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 Was I at fault ?, Being criticized for my videography

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TSSotsotzaii
post Apr 9 2020, 02:23 PM, updated 4y ago

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First of all, it's important to know that I ACCEPTED all his constructive feedback, and criticism. I'll try to go into as detail as possible in 2 parts, and would really love to have some advice, because if not, I'm thinking I'm not capable at all as a photographer / videographer.

PART 1 - The Job

So I was asked by this pastor of a church, he is also a friend of mine, his around 50+ and I'm just a young man, his more like an uncle to me, he called me one day to ask if I'm able to do video recording and video editing for the church. As COVID-19 emerges, churches are all closed, and so they decided to make an online video for the sermon so the church members can still view it online. So my job is simple, to record the video when the pastor is talking ( or preaching the sermon ). And after that, I have to do some post editing for the video to make it into a complete one.

PART 2 - The situation

Now, I've done this job for him for 4 session, which is a total of 4 videos, today is the 5th one, and is also the day he complained. So first of all, after the video recording session ended, he told me that I wasn't moving my tripod more than he expected, I wasn't zooming in and out and so on. So I got to thinking, if the speaker is talking, which he is the main focus of the entire video, and he is barely moving, the ONLY thing that I could do in my situation is to zoom in ( WHICH I DID ) and zoom back out, I cannot move the tripod physically because if I do that during recording, it would look very unprofessional with jerky movements and so on, and it's not like I'm filming action sports video where I handheld the tripod and move around catching all the actions, but this is different, this is just recording the speaker talking, giving the sermon, so in that sense, I should be staying still, and not moving the camera too much, does anyone agree with me ? And after that, he said that I'll really struggle in this industry because I'm not being creative, I'm not moving panning the camera left or right, now, if the speaker is constantly or occasionally moving from one side to another, then I can pan the camera to follow him, but if he is staying still in one spot, obviously my camera would be in the same spot focusing on him, am I right or wrong ? So basically that's what happeneed, and all I did was nod and said yes yes, because I don't want to argue with him.

Now, my main question is, was my style of doing and recording the video wrong ? Because I thought for this kind of job specific, this should be the way to record it, or is he right ? Would love to hear some opinions and advice.
CRaider2
post Apr 9 2020, 02:34 PM

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there is no right or wrong. be humble and listen since he is the client and there might be a lesson to be learnt. might as well go thru with him and highlight where he wants changes so both of you are clear on what is required. can add another camera so no need to pan so much? even after you become some hotshot professional, stay humble as there is always something to learn
weissPC
post Apr 9 2020, 02:43 PM

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Say thank you, if have time, just demo to him if move tripod around he will cause headaches to the viewers.

If he wanted more movements or more viewpoints, but need to look professionally done, tell him you need another camera, and whether he willing to pay for it, it not, you will keep to the same layout.

Or just to make him happy, maybe you can use a good phone camera to record another viewpoint and add in that view point during video editing, see if he's happier. The difference in video quality will be visible but viewers will give feedback to the pastor.
TSSotsotzaii
post Apr 9 2020, 02:56 PM

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QUOTE(CRaider2 @ Apr 9 2020, 02:34 PM)
there is no right or wrong. be humble and listen since he is the client and there might be a lesson to be learnt. might as well go thru with him and highlight where he wants changes so both of you are clear on what is required. can add another camera so no need to pan so much? even after you become some hotshot professional, stay humble as there is always something to learn
*
I've always been humble no matter how good I am, but I won't say that I'm good. Throughout the whole time I did not comment on what he said I just said I agree. But what he wants even he himself doesn't know and he is already talking about stuff like if you continue to be in this industry, you will struggle, unless you are good at photography ( which I am ), this is sort of a bit more personal attack ? The constructive feedback that he gave me, I know it all, but in this situation, it's just not the norm to pan left or right, because the main key point is the person giving the sermon, the speech, UNLESS there is something else that requires focus on the left or right, for example a music band, then occasionally i can pan, but there isn't, so I'm seriously dumbfounded.

