Top 10 Lies told to Naive Artists and Designers
- by Mark W. Lewis

1 "Do this one cheap (or free) and we'll make it up on the next one."
No reputable business person would first give away their work and time or merchandise on the hope of making it up later. Can you imagine what a plumber would say if you said "come in, provide and install the sink for free and next time we'll make it up when we need a sink." You would be laughed at! Also the likelyhood is that if something important came along, they wouldn't use you.

2 "We never pay a cent until we see the final product."
This is a croc, unless the person is leaving the door open to cheat you out of your pay. Virtually every profession requres a deposit or incremental payment during anything but the smallest project. Once you have a working relationship, you may work out another arrangement with a client. But a new client should not ask you to go beyond an initial meeting and, perhaps some preliminary sketches without pay on the job!

3 "Do this for us and you'll get great exposure! The jobs will just pour in!"
Baloney. Tell a plumber "Install this sink and my friend will see and you'll get lots of business!" Our plumber friend would say "You mean even if I do a good job I have to give my work away to get noticed? Then it isn't worth the notice." Also the guy would likely brag to everyone he knows about how this would normally cost (X) dollars, but brilliant businessman that he is he got if for free! If anyone calls, they'll expect the same or better deal.

4 On looking at sketches or concepts: "Well, we aren't sure if we want to use you yet, but leave your material here so I can talk to my partner/investor/wife/clergy."You can be sure that 15 minutes after you leave he will be on the phone to other designers, now with concepts in hand, asking for price quotes. When you call back you will be informed that your prices were too high and Joe Blow Design/Illustration will be doing the job. Why shouldn't they be cheaper? You just gave them hours of free consulting work! Until you have a deal, LEAVE NOTHING CREATIVE at the clients office.

5 "Well, the job isn't CANCELLED, just delayed. Keep the account open and we'll continue in a month or two."
Ummm, probably not. If something is hot, then not, it could be dead. It would be a mistake to *not* bill for work performed at this point and then let the chips fall where they may! Call in two months and someone else may be in that job. And guess what? They don't know you at all.....

6 "Contract? We don't need no stinking contact! Aren't we friends?"Yes, we are, until something goes wrong or is misunderstood, then you are the jerk in the suit and I am that idiot designer, then the contract is essential. That is, unless one doesn't care about being paid. Any reputable business uses paperwork to define relationships and you should too.

7 "Send me a bill after the work goes to press."
Why wait for an irrelevant deadline to send an invoice? You stand behind your work, right? You are honest, right? Why would you feel bound to this deadline? Once you deliver the work and it is accepted, BILL IT. This point may just be a delaying tactic so the job goes through the printer prior to any question of your being paid. If the guy waits for the job to be printed, and you do changes as necessary, then he can stiff you and not take a chance that he'll have to pay someone else for changes.

8 "The last guy did it for XXX dollars."
That is irrelevant. If the last guy was so good they wouldn't be talking to you, now would they? And what that guy charged means nothing to you, really. People who charge too little for their time go out of business (or self-destruct financially, or change occupations) and then someone else has to step in. Set a fair price and stick to it.

9 "Our budget is XXX dollars, firm."
Amazing, isn't it? This guy goes out to buy a car, and what, knows exactly what he is going to spend before even looking or researching? Not likely. A certain amount of work costs a certain amount of money. If they have less money (and you *can*) do less work and still take the job. But make sure they understand that you are doing less work if you take less money that you originally estimated. Give fewer comps, simplify, let them go elsewhere for services (like films) etc.

10 "We are having financial problems. Give us the work, we'll make some money and we'll pay you. Simple."
Yeah, except when the money comes, you can expect that you will be pretty low on the list to be paid. If someone reaches the point where they admit that the company is in trouble, then they are probably much worse off than they are admitting to. Even then, are you a bank? Are you qualified to check out their financials? If the company is strapped to the point where credit is a problem through credit agencies, banks etc. what business would you have extending credit to them. You have exactly ZERO pull once they have the work. Noble intentions or not, this is probably a losing bet. But if you are going to roll the dice, AT LEAST you should be getting additional money for waiting. The bank gets interest and so should you. That is probably why the person is approaching you; to get six months worth of free interest instead of paying bank rates for credit and then paying you with that money. Don't give away money.


Now, this list wasn't meant to make anyone crazy or paranoid, but is designed to inject some reality into the fantasy.

You are GOING to be dealing with people who are unlike yourself. Their motivations are their own and their attitudes are probably different than yours. There are going to be demands, problems, issues and all the hassles that go with practically ANY work/job/money situation. Too many times I see the sad example of someone walking in to a situation with noble intentions and then getting royally screwed, because what they see as an opportunity and a labor of love, the other party sees as something else entirely, not at all romantic or idealized, but raw and simple.

