So ah... unker CNY rage spend got mai enjine piggybacked and unker hid the module somewhere under the dashboard but unker sked tertekan the white mode button while squeezing it around. Unker dgn soalan bodoh lagi:

1. So pertanyaan khas utk mrk yg ada pakai KKT ni, usually got 2 maps according to the workshop, but unker only got 1 cause tamau backfire preng prong preng prong, what unker have seen from checking online vids is the default mode appears to be steady state flashing oren, and backfire is double flash?

So what are the behavior if accidentally tertekan white button if only got 1 map inside? Will it ignore? As unker know the wiring guy copied the stock/default specs into both maps before the tuner, hence they should both have started at 0 interception kot... so if unker tertekan also is prob just risking swapping to stock setting kot? Baru hari ni terkena, workshop tak buka weekend lel.

2. Anyway, the dyno pic is stuck in unker other phone, when got time to upload it baru share la... but unker ada risau ckit they increase AFR at the upper range goes up 15+ at 4500rpm, before falling back to 12.5 again near redline. Sked leh if engine pong klu stay too long at that 4500? Selamat ke mcm ni? Generally the only time unker ever rev beyond 3500 rpm is to smoke other tin milos at traffic light GT. The nett gain was a good 3-4HP across the entire powerband on a heartbreaker Dyno Dynamics, so unker heppi la.

3. Does wheel dyno / light wheels skew the dyno graph? Unker see the low end HP/torque is way higher and flat compared to the known torque curve of the engine. After tune curve is raised nearly entirely, it follow the engine character - peak torque was recorded from 2-4k rpm sumwhere, but unker know this is impossible for unker engine since its well a NA. What made it even weirder was constant falloff despite engine stock design peaking at 4500 rpm (136Nm --loss on wheels ++light wheels) - it falls smoothly from 4000 to redline. Theres a big torque jump stock and tuned at 1900 rpm (dyno recorded this as peak due to the high hp against very low rpm), tuner said likely is light wheel effect, but he said it should be accurate representation of the on-the-road as well. Prob free mini turbo for N/A with light wheels? LEL

UPDATE: got the HP/AFR one up. The torque curvfe pic haram jadah thx to lousy camera, kena blur habis niama. I had to rebuilkd it by reversing the HP reading, but its pretty similar la. 4th gear pull.



The ori (true stock) engine curve added adjusted for drivetrain loss 15% in yellow. The predicted falloff is far greater on the dyno than on the engine which unekr kinda felt using the lightweight wheels at speed. but the falloff is mcm so kesian unker formula salah ke lol..

This post has been edited by Dezs: Feb 16 2022, 08:56 AM

no ideas kkt.
u pakai which gear during measure

Pretty sure it was 4th.. the redline was sumwhere 160+

Post pic of your dyno graph. Also what engine and mods. Using 4th gear?

actually ur concern is white button only rite. find the instruction PDF online to get answered

Tin milo 1.5 shd be 3sz-ve? Exhaust and intake drop in apart from minyak premium. Small things like iridiums and new mounts shouldnt affect much. 4th gear since it hit red around 160 there. Pics updated in opening post

The funny thing is.. verywher got bideo preng pong preng pong... fukkin NO user manual. Nvm asked the woksop dy. They claim is safe if not extended revving all day, if temp naik let engine rest (but if clyinder head expldoed before temp naik how?). Well isn't that applicable for every haram jadah tune as well? lol.. Unker dun mind losing top end power for far safer temps since 14.7 ppl say is dangerous at high rev? entah la..

This post has been edited by Dezs: Feb 16 2022, 08:52 AM

goods updates bros

He wot your car at 15-16 afr.. if me, i would get a retune and drive conservatively for now..

Generally, 15-16 afr ok for cruising. There are reasons and theories for this, you can research yourself.

Wot should try maintain around 13-14 for na cars. My tuners tuned my previous nissan sr20ve 20v (compression ration at 11:1) around 13.2 - 13.5 during wot. Gained 10% across the range, peaking at 225hp. Factory spec is 204hp.

This is the thing ah.. even tatau tune also would generally know 12.5 is the safe WOT for NA's, the thing now is that at that kind of revs a the heat would build up far more rapidly than coolant can pick off i assume and ff things up? I am also a bit concerned on the higher loads throughout the range, but am scheduling to refresh the engine within a year or 2.

