so at scale in the realization that while we may not be unimpeachable personally, there needs to be a recognition that bad actors exist, and society should not protect them.

If they want to go ahead and challenge the fabric of your society, then why should you give them quarter?

The law permits that they should be silenced, and people generally don’t recognize that they can indeed encourage the state, the nation, and all of you to demand that they are enforced and anyone who attempts to divide us on the basis of religious beliefs needlessly, writ large, will be punished or sanctioned, even as we admit that, on matters of religious belief, the sheer spectrum of possible ways in which people can interpret the issue and what people deem as either correct or wrong varies as well along a continuum that depends upon whom it is that they have chosen to follow.

Nonetheless, the general operative metaprinciple that should be in place remains that one should not assume that they know everything or unduly attempt to impose their belief system upon the world and that humility is required.

What I believe, although I can be wrong in certain and specific ways, is that the majority of people who are bad actors in this way are people on the far end of the spectrum, to whom fear is the ultimate form of resolution.

Of course there are people in the middle who may be more easily or better swayed along the way, and to that I say, if you have nothing to fear, then you have no reason to be opposed in any meaningful way to my approach - just try to watch and not try to express your opinions when you see people celebrating Christmas, read your mufti judgment, and then refrain from impeding Malaysians from coming together.

Of course, if you view that it is better for you to take a more conciliatory approach, then you are entirely welcome to do so, but you should not expect me to be the sole bearer of the burden along the way as I have no interest in changing my personality for anyone or under any circumstances and you would be unwise to assume that you will succeed.

If you wish to bring forth another effort, you are welcome to, but I would take a slightly different approach and moreover, encourage people at scale to address the people who want to manipulate us with their narratives on an individual level and at scale.

Of course, none of what I said precludes your going out and bringing forth any initiative that you would prefer, but you will not stop me from saying what I prefer and neither will I attempt to stop you from doing what you wish.

Principles of thinking:

It’s nice that you support what I am trying to achieve, but also note that I don't feel a need to take credit for what I would like to achieve, which is merely a Malaysia that is more integrated in a range of different ways.

That I am merely providing the most publicly visible attempt at addressing the problem does not necessarily indicate that I am the only person who can attempt to resolve the problem.

Fear can be the solution, but so can more Kamala Harris-style inclusion.

You are welcome to try to use both approaches as long as you understand the operative principle and you work towards that specific goal in mind. I have no pretensions about necessarily being the best person to accomplish that goal in the first place. But as long as there is an awareness that that is what we are moving towards, and you are aware and are aligned on that front, then you are free to do it better than I ever could and I would be happy to support you along the way.

This post has been edited by Exoflare: Dec 23 2024, 03:27 PM

I find this type of hostility getting more prevalent in society these days not just online.

Wants peace and harmony but practices self sabotaging behaviour

First he asks if we can all celebrate Christmas. If he understands the definition of celebrate, it can be

1. acknowledge (a significant or happy day or event) with a social gathering or enjoyable activity.
2. perform (a religious ceremony), in particular officiate at (the Eucharist).

If he means first, then answer is very obvious.
If he means second, then answer is also very obvious.

So he needs to know which one he refers to.

Then he talks about how people reported his posts, but then he said people can just said no. But when people voted no, he says these are the enemy blah blah. Then someone said government officials also celebrate Christmas, then he said no no.. Blah blah. Then wrote a long essay... Pppffffft

Damn if you do, damn if you don't.

As Mensa member, maybe he can define what celebrate means here. Otherwise, this thread will go nowhere. Go round and round pretending we are having some intellectual discussion here.

Wishing all Christians a blessed Christmas. And no, if you're not a Christian, you don't need to hallelujah celebrate with us. The same I don't celebrate stranger's birthday and they don't celebrate my birthday also. Doesn't mean we are not united in anyway. .

This post has been edited by gashout: Dec 24 2024, 12:18 PM

His previous thread exhibited the same hostility. Good intentions but how he does it is very self sabotaging. I do support his cause but not him due to this.

And yea 'celebrate' here needs o be define properly if he really wants a proper discussion. Celebrate to PuAs clearly means something else.