How can you deal with this stuff and still do good creative work? Good question. THIS is why an education is important. You learn, out of the line of fire, how to deal with the art at it's own level and also how to deal with the crap that surrounds it. You may have tough teachers and think that it can't be worse, but wait until a business person has a hundred grand riding on your art! Then you will know what "demanding" means. You will then thank all those tough teachers for building up the calluses that enable you to enjoy the job rather than just feeling like it is all a big waste of time!

In the end, working commercially, being a terrific artist is about 25% of the task. If that is the only part of the task that you are interested in, do yourself a favor. Don't turn "pro."

thanx...very infomative...

Good post!

Whoa! Pinned! XD

*feels special*

from a book or online?

i think the next article should be how do you get big bucks though from a small project.

i think from on9

i got several of those excuses when dealing with clients, but so far none has cheated on me, hehe

i had already been cheated.. I was tricked with no 4 and 10. It's been 3 years now...
... if only i had read this article before approaching the client.

ouhh i never do that. i'll bring my work to show (printed) and i'll bring it home.

i'll make them pay 50% of the total agreed amount 1st. then i show them bit by bit. at least even if they run off i still have 50%...... but depends la. if the customer is my friend's friend i don't mind putting on the web and show them the progress.

other than that. no way man.

hey not jsut artist. u can applied these in ur whole life. infested_ysy jus tmake my life better~ :

is it okay if it's on progress basis?
10% work done then pay 10% of total agreed payment...
no cash upfront before any work is done

interesting....

good post!

sometimes its kinda difficult not to leave the artworks with the clients....

worst is when u han those fussy client yet dunno what they actually wanted. U keep changing and changing according to their taste and in the end, u spend more than u earn.

lessons = try to be firm to push our original idea across.

Hi all,

Just stumbled upon this. Being a designer/artist myself, I can't help but wish someone gave me this years ago, when I first started work.

Anyways, excellent link, thanks for posting it infested_ysy.

cheers

Actually is apply not only to designer, but to software programmer as well.
Unless you have full confident with the person you are working for, always ask for deposit or incremental payment.
It's not easy, but hey, business is business, no want work for free.

it's dat damn true~~~~~~~~~~~

Designers we stand!!!!!

Very good post dude....seriously, people only take you for a ride coz you look like a chap who can be taken for a ride....they'll only push as far as you're willing them to push!!....

Guys who're fresh outta design school or whatever school take heed on the 10 rules above....it does some serious damage to your confidence if on the first few jobs or so you get conned....

And if you're new and want to break into the market.....charge the first few jobs below the market.....don't do it all the time.....coz you'll kill the market!!....imagine some other dude comin outta school an charges 50% your rate......sucks doesn't it......buck the trend and push to market rate after the first few jobs and at least then we won't have clients asking for RM2 designs!!!.....

Cheers.....

good post, well said,

vote for sticky! good stuff.

EDIT: eh sticky already, blurnye me

This post has been edited by Jason: May 26 2005, 01:06 PM

1 "Do this one cheap (or free) and we'll make it up on the next one."
No reputable business person would first give away their work and time or merchandise on the hope of making it up later.

For new clients, usually first jobs will be FOC only regarding the creative and artwork. Productions cost will still be charged. This is to show them our interest in handling their work. Need some good PR skills in this. So far, all of my new clients are my main clients now

2 "We never pay a cent until we see the final product."
This is a croc, unless the person is leaving the door open to cheat you out of your pay.

For companies, this wouldnt be a problem. But for freelancers, this is a major headache.

3 "Do this for us and you'll get great exposure! The jobs will just pour in!"

YES. it does help to promote you and your company very well. If your project does well with your client, definitely you'll be noticed by others especially when your client is big company with a lot of franchise brands. You win one brand and the others will follow-up. I'm from a In-house design company and still we manage to secure some works that are supposedly done by some other International Advertising companies.

4 On looking at sketches or concepts: Until you have a deal, LEAVE NOTHING CREATIVE at the clients office.

5 "Well, the job isn't CANCELLED, just delayed. Keep the account open and we'll continue in a month or two."
Ummm, probably not. If something is hot, then not, it could be dead. It would be a mistake to *not* bill for work performed at this point and then let the chips fall where they may! Call in two months and someone else may be in that job. And guess what? They don't know you at all.....

No 4 and 5 is closely related. This is where your Professionalism is needed the most. Try to create an impression of superiority when dealing with clients like these although we know that clients are always right. When they sense that u are too soft or the type that says YES to everything, game over. Sometimes we have to make our clients listen to us. Another major problem for freelancers.

6 "Contract? We don't need no stinking contact!

Never sign contracts. They are going to suck out every last drop of life out of u. U dont need any contracts if you are good and well known. Clients will swarm around u asking for your expertise. Nevermind the glamour of being hooked with some particular fancy big company. What matters is what u deliver.