And, he was talking about I should be more creating while recording, how creative you want me to be? I mean, there just isn't much ways to be creative in this sort of video taking for this specific situation.

This post has been edited by Sotsotzaii: Apr 9 2020, 02:57 PM
jarodlkp
post Apr 9 2020, 03:00 PM

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QUOTE(CRaider2 @ Apr 9 2020, 02:34 PM)
there is no right or wrong. be humble and listen since he is the client and there might be a lesson to be learnt. might as well go thru with him and highlight where he wants changes so both of you are clear on what is required. can add another camera so no need to pan so much? even after you become some hotshot professional, stay humble as there is always something to learn
*
I like this one.
jarodlkp
post Apr 9 2020, 03:03 PM

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QUOTE(Sotsotzaii @ Apr 9 2020, 02:23 PM)
First of all, it's important to know that I ACCEPTED all his constructive feedback, and criticism. I'll try to go into as detail as possible in 2 parts, and would really love to have some advice, because if not, I'm thinking I'm not capable at all as a photographer / videographer.

PART 1 - The Job

So I was asked by this pastor of a church, he is also a friend of mine, his around 50+ and I'm just a young man, his more like an uncle to me, he called me one day to ask if I'm able to do video recording and video editing for the church. As COVID-19 emerges, churches are all closed, and so they decided to make an online video for the sermon so the church members can still view it online. So my job is simple, to record the video when the pastor is talking ( or preaching the sermon ). And after that, I have to do some post editing for the video to make it into a complete one.

PART 2 - The situation

Now, I've done this job for him for 4 session, which is a total of 4 videos, today is the 5th one, and is also the day he complained. So first of all, after the video recording session ended, he told me that I wasn't moving my tripod more than he expected, I wasn't zooming in and out and so on. So I got to thinking, if the speaker is talking, which he is the main focus of the entire video, and he is barely moving, the ONLY thing that I could do in my situation is to zoom in ( WHICH I DID ) and zoom back out, I cannot move the tripod physically because if I do that during recording, it would look very unprofessional with jerky movements and so on, and it's not like I'm filming action sports video where I handheld the tripod and move around catching all the actions, but this is different, this is just recording the speaker talking, giving the sermon, so in that sense, I should be staying still, and not moving the camera too much, does anyone agree with me ? And after that, he said that I'll really struggle in this industry because I'm not being creative, I'm not moving panning the camera left or right, now, if the speaker is constantly or occasionally moving from one side to another, then I can pan the camera to follow him, but if he is staying still in one spot, obviously my camera would be in the same spot focusing on him, am I right or wrong ? So basically that's what happeneed, and all I did was nod and said yes yes, because I don't want to argue with him.

Now, my main question is, was my style of doing and recording the video wrong ? Because I thought for this kind of job specific, this should be the way to record it, or is he right ? Would love to hear some opinions and advice.
*
I am not a videographer but I feel you because it is more like being challenged. In work, I usually is get over with it and learn and move on. Darn... life is too short to make 5 videos tongue.gif (just my sense of humour) should move on and more videos.
TSSotsotzaii
post Apr 9 2020, 03:05 PM

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QUOTE(jarodlkp @ Apr 9 2020, 03:03 PM)
I am not a videographer but I feel you because it is more like being challenged. In work, I usually is get over with it and learn and move on. Darn... life is too short to make 5 videos tongue.gif (just my sense of humour) should move on and more videos.
*
I agree, and hence I did not comment on whatever he said at that moment. I'd move on anyway, but then because this is going to be a weekly thing, so next week I should actually ask him, what exactly does he want ? So I perhaps in that way can understand better.
jarodlkp
post Apr 9 2020, 03:09 PM

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QUOTE(Sotsotzaii @ Apr 9 2020, 03:05 PM)
I agree, and hence I did not comment on whatever he said at that moment. I'd move on anyway, but then because this is going to be a weekly thing, so next week I should actually ask him, what exactly does he want ? So I perhaps in that way can understand better.
*
Yup. Whatever you think is right, just do it. Continue to do it or ask Uncle look for someone else to do it =) In your religion way, ask HIM to give your wisdom to choose the right path.
liquidsny
post Apr 9 2020, 03:16 PM

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Im no expert but i think i understand what he wants.