I 'celebrate' Christmas because it is a happy occasion to socialise with friends, just like any other catchup session but with a specific theme. I am no closer to being a Christian or losing my own faith after doing this for decades.

no, because we have different brains

yes, Christmas is a public holiday in Malaysia
yes, share happiness
maybe, not relevant to me
no, i just dont
no, my religion say cannot
no, you celebrate you will go hell
no, you celebrate i send you to hell

Haha, you don’t have to support me. If you see that the cause is worthwhile, I will assume that you will pursue it if you are serious.

I’m not here to make ‘friends’ on the internet or to sell myself or my personal characteristics - anything you’ve chosen to identify is of your own prerogative 🙃

Actually I am a bit curious, but what is it about my being a Mensa member or not being a Mensa member that made you choose to raise it?

Odd to see that that was the thing you decided to raise of all things, haha.

aku setiap christmas pergi dinner dekat concorde melting pot with family. celebrate our own style. mostly sebab we aligned ourselves with western culture and the fact that family wife aku grew up dekat states for a good amount of years.

so, don't really care about what people in malaysia insist. lu, lu, gua, gua. lu punya hal, gua punya hal kinda thing.

Wah macam tu? Bestnya… Yang menyedihkan tu, banyak orang yang takkan rasa tu. Dijajah dasar neokolonialis gaya baru dan nak mengawal orang je…

You are sabotaging the cause itself, not just yourself. That's the point.

Especially for topics like these in Malaysia. The ignorant dungus that misunderstand your goals will end up being against it as a whole as they'll latch on to your hostility and focus on that.

This happens all the time in this country.

Long reply begets longer reply

I do not believe fear is the (only) solution, because by instilling fear into the bad actors, you also increase their resentment over time. They are not convinced at all and will always be ready to strike back.

I agree however, to do the right thing and enforce the laws. That I think is what the government needs to do - next section.

That's one long sentence I had to reread a few times and still unsure if I understood right.. CMIIW to summarise: there are existing laws to prosecute those bad actors but rarely enforced for various reasons. Even when enforced, there are many perspectives and what is right to one, can be wrong to another.

My reply: I think this is a government thing, not much I can do here. Maybe the best I can do is report to authorities, but honestly? I'm not motivated at all:
1. Who exactly deals with this, police? If they have time for this then I'd rather they investigate/deal with more pressing matters like enforcing traffic laws, anti bribery, public safety (curb rempit, gangsterism etc.) if you know better then maybe you can educate me/others.

2. I have a strong perception that our enforcement simply doesn't care or is biased. Count the prosecuted seditious cases -- categorise by religion and/or race. Also count the number of cases you found seditious to paint a full picture. This number will tell everyone:
- to the government, it's a mirror for them to reflect upon themselves.
- to the people, it's a reminder of the current status quo. Me, as a minority, will continue to stay silent as long as I have the perception that the enforcer is picking a side.


Yes, and here I seek to understand why is this the way it is now. I believe they are taught to be this way. By the bad actors who disguise themselves as an authority one can trust OR simply, the bots you see everyday on social media telling the world how evil the other side is.

With that understanding, I think that attacking those who are taught won't solve anything, instead you strengthen their resolve to band even stronger together to fight against.. you, "the evil". So, attack the fake teachers. I'll take Z. Naik as an example. From wiki:

Was he prosecuted? No. Why? The government decided that he was not a problem.

Well, surely they can express their opinions if it's to hail the celebration, right?

Thought exercise: what if you are at the top and you have full authority to do whatever it takes? I'm curious to understand what would you do?

For me, I would start by gathering allies. I'll get in touch with accredited scholars and have meaningful discussions/debates to determine a common "right way". Then, set up a "hall of fame"/website to display those who are "good to follow": those with recognitions, awards, researches etc. they will be heavily scrutinised. Best ones are those with social media accounts, "licensed influencers" to spread the idea... But I don't mean to be directly involved; no one from any political party should take part in the content, because that gives an impression that there is any sort of political endorsement.

Then, I want to get rebuild reputation of the government and authority bodies. Make them do the right things by heavily scrutinising the departments. Statistics/reports, body cams (police), newsletter/coverage on resolved cases (which serves as a way to tell people you're doing your job + warning the public what went wrong). I really, really dislike the current trend of announcing announcements or "I think".

