Not that much significance that we would like to especially to believers since the Bible kinda silent about it.

But, the fire in refining is significant for Christians, YES in principle. I am in the minority here, believing that term salvation not only refers to salvation from God's condemnation that we receive once for all through faith but also to the continual process of sanctification that we undergo throughout the course of our life (Rom 5:10 - the much more salvation). This is God's FULL salvation. (PS: Once we presuppose this definition, the problem of Cal vs Arm is solved - because both assumed salvation = the initial regeneration).

This is very much related, positively, to the Apostle Paul's burden for the believers' growth to maturity and it permeates 1 Corinthians.

As the result of their growth in the divine life, the sons of God, in contrast to the children of God, are mature, full-grown, in their understanding. There is a lot more in other aspects e.g. mind, emotion etc.

The fact that sonship, the making of believers into mature sons of God, is an organic process can be seen in numerous places in the New Testament.

Espcially in Romans:

There is a progression to become sons of God through salvation in life (5:10), which, according to Romans, includes sanctification, renewing, transformation, conformation, and glorification (6:19; 12:2; 8:29-30).

The more we are sanctified, renewed, transformed, and conformed, the more we become sons of God, awaiting "the freedom of the glory of the children of God" (v. 21). This glory is related to the redemption, the transfiguration, of our body, which is the full sonship (v. 23).

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With regards to the fire:

In the present age of the church God gives us His life, He affords us His grace, and He also prepares the environment and circumstances we need to grow into maturity. He even uses items of the first death, such as weakness, sickness, trouble, and hardship, to help us grow. But if, in spite of the life, the grace, and the environment, we still do not mature in this age, then, in His wisdom, God will use the last dispensation, the dispensation of the kingdom, to make us mature. To the mature and perfected ones [will be significantly lesser than 1/3 ... very significantly ], the millennium will be a reward and an enjoyment. But to the immature ones, it will be a loss (saved as thru fire) and a dealing.

In the last dispensation God will even use the items related to the second death to discipline and to punish the immature believers. He will do this with the positive intention of forcing them to grow into maturity so that they may be prepared to enter into the New Jerusalem in the new heaven and the new earth. Therefore, during the millennium God will discipline the immature believers to rid them of their shame and to bring them into maturity. After the thousand years, Satan will be released and used by the Lord to test rebellious mankind and to purge out man’s rebellious nature. After this, the dead unbelievers and the demons will be judged at the great white throne, and all these negative things, including death and Hades, will be swept into the universal “trash can,” the lake of fire. At that time, everything negative throughout the whole universe will be in the lake of fire, and the new heaven and the new earth will come with the New Jerusalem.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Sep 20 2020, 02:34 PM

As before, brother, I really don't know what to make of your statements. At times it can be contradictory or just a statement.

Well, you have to right to and depending on our understanding of end times, it may differ. I only hope that if you are to give an alternative intepretation, you got to substantiate more.
For example, you didn't give any explanation to the psychological response. I really don't understand the false sense of security and detrimental to the soul.

We have to mature in this age or will be prefected for 1000 years. How is this a false sense? Isn't that an incentive to mature. I want to be an mature overcome in this age and bring the Lord back!

Er .. no. Where did you get that definition that it means heaven? Can you share more?

Jeffery Burton's A History of Heaven quoted:

No single view of heaven exists in the NT ... The Epistles and Gospels say little about a celestial paradise, because the earliest Christian writers were expecting the imminent return of Christ and the end of the world.

They believed that salvation meants the individual is submerged ... joins with God .... and with the church in the communion of saints.

It is really a later development. So I really doubt that statement

Furthermore, the testimony of the early church father is pretty solid. The church historian Philip Schaff writes:



This application of Psalm 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8, and Hebrews 4:9 in Epistle of Barnabas clearly indicates the expectation that a Sabbath rest of one thousand years would follow the visible second coming of Christ.