Really no point to change much at 5000 rpm for just a bit more HP that would hardly ever be used. Unker also pretty sure the dude wasn't really fine tuning the cells much cause he finished it in like 40 mins, entah ignition timing just spam random ++ pun entah tatau. Now trying to hunt for bootleg KKT writer to see what he actually set in there. Unker ask about engine knock also they did not give a proper answer - but pretty sure it was equivalent to sendiri settle kek, cause even if ECU retard timing on knock, it will still advance by the piggyback rate ba.. but technically still a nett retardation?

Estimating original engine the nett gain mods and tune is somewhere 10% as expected of a N/A I guess, exhaust has been shunted a bit to silence the beng so there was prob some loss somewhere in between. I wanna see the diff against stock wheels, but too damn lazy to load them up and pay just to roll em zzz.

Which shop u went for the tune? Got their fb? Dangerous tuning... Or he knows his afr sensors not valibrated and offset by 2-3..

Workshop in Muar - RS dyno & tune (not same as the KL one - he tarak stock when contacted earlier) - coz they open during the break and got promo, a friend suggested, reviews were ok and welp excuse to roadtrip,. The dudes seemed well versed la wiring was neat and feller quite meticulous on sensor checks before moving ahead, unker pretend bodo ask stupid question din get bs la.

There was some complaints from the tuner on the sensor readings since its butt plug was off a few times. Lepas habis he ran a few more rounds on dyno, then unker bawa pusing, balik dia sudah mia. Owner say they always kasi conservative one, but bukan dia tune ma, the macais meanwhile were busy on the workshop so once they setup they were off to the other side, so no opportunity to ask much on the tune. But from what unker see the stock one seems right being 12.5? Unless they actually go lower? 11 and 10 mcm is turbo range already kan.. But the low RPM readings are way too learn at 16+ if asking for power no??

Unker also also curious on the transient load states since those are not captured on the pull. Compact32 lists features for that la, they recommend vs tiny for smoother map. Tengok2 the wiring mcm only got fuel rail, 4 cylinders, and throttle nia. My OBD reader can't pull AFR from the ecu, but prob ill be trying to pick it from fuel flow reading and work backwards kot.

Mebbe better get opinion from another dyno here since its a long ride down - want to see what it turns up on a dynojet also. Unker pretty sure it wasn't that fine tuned esp for the ignition advance, but well he say NA is straight forward quite fast so diam dulu je la.

This post has been edited by Dezs: Feb 16 2022, 05:12 PM

no afr kah. macam got different name. let i research a bits masa pulanged

Turbo AFR is also around 12. Unless its big turbo or super high flow high boost then you go lower for safety. Wideband aren't accurate as well. the faster the flow the least accurate they become similar to narrow bands. that is why most tuner anticipate a delay. usually when they advance the timing, its more towards the higher rev. while on lower revs, there's a slight degree of retard to give a stronger pickup pull. as for whether there's knock, your ecu should be able to know, then retard or advance the timing accordingly. the subject of knocking is very dependent on temp, fuel you use and duty cycle of fuel its injecting.

my recommendation is get another dyno shop to do a pull data while logging the afr as well as the knock. then you will know if the tuning is ok or not.

after upload nanti view
o2 sensor value

Maibi tarak, unker baru confirm is narrowband O2 sensor, so even the ecu tatau KEK. That means its running pretty much on buku sifir as long as its not in closed loop. Actually explains a lot cause unker always wonder there's a certain threshold when the engine starts to behave differently when accelerating esp on a slow/smooth pedal push alongside a higher efficiency acceleration vs tetiba start makan more minyak on pijak.

Hmm... so in this case at redline 12.5 should be normal as expected and going slightly higher is prob not detrimental? My concern is the increase to 15-16 at 5000rpm which doesn't make much logic. However, another birdie kinda confirmed this saying the stock maibi of these era had too lean low rpm and too rich high rpm mebbe for reliability concerns. It does match the pattern/maps of other maibi retunes, the big question is how much is too much? Unker plan to visit anoither shop mmg to have them verify if the timings were precisely tuned or just spammed across the cells. Unker saw the AFR adjustment had quite a lot of runs, but after that then they should run to timing, but hardly spent much time there.

