Hi guys, two years ago i wanted to get the e36 as my first beemer. After consideration i changed my mind to the E46.

Since those are very old models, i have saved up to get a E90 (petrol) LCI, in the range of 30k ++ and and additional 10k for surprises. My research is telling me that for an e90, i should skip the 318i and 320i due to the notorious N43.

Instead i should go for the 323i or 325i, which run the N52.

I cant go beyond those model, those are my target models as a beginner ( this is my limitation)

My question is: am i right in going for the N52, leave alone the power and being straight 6. My curiosity is, am i right in ignoring the N43 ?


My other problem, the E92 has been driving me nuts, in fact that is the reason i am still holding my purchase. Engine wise its going to be same as the 90, the extra dough is for the look it has

Those who have knowledge about the N43 and N52, please shed some light. I have a japanese make for running around. The beemer is not meant as a daily drive. Thanks



For those who wish to advise that i should not consider a beemer, pls stick to the thread. I have had such advises, turns out that one of them attempted to get a beemer but never managed to. The other guy, worked opposite a BMW service centre, and he says that he sees a lot of beemers coming in !

This post has been edited by LORD SK: Jul 20 2022, 07:25 PM

I drive the 320d e90. Love the torque and still running fine. Had one turbo issue but solved with a replacement.

The problem with the car is the engine and gearbox is pretty robust but internal plastics and linkages isnt. Just spent replacing all the bushing on the linkages to poly bush. Ride is harsher but hope it last longer. 215 hp and 450nm of torque is the only reason the car still with me

N52 was BMW global most used engine during the E90 era. It was very popular in the US and Europe. It was more heavily developed, a lot of references around the world. Straight 6 has been their trade for this generation of NA engines.

N43 was for certain market like us to introduce entry level model.

I was once wanted to get an E90 too, and done some research, even asking the local bimmer users. Almost all of the references that I got is to get the N52 over the N43.

There are 2 variant of N52, silver and black top.. you can do some research..

to drive a bmw.... you need to drive like you are stealing it... keeping it at home... it will cause more problems

Thats good to hear. Yeah i have heard about the black and silver top, i wonder which was assigned to asian countries, i shall check on that. Thanks.

Any old car will suffer if left untouched at home. Also no matter what car one drives, one has to blast and push it to its limit once in a while so that the engine does not become manja and suffer performance. I use to do it since my teen era.

Were the reference to N52 made because they are straight 6s or because the N43 were problematic ?

I think you meant N46. N43 is direct injected, and just like N53 wasnt officially brought in to our market due to high sulphur in our fuel back in the late 2000's to 2010

Regarding silver or black top, the valve cover is different where the silver has magnesium valve cover, where the black ones has plastic valve cover.

Silver one has an external PCV valve where the black one has PCV valve built into the valve cover itself, so if the built-in one is busted, you have to change the whole valve cover which costs around 1.6k for original

Black top N52's no longer has the lifter ticking noise, while the silver top still has a chance of it occuring. So both have its own pros and cons.

Anyway, just skip the N4x series. They're known to burn engine oil at crazy rate

Because N52 is made for global market. More development being done.

The 2L is made for those "low income countries" to capture these market, like Malaysia.

The moment my close friend's E90 320i went for engine overhaul, I step away from it .. it also makan engine oil..

No, just skip the petrol engine model and go for diesel. My father owns the e90 320d and until today engine issues is quite minimal compare to petrol engine equivalent. As my mechanic place also got few 320i with different generation engine, petrol also got a lot of problems from valvematic controller, ignition coil, sensor, electric water pump etc...

My mechanic personally feedback if want less issue and can accept the clutter sound of the high pressure fuel pump & injectors the diesel engine is way more reliable and less electrical part to worry about..

Besides that also higher torque fun..

This post has been edited by littlefire: Jul 22 2022, 09:06 AM

If i am not mistaken, N46 was ther earlier versions of the E90, it was replaced by N43. What i am not sure is, which was the exact models which were sold in Malaysia for 320i and 318i. If you know, pls let me know.

Yeah i did come across the sulfur thingy, but didnt read much on it.

Real good info on the black and silver tops. Appreciate the input. Will read about it.

So the N4x series are cumbersome. Thank you for the confirmation on this.

Another confirmation that 2L and below in the E90 series should be avoided. Thanks man.

Thanks for confirming the issues of 2L and below. Yes i read about all those problems with all the parts that you mentioned 😅. Those who bought would be cursing endlessly !

