Have not approached the condo management because I don't think they can do anything, can they?
File complaint Noisy Neighbours in Strata Tribunal
File complaint Noisy Neighbours in Strata Tribunal
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Jan 15 2021, 06:50 PM, updated 5y ago
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#1
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Hi guys, have anybody have experience filing a case in the Strata Tribunal regarding noisy neighbour? I live in a condo. Have tolerated a noisy neighbour upstairs for over a year. Have talked to them several times. Will stop for ahwile but always go back to being noisy. Loud running for over an hour, screeching furniture, dropping heavy objects on the floor at random hours of the day,.. etc... the worst is jumping like exercising every day.
Have not approached the condo management because I don't think they can do anything, can they? |
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Jan 15 2021, 07:43 PM
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#2
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Tats why dont stay in condo ridox_orimabu and kuing liked this post
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Jan 15 2021, 07:53 PM
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#3
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They would have to entertain hundreds and thousands of complaint every day if they plan to entertain such complaint.
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Jan 15 2021, 07:54 PM
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#4
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31 posts Joined: Dec 2019 |
just move out, dont waste your time with sampah
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Jan 15 2021, 08:02 PM
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#5
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84 posts Joined: Jun 2010 From: kota kinabalu |
last time i stayed at my brother condo in KL , some security guards knocks in our door saying theres a complains from neighbors saying loud noises from our unit of course we didnt make any loud noise, thats what i tell the guards, so they left to check on the next door so i think you can file a complains with the management and they'll send guards upstairs Pikichu liked this post
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Jan 15 2021, 10:49 PM
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Talk to your condo management and if they’re not useless, they’ll do something about it. I’m facing the same issue with my next door and upstairs neighbors due to the shitty soundproofing in my condo. Once I get the chance, will be selling my unit and stick to renting. kuci_mayong and Pikichu liked this post
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Jan 16 2021, 03:07 PM
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#7
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QUOTE(noobieneub @ Jan 15 2021, 06:50 PM) Hi guys, have anybody have experience filing a case in the Strata Tribunal regarding noisy neighbour? I live in a condo. Have tolerated a noisy neighbour upstairs for over a year. Have talked to them several times. Will stop for ahwile but always go back to being noisy. Loud running for over an hour, screeching furniture, dropping heavy objects on the floor at random hours of the day,.. etc... the worst is jumping like exercising every day. I suggest you do some surveillanceHave not approached the condo management because I don't think they can do anything, can they? I also had the same issue, complain about the floor above me. then the floor above me, said they did everything possible to stop the sounds. after they moved out, I thought there was peace. Then the sound came back, furniture screeching, loud stompings. I took the staircase, went up 2 floors above me, no sound 3 floors above me, no sound 4 floors, - turns out to be this idiot who was doing all that noise at 4 am. I complained again n again. Finally the sound stopped. Make sure you are complaining the right person, because sound can travel several floors. oe_kintaro, prolexus, and 4 others liked this post
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Jan 16 2021, 04:30 PM
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#8
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QUOTE(Maria Takagi @ Jan 16 2021, 03:07 PM) I suggest you do some surveillance Sounds logical. I also had the same issue, complain about the floor above me. then the floor above me, said they did everything possible to stop the sounds. after they moved out, I thought there was peace. Then the sound came back, furniture screeching, loud stompings. I took the staircase, went up 2 floors above me, no sound 3 floors above me, no sound 4 floors, - turns out to be this idiot who was doing all that noise at 4 am. I complained again n again. Finally the sound stopped. Make sure you are complaining the right person, because sound can travel several floors. Thanks for the good advise. |
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Jan 19 2021, 04:31 PM
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#9
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QUOTE(mataharih @ Jan 15 2021, 10:49 PM) Talk to your condo management and if they’re not useless, they’ll do something about it. I’m facing the same issue with my next door and upstairs neighbors due to the shitty soundproofing in my condo. I hear ya, yeah Management says all they can do is send guards to talk to them. But this article here says JMB can issue a fine:Once I get the chance, will be selling my unit and stick to renting. https://asklegal.my/p/singing-condo-propert...ance-neighbours Yeah but renting also has the possibility of facing the same issue? Maybe only slightly less hassle to move? For me Ive stayed at this devlopment for more than 18 years. Have never had a problem with any neighbours until now. |
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Jan 19 2021, 04:33 PM