This post has been edited by Dezs: Feb 16 2022, 09:10 PM

o2 tu narrowband ke wideband? Anyway should also display log openloop and closeloop status. From the first look i can say your kereta jimat minyak hahaha

if you're not boosting or running high comp lean or melt piston is not too much of a concern. you can check via the spark plug condition. that's the best indication. NA will always run lean because they don't knock as much as turbo and superchargers.

Yee narrowband as suspected, no point to run wideband on tin milo la.. It is a jimat minyak car for sure since the lightweight wheels went in - but it seems to have distorted the output on the wheels la, so unker think switching to stock might show a very different curve. The low TQ is way too high for the NA setup.

no lah. quite normal. if you retard the timing correctly the pick up torque is quick esp for maibi. meaning you fire the piston when its accelerating downwards at low rev, pushing along side with the momentum of the piston. most stock engine don't provide such performance due to lowering down on fuel, emission regulation as well as linearity in driving dynamics. older people have trouble controlling pedal so they need to smooth out the engine output.

Ye ke, but the pattern is so much different from the stock engine - i mean the tune pushed everything up but follow pattern ma, so something is skewing the low end TQ to the point that its losing torque even when the engine is still building up at the flywheel based on its stock behavior (losses at speed? towards redline the wheels were going like 120-160kph). Either that or actual engine output translate differently at the wheels since they are sort of "spooling" torque from the engine instead of being measured on the stick directly (i.e. factory engine)?

This post has been edited by Dezs: Feb 16 2022, 09:25 PM

check on where the WOT happens. torque spike can be generated by revving the engine with the clutch lifted then dropped immediately where the dyno registers the torque spike. 2 patterns the same as stock just higher, that's normal. if you put more fuel more power. this is for WOT case. torque tends to peak around 3-4k rpm then dwindles down rapidly while hp increases. However for small engines with long stroke, the torque may come earlier. longer stroke engines tend to have higher torque lower hp. while shorter strokes high hp but low torque.

ps. don't worry too much. NA je. else you get the dyno shop to help you hear for knocks hehe.

wow a new idea. i never learn this way retard function

Hahhaha i was like emmmmm.... well i can get ECU reading on timing retard advance, so its a good measure to tell what the ecu is instructing to the engine - recently just found out 2000 rpm on 4th spends less fuel than 1600+ rpm in 5th. Was like fuu..... Pretty sure the KKT further adds timing kot just sked if its tipu fuel line is affecting the fuel flow sensor.

My guess is new maibi got wideband sensor after seeing ur bideo. I checked the reading and mine simply jumps around the 0 and 1v a lot, wires on the sensor also tak cukup. I also cannot get engine load reading, so either its blocked ke or is there some reason it might not actually be using that calculation?

This post has been edited by Dezs: Feb 17 2022, 12:23 PM

mine install elm327 mini the cheapest one below 25 bux.
value from obd is call OXYGEN SENSOR 1 WIDE RANGE EQUIVALENT RATIO (have two selection jadi i include both)

app use https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?....ovz.carscanner
or this fancy https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mda.carbit

the list out :
oxygen2 voltage (V)
oxygen2 short term fuel trim
oxygen1 wide range ratio
oxygen1 wide range volt (V)
oxygen1 wide range mili-ampere (mA)
oxygen1 wide range ratio
===============================
calculated enjin load
absolute load value
timing advance

Ya same reader la haha... unker make check with the developer ady he say mmg tarak for old model. I guess the new one got more stuff. Setting up for my model also was like haram jadah siap needed to buy the paid version lagi.

sad2. 3szve is a feel good enjin.
good luck to find d AFR later on

== double dupe ==

This post has been edited by ktek: Feb 17 2022, 02:34 PM

Welp brought he fella out for some tests today - on anything less than WOT there is nothing happening much BUT.. at WOT, unker did sense something a bit diff on the engine esp at the target AFR that was predicted high - 5000-5500 or 6000 rpm.