I do have an issue with the diesel engine sound, that is the reason why i am not considering the diesel version.

But what you say is true, the diesel version does seem to be a choice if many.

Btw, would uou know anything about the 323i or 325i ? Are these better then the 320i ? Thanks.

I am guessing N52 parts are more common than diesel one ..

Anyway the reason to choose diesel if you treat it as your daily work horse. But if the intention is to have a fun weekend car, straight 6 will be more fun with it's high revving engine..

Malaysian market E90 lowest spec is 320i, if you see 318i E90 its likely imported unit from either UK or JP.

Personally I'm driving an e60 with black N52. So far so good, its doesnt give much problem. Just remember the maintenance of 6 cylinder engines are more expensive. You need more engine oil, spark plugs and ignition coils than regular 4 cylinders

Also you cannot cheap out on engine oil on these. The vanos system in these are very sensitive to oil quality

Another thing to note is whether the E90 has ZF or GM gearbox. ZF seems to be better

Nop. There are CKD batch of official E90 & F10 diesel units in Malaysia thus got plenty of spare part availability. Besides that if any spare part no stock, nowadays can just wait 1~2 weeks ship from Germany. BMW spare part availability is way more common and faster even compare to Proton nowadays.

This post has been edited by littlefire: Jul 22 2022, 03:18 PM

For sure 323i/325i is more better compare to 320i from engine layout (4 cylinder vs 6 cylinder) to output.
If really want to drive petrol engine from BMW, the 6 cylinder engine is one of the best.

Wow, i didnt know about 318i being only imported. Good info.

Ahh you have the E60 ! 3.0 ? Actually a friend of mine has too, he told me that there was not much hassle from the car. He bougjt it from a used car, i didnt believe him, but he then explained that the bought 3.0, which less problems compared to the lower specs.

Yes i was told not to be stingy when it comes to the service. I estimate around 700-800rm for a normal service with engine oil, filter and plugs, would that be right ?

Yes the Gm and Zf, at this point i am not sure, which model useS which. That is another thing to research.

Really appreciate your input. Thanks.

Ok, i get it. But when it comes to engine issues, are the 323i and 325i as bad as the 320i ?

I am not looking to use it as a daily. Its just for weekends and random rides on week days !

Similar problems across petrol engine as most items are quite similar, some older engine might be using mechanical water pump so cheaper a bit to change, but the rest should be similar. For 6 cylinder engine, the engine mounting might last longer due to less vibration.

few things to look at for

Active steering fault - the sensor board itself kaput or the steering rack
Idrive electrical gremlin - if faulty probably the HU unit needs replacing. Need reprogramming
N52 HPFP - notorious for failing
N52 electronic water pump - Will definitely fail within 5-10 yrs old
Suspension bottoming out - worn shocks/struts
6speed ZF guibo flex disc and driveshaft - If flex disc fail, will get vibration at certain speed
ABS pump failure - this are expensive new. Consider refurbished units

All in all, RM10k only enough to replace broken parts, not include wear and tear item yet. Prepare at least RM25k to be save

This post has been edited by 779364: Jul 25 2022, 04:57 PM

Wow thats sad to hear. if the N52 has same issues then have to think twice 😂

Good advice. Thanks.

I did tske note of all the common parts that needs to be replaced with a certain mileage- water pump. Valve cover, thermostat.

The idrive, steering rack and drive shaft, i did not anticipate. Maybe these are for cars that were not taken care at all. I hope 😨

N52 has no HPFP. N53 has it, but N53's are not officially brought in by BMW, only UK grey imports have a chance to carry N53 from 2007 onwards

Other things that likely to go wrong with the N52 is the VANOS solenoid. Once your engine idles roughly, and throw the cam position stuck error, its time to change. 400+ a piece, and there's 2 of it

My valvetronic motor also went out of position once, but that was probably because I forgot to re-adapt after changing the valve cover

Other than that, my water pump still works and no active steering issues

Output shaft is starting to give some faint clunking though

Thats a relief to know that the high pressure fuel worry is of the N52.
Yes i have read about the solenoids.

Do all of the N52 come with vanos or are there any which come without it ? I mean like for honda, there are non vtec models.

All N52 engine got vanos, if you dont want vanos will need to get back those old rides from 90's which is the E34 early batch M50 (non-TU) engine.

Oh ic. Thank you for the explanation.

Go for it! I've been contemplating for years on the E90, finally bit the bullet on the 320D few months ago since I need it for daily driving. Great car, great fuel consumption, and torque is amazing!