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QUOTE(Maria Takagi @ Jan 16 2021, 03:07 PM) I suggest you do some surveillance Yes, have done surveillance, more than enough video evidence. It's definitely the direct neighbour upstairs. You complained to your management? What did they do about it?I also had the same issue, complain about the floor above me. then the floor above me, said they did everything possible to stop the sounds. after they moved out, I thought there was peace. Then the sound came back, furniture screeching, loud stompings. I took the staircase, went up 2 floors above me, no sound 3 floors above me, no sound 4 floors, - turns out to be this idiot who was doing all that noise at 4 am. I complained again n again. Finally the sound stopped. Make sure you are complaining the right person, because sound can travel several floors. |
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Jan 19 2021, 04:34 PM
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Jan 19 2021, 04:41 PM
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QUOTE(noobieneub @ Jan 19 2021, 04:33 PM) Yes, have done surveillance, more than enough video evidence. It's definitely the direct neighbour upstairs. You complained to your management? What did they do about it? long long processyou gotta keep pressing n dun give up first complain no result but after many complains the neighbor decided to take more steps to reduce sound noobieneub liked this post
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Jan 19 2021, 06:21 PM
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Jan 19 2021, 08:49 PM
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#14
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QUOTE(noobieneub @ Jan 19 2021, 04:31 PM) I hear ya, yeah Management says all they can do is send guards to talk to them. But this article here says JMB can issue a fine: Get MO and the JMB to mediate on your behalf, especially since you’ve been living there for 18 years. It’s your right to enjoy your unit in peace and quiet....as for my issue, it’s bloody kids who’re making the noise, stomping all over the place. Have made many complaints already- the sounds have lessened a bit but okay lah, give and take a bit during mco 2.0.https://asklegal.my/p/singing-condo-propert...ance-neighbours Yeah but renting also has the possibility of facing the same issue? Maybe only slightly less hassle to move? For me Ive stayed at this devlopment for more than 18 years. Have never had a problem with any neighbours until now. I bought this new condo from the developer as an early bird buyer...if I had known my upstairs and next door neighbors would be families with small kids, would have bought a unit on the highest floor. Renting is easier...at least you can break your tenancy if the noise gets too much, and you can survey your neighbors before plucking down money to buy a unit in that development. If only Malaysia had a condo built especially for working professionals with no kids allowed lol! |
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Jan 19 2021, 09:39 PM
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TS, you cannot avoid much noise in condo. It took a lot of patience and sleepless nights for me with a neighbour that blasted his music until 1am in the morning. Have you tried noise cancellation ear piece? oe_kintaro and noobieneub liked this post
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Jan 22 2021, 04:30 PM
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#16
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Jan 22 2021, 04:37 PM
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#17
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QUOTE(mataharih @ Jan 19 2021, 08:49 PM) Get MO and the JMB to mediate on your behalf, especially since you’ve been living there for 18 years. It’s your right to enjoy your unit in peace and quiet....as for my issue, it’s bloody kids who’re making the noise, stomping all over the place. Have made many complaints already- the sounds have lessened a bit but okay lah, give and take a bit during mco 2.0. Hahaaaaa, if they had a no-kids condo like that I straight away buy! But yeah, agree with you that all residents have the basic right to enjoy their units in peace. Previous the neighbour upstairs was a single professional so no problem, but then he sold the unit and then this family moved in. I bought this new condo from the developer as an early bird buyer...if I had known my upstairs and next door neighbors would be families with small kids, would have bought a unit on the highest floor. Renting is easier...at least you can break your tenancy if the noise gets too much, and you can survey your neighbors before plucking down money to buy a unit in that development. If only Malaysia had a condo built especially for working professionals with no kids allowed lol! So I finally had it and got Management involved, they sent in guards and had a chat. So for now, it's better, but we'll see. Monitor for one week, if noise returns, time to take it to the next level. mataharih liked this post
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Jan 22 2021, 04:40 PM
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#18
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QUOTE(Chrono-Trigger @ Jan 19 2021, 09:39 PM) TS, you cannot avoid much noise in condo. Thanks for the suggestion. I understand the normal noises that come with condo living, I've lived in condos for 18 years. But this one is beyond that. It took a lot of patience and sleepless nights for me with a neighbour that blasted his music until 1am in the morning. Have you tried noise cancellation ear piece? But one can't be wearing noise cancellation heapdhones all day right? And to sleep so you won't be woken up at 6-7am with jumping noises how? You didn't take any action against this neighbour? |
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Jan 22 2021, 04:52 PM
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i nowadays also kena teruk from my neighbour on top. everyday 3 times toss grain on the awning to feed crow and pigeon. can u imagine the noise i have to endure when alot of pigeons and crows walking on the awning? complaint to jmb but they just say ok without writting down my complaint.