7 "Send me a bill after the work goes to press."

Same as clause 4 and 5

8 "The last guy did it for XXX dollars."

This is a way where clients will push u to reduce your quotation or billings. Maybe it's just a phsycological attack on you to make u feel inferior as they have others to do the work for them. In my case, this usually happens in the production part. They will start to compare your price with other suppliers. What I usually do is to answer them like this "Nevermind, u can ask other suppliers to handle the production but I will not guarantee the quality of the finishing at the end". Trust me, they will be back crawling asking u to help them again.

9 "Our budget is XXX dollars, firm."

Never trust them with their silly budgets. Always at the end their budgets will go high above from their planned ones. Why? Bcause they are so fickled minded and can never make up their minds on what they are going to do. U have to becareful in this matter as sometimes as a designer u have to absorb some of the xtra costs. Be good in planning your projects financially and learn to say NO to your clients.

10 "We are having financial problems. Give us the work, we'll make some money and we'll pay you. Simple."

One of the things that u have to consider bfore meeting your client is to do some research about them. YES, it definitely will help u interacting with them in the future but it is also necessary to find out about them financially.



These are the realities when u step into the real advertising world.



Remember this phrase - clients are always right bcause they are the ones that
usually screw u up no matter who is wrong or right. Becareful when dealing with clients with attitude problems



Learn from experiences. Thats never once in a designers life that is full of successful projects. There will be definitely some that will encounter problems.

Students at art colleges tend to get over confident with their college projects. Their projects compared to the real lifes ones are totally different.



Terrific artist? I'll prefer terrifying artist. 25% is not enough to stay alive in this line. Dont say pro, your are not even qualified to be an artist!

These is all what i've experienced in my 11 years in hell with advertising, thousands of sleepless nights, migraine, gastric (the word breakfast, lunch and dinner dont exist within me), the office is my second home, completion of a project is just like finishing SPM, knowing u gonna get screwed up by your client later.

Are all these replies relevant to the in-house world or the freelance world? Please don't say it's the same because it is really another world unless in-house you're the do-it-all person.

I speak from a freelancers POV and honestly think your addition to this topic might start confusing or even frighten designers here. It's good and bad in its own way. I just don't feel that teaching designers to be as cruel as the clients will get the country anywhere in progression.

I think all we need right now is to teach both designers and clients the equality of discussing on the same level.

i've been working as a freelancer bfore - its not confusing or frightening, but thats what they are going to face in reality

BTW between in-house, a great advertising firm or freelancing has one common thing - management. you'll be safe from all the hazards above if you can handle your works properly -with or without help



You have to do that if u wanna live in the advertising world. Stand out to be the best

This post has been edited by providence: Jun 4 2005, 12:12 PM

What I meant as cruel was in reference of how you want designers to react against clients. Example, if the client wants you to lower down your prices, you don't have to lower it at an absurd rate and if the client still doesn't wanna work with you, a designer shouldn't go, "you should be listening to me..so if you don't wanna listen then fine..go seek someone else."

My principles of negotiation is to discuss things on a similar level. Not to try establishing a somewhat holier than thou type of war. We have to understand that we are partially to blame for the distorted web market in Malaysia now. Due to the fact of some small companies/freelancers charging ridiculously low prices, they have caused pain to others.

Anyway, I'm having a discussion of this soon-to-be long topic on my blog. Don't want to lengthen this pin thread that said what it had to already in the first post.

Cheers.

This post has been edited by etsuko: Jun 4 2005, 02:11 PM

Sorry for all the fuss created by me in this thread.

Etsuko- thanks for your tolerance

I just wanna give the designers wannabes out there some points of survival

No worries. We both were after the best for everyone here so they manage to survive in the world later.

Cheers.

I use the "Take it or leave it" theory, well sound no problem to me. For every designersis something you should treat it as common threat. In business there always risk. If you don't take risk you won't get any $$$$

This post has been edited by SupermotoXL: Jul 3 2005, 03:24 PM

great advise, but i think this works in everyday life, but not always, life is unfair

and if u take too much risk you gonna loose $$$$


thats why some idiot came up with this stupid phrase
No matter what - clients are always right

haha, cari makan saja, cool it man! lol
if ur a boss, u'll do the same thing

can use 4 guide, just becareful when u r a freelancer to get some job, coz now many client cant trust 1! so hard to get payment.....

ekks.. wat a fantastic article.. i lately did a proj so so called multinational company.. they offered me excuses 1,2 and 3. Top 3.. anyway i manage to extract 85% of the payment.. So stingy Guys..

ahem..wells.
i hv some question here..
I am a Fresh student still studying in Web,Multimedia Design In Diploma ..but no Art..But getting to graduate soon..

i am just affraid..wat job Career am i suppost to do..after i graduate..
If it Doing FreeLunch good?or just straight away enter a company for work??
if enter..wat are a company should i enter and..wat kind job of Responbility..should i do with?

i heards that..u can get very good previlege and good money when doing free lunch job..and u can hold a few project in a month..rather sit at the company..getting 1.few hundred K..salary.
is it that..so easily as u think?hmm..
i dont hv any working exp on tis field..yet..

please someone expert out there..please guide me..