Good to hear. I am looking at the petrol engine though !

I have a F10 with the N52B30 258hp version .

Basically oil leaks at the usual spot - Valve cover gasket , Oil filter housing gasket and oil pan gasket . The upper two are more important to be sorted out immediately because it drips downwards on the serpentine belts and can also drip down to the exhaust side causing weird fumes .

Bad location of DME causing premature wear from heat probably , my MSV90 DME died and it was such a hassle .

Kena ignition coil as well causing misfires , but this is probably wear and tear .

Definitely go for the inline 6 . It's so smooth and creamy and the driving experience is just not the same .

This post has been edited by Zenith5229: Jul 28 2022, 11:36 AM

Wow 258 horses ! Yes i did read that F series did use the N52 as well. Thanks for the confirmation.

The top three: valve cover gasket, oil filter housing gasket, oil pan gasket, ha ha totally checks out with the reviews that i have read.

And yes i came across the issue of the leaks flowing down to the serpentine belts and wrecking up the engine. Oh dear, things an oil leak can do the engine 😅 !!

The ignition coil, is it the same as the solenoid ?

One other info would greatly help:
Yours being a F10, the repairs must have been recent, i am just wondering how much was the damage to your wallet for the replacement of the three leaks issues ? 6k++ ?

Thanks.

1- Just for the three leaks i think its not even close to 6k , the gaskets itself are like 100-300 per pcs , valve cover i think its like 700 - 1k , the rest are workmanship charges which depends on model and depends on workshop . Just figures off the top of my head , it may not be exactly accurate ya .

And for the valve cover gasket theres two ways of fixing it , u can change the whole valve cover , or just the gasket only ( not recommended , i forgot the exact reason , sorry )

2- Yup , oil leakages should be fixed asap , the leak itself is not a big issue but it will indirectly cause collateral damage to other parts if left long enough .

3- No , ignition coil is the the thing connecting to the spark plug . The vanos solenoids are another thing altogether

4- Edit , i just remembered i also kena-ed the crankshaft oil seal leak as well , its literally a round shape ring/seal , part itself costs like Rm 1xx .

This post has been edited by Zenith5229: Jul 28 2022, 01:33 PM

Ok. I get it, its a rough estimate.


Alright, not to cut cost on this. Better to change as a whole. Good advice. Its fine i check out the cons and pros.


Ok leaks can lead to massive issues if ignored. Noted.

Oh, its a diffetent part, i m still a noob.

Thanks for the explanation. Appreciate the info. I assume that had yours done from an external mechanic, i mean it was not done at an official service centre ?

Official service centres are not all that great for certain repairs i guess.

This post has been edited by LORD SK: Jul 28 2022, 01:42 PM

Gathering further info. Can i ask which wear and tear cost you up to 15k. Excluding the tyres 😄, they can be pricey according to taste !

Yeah , i do my repairs with independent workshops , the official service centers are overpriced .

To go back on your topic right , i think your budget and emergency fund for repairs is just nice to get a inline 6 LCI E90 . The e92 commands a much higher price , maybe due to its rarity .

If you go with the E92 i think you can only shoot for the E92 320i , so its becomes a debate of E90 323i/325i LCI vs E92 320i

I used to own an E90 325i LCI and I can attest that the engine is quite reliable. The only issue I faced was random oil leaks from worn gaskets i.e. oil cooler, oil pan, valvetronic and etc. Power is decent but the high revving sound is the best part of engine. The engine does consume some engine oil depending on your driving style and quality of oil used where interval top ups (maximum 1 litre) may be required.

Do also take note the petrol consumption is quite high where I used to average around 12.6L / 100KM for urban driving.

Picture of my car before i sold it. Gosh i miss this car.



This post has been edited by Yapmy: Jul 28 2022, 03:09 PM

It wasnt one single item but few that i changed over the course of 4 yr ownership of a e60 bmw 525i n52. You wont go wrong with this engine. Agree with others dont cheap out on the engine dept. If u want extra oomph, get a 320d but try avoid 2007-2012 model (timing chain issue). Bmw revised the chain design on later diesel model to solve timing chain failure

Active steering sensor recond - this one i think was rm1.5k

Abs pump repair - rm800 for the repair kit

I dont rmb the exact cost but the electronic water pump, thermostat+housing and coolant tank costed me like rm3k++ back in 2013

I also changed compressor refurbished and that was rm1k+ for parts alone. Changed the cabin cooling coil while i am at it servicing to save on labour, add another rm800

All the best with ur future UDM, ultimate driving machine. Head over bmwclubmalaysia forum, they have a spare part cost thread and u can get a feel of how much u would spend changing wear and tear parts

This post has been edited by 779364: Jul 28 2022, 02:35 PM

True. My E90 N46 year 2008. Good condition when i abuse it for few years. Bcos of covid season it just stay under garage. And now many prob but not the major one. Most of the rubber & plastic got memory characteristic too. The car should always move. 250K km millage. Engine & gearbox tiptop condition.