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Jan 22 2021, 04:59 PM
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#20
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The basis of your claim is nuisance caused by your neighbor. This is outside the jurisdiction of the Strata Management Tribunal. Your case should be filed in a civil court, which is going to be costly. Get your JMB/JMC to deal with them. noobieneub liked this post
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Jan 22 2021, 05:12 PM
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QUOTE(Chrono-Trigger @ Jan 19 2021, 09:39 PM) TS, you cannot avoid much noise in condo. now how? Still playing music until 1am? mco now more free for him.It took a lot of patience and sleepless nights for me with a neighbour that blasted his music until 1am in the morning. Have you tried noise cancellation ear piece? |
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Jan 22 2021, 05:17 PM
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3,389 posts Joined: Sep 2019 |
QUOTE(noobieneub @ Jan 15 2021, 06:50 PM) Hi guys, have anybody have experience filing a case in the Strata Tribunal regarding noisy neighbour? I live in a condo. Have tolerated a noisy neighbour upstairs for over a year. Have talked to them several times. Will stop for ahwile but always go back to being noisy. Loud running for over an hour, screeching furniture, dropping heavy objects on the floor at random hours of the day,.. etc... the worst is jumping like exercising every day. Ask management firstHave not approached the condo management because I don't think they can do anything, can they? |
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Jan 22 2021, 06:33 PM
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4,310 posts Joined: Aug 2013 |
QUOTE(lam86 @ Jan 22 2021, 05:12 PM) they moved out eventually, after few years. i also no longer stay there. noobieneub liked this post
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Jan 22 2021, 08:51 PM
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QUOTE(noobieneub @ Jan 22 2021, 04:37 PM) Hahaaaaa, if they had a no-kids condo like that I straight away buy! But yeah, agree with you that all residents have the basic right to enjoy their units in peace. Previous the neighbour upstairs was a single professional so no problem, but then he sold the unit and then this family moved in. Sounds like your neighbors are reasonable and willing to take action on improving the noises. If it happens again, just call management again or call the guards and meet your neighbor face to face. They will usually be more responsive when they can put a face to the stranger living below them (as per my experience). So I finally had it and got Management involved, they sent in guards and had a chat. So for now, it's better, but we'll see. Monitor for one week, if noise returns, time to take it to the next level. I can already tell the family above is expanding, so for the sake of my sanity, have already planned my exit strategy. |
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Jan 28 2021, 06:42 PM
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#25
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QUOTE(Burningsunz @ Jan 22 2021, 04:52 PM) i nowadays also kena teruk from my neighbour on top. everyday 3 times toss grain on the awning to feed crow and pigeon. can u imagine the noise i have to endure when alot of pigeons and crows walking on the awning? complaint to jmb but they just say ok without writting down my complaint. Wow, I hear ya... not just the noise, but I imagine a lot of sh*t as well? Isn't that a health hazard also? Like others have mentioned, must get on JMB's a$$ several times. |
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Jan 28 2021, 06:46 PM
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#26
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QUOTE(mataharih @ Jan 22 2021, 08:51 PM) Sounds like your neighbors are reasonable and willing to take action on improving the noises. If it happens again, just call management again or call the guards and meet your neighbor face to face. They will usually be more responsive when they can put a face to the stranger living below them (as per my experience). No, not reasonable at all, previously last year already talked to them several times. Guess the threat of JMC giving them a fine gave them an incentive to stop. So far big improvement since they were confronted. Let's see...I can already tell the family above is expanding, so for the sake of my sanity, have already planned my exit strategy. Aiyo, so moving to landed ah? |
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Jan 28 2021, 06:49 PM
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#27
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QUOTE(Mr Mercedes @ Jan 22 2021, 04:59 PM) The basis of your claim is nuisance caused by your neighbor. This is outside the jurisdiction of the Strata Management Tribunal. Your case should be filed in a civil court, which is going to be costly. Ahhh, thanks for that, no wonder can't find any info online. Yeah civil court last option. Already got JMC involved, they had a 'nice' chat.Get your JMB/JMC to deal with them. |