This post has been edited by kokanchai: Dec 11 2005, 01:15 PM

Total Truth of these....personally also have encounter some stupid businessman that come out with project.... is hard to get good customer....
Is a work and you need to pay for it.... you can't compare our job with other people jobs...
To be honest...if the client value your intellectual property then he will pay the amount you should get...but in malaysia most SME bosses is like jerk even some big company trying to extract everything out of new n innocent people...how could this happen.... they should respect the work....is a property...intellectual....

First of all FreeLuch = Freelance
If you need some advice about freelancing in web design - u can refer to ETSUKO
He is one of the forumer here that is doing that.

The things u need to have to earn hundreds of K with freelancing is work experience, good PR skills and confidence. And it will take quite some time for u to reach that level unless u hit a jackpot with a big company.

Please take note that by doing freelancing, you are not registered as a company. Without any official invoices, DO or PO the chances of getting conned is high

As much as clients cause a pain in the backside to many designers. Designers should definitely self educate themself upon alot of factors whether its regarding marketing themself, quotation prices or etc. Alot of student graduates do not know whats going on in the market. Hence there is so many problems with under charge designers or 'pseudo' designers out there. They are ruining the market and alot of them are ignorant and naive. People should start an awareness campaign or a workshop in colleges or universities to solve this problem

Yup, there's the one point mostly all the colleges doesnt include in their design course.
Exposure to the real world of advertising/design. Mostly fresh graduates will feel almighty when they graduate with good results or recommendations from their lecturers but when they enroll into a new company, the environment will be totally different and they will start to feel inferior.

Colleges should add a subject - preferable a practical for all the final year students where they have to work for a few months in a recommended advertising agency or Inhouse design company. This will be a good preparation for them when they start they new jobs in the future.

Cheers

1 out of 10 i'm not agree.. Y? being a pasionate artist/designer.. first .. we doesn't think bout money, money came in 2nd place... let it be if other people can charge 50% lower than u... wat u wan is satisfaction and originality on your design.. and ur touch right? everybody can design.. even the layman... but the talent here we talk about... if u doing for money ... u 'll not be a true artist or designer... and u won't go far... eg: if da vinci or le corb do it for money... i think we'll not heard their existing.

For a beginner, YES. You have to work mainly aiming to get your client's acknowledgement WOW MY ENGRISH! and usually client definitely will go for the lower offered price when come to this matter. For a true designer, work comes first then profit but without sufficient funds or capital, you are not going to survive. Always think that whether your work(s) are equally paid according to its quality or not. If you can do a great masterpiece and still charge it for a low price, your clients will be happy but to us designers, with that kind of price - it makes your work look rather un-quality.

PS : if you go to any local arts exhibition by our local artist especially paintings, check their prices and you will see wether they do it for money or not

It is true dat local ppl dun seems the web design will cost even up to Rm500.
I had been wasting quite alot of time meeting clients dat is not really keen to haf a website(after knowing the price) even though my price is comparably average level.

Recently, my friend can't get back his RM1500 as last payment.

one of the reasons why i didn't want to join the arts programs, (i took accounts) was because the fact that this kind of work is easily exported. How hard would it be, to pay someone through paypal in the US for a small commission, and he'll send you the work.

It's greatly outsourced, which is a problem. That means, competition for this stream of work is intense, because the job can either be yours, or some fella in korea or russia. Your talent will be matched against those of the world, and if you ain't good enough, you'll lose behind.

Time, is also against you. Everyone knows that everyone else is improving, and so, you will have to improve too. But barely starting, how good can you be compared to the likes of the professionals?

Comissions for few hundred can be obtained easily through sites like deviantart and cgtalk, thus reducing the amount of potential business for locals.

At the same time, if you have the talent, you can get paid from overseas. People will want you to design their stuff, and all across the world, you can have quite a good pay.

My 2 cents. Good day.

I dont really think locals businesses actually take the time to search for potential artist in deviant art and cg talks. Alot of them are unknowledgeable about alot of things. What your speaking on is exactly the same as any other profession, you dont start of a professional you make yourself one or you go and find work somewhere else. Everyone has the equal chance to expose and self educate themselfs about the market as well as updating themself with new market and social knowledge. It isn't impossible and as a matter of fact speaking from a 20 yr old student / freelancer. I get work most of the time and I believe in competition. Why shouldnt we be competitive with international professionals. This is the nature of any business and everyone knows that, either shape up or ship out. Maybe i'm abit harsh but your perspective on this is slightly narrow and quite negative.

