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 We don't clean up non Muslim house of worship

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Azran1979
post Dec 30 2021, 07:16 PM

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the ustaz have a point though. you need to look at the whole speech.

in his words, the is a hadith where muhammad shows cleaning up the mosque is an honourable thing to do.

so from this hadith, the ulamas conjectured that cleaning up other worship house is akin to honouring the other religion. hence it reaches "syirik" (polytheism).

furthermore, there is no pressing necessity to clean up other worship house.

this is what i think. but the ustaz maybe forgot this polemic started in the midst and context of flood disaster. so maybe other muftis can detail and outline the fatwa needed.


Azran1979
post Dec 30 2021, 07:30 PM

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ustaz ni yang agak wahabi/salafi pun melarang perbuatan mencuci rumah ibadah agama lain.

kalau ulamak pondok melarang, ulamak wahabi pun melarang, aku tak tahu nak kata apa lagi.

dalam hal ni aku lagi suka kalau kita tunggu fatwa mufti. malangnya masih belum ada apa2 statement dari jabatan mufti perlis (walaupun perlis agak wahabi).

pada orang awam macam kita yang masih ragu2, tambahan pula dalam keadaan darurat macam ni, teruskan sajalah. kita tawakal saja kerana autoriti sendiri belum ada guideline yang jelas.
Azran1979
post Dec 30 2021, 07:40 PM

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QUOTE(heater8812 @ Dec 30 2021, 07:28 PM)
everyone has a point based on their religion, so as those suicide bomber. same thing.
but then in Msia, the nons always being labeled as reluctant to assimilate with the Malay. And yet, this religious leader keep on saying things that might makes the nons feeling bit uneasy. in the end, it will be salahan nons, so typical.
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we need to be careful in this issues coz it may open the floodgate to many other problems. every religion and race need to protect their own interest and draw lines on certain things.

i have no problem to object preacher who preach hate. during the muslim laundry segregation issue, we know its very dangerous even though the fiqh is very clear about it. but remember we also need to draw line on how far we can tolerate each other. cleaning up worship house is very different than laundry segregation or even christmas greeting.

and of coz politics only make things worse.
Azran1979
post Dec 30 2021, 07:42 PM

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QUOTE(maxpudding @ Dec 30 2021, 07:28 PM)
He’s projecting two different things

I am sure our Prophet would encourage muslims to help others that are in need of help, regardless of religion or race
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depends on the context. do you think the prophet will encourage same sex marriage if it promotes love and harmony?
Azran1979
post Dec 30 2021, 07:45 PM

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QUOTE(maxpudding @ Dec 30 2021, 07:40 PM)
That’s only his opinion, and most of his dalils because of the fear of committing syirik

As long as you are doing charity work, and your beliefs in Islam is strong, continue to do so la

Btw penang mufti did clarify a few things, which I believe is correct

https://worldofbuzz.com/muslims-cleaning-te...void-confusion/
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thanks for the link. that clears it up.

now we can close thread. haha.
Azran1979
post Dec 30 2021, 08:36 PM

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QUOTE(maxpudding @ Dec 30 2021, 07:48 PM)
You are shifting the goalposts and that issue is entirely different than this

But to answer your question, no he will not encourage that lifestyle, but he won’t condemn them like what some people are doing now, he would encourage muslims to pray for them, and do charitable works that might help everyone, even for those LGBT people
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thats my point. it depends on the context. just because its good does not always mean you have to do it. you have to draw a line.

QUOTE(leftycall9 @ Dec 30 2021, 07:48 PM)
Same sex marriage is a sin. How is it comparable to Muslims who helped cleaning other worship places after flood like this?
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syirik (idoltary) is the biggest sin. even bigger sin than homosexuality. 80% of the quran warns about syirik.

its understandable if many muslims are sensitive against this issue.


Azran1979
post Dec 30 2021, 09:45 PM

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QUOTE(yugimudo @ Dec 30 2021, 08:49 PM)
Bersihkan rumah ibadat org bukan Islam mana jatuh syirik oiiiii.

Syirik ni kata dasar di syaraka atau bm dia lebih dari satu.

Camner ko pegang mop kat kuil atau gereja tetiba jadi perbuatan menyekutukan Allah?

Jangan membingaikan akal fikiran.
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kalau begitu kenapa perlunya wujud perbankan islam?

tahukah kamu secara jelas Allah perintahkan manusia memerangi riba?

