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 Top 10 Lies told to Naive Artists and Designers, So you wanna turn pro? Listen up....

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LunaG
post Jan 27 2008, 01:11 AM

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Ewalo and warmest greetings from the natives of Headshot.

If this article did make people to go crazy or paranoid (as said in the article post)... then IT IS THEM THEMSELVES WHO CANNOT HANDLE THE TRUTH.

So, it's very good tips.

Thanks so very much.

But however, I am now possibily handling a small poster announcement project, which I myself agreed to do it for free (because I myself wanted to do it SO badly lol)... any say on this? Need to know what you dudes think about this.





LunaG @ Headshot @ 2007

This post has been edited by LunaG: Jan 27 2008, 01:14 AM
binxz
post Jan 28 2008, 03:36 AM

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QUOTE(obefiend @ Nov 14 2007, 03:53 PM)
i think its easy to ask money up front once u have a "name". trust me bro when i first started they all say this

"ala baru start wanna ask money. u so good ah wanna ask money first. lemme see sample first then we talk"

then next thing i knew i got my work copied. they just get some runt to copy my design. and they pay a quarter of the quaoted prize to this noob. it all boils down to ethics. will u do comission work based on copying other people's work. unless us designers unite and say tak nak to copypasta then the client will always find a way to steal ideas!
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erm... my opinion

everytime i go pitching for any project/interviews, i'd haf my portfolio cd, published/unpublished artwork samples/moodboards and also the physical items i'd designed. and i never put any raw/source files inside those portfolio cd, and of course pix would be in low res + watermark. the physical stuffz and samples/moodboards, aren't for em to keep. instead my portfolio cd's cover is actually a folder which holds my printed portfolio. size is so small that if they scanned, they barely get much outta it. tiru by eyes? ah... by all means, silakan. answer God in hell.

so if they say "lemme see sample work first" , i'd say "here u go! owh u dun haf a pc do u? what a shame"
the last sentence is of course exaggerating tongue.gif

but wutever it is, nuthing is easymoney. itsa a cuel world.


This post has been edited by binxz: Jan 28 2008, 03:37 AM
n0v4m4r1n3
post Feb 4 2008, 01:31 AM

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Have 2 build a microlight n a lighting sculpture b4 the end of term 2.......huhu............
Cute & Wired
post Feb 21 2008, 08:33 AM

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Nice thread! Thanks to everyone thumbup.gif for sharing their invaluable experience~

BTW, the best thing about not being a pro....

U don't like it, i don't give a damn. bruce.gif Stay away from my art--

This post has been edited by Cute & Wired: Feb 21 2008, 08:37 AM
caliber45
post Feb 25 2008, 12:44 PM

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QUOTE(goldfries @ Nov 14 2007, 04:13 PM)
aih. even now i no name also i tell them to pay upfront ler.

they're ok wan. those that are not ok with it, i rather you don't do business with them.

you have the rights to decide whether to take on the project. smile.gif
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Goldfries, hats down to you man. notworthy.gif

Not many designers or freelancers can opt 50% deposite frm clients easily ler..(and stil get it)

If they dun wan, u rather not do? wic means that way u doing realy realy well?? brows.gif

Sure u got name liao.. laugh.gif wat year u graduate? wic schl ?
btw u freelancing as webdesigner?
nikwing
post Apr 2 2008, 11:54 PM

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nice post ill be sure to follow those words when i start working later......
UzukiNoKaze
post Apr 28 2008, 06:46 PM

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good post! cheers!

i think i got cheated using no.4 during school XD another club took my designs and used them without payin me~ grr~ *_* good thing i learned before going even starting work.... (actually not 100% heading towards the holy path of the designer.. but i think its a cool job)

thanks again!