Its normal for bmw consume engine oil if less than 1 liter per interval 10k km. The engine design. With leaking seals it will be an extra. If the leaking always happen then check the catalytic. Clogged catalytic will result more pressure in engine thus easily leak. My catalytic clog and the fc become 8-9km/liter now. Later need to decat.

I see, service centers are not a good choice. Noted.

Haha you are right dude, i can go with an E90 325 Lci with the funds i have. It very very very tempting and to hold tje money 😂😂


True E92 330i is already at the 50k and below mark. 325i is 55 above 😄. As much as i want the E92, i would never go for the 320i, knowing how problematic the engine can be.

The situation now is either i come actoss a well maintained E90 325i Lci, or i am thinking of accumulating a little bit more of cash for the E92 325i. It wont be LCI either and no i~drive !

Ha ha. I am so happy someone understands my dilemma and the debate i am having within my self. 😁😁😁

You had a beauty man. No wonder you miss her. !!

Thanks for tip on the engine oil consumption, will take note of it. Also its nice to personally hear the experience of an ex-owner who still misses the car.

Oh it was an accumulated sum of expense. Ok. Yes i was hoping to get reviews from guys who have experienced the N52 and its good to hear that the engine is reliable.

Really appreciate you giving the breakdown of the costs you incurred, its very helpful. Not to mention the tip about looking up the spareparts price list.
Tnanks for the good wishes man 👍

I really did not know that the engine consumes oil. Thanks for clearly pointing it out. The best tip of yours is the cat being stuck, which can lead to higher fuel consumption. 8-9 km/L is high alright, its like an Rx-8 !!o

For valve cover gasket and the oil filter housing gasket, the parts are quite cheap and can easily DIY provided you have the right torx sockets

But for oil sump gasket, need to bring to workshop as you need to lower the subframe to access the oil sump. Part for this is cheap but labor charge is killer

N52 has double vanos, 1 for intake and another for exhaust. These things are not bullet proof ya, there has been cases of the vanos cam gear having bolt failures. When this happens your engine will run very rough and you get the cam stuck error. Supposedly this has been rectified with black top N52's but you'll never know

For this, both parts and labor are killer

Ok thanks i will note that. Ive not read about this issue. You mean both fails ? Or bolt ? Worth noting this anyway, its a risk alright.
I just checked a review, seems to say that the silver top is better, than the latter black top. That though BMW claims that the black top is a better engine, actually the silver top having the magnesium cover is better. Need to find oit more on this in our Ckd models. Do you know anything about this? Thanks.

Edit: just read your earlier post again. Ok you’ve mentioned that both have cons and pros. Need to read about the lifter in the silver top, which you mentioned. I have no clue what it is 😂

This post has been edited by LORD SK: Jul 29 2022, 12:35 AM

Both can fail, but whether they fail together or not depends on luck The cam gear unit is held together with 4 small bolts. Those 4 bolts can break off and cause problems with advancing and retarding the timing. Also the broken bolt head can potentially fall onto other critical components in the engine

Silver top
+ magnesium valve cover, modular oil separator
- older revision of hardware like lifters, vanos cam gear

Black top
+ new lifters which supposedly solved ticking noise, new cam gear part which supposedly solved the bolt failure
- plastic valve cover, oil separator is non-modular and built into valve cover. You can replace the plastic valve cover with aftermarket aluminium valve cover though

Other issues like oil leaks from front pulley seal, OFH, valve cover, oil sump or flywheel seal can happen to both given the age

Ok, both can fail and you did mean the ‘bolts’ 😄😄
Bolt head falling off. ok that does pose a threat. Thanks for highlighting this.

Appreciate the + and -.
So to the black top claims to have solved it, but its as good as bmw’s claims 😅. Good one Bmw !

Oh, they have an aluminium aftermarket, thats nice to know.
Anyway i came across a video, where the guy fitted the plastic valve cover to a silver top, because his magnesium valve cover was broken. But he says it caused him problems, he ended up getting another magnesium valve cover.
So there may be risks iin getting an aftermarket aluminum cover. I am just guessing.