Places such as deviantart and cg are places to look for potential talents. Whats wrong with a company looking there for 'professionals' when you cannot provide them what they want. I'm so called 'barely starting' but I've worked freelance over a year and get very interesting jobs as well get a pay that I want. Its not just about commissioning stuff overseas. Its about our current design standard in Malaysia which is currently low. We got so many pseudo designers who claim themselves designers when their actually technicians. Overall our design scene is young, but we also need to have 'quality' not quantity, and right now in the market we have alot of unemployed Designers, not cause of the lack of jobs.

But the lack of (you fill in the blanks)...

talent? is that the word you want me to fill in, or is it something else?

In our country, i often feel that it isn't the lack of talent, but those who have the talent pursuing some other career.

the word is definitely not talent my friend... I feel we have plenty of that as we do of graphic designers...
we have people who are lack of exposure, the ability to want to be open and learn more.
Are you telling me the average graduate Design student knows whats going on in the market?
Or that they know the basic sense of 'professionalism?' or how to research on specific topics or on the market? How to actually find jobs? Why is our turnout every year in graduates from design schools who work in the market so low?

Honestly what do you think is the source of these problems. If your saying we cant even compete with professionals what is our solution? Give up and try another profession? Our film, design and music scene have been struggling for the last decade and it hasnt struggled for no apparent reason.

there are competitions, contests held by game design studios, there are online art sites, and there's something the artists themselves need to do. The artist should not limit himself to learning from jobs. There are so many places to learn, aren't there?

Exposure is in a part of the problem. There is a lack of vibrance and community of digital/traditional illustrators and designers here. I've heard that having contacts in the West was very important, as recommendations from a fellow designer can often help a person find jobs.

As you said, the jobs are there, but then, what is wrong? Do the artists see nothing to learn from this jobs, or what?

Exposure. I think there should be some sort of internship/apprenticeship system in our country, although i doubt it'll work. These people should also try to promote themselves at all the job fairs and stuff. They should attend any convention of companies, give them the designers contacts and stuff. Even if they don't have a job now, later they might do.

Unfortunately, the odds are stacked against the designer. Malaysia's need for adverstisement is limited in the sense that the mediums are limited, the population in tune that responds to it is small.

Lastly, I think the population itself doesn't support locals. The companies buy foreign stuff because frankly, they are businesses, they know foreign art can appreciate and stuff, their goal is to make money, not 'sponsor' local artists who don't seem particular serious, and just rather indulge in abstractive paints. (not all artists are like that, just some)

A lot of my opinions are skewed. SWT...

Lets just list down a list of things that some graduates dont do-

1) Behave and always act professional
2) Dress properly
3) Taking responsiblity and dealing with time management
4) marketing themselves or companies
5) Research and find out more practically to anything not just design but the country and society itself.
6) Self educate + self learn
7) passionate and persistent
8) ask questions
9) ask intelligent questions
10) Take critique (this is a big bloody issue in Malaysia, many designers are unable to take criticism or critiques well, they see it as a personal attack instead of something which can come out to be positive and constructive).
11) Presentation
....

I could go on but I wish not too. Our problem is not the lack of support for local, after all designers dont need support, they wish more for 'recognition'. They dont receive this as yes malaysia's market is still young and not quite matured yet. But this cannot be an excuse to problems that hold designers down.

I attended a ceremony recently back 3 months ago of my seniors in LICT and the One academy where they were holding exhibitions of their work and no offence but about 80 % of them cannot design or know the term design. A person knows how to use a photoshop, director or illustrator counts themself straight away as a designer. The term designer here isn't taken professionally and seriously. Overseas a person who is a doctor or a lawyer has to uphold that sense of professionalism as well as the maturity and the mentality for that particular occupation, whilst for designers everywhere not just in Malaysia we have this constant dilemma.

I do agree that we do lack workshops and conventions here, but I ask you what are people doing here about it? Are you telling me people cant form their own competitions or workshops? Or start a community or a club with a general interest to learn?

The problem is with the people. Every root of problem in society is from the person. People are make things complicated, not life.

This post has been edited by nada-: Jan 18 2006, 10:01 PM

life as designer is like that...

well said

you're so right...my life

The price quoted how worthy are your works. If one just do it just for interest, but not $, how can one survive in this world? All of us do our job with payment, remembering there is no free lunch in this world. Being passionate or not doesn't count in when it comes to "are you having enough of $ to buy bread today?"

By the by, Da Vinci got famous after he is dead. All the time he is poor, because his work is not up to recognition at his living time. If one's works are not valuable while at his/her living time, it's useless to have a masterpiece that is worth a million only after his/her death because he/she can't enjoy using the $ at all.