This post has been edited by UzukiNoKaze: Apr 28 2008, 06:49 PM
vo0de3_x | oum@n
post Apr 29 2008, 01:40 PM

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nice post ..... thumbup.gif

iNsAnIaC85
post May 2 2008, 04:31 PM

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As a freelancer...this is sooooo freakin' true, haha. One should not even show the completed work even requested digitally as clients might rob your intellectual property and idea after some visual presentation. Insist on a darn deposit, or at least place a watermark regardless of a soft or hardcopy! >.<
Kenvess
post Jun 27 2008, 04:37 PM

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Thanks for your information


Added on July 1, 2008, 10:24 amGood post...

This post has been edited by Kenvess: Jul 1 2008, 10:24 AM
toki
post Jul 2 2008, 02:54 PM

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i'm glad this thread is still active, it is helpful.

in either point in the thread it happens one or two of it before. as a result, if a reputable hiring creative company would do creditable testing of the candidates computer skill or creativity in one way or another. somehow fishy ones will ask for copy of past work or thinking of to probe into the projects going. non ethical.

_________________________________________________

@iNsAnIaC85

have this question. is it true that freelancer will have to give their softcopy (or original framework version) rather than printouts (i.e pdf/jpg which i think is highly sufficient for their business level of output) whenever the client wants it? is this appropriate when the deal paid was for the creative idea in the first place?

i have unreasonable client using this remark to get the original work.

This post has been edited by toki: Jul 2 2008, 02:57 PM
anotheryou
post Jul 11 2008, 12:32 AM

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Wow..unbelievable.Very informative stuff.
And i thought i was the only one kena.Thanks for sharing ur experiences everyone.Should tell my fren about this.I'm sure every freelancer kena all this tactics before.
NeoMnemonic
post Jul 11 2008, 05:30 PM

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Maybe should list down all those bad ass client here for the freelancers to know.
fernfern
post Aug 28 2008, 02:35 AM

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thanks for the tips biggrin.gif

shall keep them in mind when i finish my studies!
ChasV
post Sep 4 2008, 01:22 PM

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I was reading these posts and though they are old they can apply anytime. I would add:

The next LIE is being a sub-contractor of another designer and being told:
A) We never got paid by the client so we cant pay you.
B) Can you work cheap this time? We're not making any profit on this job.
C) The person you contracted with isnt with our company anymore AND/OR the person you contracted with had no authority to make a deal with you.

These are all lies.

Dont assume just because youre getting hired that anyone will pay you. In your excitement about getting work, you forgot essentials like who is really responsible to pay, and when? Make sure you are clear about how/when/what before you agree to work and the best way is to spell it out in writing.

Next, I want to add that you should never do mock-ups of ideas for the project and leave those with the client. What you should do is give samples of your past work, your capability and let them decide to hire you or not. If they want progress submitted, make sure you have a contract in force first that provides for payment, even partial payment. You dont have to RECEIVE the money now but you need the promise firmly in place. If they drop you half-way through the project, they still owe something--spell it out in black and white before you start.

Next, finished work should be submitted with your invoice.

Next, you need to search the web for contract samples and USE them. Also, you can freely download Microsoft Office templates for Invoices, Service Agreements, etc.

Next, any contract you use should includes words to the effect that your work is your intellectual property. Who has the rights to use and modify your work in the future? How will your work be used now and later and by whom? If your client tells others about your ideas and another company start using them, is anyone responsible to you? What about copyrighting your work?

What i do is more or less this--"This job is my work, time, energy, creativity and therefore my property. On completion of your payment, you will have the free licence to use the work for the intended purpose set forth in the contract dated 3 Sept, 2008, and for no other purpose." If they wont sign that, I dont work.

Youre talking about your future and your livelihood. Perhaps you should get a lawyer to provide a contract template for you. Remember, your ideas are your gold. Protect them!

This post has been edited by ChasV: Sep 4 2008, 01:27 PM
goldfries
post Sep 4 2008, 03:21 PM

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ouhhh. i miss out this post for half a year!