The problem is unker tin milo hamster wheel is already going crazy at those speeds by default, but this time in addition to the usual hamster and slightly more vibration (assuming from more tune more powa, cause this is felt across the range, but at mid 3-4k rpm, this change actually feels good, engine is smoother despite the extra powa):
- there is a little bit of something that sounds a bit sparkly (best way to describe the sound, a little faint, but certain its theere, cause i recreated it twice), engine power seems to continue fine, but
- some of that is certainly going to the drivetrain too, so it must be happening in the combustion/pistons.
- Can't really break down the change in the pedal feel, but it certainly changes the vibration note, it accompanies the "sound" when it occurs.

Importante question: Is my combustion chamber too hot and going kamikaze soon or this is something else? Or is it indicator of oncoming knock? Cause if knock occurs, power loss/raging hamster engine follows too right?

Moving up to 6k rpm the effect tapers off a little and then engine redline, after the gear up, the engine seems to continue normally. This was not present in unkers first WOT test in the morning after the tune. The only change/possible factors I can think off:
- Morning air much cooler - 30+ intake vs 45+ intake temps afternoon
- Morning test was not truly WOT, had some mat in the way limiting it at 96-98% throttle. Afternoon one was 100%

Unker wonder how the tuner would set the cells for variable/transient engine loads/throttle that are not WOT? Is it a smoothed out adjustment between WOT timing and AFR pulled on dyno?

This post has been edited by Dezs: Feb 19 2022, 06:22 PM

got metal expanding noise?

Doesnt sound like metal to metal or maybe just "before" metal to metal? It appears just as the engine crosses 5000-6000rpm..

Just a quick update... doesn't occur in 1st (maybe 1st just doesnt experience as much load), but 2nd yes this afternoon.

Tried to check just now at night too... nothing in 1st or 2nd did 3 runs all normal. Only diff is ambient temp kot.

Overheating would carry on over the cycles kan.. i.e. there would be sound/friction even after gear change or RPM drop.

This post has been edited by Dezs: Feb 19 2022, 10:23 PM

careful hamster wheeling falling off later.
Anyway, any "extra" sound to me is a bad thing. The smoother the engine the less sound it should be there. Unless its VTECK POWAHHH (just kidding lol).

Btw this info I got from my tuners la, not sure is correct or not.
There will be a certain percentage signal lost or rather, signals that are too late to be modified by the piggyback. He thinks its around 30% for emanage blue and kkt piggyback.
Then maxxecu mini is just slightly better than the piggyback. Engine not as smooth to get as the more expensive standalone rather. Also, being a standalone, it of course won't have same problem as piggyback ecu.
Anyway he is comparing the maxxecu mini with haltech standalone ecu.

So, I would still like to see a safe AFR since have all these uncertainties.

the biggest problem with piggyback is, native ECU will still do adaptation. even when you've tuned nice nice over time some ecu will attempt to do their own correction. risk of lari map after 1 week.

Like dafuq? suka2 drop packet meh? Ingatkan the piggyback intercepts the wires going between ignition, fuel must go through it right? So if the processor sudah overload then it just kasi bypass? I did check the wiring la, without the bypass plug to connect the wires, ignition tak sampai engine, and prob fuel feed too and ecu went rage.

So what happens then? Engine get one set instruction from boss wife normally then tiba2 boss masuk and the work fakkap? Welp, kena tunggu masa pigi tarik round 2 bah - so far engine sound overall did not increase apart from that sparkly signature la. Going to compare against stock ecu map using the bypass later this week.

Hmm prob depends on how the thing is wired up? The more unker find out about my engine, the more simplistic its mechanism seems to be, prob cause is tin milo - atm i am logging reads on the timing advance (heck i actually cant tell if its VVT timing adv or ignition kek, cause no other timing reads coming out of obd) seems to be responding as per usual, fuel/AFR wise it does seem to still correspond to the map captured on the dyno.

I am spending more fuel accelerating now at low revs (but nett rev time prob less with same coasting), the mid revs actually compensates since it supposedly produces more hamsters for similar AFR. Closed loop is still active based on the readings too, so I'm not sure how piggyback manipulates that mode, or it just gives the same amount of fuel/advance based on the command issued vs throttle? Unker am curious too the ECU so easy to cheat it dunno its being taken for a ride meh? won't the engine sensors/fuel tell a diff story then cause him to rage? Or maybe my "improved" consumption is actually due to the ECU dunno the fuel rail actually give more fuel than told? Machiam what they say those haram jadah OBD chips do lel.