Just one more thing if i may ask, changing the aluminum cover gives the option of getting a modular Ccv or its just an aluminum cover that prevents cracking ?

Thankyou so much.

The aluminium one has removable cover to replace the broken pcv valve (a cheap rubber membrane). On the original plastic valve cover, the pcv valve is laser sealed. So you have to change the whole valve cover if it breaks (RM1600 item) You can cut your way through the laser seals, but when you try to install back (using glue or whatever) there will likely be leaks and your engine will continue to idle rough

Oh i see, thats the convenience of the aluminum. Thank you for the detailed explanation. Your input has given much information, it will help all future newbies who happen to read this. 👍👍👍

not sure if you have found a car yet, but here are my experiences. Note: always wanted a 6cyl bmw since the days of my folks owning a e36 325i in Msia.
below is a snippet of my N52B30 silvertop ( and n46b20, n46Nb20, m52b22 and M44B19) journey. Note: I have done all the work on the cars myself as labour is outrageously expensive here. Source all my oem/genuine parts from local suppliers here in aus. wont bore you with every detail but just the relevant ones to your search. I am not a BMW mechanic. Just a bloke who enjoys wrenching on cars and chases driving perfection from something affordable. I try to keep the cars OEM or OEM+ as much as I can and this is mostly reflected below.

Had e36 318is with m44 5sp manual. Great engine, but needs to be revved out all the time. Lack of torque down low much more apparent on the track where the SOHC m43 excelled. Sold car after an awesome 3 years owning it.

auctioned a e87 130i with a n52b30 silvertop and 6sp zf auto for cheap for the missus and to double up as my weekender. Fell in love with the characteristics of the engine. needed some maintenance work done as after some poking around the engine bay, I noticed whoever that worked on the engine last had 0 clue on how to work on a bmw. Occasionally has lifter ticking on this car. Only ran with Castrol Edge 5w-30 BMW LL01 approved.
to date I have replaced these on this car
rocker cover gasket, oil filter housing gasket, water pump, CCV, spark plugs, coilpacks, full zf transmission service including new genuine zf solenoids, tube seals, mechatronic bridge and plug seal, oil pan with filter and filled with ravenol 6hp fluid (already did an oil and pan filter change with zf lifeguard 6 before), bilstein b4 shocks,

Bought a e87 6sp manual with a supposedly cooked n46 engine. Top radiator outlet cracked so engine was overheated. Cooling system was cream cheese. changed rad, engine ran fine (?). dailied, tracked the car and sold it for a profit after a year owning it. I have noticed bmw rushed out the n42 which became the n43, n45, n46 and ultimately the n46N. This engine solved the low down lack of torque of the m44 with all the valve trickery.

Finally found a e87 130i with a zf 6sp manual and the silvertop n52b30. Currently my daily/weekender/tracktoy/lepas stress/therapist. Have replaced, clutch kit, bilstein b14 pss coilovers, e92 335i brakes, and the usual engine bits mentioned above.

Over the years, I have obviously done repairs to fair few bmw's (when your uncle and mates get to know you are a bmw enthusiast and a occasional track kaki....)

N42/n46's: 90% of n42/n46 equipped cars I have come across has either needed new timing chain guides or had timing chain guides replaced. Btch of a job. Not difficult just needs alot of patience and specialty tools. Valve stem seals are another problem point of this engine ontop of the other seals, vanos and valvetronic issues. But the shortcomings of this engine is made up when it is running fine and put up to its paces on a handling perspective. Coupled with Msport dampers and springs, this thing is slightly more balanced on a twisty track or small track as you can trail brake and use more momentum to steer it out of a turn. On the road the its got a very useable powerband but its not a powerhouse.

n52 silvertop: I'm sold on this engine family. sure it has it fair share of seals shenanigans but these are all light repairs when compared to n54's and n55's (bmw turbo 6 fans will stone me to death saying this lol). N52 port injected, n54/n55 direct injected so carbon buildup is another thing to consider ontop of turbo, fuel pump, injector and vacuum hoses issues. N55's also has crank issues like the S engines with the rod bearings. The instantaneous torque down low with the n52 is much more useable than to let boost buildup on a n54 and n55 and then get that hit. I have worked and driven (nearly bought too) a piggyback tuned manual f20 m135i with a n55. on stock base map comparing the 130i to the m135i, the 130i takes off more lively with less effort.