With an effective backbone, now I can go after the ones ("teachers" and bots) who say crazy things and make sure they face the court. Charged or not, I hope the judges would be fair but one successful case will set precedence for others and instill fear into the taught ones. Now that I wrote this, I think I understand more about differences in our approaches: like you, I used the word fear. But unlike you, I never used the word "enemy". Be careful when using strong words as you also invite stronger emotions. Emotion is bad for logical thinking -- men should know that better!

Personally I am non confrontational and rather passive, so I appreciate one who isn't afraid to go in headstrong and I thank you for your effort. I only fear that your hostility against "the other side" and trolls (esp. in this forum) will bring us all a few steps backwards. You were right to keep your goal small: successfully propagate this idea to one or two, and let that repeat just like COVID spreading and soon you'll get the whole community, even country, infected with the idea. The question is, did you succeed in that one or two?

Let's say I hope for the same end, but it's not a goal I strive to achieve, as I don't feel that I am in the right position to preach. Personally I'm just doing my own part by being a "good human" -- in this context, to be mindful of people's preferences/constraints.

Another thought exercise:
What is it like to ask a Malay friend, "hey wanna celebrate Christmas together?" You knew s/he is not Christian (i.e. Malay is Muslim by law). Give an analogy.
Example 1:
"It's like asking a pregnant woman if she wants to drink alcohol"
> To this, I disagree because a pregnant woman CANNOT drink alcohol as it would adversely affect the pregnancy, even killing the baby.

Example 2:
"It's like asking a kid to eat veggies"
> Not quite. Christmas is not "good for them" like how veggies are good for health.

Ironically the more globalised we become aka. the more internet, the worse the people are at socialising. It's a skill that needs to be constantly honed but...

No need to control emotions online because you hide behind anonymity.
No need to be nice because you can just block/ignore someone you don't like.
No need to learn to integrate or convince others, because you can find your own echo chamber easily online.

Then the worse you become IRL, the more you regress into internet, ...itulah usul asal seseorang /ktard.

To be fair, you wouldn’t read through my long paragraphs or try to even understand my thinking if you were one of those ignorant dungus.

I could say something mocking here, but think about this fact for a while.

If you are here in this thread, even after everything that was said before (which, by the way, I believe in), then what does that say about you?

Are you one of the ‘dungus’ who is likely to make the problem worse? 🤭


Wah thanks for this.

1. My strategy thus far:

Sure, maybe some people will end up hating what you’ve chosen to do, but from my experience of encountering hate speech pretty frequently and encountering some people who haven’t dared to speak up on my channel, it’s also possible to encounter silent majorities of people who haven’t dared to say anything before.

I believe at least part of the solution is not just silencing the extremes but also finding and cultivating voices from within the community of people who share the same religion as the separatists, and then giving them an example of the kind of critiquing which I think they should find socially acceptable and begin to practice without fear, something that will begin to cultivate multiple saplings in the community that can begin to grow and then compete with the otherwise uninhibited extremism that exists out there.

There are a few public examples, but mostly people who are from the Malay world tend to be very afraid of trying to kecam people from the same world because if they do they have the fear that they will be kecam’d as well.

Deeply fearful, they would probably never say that they would oppose people in their own community at all… Publicly.

Consider this poll I did yesterday at 11pm, for example.



If there are so many people like this who feel that PAS is doing a bad job but aren’t really going out there to express themselves, what’s a reasonable interpretation of the set of different possibilities?

The answer seems to me to be that they don’t dare and thus they need examples of people going out there and persecuting and challenging the extremes as a foundation for a social pact where extremes can and will be excluded.

2. Justice system:

I believe it’s important to get more people to make use of our justice system rather than just complaining about how it doesn’t work on the basis of their lack of experience with it.

I strongly believe that one reason why a lot of people don’t have their complaints acted upon is that they do not report them, and that the justice system is biased against other ethnicities of people mainly because they do not band together to make police reports, and police typically only act as you see from the news when this sort of mass report thing happens.

Since Malaysian Chinese/Indian people often don’t make reports (and there is this culture that reporting is useless) and therefore don’t have their complaints acted upon when they do, I think it is reasonable that there is this perception that the justice system is biased.

As for your point on sedition - where do you even get comprehensive statistics on sedition cases broken down by race haha? I need to see that before I agree with what you’re saying.