Another was Papias of Hierapolis, who had personal contact with the disciples of the Lord, especially John. He is called “a hearer of John, and a friend of Polycarp,” who recounted what “the Lord taught in regard to those times,” that is, the times of the coming kingdom (153-154). The fragments of Papias that
we possess today speak mainly of the outward manifestations of the restored earth during the millennium.

We have even have quotes from Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian.

In his “Dialogue with Trypho,” he says,

I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.
Justin does not depend on the extra-biblical notions of the millennium available at this time, but instead builds upon a scriptural foundation. He quotes Isaiah 65:17-25, which speaks of the restoration of the earth centered in Jerusalem, preceding it with, “Isaiah spake thus concerning this space of a thousand years”.

Also, there are verses that implies ... not just that verses in Revelation 20.

You got to do better than that than to dismiss it. (The rest of your comments, I just can't take it seriously .... )

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That is the thing also, that our escahalogical views might be different and it affects our conclusion. But that is ok ... . Also kinda lazy to get into any discussion on this ....

But there is statements you made that don't make sense to me ... and sometimes out of nowhere.

E.g. i don't believe in the term 'immature' Christians. We are to grow in grace & knowledge now.

That is an oxymoron statement. I am stating that we need to grow


Again, you have to engage the texts I posted (those long before) ... like the very one Paul wrote: "if any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire” (Gk). " You have to engage the text in Hebrew on the incentive reward and punishment for the Hebrew believers.

But like before, I don't really want to get into these .... there are far better things ... e.g. theosis

This post has been edited by pehkay: Sep 20 2020, 08:15 PM

You can be a Christian because salvation is not dependant on it per se rather, we are saved by being regenerated through believing and receiving Christ into you.

But you would be a poor Christian in experience if you don't know the OT.

The spiritual things of the New Testament are mysterious. Because they are mysterious, it is difficult to describe them or define them. So, the Bible follows the principle of illustrating spiritual things by shadows, figures, and types. It is similar to the way children are taught to read in school. Along with the word dog, the teacher will show the children a picture of a dog. So, Bible first affords a picture and then the plain words. In the Old Testament we have the types and pictures, and in the New Testament we have the definition, the fulfillment, of the types and pictures of the Old Testament.

For example:

The most comprehensive picture in the Old Testament is that of the children of Israel. The entire nation of Israel is a great picture of the church. God has had two peoples - one in the Old Testament, the children of Israel, and the other in the New Testament, the church. God's people in the Old Testament are a type of His people in the New Testament.

So, God employs the picture of the children of Israel to enable us to have a clear understanding of the church. We need to look at the picture first and then read the definition. Before the church came into being, there was already a picture of the church in the Old Testament. Although the church has now come into existence, it is nevertheless difficult to understand the church because it is a spiritual entity. Thus, we still need the picture of the church in the Old Testament.

Simply put it is like a textbook without pictures and it is hard to describe. But with a picture, you will go "Oh!!".

Hope that helps...

This post has been edited by pehkay: Sep 21 2020, 11:23 AM

So animated today, y’all

Don’t forget to pray for the Father’s will be done in these times

In my view, one have to realize what God wants to do and gain in this age. But, it is hard to convey this because my understandings may differs from you all - and it is best that we don't try to get into realm of right or wrong regarding God's Being.

1) What I believe is that all the major events of human history have been arranged and matched by God for His move on earth; since God has a purpose to accomplish with mankind on earth, He surely has the sovereign authority to manage the situation in human history (Acts 17:26; 5:31; Rom. 12:4-5; Rev. 19).

2) The entire world situation with its "birth pangs" is for the completion of the re-formation of Israel and also for the completion of the full delivery of the universal new man through building up of the Body as the preparation of the bride (Matt. 24:32-34; Mark 13:8; Dan. 12:1-2; Rev. 12:1-2, 5.)