other points to note on e8x and e9x chassis.
sunroof: (if equipped) just needs the water channels blasted with air to clear gunk and crap very often to prevent water leaking
power window mechanism fails: Rebuild kits or the whole mechanism can be bought for cheap. not hard to replace. Make sure the vapour seals/door linings are intact as that is another point of water ingress.
FRM (footwell module): known to fail if car has not been jumpstarted properly or when changing batteries. Ensure replacement is the exact part number otherwise you will find functions not working or missing after replacement
diff bushes: more so on n52 equipped cars that cop a fair bit of hiding. Will tear causing a harsh downshift on both manual and auto.
dash and interior fitment creaks: YMMV. Sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe sh*t.
interior plastics: rubbery coatings should have already melted off by now,
infotainment: not sure if official Malaysian CBU or CKD cars could be option with the HiFi sound system or the harman kardon. Very nice stock system. Has built in amp and a stronger underseat sub with a component setup on the front doors. Avoid units with the CCC/CIC aka idrive unless you know a good electronics installer that can do retrofits.

Obviously Sreten from M539restorations is my hero followed by VehicularDIY and Shoplifetv

how every one of these cars that ive owned drove: absolutely beautiful. Even with worn shocks I had a more fulfilling drive around twisty roads as compared to my other hot hatch at home (a45). RWD over AWD/FWD I suppose. I am not bagging out FWD as I have driven a very well sorted third gen prelude with a h22a on the track and that car still gives me a very fuzzy feeling thinking about it. But the owner of the prelude has dumped a fair bit of $ to get it to how it drives now. But if I had known what I knew back in 2016 I would not have even bothered with the a45.

edit: oh yes forgot to mention, n52 silvertop has slightly more power than n52 blacktop. also n52 blacktop cars may have electric power steer vs hydraulic. this may or may not be applicable for official malaysian delivered models.

This post has been edited by mototo: Aug 8 2022, 09:28 AM

My father own 2010 model of LCI 320d, the issue already solved since the LCI model. Until today i never heard of timing chain snap from my mechanic side, during my major fix of oil leak last 2 years back when my mechanic bring down the engine & gearbox to fix those seals, he also help inspect the timing chain condition at 150k @ 10 years it is still in good condition. The most he tell me just to change the timing chain guides & pre-tensioner and good to go for another 5 to 10 years and recommend me to come back to check at around 250k.

He only advice me that for all timing chain vehicles using good quality fully synthetic oil is a must and also dont drag too long for oil change. If you look at Europe why a lot of chain issue, just look at their oil change intervals almost double of what we do locally. In Europe they only change the engine oil at 10,000miles or 16000km...

This post has been edited by littlefire: Aug 8 2022, 09:46 AM

Hi, are you an Aussie who is posting from below under or you are living in Malaysia ? Either way its good to hear your experiences.

No i have yet to, i am looking for an E92 323i or 325i possibly a CKD. A sliver top ! I know its not easy to come by!

Oh, the Silvertops have a slight more power is it. Totally dis not know about the electric and hydraulic variations, thanks.

This post has been edited by LORD SK: Aug 11 2022, 04:18 PM

Not sure why, but silvertop got the worse engine recommendation from my mechanic. This generation engine want to go for lightweight/fuel saving route but when doing overhauling most of the screw, bolts & nuts need to be replaced and drill out as it is aluminum base. Yes, aluminum bolts! Just imagine how many pcs in the engine and broke into half when try to dissemble? Most mechanic after took out, propose to replace with either steel or stainless steel type bolts. Just imagine those broken bolts sent to machining house to pick out one by one..

There's reason why they use aluminium bolts in the first place. Magnesium/Aluminium dont play well with steel. You'll get corrosion

I read that Bmw it self makes it known that it was a single use. Maybe the local mechanics did not know.

Didnt the blacktop too use aluminum bolts ? The VC was plastic.


You are right about the bolts getting twisted off, it is a pain. Maybe some apprentice did know that it was aluminum and attempted with full force thinking that it was a normal steel bolt.

Any other specific reason why your mechanic says that black tops have more issues ?

Edit: ok, i checked, the blacktop does not use aluminum bolts, so yeah they dont have the breaking off issue.

This post has been edited by LORD SK: Aug 11 2022, 09:52 PM

You are absolutely right. Its due to the possible corrosion.

Actually proper workshop rarely have this sort of issue with broken bolts. It rarely breaks if you torque it to spec.