My 2 cents.

hehhehe...it usually come hard when it comes to friends......

wow... learnt a lot from first post. thanks for the tips infested_ysy

interesting...
interms of art... same fields as architecture...
mostly architect in malaysia is poor... profesionalism is not the case...
but the client itself... who doesn't know or educated valuable art/design...
but for next ten years... i think...they slowly aware.
As u know ... we're slowly enter to digitize/visual world... (globalization)
one more thing... in middle ease .. they know malaysian have lot of talent... in designing/visual communication...
keep it positive!

artist motto: impression /to be named = priceless... money can't buy!

I treat friends as clients and clients as friends so it doesn't make a difference. There's no special treatment when it comes to work. The only extras friends might get is more consultation because they're more willing to listen to another friend.

After all, they're your friends before becoming a client.

The Information is very helpful, thanks alot! infested_ysy

hi,
Right now i am doing internship, talking about dealing with client, you know wat.. it really irritates me that they are so fuzzing, i re-design the art work like more than 15 times and still they haunt me to add this and that, but thats okay for me.. when client told us to re-design the whole thing and this pissed me off. What my boss told me is some of the client are picky, i feel very frustrated, but what can i do, i still do what i can to satify clients.

Yes is true that before i went outside the world expecting my art work is just all right, but when i come out to work and i realize i am in a whole new world a whole new level.



My lecturers always critique my artwork until he reach the point where i show him good quality work, even my lecturer hulimate me infront of my classmate. That doesn't matter, all that matter now is to improve yourself and get prepare to face the world. I take critque very seriously and i dont take it personal, i take it as motivation!

This post has been edited by Plant: Aug 16 2006, 04:41 PM

the first post was really informative. thank u very much!!!

Thanx!! Helped alot...!

That is the truth everybody, been conned twice already, my design other people modify a bit & packaging design with no return reply, Should have Print A BIG BOLD SAMPLE over the artwork...dammit, still gets to me everytime.

very usefull 1st post.. I'm a diploma comp science grad.. but I'm interested in becoming a graphic designer..

"A person knows how to use a photoshop, director or illustrator counts themself straight away as a designer" its a very interesting quote from nada.. is knowledge and the love for art more important then knowledge of graphic softwares?

I would like to ask from some advice...
I'm consider fresh in design filed as I have no experience/exposure.
But currently I'm applying for designing job.

The other day I went for an interview, the interviewer request me to do a storyboard based on 3 different concept design for anything like lipstick/hair products in 1 week time. Then send 2 him to see to evaluate my work.
Then only he would discuss/ maybe call me for a 2nd interview.

Then I read No. 4 ( does this apply to this kind of situation as well??)

might be trying to get u to do his project?

sounds fishy as hell.. i was fooled once using this same keji technique. these days i only send flattened JPEG file in LOW quality.. pixelated. if they want hi res they better pay me first!!

Or you can insert a BIG watermark on the products saying "DESIGN BY XXXX".

That usually does the trick.

But watermarks can be photoshopped out, while low res pics cannot be "up-res"-ed.

ok, a question here~
how about artworks for magazine submission?

example : a magazine ask me to create an artwork to be featured in the magazine, or maybe ask me to design a cover and put my name/url as credit?

i see it as a way to expose myself, so i dont really care about being paid~
but should i actually need to request for payment?
and if yes, how much should it be?

thanks!!!

sometimes they can use such tactics to get ideas from applicants.

they may not end up hiring any at all but they have a lot of ideas (usually good ones la, cos you want to impress to get a job mah).

what you can do is come up with the idea and tell them that you will do the presentation.

of course, the idea still has to go out some how la but it could be a better way to safeguard yourself.

but later when you're hired, all credits go to the company. it'll end up as a portfolio of the company and not you. blabalblabla read the T&C of the company in detail.


yeah, but in some cases it's more than just watermark issue.

it's the idea that went along.




it's really up to you.


depends on how's the watermark done.

This post has been edited by goldfries: Apr 19 2007, 03:44 PM

Hey man great post, i wish i have read this post earlier well as a designer we must be equip with all the knowledge in dealing with clients.

i had an experience with my friend's family company, i wanna add one more point.


11. Could you change this ASAP now, the printer is in my office and awaiting the source file, after ur done could u send to me now.

12. No matter its ur close fren or relative, keep your rules straight when working with them.

- i was dealing with my 3 years close classmate, i let down my guards bassically i trusted her.... in the end after all is done... i went to her company to collect my pay check from her father the (OWNER of a business School ) a small one.... he told me this.

Client : i required 12 more designs for my event could u do it up by next week. and i will pay u when its done.

Me : We had an agreement that once i complete the current design i will get my payment, could i get 70% first since i have completed the task.