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Jan 28 2021, 07:13 PM
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Jan 28 2021, 07:39 PM
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QUOTE(Maria Takagi @ Jan 16 2021, 03:07 PM) I suggest you do some surveillance What?! 4 floor above!I also had the same issue, complain about the floor above me. then the floor above me, said they did everything possible to stop the sounds. after they moved out, I thought there was peace. Then the sound came back, furniture screeching, loud stompings. I took the staircase, went up 2 floors above me, no sound 3 floors above me, no sound 4 floors, - turns out to be this idiot who was doing all that noise at 4 am. I complained again n again. Finally the sound stopped. Make sure you are complaining the right person, because sound can travel several floors. Condo sound insulation so poor |
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Jan 28 2021, 09:27 PM
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QUOTE(noobieneub @ Jan 28 2021, 06:46 PM) No, not reasonable at all, previously last year already talked to them several times. Guess the threat of JMC giving them a fine gave them an incentive to stop. So far big improvement since they were confronted. Let's see... Hmmm....if you had to talk to them a couple of times, they’re just being assholes. Hope the threat of a fine will deter them. Aiyo, so moving to landed ah? Sad to say, a few days ago, my neighbors’ kids upstairs started their jumping and stomping again, even after midnight. The funny thing is I bought some mats to give to them, as a gesture of goodwill, but their parents refuse to use it....so petty, right? That’s when I knew how insincere they really were. Landed also has it’s share of problems...my relative’s next door neighbors installed a subwoofer or a sound bar so you can imagine how loud it gets when they watch a movie. I’m planning to rent a top floor unit at a pricier condo. Hopefully, that would weed out the trash. |
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Jan 28 2021, 10:09 PM
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QUOTE(hotguuy @ Jan 28 2021, 07:39 PM) Our condo is crap, what to do ? do you see any insulation ? just concrete and concrete is not insulation. imagine you are living in a submarine in the ocean. If somebody hammer from one end of submarine, you will sure hear on the other side. sound travels easily through the steel, same goes with concrete. |
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Feb 5 2021, 07:32 PM
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QUOTE(mataharih @ Jan 28 2021, 09:27 PM) Hmmm....if you had to talk to them a couple of times, they’re just being assholes. Hope the threat of a fine will deter them. Oh yeah, definitely confirmed assholes this one. On the day they were visited by the guards they didn't immediately stop. It was followed by 3 hours of miscellaneous noises, stomping lah, screeching furniture lah etc.. so yes, ASSHOLES. Anyways, they were quiet for the first week after the chat but now they're slowly coming back with new noises. Last few days have been hammering/knocking in the kitchen area in the mornings and evenings. Sad to say, a few days ago, my neighbors’ kids upstairs started their jumping and stomping again, even after midnight. The funny thing is I bought some mats to give to them, as a gesture of goodwill, but their parents refuse to use it....so petty, right? That’s when I knew how insincere they really were. Landed also has it’s share of problems...my relative’s next door neighbors installed a subwoofer or a sound bar so you can imagine how loud it gets when they watch a movie. I’m planning to rent a top floor unit at a pricier condo. Hopefully, that would weed out the trash. Yeah, my friend who stays at landed has a neighbour who started rearing chickens and ducks, and because of the animals poop now got rats! Haaaa... so you choose, noise pollution or pest and smell pollution? |
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Feb 5 2021, 07:34 PM
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QUOTE(Maria Takagi @ Jan 28 2021, 10:09 PM) Our condo is crap, what to do ? Wah, that's bad. I sometimes can hear from two floors up from my neighbour who has young kids running. But they're better than my direct asshole neighbour, had a friendly chat with them and they stopped.do you see any insulation ? just concrete and concrete is not insulation. imagine you are living in a submarine in the ocean. If somebody hammer from one end of submarine, you will sure hear on the other side. sound travels easily through the steel, same goes with concrete. |
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Feb 6 2021, 02:27 PM
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QUOTE(noobieneub @ Feb 5 2021, 07:34 PM) Wah, that's bad. I sometimes can hear from two floors up from my neighbour who has young kids running. But they're better than my direct asshole neighbour, had a friendly chat with them and they stopped. I have a long wooden plank. If I hear chair dragging sound at 1 am, then at 7 am I wake up take that wooden plank and slam on the ceiling. noobieneub liked this post
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Feb 6 2021, 03:50 PM