QUOTE(caliber45 @ Feb 25 2008, 12:44 PM)
Goldfries, hats down to you man.  notworthy.gif

Not many designers or freelancers can opt 50% deposite frm clients easily ler..(and stil get it)


biggrin.gif thanks. actually can wan. as long as people have confidence in you. why not?

QUOTE(caliber45 @ Feb 25 2008, 12:44 PM)
If they dun wan, u rather not do? wic means that way u doing realy realy well?? brows.gif


depends la. some client they reasonable, trustworthy then ok lor.

some want to DP less, ok lor. subjected to my decision.

QUOTE(caliber45 @ Feb 25 2008, 12:44 PM)
Sure u got name liao.. laugh.gif wat year  u graduate? wic schl ?
btw u freelancing as webdesigner?
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i run my own company.


Added on September 4, 2008, 3:25 pm
QUOTE(ChasV @ Sep 4 2008, 01:22 PM)
I was reading these posts and though they are old they can apply anytime. I would add:

The next LIE is being a sub-contractor of another designer and being told:
A) We never got paid by the client so we cant pay you.
B) Can you work cheap this time? We're not making any profit on this job.
C) The person you contracted with isnt with our company anymore AND/OR the person you contracted with had no authority to make a deal with you.

These are all lies.
yes. correct.

a) i make it a point, you don't pay me - we still control your stuff. biggrin.gif

b) that one is nonsense la smile.gif you no profit is your business. nothing to do with me.

c) again - none of my business. your company has flaws in management, that's your problem.


This post has been edited by goldfries: Sep 4 2008, 03:25 PM
peppermilk
post Sep 4 2008, 10:42 PM

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Thanks for putting this up, very informative. =3 I guess, to date, too many naive designers have been cheated, sigh.
Papermate123
post Sep 12 2008, 11:32 AM

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QUOTE(infested_ysy @ May 31 2004, 06:02 PM)
Top 10 Lies told to Naive Artists and Designers
- by Mark W. Lewis

1 "Do this one cheap (or free) and we'll make it up on the next one."
No reputable business person would first give away their work and time or merchandise on the hope of making it up later. Can you imagine what a plumber would say if you said "come in, provide and install the sink for free and next time we'll make it up when we need a sink." You would be laughed at! Also the likelyhood is that if something important came along, they wouldn't use you.

2 "We never pay a cent until we see the final product."
This is a croc, unless the person is leaving the door open to cheat you out of your pay. Virtually every profession requres a deposit or incremental payment during anything but the smallest project. Once you have a working relationship, you may work out another arrangement with a client. But a new client should not ask you to go beyond an initial meeting and, perhaps some preliminary sketches without pay on the job!

3 "Do this for us and you'll get great exposure! The jobs will just pour in!"
Baloney. Tell a plumber "Install this sink and my friend will see and you'll get lots of business!" Our plumber friend would say "You mean even if I do a good job I have to give my work away to get noticed? Then it isn't worth the notice." Also the guy would likely brag to everyone he knows about how this would normally cost (X) dollars, but brilliant businessman that he is he got if for free! If anyone calls, they'll expect the same or better deal.

4 On looking at sketches or concepts: "Well, we aren't sure if we want to use you yet, but leave your material here so I can talk to my partner/investor/wife/clergy."You can be sure that 15 minutes after you leave he will be on the phone to other designers, now with concepts in hand, asking for price quotes. When you call back you will be informed that your prices were too high and Joe Blow Design/Illustration will be doing the job. Why shouldn't they be cheaper? You just gave them hours of free consulting work! Until you have a deal, LEAVE NOTHING CREATIVE at the clients office.

5 "Well, the job isn't CANCELLED, just delayed. Keep the account open and we'll continue in a month or two."
Ummm, probably not. If something is hot, then not, it could be dead. It would be a mistake to *not* bill for work performed at this point and then let the chips fall where they may! Call in two months and someone else may be in that job. And guess what? They don't know you at all.....