This post has been edited by Dezs: Feb 20 2022, 09:08 AM

Its not packet loss, rather its unmodified packet. For example at 4000rpm piggyback should modified the data to increase to 5% more fuel than ori. Out of 100 packets, 70% is increase 5% fuel but piggyback overload so 30% is original no increase fuel.

Also its true about original ecu "relearning". Rather original ecu long term fuel trim adjustments are made. Thats why it is recommended you drive according to your style for some time first until the long term fuel trim are stable in your original ecu before you go tune your piggyback. Once stable, the ecu wont adjust the long term fuel trim, it only plays around with the short term fuel trim. If everythg is your car perfect, it will maintain the new tuning longer. This is what i understand la. Because for my tuning on emanage blue, my car came out fine. Powah and most importantly no backfire. After few months got a bit backfire pop pop at my exhaust. Now i believe if i find out what is worn and replace it with another part that is same condition as during my tune, it should be better. Or its just that my tune sucky.
Anyway due to all this, i concluded if wan play, go standalone better.

older gen cars easy to fool, newer ones need algorithm or most cheap piggybacks out there can't do much. We've even did a o2 simulator just to trick the AFR to the ECU. wire the piggyback to send fake signal (what the tuner shop told me) failed also, a decade ago. The biggest problem with modern engine is the crank sensor and knock sensor. the ecu is smart enough the sense and play around. Which is why alot of people are moving to Remap or Standalone. Less hassle pure tuning configuration.

Piggyback cannot manipulate the o2 sensor too much. will send the ecu to 02 sensor error limp mode. or choke your engine. On standard over time your AFR will run rich at lower rev based on my experience. If you're serious about performance don't waste too much time on piggyback. straight go install standalone or find a tuner whom can custom tune your engine via remap.

Stock generally runs at 12.5 on open loop.
13.0+/- is where full power can be made. Albeit each engine is different.
Lower RPM or no load, higher than 14 is safe.

Even badly strapped down, can skewer the reading.
Even on tin milo, you don't strap it down correctly, you can get bad reading.

If combustion chamber is too hot, you should feel pre-ignition.

True and false(?)
Some tuner, should know how to clamp the signal to stop it from adaptation.
Not all piggyback works nicely with stock ECU.
So, hardware and tuner need to be right.

- Seems what most sources say, just that yeah this guy seemed to bring it all the way to 15+ like dafuq. I hardly WOT now la cause its also harsh on the 1st gear, so will wait until i reach the next dyno pull.
- I guess 2 readings on the same strap should still apply for that instance i guess? kek
- What should pre-ignition feel like? Roughness? loss of power? Maybe the first ever so much slightly, but loss of power was not prevalent. It should get worse as rpms/cycles increase i assume?

I guess I should start charting the fuel trim readings instead but they have been -ve for a long time even before the tune. I'm guessing its my cheapass driving style, but it should determine if the ECU is actively trying to counter the low RPM enrichment by the piggyback. Then again, I still don't positively know how to tell exactly when the ECU decides to go open loop which should leave the piggy back in proper control no (does it still use trim here)? The other thing would be those half/transient load situations how the piggyback handles it.

As for the features I guess now i know why the tuner was insistent on using the compact32 instead of tiny apart from the larger map table and supposedly faster processor, but it seems he did talk about clamping when i ask about sensors going wild, and even KKT tiny has it (tho would'nt this be for boosted engines kot?) I assume it clamps both ways? i.e. very lean vs very rich interceptions?

Time to figure out exactly how smart is my hamsterwheel - Prob need to log a run with timing advance readings on WOT. So far it responds accurately, retard on engine braking, advance on acc as expected, wanna see if it would retard on WOT to see if knock protection still exist. I'd assume OBD readings come direct from ECU polling and not packet sniffing sensors off the bus right? If so I can safely assume the obd reader is as per what the ecu knows, honestly very few readings either simple thing or just ham kah chan app development.. kek.