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QUOTE(mataharih @ Jan 28 2021, 09:27 PM) Hmmm....if you had to talk to them a couple of times, they’re just being assholes. Hope the threat of a fine will deter them. Google ceiling thumper for a laugh.Sad to say, a few days ago, my neighbors’ kids upstairs started their jumping and stomping again, even after midnight. The funny thing is I bought some mats to give to them, as a gesture of goodwill, but their parents refuse to use it....so petty, right? That’s when I knew how insincere they really were. Landed also has it’s share of problems...my relative’s next door neighbors installed a subwoofer or a sound bar so you can imagine how loud it gets when they watch a movie. I’m planning to rent a top floor unit at a pricier condo. Hopefully, that would weed out the trash. mataharih and noobieneub liked this post
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Feb 6 2021, 04:02 PM
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#36
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All Stars
11,667 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Klang/Subang |
QUOTE(Maria Takagi @ Jan 28 2021, 10:09 PM) Our condo is crap, what to do ? Compared to brickwalls, concrete transmit noise readily due to the material.do you see any insulation ? just concrete and concrete is not insulation. imagine you are living in a submarine in the ocean. If somebody hammer from one end of submarine, you will sure hear on the other side. sound travels easily through the steel, same goes with concrete. QUOTE(noobieneub @ Feb 5 2021, 07:32 PM) Oh yeah, definitely confirmed assholes this one. On the day they were visited by the guards they didn't immediately stop. It was followed by 3 hours of miscellaneous noises, stomping lah, screeching furniture lah etc.. so yes, ASSHOLES. Anyways, they were quiet for the first week after the chat but now they're slowly coming back with new noises. Last few days have been hammering/knocking in the kitchen area in the mornings and evenings. Sometimes the noise can be due to mortar and pestle noise.. Yeah, my friend who stays at landed has a neighbour who started rearing chickens and ducks, and because of the animals poop now got rats! Haaaa... so you choose, noise pollution or pest and smell pollution? There is no perfect solution but mass and dampening is required to reduce the noise transmission from upper unit. https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundp...oofing-ceilings Generally in short I would say using rockwool sheets BEFORE/whilst installing plaster ceiling will help. This post has been edited by ceo684: Feb 6 2021, 04:02 PM |
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Feb 11 2021, 03:41 PM
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Feb 11 2021, 03:42 PM
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Feb 11 2021, 03:45 PM
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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Feb 6 2021, 04:02 PM) Compared to brickwalls, concrete transmit noise readily due to the material. Oh, thanks... hmmmm but somehow I don't think this solution would work. Sound also travels from ceiling to walls. Have you tried this before?Sometimes the noise can be due to mortar and pestle noise.. There is no perfect solution but mass and dampening is required to reduce the noise transmission from upper unit. https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundp...oofing-ceilings Generally in short I would say using rockwool sheets BEFORE/whilst installing plaster ceiling will help. |
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Feb 11 2021, 04:37 PM
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Feb 11 2021, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE(Maria Takagi @ Jan 16 2021, 03:07 PM) I suggest you do some surveillance I am surprised the two floors above you didn't complain about the noise?I also had the same issue, complain about the floor above me. then the floor above me, said they did everything possible to stop the sounds. after they moved out, I thought there was peace. Then the sound came back, furniture screeching, loud stompings. I took the staircase, went up 2 floors above me, no sound 3 floors above me, no sound 4 floors, - turns out to be this idiot who was doing all that noise at 4 am. I complained again n again. Finally the sound stopped. Make sure you are complaining the right person, because sound can travel several floors. |
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Feb 11 2021, 05:51 PM
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Feb 11 2021, 06:01 PM
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#43
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QUOTE(imbibug @ Feb 6 2021, 03:50 PM) I need this!QUOTE(noobieneub @ Feb 11 2021, 03:41 PM) You use this to hit the ceiling? I’ve resorted to hitting the ceiling with my mop when I hear them stomping. Stubborn brats and idiotic parents. QUOTE(Maria Takagi @ Feb 11 2021, 05:51 PM) Amazing how shitty the soundproofing is in our condos that you can hear noises a few floors above you. For me, the culprits are definitely my next door and upstairs neighbors. |