He wants you to have video of him from the side, zoom in zoom out like a garage band type of video because he doesnt want his viewer to be bored with just a front video
TSSotsotzaii
post Apr 9 2020, 03:43 PM

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QUOTE(liquidsny @ Apr 9 2020, 03:16 PM)
Im no expert but i think i understand what he wants.

He wants you to have video of him from the side, zoom in zoom out like a garage band type of video because he doesnt want his viewer to be bored with just a front video
*
Actually the guy that is doing the talking isn't him, his just the guy that is arranging this and that, the guy who's doing talking and is the head pastor, loves the way the video came out in final. But for this guy, he wants this and that but does not know how to express what he wants, I get lost sometimes thinking to myself what is he talking about, but I'd let it pass, next week i'll try to communicate with him again.
liquidsny
post Apr 9 2020, 03:48 PM

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QUOTE(Sotsotzaii @ Apr 9 2020, 03:43 PM)
Actually the guy that is doing the talking isn't him, his just the guy that is arranging this and that, the guy who's doing talking and is the head pastor, loves the way the video came out in final. But for this guy, he wants this and that but does not know how to express what he wants, I get lost sometimes thinking to myself what is he talking about, but I'd let it pass, next week i'll try to communicate with him again.
*
I see. Are you going to upload the video somewhere we'll be able to see? I'd love to take a look
TSSotsotzaii
post Apr 9 2020, 04:01 PM

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QUOTE(liquidsny @ Apr 9 2020, 03:48 PM)
I see. Are you going to upload the video somewhere we'll be able to see? I'd love to take a look
*
Sure, do note that everything in the video, after done have to go through him, and although there's not much changes but most of the changes are done by him, not me, even though i feel it doesn't look right or anything, but I just do wat he wants. For example, he wants the video quality to be low, not high.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ievp8xKLD6w
CRaider2
post Apr 9 2020, 04:53 PM

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QUOTE(Sotsotzaii @ Apr 9 2020, 03:43 PM)
Actually the guy that is doing the talking isn't him, his just the guy that is arranging this and that, the guy who's doing talking and is the head pastor, loves the way the video came out in final. But for this guy, he wants this and that but does not know how to express what he wants, I get lost sometimes thinking to myself what is he talking about, but I'd let it pass, next week i'll try to communicate with him again.
*
seems like he is on a power trip but i rather give him benefit of doubt. maybe he is trying to impart wisdom without really knowing the content. lots of people like him. you learn to listen and move on. the smart thing is not to argue. try and accommodate him, even if it is token attempt to show him u tried. i dont know how to describe in a specific situation but the gist of it is as long as they you see tried to follow their method they cant really blame you. even if they going to find fault just say you have reached the limit of your capability and maybe they should someone else. Usually the end result if it is good will justify the work. give him a bit "face" and you go a long way. just be diplomatic about it

edit on a lighter side of note, maybe he wanted mr bean zoom biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by CRaider2: Apr 9 2020, 05:00 PM
Grajindo
post Apr 9 2020, 07:52 PM

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have you asked this guy for a sample video that he's trying to get from you?

me myself is part of the broadcasting team in church and yes, normally during sermon, we do have at least 2-3 cameras (1 is rolling to have different framing so in post production. but of course, you would need two sets of gears to achieve this.

another way to achieve this with 1 set of gear is if your camera has 4k capability, record in 4k so it allows you to have the cropping ability to achieve 2 different framing.

or when you need to switch to PPT slide, that's the time you can move your tripod.

but tbh i've watched your video, i think it's actually quite alright.