Client : NO, only 30% for now, after u completed wat i ask u wil lget ur pay. DONT BE GREEDY.

and i got my 30% i have no choice but to accept it, i told my fren about it as shes the one who requested for me to help her dad, she say she couldnt help me it's her dad. almost a year pass i nv did the 12 designs nor they or my fren even call me about it.

well ya .. i have the similar experience ..

a cousin wanted to open a new shop and asked me to design a logo for him . After i designed the logo and wanted to colect payment . But then he want to change the whole concept of it, TOTALY NOT THE SAME as he saying.

After i change as he say, and wish to colect some deposit. But the same word came out "dun be greedy" .... and he ask me to change again. This time is not the design, but is the name of the shop. ( My god, you tot really like delete and retyping word in computer ar ? ) and dun want to pay me anything.

so, i had stoped totally his job, and to fellow designer. PLEASE COLLECT DEPOSIT BEFORE U START WORKING!

I think the main problem in the Malaysian market is that clients tend to be more particular about cost than quality, thus encouraging designers, particularly those fresh and/or doing freelance to charge lower than the market.

I, myself admit that I have no knowledge about the market price when i used to freelance(I'm a fresh grad btw). Companies are not keen to expose interns and trainees to market prices as they will look to commission jobs to you after your training/internship period. In the end, I just charge what I feel my work deserves.

And in response to the post that stated the terms design/designers are used too loosely, I disagree, cause in my opinion, everybody can design. A design can be as simple as positioning a dot on a blank canvas. The difference is whether it is a good/bad design.

Of course, if someone is merely executing someone else's design/idea (i.e. creating an artwork in Photoshop without realising/questioning it's function/motives/meaning, merely based on client's wishes) then he/she is merely a technician.

And regarding the tips, it's useful but in the end it all boils down to management, do you do it the tough and professional way, or you're more into the casual and friendly way. Both will make/lose you clients and/or dollars, so it's really up to your style/personality... and luck

Please note the above are just my opinions and everyone is entitled to have opinions of their own.

This post has been edited by bryan85: Jul 18 2007, 12:37 PM

that's a realy nice idea of u.....now i can work with my design without worry been fool.... thanx man...

GOOOd postt

i collect 50% payment before moving my mouse for anyone's design.

they'll get 100% of their stuff only AFTER they pay in full.

Always, always keep your source files safe!

Too often I see designers/salesdude who come for a presentation pitch end up not removing their files from my laptop.

Also, for presentation, they didn't organize their files well. So they just copy the ENTIRE work folder into my PC. Meaning their psd, ai, fla, dir files are just 'given' to the client. How to cari makan like that!? End up I have to remind them about it.

Well, this is not exactly on-topic. But I think this will be a good reminder for all.

i was actually a "victim" to a few of the said above
but experience is always a good teacher!

lolz... should have read this before coming out to the work force -- then again, it all boils down to PR skills. Great info!!!

Good post...at least i learn something

i think its easy to ask money up front once u have a "name". trust me bro when i first started they all say this

"ala baru start wanna ask money. u so good ah wanna ask money first. lemme see sample first then we talk"

then next thing i knew i got my work copied. they just get some runt to copy my design. and they pay a quarter of the quaoted prize to this noob. it all boils down to ethics. will u do comission work based on copying other people's work. unless us designers unite and say tak nak to copypasta then the client will always find a way to steal ideas!

aih. even now i no name also i tell them to pay upfront ler.

they're ok wan. those that are not ok with it, i rather you don't do business with them.

you have the rights to decide whether to take on the project.

useful information for me . thanks

Ewalo and warmest greetings from the natives of Headshot.

If this article did make people to go crazy or paranoid (as said in the article post)... then IT IS THEM THEMSELVES WHO CANNOT HANDLE THE TRUTH.

So, it's very good tips.

Thanks so very much.

But however, I am now possibily handling a small poster announcement project, which I myself agreed to do it for free (because I myself wanted to do it SO badly lol)... any say on this? Need to know what you dudes think about this.





LunaG @ Headshot @ 2007

This post has been edited by LunaG: Jan 27 2008, 01:14 AM

erm... my opinion

everytime i go pitching for any project/interviews, i'd haf my portfolio cd, published/unpublished artwork samples/moodboards and also the physical items i'd designed. and i never put any raw/source files inside those portfolio cd, and of course pix would be in low res + watermark. the physical stuffz and samples/moodboards, aren't for em to keep. instead my portfolio cd's cover is actually a folder which holds my printed portfolio. size is so small that if they scanned, they barely get much outta it. tiru by eyes? ah... by all means, silakan. answer God in hell.

so if they say "lemme see sample work first" , i'd say "here u go! owh u dun haf a pc do u? what a shame"
the last sentence is of course exaggerating

but wutever it is, nuthing is easymoney. itsa a cuel world.


This post has been edited by binxz: Jan 28 2008, 03:37 AM

Have 2 build a microlight n a lighting sculpture b4 the end of term 2.......huhu............