Allah juga memerintahkan manusia menjauhi zina.

sedangkan menjual arak pun diharamkan syarak, apa lagi membersihkan kuil?

setiap fatwa atau hukum yang kamu keluarkan itu menimbulkan implikasinya yang tersendiri.

mufti pun perlu musyawarah bila nak keluarkan fatwa.

tapi kalau mufti pun kamu tolak, then i rest my case.
Azran1979
post Dec 30 2021, 09:51 PM

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QUOTE(maxpudding @ Dec 30 2021, 09:38 PM)
Pegang mop sapu kuil auto murtad kot utk dia

Takpala biar puak2 tu rasa macam diri dorang tak kuat pegang agama, sbb bila benda2 mcm ni terus nak petik dalil tu dalil ni utk kuatkan justifikasi tak nak tolong non muslim

Luckily I don’t subscribe to that kind of Islam
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kalau nak liberal tak salah.

tapi jangan sampai melanggar batasan.

ada sebabnya kenapa agama melarang tampal gambar manusia dalam rumah.

ada sebabnya kenapa orang melayu tak simpan patung dalam rumah.

nak liberal boleh. tapi kena faham dalil aqli dan naqli. lepas dah faham, kamu nak pegang mazhab apa pun takde sapa persoalkan.

fahaman yang tak dipandu dan tidak terkawal akan memusnah masyarakat.

sebab itu umarak harus menghormati institusi ulamak selagi dalam hal yang haq.
Azran1979
post Dec 30 2021, 09:58 PM

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QUOTE(yugimudo @ Dec 30 2021, 09:51 PM)
Oi bingai. Jual arak dgn bersihkan kuil tak de kaitan.

Tak de dalil yg melarang bersihkan kuil. Kenapa tetiba ada walaun nak haramkan benda yg harus? Dah dah tak yah nak tunjuk bingai kat sini.

Kalau mcm tu, cukai dari kedai judi dgn arak, org Islam jangan sentuh lar. Kenapa ada lagi melayu kerja kat KK dgn 7e yg jual arak?
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sebab tu kamu kena faham dari mana datangnya fatwa.

bila mufti mengeluarkan fatwa ia berdasarkan maslahah (kepentingan) ummah.

fatwa pun boleh berbeza dari satu negeri ke satu negeri malah dari satu negara ke satu negara.

isu kekufuran adalah isu berat. orang awam jangan memandai kalau tak paham metodologi yang digunakan.

saya pun liberal juga. tapi dalam isu yang rumit saya tunggu statement jabatan mufti dulu.
Azran1979
post Dec 30 2021, 10:01 PM

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QUOTE(yugimudo @ Dec 30 2021, 09:55 PM)
Sng citer, xde dalil cakap haram bersihkan gereja dan kuil. Kalau benda tu haram, kita dah ada dah hadis atau ayat Quran yg jelas cakap haram. Gereja ni dh wujud Zaman Nabi. Mustahil Nabi tak bagitau secara jelas pasal benda ni kalau betul haram.
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cara solat kita pun berbeza dari satu mazhab ke satu mazhab.

mana datangnya perbezaan ni kalau bukan intepretasi hadis dan dalil?

sebab tu kena ada mufti yang sediakan garis panduan bergantung konteks dan situasi.

kalau boleh cuci kuil waktu banjir adakah bermaksud boleh juga cuci kuil jika bukan waktu banjir? dan sebagainya.
Azran1979
post Dec 30 2021, 10:04 PM

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QUOTE(Cincai lar @ Dec 30 2021, 09:55 PM)
God's law interpret by human,.. would it be God's law anymore ??
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in the end its for human.

whether you are atheist or not, religion has its function in society.

over the course of thousands of years, religion has evolved to fit with reality of the world. those who did not, will die out.
Azran1979
post Dec 30 2021, 10:11 PM

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QUOTE(yugimudo @ Dec 30 2021, 10:03 PM)
Ko ni.....

Kufur atau kafara ni dari kata dasar yg bermaksud perbuatan yg menutup sesuatu. Contoh mcm kita tanam benih, kita panggil kafara dalam Bahasa Arab.

Cuba cer, tolong bersihkan gereja/kuil ni mcm mana pulak boleh dikaitkan dgn kufur?

Islam suka kita bersihkan benda yg kotor dan menyuruh kita berbuat baik kepada jiran.

Kita bersihkan kuil/gereja bukan sbb nk bersuka ria abang oi. Kita tolong bersihkan sbb kita sama2 dilanda musibah.
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itu bukan pointnya.

bila kerajaan PAS kelantan melarang lampu ditutup di dalam panggung dan memisahkan pengunjung lelaki dan wanita, keputusan tersebut dibuat atas alasan untuk menjauhi zina. zina tidak boleh dilarang bila dah dalam bilik sendiri. sebab tu diperlukan 4 saksi untuk pertuduhan zina.

rasionalnya adalah untuk menjauhi perbuatan yang menjurus kemaksiatan.

aku paham cuci kuil atas dasar membantu mangsa banjir. tapi jika kita benarkan saja tanpa statement dari autoriti, dibimbangi adakah boleh juga mencuci kuil jika tidak banjir? ia menimbulkan chain of reaction dan "precedent case" yang menimbulkan kegelisahan masyarakat.
Azran1979
post Dec 30 2021, 10:21 PM

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QUOTE(ry8128 @ Dec 30 2021, 10:14 PM)
Strike eureka, kam in see the justification for 4 saksi.