This post has been edited by Grajindo: Apr 9 2020, 07:55 PM
TSSotsotzaii
post Apr 9 2020, 08:10 PM

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QUOTE(Grajindo @ Apr 9 2020, 07:52 PM)
have you asked this guy for a sample video that he's trying to get from you?

me myself is part of the broadcasting team in church and yes, normally during sermon, we do have at least 2-3 cameras (1 is rolling to have different framing so in post production. but of course, you would need two sets of gears to achieve this.

another way to achieve this with 1 set of gear is if your camera has 4k capability, record in 4k so it allows you to have the cropping ability to achieve 2 different framing.

or when you need to switch to PPT slide, that's the time you can move your tripod.

but tbh i've watched your video, i think it's actually quite alright.
*
Thanks. Yes he did mentioned at the early stage before we made the 1st video that he wanted few cameras for different angle, but because i'm one man show so he rub that idea off. Right now his main issue with me is probably why I didn't zoom in during recording ? I did explained to him why I did not zoom in during recording, due to the jerky movement that it will result of the zooming, so I'm at a loss as well, he said zooming in is about how skillful u are, but in reality it's not, there are proper tools for us to zoom in smoothly but i don't have those tools atm. As for the slides, he wants the slides to ALWAYS be in the video throughout the sermon speaking, so if I zoom in, that slide will be an issue, but I have no idea how to make him understand, so far so good it's just he got these minor issues here and there.
Grajindo
post Apr 9 2020, 09:38 PM

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QUOTE(Sotsotzaii @ Apr 9 2020, 08:10 PM)
Thanks. Yes he did mentioned at the early stage before we made the 1st video that he wanted few cameras for different angle, but because i'm one man show so he rub that idea off. Right now his main issue with me is probably why I didn't zoom in during recording ? I did explained to him why I did not zoom in during recording, due to the jerky movement that it will result of the zooming, so I'm at a loss as well, he said zooming in is about how skillful u are, but in reality it's not, there are proper tools for us to zoom in smoothly but i don't have those tools atm. As for the slides, he wants the slides to ALWAYS be in the video throughout the sermon speaking, so if I zoom in, that slide will be an issue, but I have no idea how to make him understand, so far so good it's just he got these minor issues here and there.
*
this is all pre-record and not live stream right?

if so, maybe just an idea, for duration that you know you will be showing PPT slide in your video (i.e. 11:39 the actual slide), that might be the time you can do some zooming as that'll be the time your zooming footage will not be in final video. try to make use of the actual PPT slide moment to cover some of the dirty movement.

TSSotsotzaii
post Apr 9 2020, 10:14 PM

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QUOTE(Grajindo @ Apr 9 2020, 09:38 PM)
this is all pre-record and not live stream right?

if so, maybe just an idea, for duration that you know you will be showing PPT slide in your video (i.e. 11:39 the actual slide), that might be the time you can do some zooming as that'll be the time your zooming footage will not be in final video. try to make use of the actual PPT slide moment to cover some of the dirty movement.
*
Yup pre-record. That's a good idea, but how am I going to zoom in and out smoothly ? Because u need some kind of tool meant for zooming in using the lens right ?
DS_Legacy
post Apr 10 2020, 10:27 AM

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Hey Sotsotzaii

I am some experience in videography for few years. I think you are doing alright for a one man show. But you can try to accept criticism in a positive way. I know it's not easy to take comments especially when you are so limited. Trust me, I been there a few times. Be it actual day wedding or corporate events. No matter how much people pay you, they expect you to deliver the best.

So, if you happen to get a one man show videography job next time, meet your customer and let them know what's the final video is going to look like (including all the flaws, potential improvement if you have a 2nd videographer, storyboard ideas, potential changes they can make and etc). Try not to over promise and under deliver the service. When potential customer willing to meet you, chances of getting the job is almost 100%. No one would wanna waste time on useless person right?