Nice thread! Thanks to everyone for sharing their invaluable experience~

BTW, the best thing about not being a pro....

U don't like it, i don't give a damn. Stay away from my art--

This post has been edited by Cute & Wired: Feb 21 2008, 08:37 AM

Goldfries, hats down to you man.

Not many designers or freelancers can opt 50% deposite frm clients easily ler..(and stil get it)

If they dun wan, u rather not do? wic means that way u doing realy realy well??

Sure u got name liao.. wat year u graduate? wic schl ?
btw u freelancing as webdesigner?

nice post ill be sure to follow those words when i start working later......

good post! cheers!

i think i got cheated using no.4 during school XD another club took my designs and used them without payin me~ grr~ *_* good thing i learned before going even starting work.... (actually not 100% heading towards the holy path of the designer.. but i think its a cool job)

thanks again!

This post has been edited by UzukiNoKaze: Apr 28 2008, 06:49 PM

nice post .....

As a freelancer...this is sooooo freakin' true, haha. One should not even show the completed work even requested digitally as clients might rob your intellectual property and idea after some visual presentation. Insist on a darn deposit, or at least place a watermark regardless of a soft or hardcopy! >.<

Thanks for your information

---

Added on July 1, 2008, 10:24 amGood post...

This post has been edited by Kenvess: Jul 1 2008, 10:24 AM

i'm glad this thread is still active, it is helpful.

in either point in the thread it happens one or two of it before. as a result, if a reputable hiring creative company would do creditable testing of the candidates computer skill or creativity in one way or another. somehow fishy ones will ask for copy of past work or thinking of to probe into the projects going. non ethical.

_________________________________________________

@iNsAnIaC85

have this question. is it true that freelancer will have to give their softcopy (or original framework version) rather than printouts (i.e pdf/jpg which i think is highly sufficient for their business level of output) whenever the client wants it? is this appropriate when the deal paid was for the creative idea in the first place?

i have unreasonable client using this remark to get the original work.

This post has been edited by toki: Jul 2 2008, 02:57 PM

Wow..unbelievable.Very informative stuff.
And i thought i was the only one kena.Thanks for sharing ur experiences everyone.Should tell my fren about this.I'm sure every freelancer kena all this tactics before.

Maybe should list down all those bad ass client here for the freelancers to know.

thanks for the tips

shall keep them in mind when i finish my studies!

I was reading these posts and though they are old they can apply anytime. I would add:

The next LIE is being a sub-contractor of another designer and being told:
A) We never got paid by the client so we cant pay you.
B) Can you work cheap this time? We're not making any profit on this job.
C) The person you contracted with isnt with our company anymore AND/OR the person you contracted with had no authority to make a deal with you.

These are all lies.

Dont assume just because youre getting hired that anyone will pay you. In your excitement about getting work, you forgot essentials like who is really responsible to pay, and when? Make sure you are clear about how/when/what before you agree to work and the best way is to spell it out in writing.

Next, I want to add that you should never do mock-ups of ideas for the project and leave those with the client. What you should do is give samples of your past work, your capability and let them decide to hire you or not. If they want progress submitted, make sure you have a contract in force first that provides for payment, even partial payment. You dont have to RECEIVE the money now but you need the promise firmly in place. If they drop you half-way through the project, they still owe something--spell it out in black and white before you start.

Next, finished work should be submitted with your invoice.

Next, you need to search the web for contract samples and USE them. Also, you can freely download Microsoft Office templates for Invoices, Service Agreements, etc.

Next, any contract you use should includes words to the effect that your work is your intellectual property. Who has the rights to use and modify your work in the future? How will your work be used now and later and by whom? If your client tells others about your ideas and another company start using them, is anyone responsible to you? What about copyrighting your work?

What i do is more or less this--"This job is my work, time, energy, creativity and therefore my property. On completion of your payment, you will have the free licence to use the work for the intended purpose set forth in the contract dated 3 Sept, 2008, and for no other purpose." If they wont sign that, I dont work.

Youre talking about your future and your livelihood. Perhaps you should get a lawyer to provide a contract template for you. Remember, your ideas are your gold. Protect them!

This post has been edited by ChasV: Sep 4 2008, 01:27 PM

ouhhh. i miss out this post for half a year!



thanks. actually can wan. as long as people have confidence in you. why not?



depends la. some client they reasonable, trustworthy then ok lor.

some want to DP less, ok lor. subjected to my decision.

i run my own company.

---

Added on September 4, 2008, 3:25 pmyes. correct.

a) i make it a point, you don't pay me - we still control your stuff.

b) that one is nonsense la you no profit is your business. nothing to do with me.

c) again - none of my business. your company has flaws in management, that's your problem.


This post has been edited by goldfries: Sep 4 2008, 03:25 PM

Thanks for putting this up, very informative. =3 I guess, to date, too many naive designers have been cheated, sigh.