Most "bmw specialist" simply bolt it down without using torque wrench. Even if they have it, they rarely follow because different bolts have different torque spec

Ic, i can understand the part where our local mechanics just bolt it down with their instinct like they would with any other bolt.

I learnt something here from your post : i did not know that the bolts had different torque spec. Appreciate the post.

Noob really leaning a lot 😁

You got stainless steel bolts if your concern about corrosion, i work in steel industry before and a lot of our end customer products also use a lot of these material mix together during assembly and there is no concern. If concern about material expansion & holding strength, usually it can be solve using helicoil, treads inserts & loctite solutions put in between 2 different material. We did a lot of test during assembly time with vibration, pressure & heat test and even used in automotive, locomotive & aerospace products also no issues.

Magnesium material is always the biggest problem, altho it is the most light weight but also the most easiest to oxidized, if you live near to seaside or high moisture area the magnesium material will easily create those powdery stuff and surface might got pitting holes due to it. Thus a lot of manufacturer in the end either revert back to Aluminum or use alternate material like plastic to replace especially engine cover (FYI Old Merc engine top cover M103/M104 usually are made from Magnesium also in the past and got a lot of case hole or crack after certain period)

This post has been edited by littlefire: Aug 12 2022, 08:04 AM

Well this is different case for the silvertop engine, even if it is factory torque spec with original bolts it will mostly break when disassembly even for the first time. My mechanic did a lot of BMW engine before, when he see silvertop engine want to do overhauling he usually will tell the owner to prepare more money due to higher chance of bolt broke, some owner did not believe & purposely stay behind just to see during disassembly to understand. Just imagine sending to machining shop to do 1 by 1 , after that need to do retreads or put in helicoil 1 by 1, all these are extra cost money. Thus this engine generation is the most hated engine to do overhauling from my mechanic feedback.

May google/youtube about broken bolts N52 engine, plenty of information.

This post has been edited by littlefire: Aug 12 2022, 07:57 AM

Hi,
Malaysian living in Aus. Almost 20 years here. haha. Comp Sys engineer working for a international German electronics company so I do have an understanding or 2 about design considerations

Different strokes for different folks, I personally have not had any bolts snapped on working on any of my silvertops ( or for that matter any bmw engines so far)
I do have torque wrenches and replace every alu blue marked bolt that I feel is related to a structural part of the engine. Eg, bellhousing bolts are one time torque to spec bolts only. There's reasons behind this.
In the event of an accident, do you want the engine and gearbox flying into the cabin space or do you want the bellhousing bolts to snap and the whole setup falls to the ground protecting the cabin as safety design it was intended to do.
another example, on the thermostat and water pump bolts, when the car gets into a small fender bender where the front subframe cops the hit and forces its way into the engine, do you want the bolt thread on the engine to break from the impact of the subframe hitting the water pump or would you rather snap the bolt and use a bolt extractor to remove the piece and save the engine block?
I have just rebuilt a e87 130i for a mate where the car copped a hit from the lower right section right above the front mounting point for the front subframe to the chassis leg. The aluminum forged subframe took the brunt of the force and tapped the thermostat which snapped off its bolts. Everything else saved. Chassis leg still straight measured using a laser alignment tool using my own car as a reference point. Lucky for me the bolt snapped in the housing of the thermostat and I just needed a set of vice grip long nose to undo the remaining part and fitted a new thermostat and new bolts.
Car was a bargain, an economic write off at the salvage auctions with an untainted VIN/Chassis number as it was more than 15 years old from date of manufacture (its a funny system we have here). We just took the to a trackday where the car performed flawlessly with ventus rs-4's mounted on style 161 e90 staggered 17 inch rims