To be able to succeed in this industry or not, it's not up to what he says. Take his words with a pinch of salt. He just throwing words because he is frustrated with his own expectations and not realizing how much has he paid for the videography. Many elders out there think RM1000 is a lot for this kind of video and most of the time, they are expecting 2-3 sets of cameras.

Don't worry man, you are doing alright.
TSSotsotzaii
post Apr 10 2020, 10:59 AM

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QUOTE(DS_Legacy @ Apr 10 2020, 10:27 AM)
Hey Sotsotzaii

I am some experience in videography for few years. I think you are doing alright for a one man show. But you can try to accept criticism in a positive way. I know it's not easy to take comments especially when you are so limited. Trust me, I been there a few times. Be it actual day wedding or corporate events. No matter how much people pay you, they expect you to deliver the best.

So, if you happen to get a one man show videography job next time, meet your customer and let them know what's the final video is going to look like (including all the flaws, potential improvement if you have a 2nd videographer, storyboard ideas, potential changes they can make and etc). Try not to over promise and under deliver the service. When potential customer willing to meet you, chances of getting the job is almost 100%. No one would wanna waste time on useless person right?

To be able to succeed in this industry or not, it's not up to what he says. Take his words with a pinch of salt. He just throwing words because he is frustrated with his own expectations and not realizing how much has he paid for the videography. Many elders out there think RM1000 is a lot for this kind of video and most of the time, they are expecting 2-3 sets of cameras.

Don't worry man, you are doing alright.
*
Hey, thanks a lot, what u said really built up my confidence and I surely am going to continue to do what I do best, although I am not as good as most, but I am constantly improving, and hence I accepted all his criticism in a positive way and I did not react negatively. Because no matter what, he have more working experience in life than I do.

I agree with the part where many elders thinks that RM 1000 is a hefty amount to pay, in fact, I only charge him RM 300 per video INCLUDES video editing, on the other hand, he wants me to complete each video in less than a day's time, so it's really quite rushy, which I think for this I should increase my price, but it's fine. So I mean I'm doing the best I can, even though I believe I charge him at a pretty low rate compared to most people who would charge higher, but I still do the best of it within my abilities. Next week is another session, and this time I'll ask him what do he want or expect, because for the first 4 videos that I did for him, he said it's very good and he loves it, but it's only the last session he was being quite critical of me for some reason, which I have to find out exactly because I don't understand what he is trying to express, I will update this post as we go. smile.gif

This post has been edited by Sotsotzaii: Apr 10 2020, 10:59 AM
DS_Legacy
post Apr 10 2020, 12:15 PM

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QUOTE(Sotsotzaii @ Apr 10 2020, 10:59 AM)
Hey, thanks a lot, what u said really built up my confidence and I surely am going to continue to do what I do best, although I am not as good as most, but I am constantly improving, and hence I accepted all his criticism in a positive way and I did not react negatively. Because no matter what, he have more working experience in life than I do.

I agree with the part where many elders thinks that RM 1000 is a hefty amount to pay, in fact, I only charge him RM 300 per video INCLUDES video editing, on the other hand, he wants me to complete each video in less than a day's time, so it's really quite rushy, which I think for this I should increase my price, but it's fine. So I mean I'm doing the best I can, even though I believe I charge him at a pretty low rate compared to most people who would charge higher, but I still do the best of it within my abilities. Next week is another session, and this time I'll ask him what do he want or expect, because for the first 4 videos that I did for him, he said it's very good and he loves it, but it's only the last session he was being quite critical of me for some reason, which I have to find out exactly because I don't understand what he is trying to express, I will update this post as we go. smile.gif
*
Maybe try to meet him or video call with him 2 days before the actual shoot. So both parties have buffer time for any special/necessary arrangement before the actual shooting day.

Yeah RM300 is a bit underpaid. You probably spend RM50 on food, petrol, electric bill and tolls on the journey to the church. But that's okay. Economy is not good now. All my projects are either cancelled or postponed. laugh.gif

Wish you the best for the upcoming shoot!

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