On another note…

I was the subject of an attempted shaming case once. Both our government (Minister Fahmi Fadzil and deputy Minister Teo Nie Ching) took action directly and personally - he filed a legal request to Meta amongst other things, and she directly prioritized the case, and I know that this was exactly what happened from my communications with them over LinkedIn and also over watching the offender (owner of a page with tens of thousands of followers) come down after playing victim, blocking me, crying, although it did come up with offshoots later on that started complaining about Madani being oppressive and how his ‘freedom of speech’ was being repressed.

It helps that PDRM took action immediately, assigning me an officer who (just for illustratory purposes - normally it shouldn’t matter) was Indian, and proceeded to take action by calling the person and sharing some pleasant thoughts about national harmony, after which I think he developed a phobia of me which I am happy to egg on but alas, I’m not one to circumvent someone blocking me on Instagram and have better things to do.

Oh, I also have gone directly up to PDRM and directly told them that I think such people who have been using sentiments like this should be shamed - not in writing form; in direct speech form, with the clear intention of having the entire station hear every single word I say.

I told PDRM that if they see individuals like these that they are dangers against national security and that if they encounter people like this, they should casually take action and have no mercy.

All of this is just a very long winded attempt at saying I have no particular reason to disbelieve our justice system, haha. I just think it is underused and also that it itself is complacent and can be misused by bad actors and influenced by politicians.

3. If I were in a greater position of power…

If it’s just gut level influence, it’s nice to be able to have people express sentiments of muhibbah and other stuff like that and to speak against racism but frankly being a nice person and just not trying to control people is already a clear expression of that and I don’t think having performative behavior is equivalent to being more muhibbah but it’s nice to explore the possibility of that happening and actually working and to make it happen on a massive scale.

I would also facilitate mass report culture on the part of all racial conmunities and religious communities, and create a situation where it is possible to positively influence the police and authorities to take action, which includes military action, upon people who are extremists. (We can do that today - I encourage you to report extremists lol)

If it’s legal, administrative, and political power…

I would recruit people to infiltrate networks, attend their meetings clandestinely, and eventually identify their key people with the intention of influencing them or controlling them, while identifying their legitimate concerns.

I would also moreover target their children and have their children become educated in a way that is suitable towards dealing with their parents - may be more easy to do this through tiktok than through focus groups, though. Most things I think should happen by free choice - ie addictive videos that make appropriate behavior, ie separatist-shaming, speaking out against walaun parents, and racist-shaming seem obvious and the natural thing to do.

We can also say, identify key influencers and also provide funding and grants for activities, but only ever in contexts suited towards monitoring, developing dependence, and possibly crippling whom we need to cripple.


End:

Your response was tremendously long and I doubt I covered what would have done it justice in totality, but maybe this gives you an idea of what is on my mind.

Invite you to further ideate.

As I said, there’s no necessity that I am the best person for this.

Some of you may take real world actions that translate into a more interesting and colorful reality, and I encourage you to do so according to your own interpretation of the problem as stated 😊

This post has been edited by Exoflare: Dec 24 2024, 08:19 AM

See helang celebrate Christmas, got turkey makan2 no problem also (pics at bottom of article)

https://www.malaymail.com/news/malaysia/202...d-bright/160650

my question for you, why is there a "need" to celebrate christmas for non-christian?

No ‘need’, but I expect you to refrain from trying to defend people who insist that Malaysians CANNOT spend Christmas together.

What this also means is that I expect you to notice that nobody is forcing you to celebrate, but the expectation is that you refrain from trying to gaslight people into sharing your koyak belief that people should NOT celebrate together.

You don’t wanna celebrate? Make it your own problem. You can follow whatever outdated ulama you wanna follow (btw even the Mufti of WP hints that the view of the no-wish ulama is outdated lol) but do us a favor and don’t spread either Fitnah or the idea that there is a good reason to STOP Malaysians from celebrating together if they want to do so.

If Christmas is not mentioned as a celebration in the Bible, its roots trace back to pagan traditions, and iconic elements like Santa Claus, reindeer, and gift-giving are entirely absent from Scripture, how do people reconcile its adoption with the modern consumerism and folklore that often overshadow its supposed spiritual meaning?