6 "Contract? We don't need no stinking contact! Aren't we friends?"Yes, we are, until something goes wrong or is misunderstood, then you are the jerk in the suit and I am that idiot designer, then the contract is essential. That is, unless one doesn't care about being paid. Any reputable business uses paperwork to define relationships and you should too.

7 "Send me a bill after the work goes to press."
Why wait for an irrelevant deadline to send an invoice? You stand behind your work, right? You are honest, right? Why would you feel bound to this deadline? Once you deliver the work and it is accepted, BILL IT. This point may just be a delaying tactic so the job goes through the printer prior to any question of your being paid. If the guy waits for the job to be printed, and you do changes as necessary, then he can stiff you and not take a chance that he'll have to pay someone else for changes.

8 "The last guy did it for XXX dollars."
That is irrelevant. If the last guy was so good they wouldn't be talking to you, now would they? And what that guy charged means nothing to you, really. People who charge too little for their time go out of business (or self-destruct financially, or change occupations) and then someone else has to step in. Set a fair price and stick to it.

9 "Our budget is XXX dollars, firm."
Amazing, isn't it? This guy goes out to buy a car, and what, knows exactly what he is going to spend before even looking or researching? Not likely. A certain amount of work costs a certain amount of money. If they have less money (and you *can*) do less work and still take the job. But make sure they understand that you are doing less work if you take less money that you originally estimated. Give fewer comps, simplify, let them go elsewhere for services (like films) etc.

10 "We are having financial problems. Give us the work, we'll make some money and we'll pay you. Simple."
Yeah, except when the money comes, you can expect that you will be pretty low on the list to be paid. If someone reaches the point where they admit that the company is in trouble, then they are probably much worse off than they are admitting to. Even then, are you a bank? Are you qualified to check out their financials? If the company is strapped to the point where credit is a problem through credit agencies, banks etc. what business would you have extending credit to them. You have exactly ZERO pull once they have the work. Noble intentions or not, this is probably a losing bet. But if you are going to roll the dice, AT LEAST you should be getting additional money for waiting. The bank gets interest and so should you. That is probably why the person is approaching you; to get six months worth of free interest instead of paying bank rates for credit and then paying you with that money. Don't give away money.
Now, this list wasn't meant to make anyone crazy or paranoid, but is designed to inject some reality into the fantasy.

You are GOING to be dealing with people who are unlike yourself. Their motivations are their own and their attitudes are probably different than yours. There are going to be demands, problems, issues and all the hassles that go with practically ANY work/job/money situation. Too many times I see the sad example of someone walking in to a situation with noble intentions and then getting royally screwed, because what they see as an opportunity and a labor of love, the other party sees as something else entirely, not at all romantic or idealized, but raw and simple.

How can you deal with this stuff and still do good creative work? Good question. THIS is why an education is important. You learn, out of the line of fire, how to deal with the art at it's own level and also how to deal with the crap that surrounds it. You may have tough teachers and think that it can't be worse, but wait until a business person has a hundred grand riding on your art! Then you will know what "demanding" means. You will then thank all those tough teachers for building up the calluses that enable you to enjoy the job rather than just feeling like it is all a big waste of time!

In the end, working commercially, being a terrific artist is about 25% of the task. If that is the only part of the task that you are interested in, do yourself a favor. Don't turn "pro."
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I didn't know that, thanks

hkfoon
post Sep 17 2008, 06:58 PM

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Well said well said. In fact, we can always do more to support the local design industry by promoting our stand firmly to others.

I've stumbled onto a nice site promoting a better culture for everyone in the service providing industry. Just google nospec, or go to http://www.no-spec.com/.

The no!spec campaign : Serves as a vehicle to unite those who support the notion that spec work devalues the potential of design and ultimately does a disservice to the client.

Check it out guys smile.gif
sphinxraver
post Sep 17 2008, 07:06 PM

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great piece of advice!

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