Wondering is there anyone would kongkek with 4 ppl around  laugh.gif
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its not funny.

punishment for sexual fornication includes death penalty.

during the prophet time, nobody was convicted.

the rationale among the muslim scholars is the law is there functions just as a deterent.

in reality we all know nobody would fornicate with 4 witnesses. even during the prophet's time.
Azran1979
post Dec 31 2021, 03:09 AM

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QUOTE(bani_prime @ Dec 30 2021, 10:27 PM)
Boleh je kau letak guard situ utk pantau. what a big deal? atau pisahkan buat partition, atau buat check up

sorry bro, but islam today is already like zaman eropah gelap, read this https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications...ay-from-science

mungkin ramai tak sedar, minda kita ni kena racun dengan pemikiran salah terutamanya dari sufi. sebab sufi ni selalu utamakan falsafah2 benda yang batin. As result mind set kita pun asyik tengok batin je, tak nak tengok yg zahir.

Contoh
Kes selfie kat kaabah. Sedangkan org tu cuma bergambar sahaja kerana perasaan gembira. It is self expression as human. Tp mindset sufi ni dia akan fikir fokus benda2 takde depan mata, benda batin,.,...ooo...ni riak, ujub. Sedangkan mana kau tahu

Sama juga dgn kes timah....dah sah2 nama fatimah tu, fatimah. Tp disebabkan mindset sufi yg suka tgk benda2 batin ni, benda timah jadi fatimah. Sedangkan arab tak pernah pun guna singkatan ni

Ni antara racun tersirat yg telah bersarang dlm minda muslim. Tgk pada batin saja....yg zahir depan mata tak nak tengok. Therefore, benda yang tak wujud depan mata pun, diada2kan  macam ada
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apalah ko ni.

takde kaitan dgn sufi.

sebaliknya mentaliti ni dibawa dari aliran salafi/wahabi.

which is really the opposite of sufism.

batiniah tu cerita lain. nusantara dah lama ada batiniah. salafi ni datang selepas revolusi iran dgn modus operandi "pembersihan" agama.

itu cerita lain la.
Azran1979
post Dec 31 2021, 03:16 AM

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QUOTE(maxpudding @ Dec 30 2021, 10:45 PM)
ini la bahayanya kalau terlampau nak control suatu benda

bang, isu disini cuci bagi bersih sebab banjir, bukan cuci suka2 hati...yang ko dok melalut sampai nak cakap "precedent case" tu memang tak masuk akal la dan menjurus kepada senario yang melebih2, dan lebih kepada nak act holier than thou.

Do muslims in this country really need the authority to give them permissions to do kindness? In this case, a charity act of cleaning a temple? Perlu ke? Jiran ko non-muslim minta tolong, ko cakap kat dia 'oh sorry saya perlu permission dari jabatan agama untuk tolong anda, nanti kalau saya tolong saya tak nak jadi precedent case pula"

jangan pula ada orang kata 'certain muslims can't think for themselves as if they don't have hearts nor brains'
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kamu ni tak paham metodologi agama.

tugas ulamak dan para scholars adalah menyediakan panduan atau guidelines.

kamu nak ikut atau tidak bukan persoalannya.

seperti yg aku dah kata awal2 tadi, kalau takde statement dari autoriti, kita proceed saja bantu apa yang sepatutnya.

dulu pun aku takde masalah dengan yoga. tapi lepas fatwa dikeluarkan jabatan mufti, baru aku faham kenapa ianya diharamkan. siapa yang nak teruskan terpulang. tapi pada fikiran aku, aku faham kenapa sebaiknya ia dijauhkan saja.


Azran1979
post Dec 31 2021, 03:20 AM

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QUOTE(wanted111who @ Dec 30 2021, 10:47 PM)
It depends on individual what they think they are cleaning, if they think they are cleaning masjid, then they are cleaning masjid, if they think they are cleaning a place, then that's just another place. If they don't believe, then they not believer.

For noon Muslim who cleaning masjid, they don't see it as cleaning a masjid, they not expecting any honor doing it or score any religion merits. They just thought of cleaning a place.