This post has been edited by Dezs: Feb 21 2022, 10:28 AM

ayam pasang KKT only for playing piak piak piak , but i believe we need to maintain tekan driving style since original ECU adapt with our driving pattern , most tuner are just tune using CAN copy and paste ,best is change to standalone .

VVT-I open at 4k rpm , is that real ?

kek2. bro no need to wait dyno. u drive i record obd screen.
purposely light pedal & max pedal a few kilang street on the weekend will know answer ady.

u which enjin 1NR or 2NR.
mine 2NR heard a different intake noise after 4200. only happen if max pedal from low gear & low rpm.
if pijak from higher rpm he will become random point

Spend so much just for the sound? Lucky I can tune my own cars.

Lol dun wan rush to blow hamster wheel ba.. but unker also want to see how exactly the thing was mapped i.e. on a competitor's tuner kot hahaha..

Unker went to recheck the fuel trims... curiously... its between like 10%--10% lol... short term trim can up to 20% when pedal la...

The -40 -60% apparently is fuel trim on idle/neutral. The feller mcm got different trims for different engine states machiam. The moment uncle neutral, it swings into super -ve, on gear light pedal is close to zero, tekan kuat naik ckit and on engine brake its -10-15%. Its mystifying cause the trim instantly changes between the driving state, unless the bank is not showing the base value, but after modifiers have been applied a.k.a. nett fuel trim kot.

The lagi bestest thing is, there is only 1 fuel trim bank reading.. bukan 2 meh for 4 cylinder? But if based on the fuel trim info so far, ECU is still on a ride it seems. Havent logged the session on WOT yet.. Kuai2 need my hamsterwheel to turn reliably on weekdays lel.

Want sound? Just tebuk lubang at the exhaust piping like how rempits do to their kapcais.

Hentam je.
Explode now - claim tuner. Bonus point, now got reason to change newer engine with bigger turbo.
No explode, readings good - Everything is OK. No need pay for dyno

Rough, loss of power for sure.

If the tuner clamp the sensor voltage(signal) correctly, it shouldn't be wild (reading randomly, hi n lo).
The usual suspect for clamping is the MAP/MAF sensor for fueling.
Ignition is by intercepting(delay/advance signal) of crank sensor.

Yes, your OBD reading comes off directly from your ECU, but if the signal been manipulated from the piggy, expect to see a different reading.

Usually is 1 bank, unless you got a V engine.

Now I wish I installed my piggyback and tune myself already.
Then can understand the problem better.

Tell me about it. Apparently the tuning software is kept within distributor hands tried my luck with the manufacturer kena big NOK lol. Tried my luck searching for even the buildID on the KKTWriter also no results, later kana virus =.= Prob need to find inside job to just get a read on whether the tuner got do his job right.

RM1650 base price for just for a box of cheap electronics prob no faster than my 486-dx (I've a stronk feeling an Arduino could do as well if not better than those KKTs at RM200 base cost a piece with free bundled sensors lel - for all you know its a china knockoff arduino inside ROFL) in the modern year of 2022 - bing ding tokong sing song intercept like 6-7 wires padahal 4 is cylinder ignition, what cha gonna tune with 3 inputs topkek - prob gonna trigger a whole lot of rage if public dug it down to the bare bones kek. Well at least it works, and mebbe its unfair to compare tech industry to rempit market - rempit need food and family to feed too I guess. Now unker also one of them kek.

But oh well.... I assume IF at the same AFR, but making more power than before - it MUST be thru ignition timing right (can't simply be the extra torque carried from lower revs)? I mean at least he prob did test/advance those timings on the WOT pull, I just have this feeling they just applied a flat smoothing based on WOT numbers for anything of lower load linearly rather than fine tuning.

Awal2 pagi unker merempit, can't reproduce anything strange so far. Sked rempit panas2 nanti. Kuai2 kerja lok.

i wonder 3sz or 2nr have big throttle body to fit
from daihatsu or toyoda

What car?
Horsepower up only 80 plus better save the money don’t tune.

Its a dyno dynamics

You had to fully mod your car. Only can achieve high horsepower. I modded my daily working car. To max. Gets 102 Hp. But emit hot in engine a lot.

Dont go to rs. I had tune there before. The tune is shit and didnt improve my hp. After that i tune otr at melaka and it felt 2 times faster than before. Super recommended.