Alot of snapped bolts videos are mostly from countries with snow as well so do take that into consideration watching these videos.
The climate here is not the same as Malaysia. As for other mechanics's experiences etc, I do not disagree with their findings as thats their own experiences. I am just here to share mine and people in this industry that i come in contact with.
It is not just bmw with regards to this, you will be kidding yourself if you think other manufacturers do not use alu bolts and alu components in the engines. Engine mounts are one of them. With today's safety ratings, car designs evolve more around these aspects before form comes into play.
Do remember, these cars are still built with initial european market comsumption as their general basis. From the e36 the bean counters have began to put their input in building cars hence you have the brittle plastics in e36 interiors, subframe issues in e46 chassis, plastic engine components in 4cyl engines from 2002 and now subscription based options
Bean counters and marketing would want to see you buy a new car every 3 years or pay a shitload to get the car maintained therefore engineers are also required to add in failure in the designs. Look up MTTF and MTBF.
Warranty here used to be 3 years or 100000kms. Studying the market here, most aussies that can afford a new bmw would either have it on a lease or a company expense (rarely anyone would pay cash outright or take a loan on it unless its a very special limited ///M car that they want to keep for a significant period of time, and everyone will try to use the tax scheme to their benefit, i mean if akong can subsidise for the car why should i pay for it out of pocket right )
Now the servicing schedule here is every 25000kms or when the wretched service light comes on. Have a mate here (who is also a migrated malaysian) bought a brand new end of 2018 X3 M40i. The car had its first oil change in 2021 as he works from home and then covid came so it never reached 25000kms or the service light to come up. He had to bring it to a euro specialist to get it done because bmw would not do it as they told him no service light so its not due yet. You can pay us but we will not be doing this as a logbook service.
This car has the heralded B58 which is found in every baby ///M or ///M-lite cars these days inc the BMW supra (lets face it, who are we kidding here lol)
It has its timing chain setup BEHIND the engine next to the firewall. BMW timing chain guides never needed replacing... said no one ever
What is the cause for these components to break down by the time they hit 100000kms or 3 years ?
LACK OF OIL CHANGES IS ONE OF THEM.
The team here figured, most normal bmw owners will only change the oil when the computer tells the to do so, and most will miss it by a few hundred ( some thousands) kms too. So potentially it could be running on 30000kms oil before a change is done. On a highly strung engine too....
I understand oil technology has vastly improved over the years, but one cant help but think, oil is still oil, once it degrades, it starts to loose its properties.
I have watched this on my oil temp gauge on my a45, at 10000kms in the oil heats up more, fresh oil it hovers around 98-99deg C. at 10000kms its at 106deg c on average.

So, to put things into perspective, most 100000kms and or 3 year old bmw would be lucky to have 3 services in this duration. Owners with leases will drive it into bmw and drive out with another new bmw renewing the lease again or companies will change them out for tax purposes. BMW will pick the best ones for their pre owned range, rest will be on sold to wholesalers. Dodgy used car dealers will add in the services into idrive to paint a rosy picture. NSW Police highway patrol (equivalent to the PDRM pasukan helang) uses g30 530D as their cars and they get churned over every 3 years on average, obviously for tax purposes and also from a maintenance standpoint.

Both my silvertops paint a very different picture based on owners. Both same year of manufacture ( just months apart). One auto one manual. Both at 16xk kms now.
The manual car has had a very spirited life, the auto car from what i can gather has been owned by a older couple who obviously did not thrash it much. As such the manual car has been looked after more diligently as its previous owners would have some form of mechanical knowledge or enthusiasm. The auto car was looked after as per the books ( and then also taking costs into factor after its warranty ended)
Manual silvertop: no sludge, no varnishing on components, timing chain plastics is light brown, no lifter tick, 0 hiccups. Overall the engine is alot cleaner as the previous owners replaced sump gaskets, oil seals etc.
Auto silvertop: slight sludge, some varnishing on components furthest away from oil pump, timing chain darker brown but not as bad as some i have worked on. has occasional lifter tick and randomly the vanos solenoids will chuck a spaz and give me a CEL. clear it and its good for an indefinite period of time.



I tell most people buying bmw's whether used or new
Buy new flip on its 3rd or 5th birthday (whatever warranty period applies for each country)
Buy used and have at least $5k AUD rainy day funds
Do not buy a used bmw if you are unable to wrench on it yourself or have a very good BMW mechanic.


I think I have gone off on quite a tangent. Apologies.

Back to topic is either silvertop or blacktop is fine if you ask me. Just get a trustworthy bmw specialist to look over it before purchase. A good bloke should be able to tell you what has been touched, what has not and how the work has been done (either poorly done with no real understanding of design or things have been replaced to correct specifications)
Funnily enough the silvertop is more sought after here than the blacktop in the 130i community


edit: if you watch the alpina b7 engine rebuild video by sreten from m539 restorations, you will see that he HAD issues with mixing different kinds of metals in his engine block. It essentially blew up whilst he was running the engine in as per the builder's specifications. He also then went to seek opinion from an engine metallurgy person and figured out the cause of the failure.

This post has been edited by mototo: Aug 12 2022, 10:14 AM

That's because they were over-torqued right from the factory

There was some revision of the torque spec somewhere down the road, maybe in 2009 or 2010?

But as usual, no recall from BMW for defect Same for vanos cam which have high risk for broken bolts