I help cleaning up temple before, but it don't change my stance as atheist and i don't believe in God. I'm just cleaning another statue made of porcelain. I don't pray after cleaning it.
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no. thats not how educated, methodological thinking works.

islam is a religion developed and revised by scholars.

if everything can be excused by "good-thoughts" then whats stopping prostitution, drugs, and homosexuality?

where is the form and structure? society, especially a religious ones, cannot live with chaos.
Azran1979
post Dec 31 2021, 03:26 AM

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QUOTE(wanted111who @ Dec 30 2021, 11:01 PM)
Kalau orang tu nak berzina, dalam kereta jugak diorang boleh buat, iainya tak terhad pada pawagam sahaja. Hal agama ni adalah hal seseorang individu dengan tuhan dia. Mengapa yang lain sibuk sangat nak kawal?

Ni pointnya, nak kawal. Agama yang mengawal ini sesuai digunakkan oleh negara yang bersifat kleptokrat. Diorang nak mengawal warganegara diorang. Kenapa banyak disini reject komunis cina? Sebab mereka pun mengawal. Nak main pc game pun tak boleh, steam dikasi banned.

Cuba tengok indonesia, diorang liberal bab bab agama. Extremist ada jugak, tapi negara mereka ni dijatuhkan oleh para extremist (Aceh, masih ingat lagi tak?). Banyak lagi negara yang dijatuhkan oleh para extremist , kenapa tak belajar dari kesilapan negara negara ni? Tendang keluar extremist extremist ni. Diorang tunggang agama je, malukan agama, bukan agungkan agama.



Cuba tengok ni, ni islam ke? Siapa yang dia bunuh? Amerika? Bukan, yang dia bunuh tu bangsa dia, agama dia jugak.

Ni video dari sudut pandangan opponent/ lawan mereka



Siapa yang kamu nampak? Orang kafir amerika? Bukan, tapi sebaliknya ialah orang yang sama bangsa, sama agama dengan pengebom berani mati yang disesatkan oleh extremist.
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kamu ni mesti tak belajar agama.

suicide bomber tu cerita lain.

sufism ada extreme. salafi pun ada extreme. ibnu taimiyah pun orang kata extreme tapi kalau baca kitab2 dia orang liberal pun tak percaya.

extremism dalam isis lain. gam di aceh pun lain.

you are making an idiot out of yourself if you simply generalized every one of them as the same extremism.thats what bigots do - stereotyping and generalizing.
Azran1979
post Dec 31 2021, 03:29 AM

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QUOTE(Einjahr @ Dec 30 2021, 11:58 PM)
Saladin didnt just clean the church, he put back the fallen cross in its place,  and washed the blood stained floors with rose water.

what u call that? Syirik?

dun be a fukken retard
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why do you care about saladin? coz its convenient for you? biggrin.gif

muslims around the world follow the prophet and their respective scholars.

saladin is just a political figure. not a religious one.
Azran1979
post Dec 31 2021, 03:31 AM

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QUOTE(Zaryl @ Dec 30 2021, 11:07 PM)
I’ve been searching all day long for banks who can offer me RM10k loan, and i just need to pay RM8k back, and the bank gives me RM2k cashback.

Until today still cannot find.

Back to the topic at hand, i think it’s okay to go cuci cuci temple & tokong DURING the aftermath, because many people are badly affected. Many people are suffering and these kind cleaning activities really help a lot to ease the burden.
Maybe those monks instructed to just cuci cuci the exterior area and not the deity statues, because i think those area are offlimits.
Some more, those monks did helped muslim victims too. They don’t be selective on who they want to help ya?
All extra helps are most welcome.  notworthy.gif

After the aftermath has subsided, no need for muslims to simply come to cuci cuci those places anymore la.

In conclusion, if you or UAI are not badly affected by the flood aftermath, i think you should STFU & instead go HELP the victims in the means of donating some money or go volunteering there yourself.

I am never in favour of UAI since last time, especially when he said it’s okay to use pirated software for our own use, that is made by the non muslims that waged war with muslim eg. The Jews. Isn’t that still considered STEALING?

Good luck answering to God later on why you use Intel-based CPU computer because 1 click of mouse = 1 bullet to kill a palestinian kid
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bodohnya kamu ni. takde kena mengena dengan komen asal aku pun.

sila pahamkan betul2 sebelum post reply tu.

nak aku tulis bahasa inggeris ke?

Azran1979
post Dec 31 2021, 03:32 AM

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QUOTE(hirano @ Dec 30 2021, 11:55 PM)
Nak tunggu authority?

tolong la kekadang guna otak sendiri. God gave us all brain, and please use it to think.

Tak salah cuci rumah ibadat orang lain. Asalkan niat kau jusy utk menolong sesama manusia. Tak kacau akidah or iman kau.  We live in a society, bukan dlm tempurung.

Fucking hell. Bunch of retards who say it is wrong to help other religion is fucking retard. We need to help each other.
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another idiot didnt understand my post.

pls read carefully before replying.

im not your punching bag. laugh.gif

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