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Feb 11 2021, 06:08 PM
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QUOTE(mataharih @ Feb 11 2021, 06:01 PM) I need this! don't be surprise that you can hear your downstair neighbor slam the door too. You use this to hit the ceiling? I’ve resorted to hitting the ceiling with my mop when I hear them stomping. Stubborn brats and idiotic parents. Amazing how shitty the soundproofing is in our condos that you can hear noises a few floors above you. For me, the culprits are definitely my next door and upstairs neighbors. last time I stayed in my uncle condo, he offered me for free to stay, as no one was staying there at that time. Damn, I suffered days n days of sleepless night. There was a mad neighbor upstairs jogging and stomping on the floor from 1 am to 4 am. Nowadays condos got intercom, can call the guard to sound that person. |
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Feb 11 2021, 06:41 PM
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#45
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QUOTE(Maria Takagi @ Feb 11 2021, 06:08 PM) don't be surprise that you can hear your downstair neighbor slam the door too. Wow, your neighbor sounded crazy! Who even works out at that time unless they worked the night shift.last time I stayed in my uncle condo, he offered me for free to stay, as no one was staying there at that time. Damn, I suffered days n days of sleepless night. There was a mad neighbor upstairs jogging and stomping on the floor from 1 am to 4 am. Nowadays condos got intercom, can call the guard to sound that person. How do you handle stubborn neighbors though? Slamming the door is okay since it’s once in awhile but the stomping noises is just annoying and sounds like hammering. Been calling the guards to sound them and even went up there myself, when it got so bad. Maybe I’ll need to file another complaint with MO or go up there with one of the JMB members. olman liked this post
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Feb 11 2021, 06:51 PM
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#46
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All Stars
11,667 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Klang/Subang |
QUOTE(noobieneub @ Feb 11 2021, 03:45 PM) Oh, thanks... hmmmm but somehow I don't think this solution would work. Sound also travels from ceiling to walls. Have you tried this before? Am looking into it for the purpose of heat insulation. Not so much as noise reduction, but rockwool does have noise insulation properties.Concrete walls do allow sound to travel. QUOTE Conductor of Impact Noise https://www.soundproofcow.com/soundproof-concrete-walls/While many people choose concrete as their designated building material based on its hardness and durability, it’s this very quality that prevents concrete from improving acoustical performance. If you have a concrete floor, you may notice that every step produces an audible sound. Impact noises are a byproduct of concrete’s rigidity, which transforms movement into an audible experience. While undesirable, these noisy manifestations can be eliminated with a few soundproofing measures. |
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Feb 12 2021, 10:22 AM
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Senior Member
1,039 posts Joined: Jun 2019 |
QUOTE(mataharih @ Feb 11 2021, 06:41 PM) Wow, your neighbor sounded crazy! Who even works out at that time unless they worked the night shift. sometimes could be kids.How do you handle stubborn neighbors though? Slamming the door is okay since it’s once in awhile but the stomping noises is just annoying and sounds like hammering. Been calling the guards to sound them and even went up there myself, when it got so bad. Maybe I’ll need to file another complaint with MO or go up there with one of the JMB members. hard to control lah but stomping middle of this night could even be adults partying. or some crazy dude to lazy to go down to the gym, wanna jogging in his unit |
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Feb 12 2021, 03:12 PM
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All Stars
11,667 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Klang/Subang |
QUOTE(mataharih @ Feb 11 2021, 06:41 PM) Wow, your neighbor sounded crazy! Who even works out at that time unless they worked the night shift. This one just adjust two screw of the door closer (assume this is standard for condo main door/fire code) and it will be soft close.How do you handle stubborn neighbors though? Slamming the door is okay since it’s once in awhile but the stomping noises is just annoying and sounds like hammering. Been calling the guards to sound them and even went up there myself, when it got so bad. Maybe I’ll need to file another complaint with MO or go up there with one of the JMB members. Its also not good to have it close fast.. finger smashed once, then will be lifelong lesson. |
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Feb 12 2021, 09:49 PM
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Junior Member
169 posts Joined: Aug 2010 From: Tatooine |
You may do so, but you may need lawyers to help you out with the documentation.
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