So we cooperate (by praying etc.) with the full realization of God's view of human history by seeing that the gospel is speeded up and even maximized by war, famine, and death and by seeing that we need to gain God to the fullest extent to accomplish the goal of His divine economy (Phil. 3:8, 12-14).

Although Satan rebelled against God, was condemned and even sentenced by God, but in His wisdom and sovereignty, God has not yet fully executed His judgment on Satan; He still has given Satan a certain limited time to do something to meet some negative need in the fulfillment of His economy. This is clearly seen in the book of Job where God, through Satan as an “ugly tool,” was tearing down Job in two ways: stripping and consuming;

God's stripping and consuming were exercised over Job to tear Job down that God might gain Job so that he might gain God more; our outer man is being consumed so that our inner man may be renewed day by day.

Job's sufferings were not God's judgment but God's stripping, consuming, and tearing down so that He might have a base and a way to rebuild Job with Himself, to make Job a God-man, a new man in God’s new creation (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15).

It is through His stripping, consuming, and tearing down that God dispenses Himself into those who love Him and seek after Him.

From the picture in OT, God's purpose in dealing with believers is that they would be emptied of everything and receive only God as their gain; the desire of God’s heart is that we would gain Him in full as life, as the life supply, and as everything to our being. Eventually as the corporate Body for His corporate expression (just like your human body expresses you).

The end of the book of Job tells us that Job eventually saw God; in the New Testament sense, seeing God equals gaining God; to see God is to be transformed into the glorious image of Christ, the God-man, that we may express God in His life and represent Him in His authority (Job. 42:5-6; 2 Cor. 3:18)

Yes. It is the work of the enemy to cause brethren unable to gather together for corporate worship towards the Lord but in the Lord's sovereignty (in His absolute authority and right, He has allowed it).

But, we should "Not abandoning our own assembling together" (Heb. 10:25). Just as it was NOT exactly easy (persecution and death) in the 1st century when Hebrews was written. We don't expect it any difference I guess.

We still have to give ourselves through online meetings to continue assembling together. We will find ways and there is still the race to run.

As we are still running to the end, I don't think it will get any better

This post has been edited by pehkay: Oct 15 2020, 12:04 PM

Well, at least you now know that cultural angels with wings and harps isn't going to cut it anymore .

But IMO, don't pay so much attention to it but I know speculation is fun. Fixation in these things don't really profits anything toward your growth and the knowledge of God's will.

Rather one should see as the Bible is written for man, we should see what the four living creatures symbolize spiritually in God's intention. The picture of the four living creatures is similar to an impressionistic painting; it illustrates the kind of service that God desires and the expression that God wants.

Anyway, that all I can say ... because it is diverting the subject ...

This post has been edited by pehkay: Oct 26 2020, 11:00 AM

I posted something .. a long while back .... on Molinism ....

https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?act=ST&f...post&p=84360360

LOL, like I said, interesting stuff ... brought it up for awareness. Not that I subsribe to it. I mean, there is even recently (well sort of), Anselmian free will has also entered into the discussion.

I don't see either the contradiction between both as revealed in the Scripture. But to be fair, it all depends on the definition of free will employed ... the secular one etc etc.

While I differ (to your man's depravity and free will) in that sin has separated man fom God so that man is incapable of saving himself by good works. In this sense fallen man is totally depraved and in desperate need of a Savior. While sin has negatively affected our thoughts and concepts, we are not so utterly ruined as to have lost all rational capabilities.

After Adam and Eve’s failure, God reasoned with Adam and clothed him with the skin of a redemptive sacrifice. Even though he was not regenerated, Adam demonstrated his faith in God’s promised redemption by calling his wife Eve, meaning “Living,” and by teaching his children to follow the God ordained way of salvation. Further, Abraham believed God (Gal. 3:6) and was called “the father of all those...who believe” (Rom. 4:11), even though he lived two thousand years before the Lord told Nicodemus that he must be born anew (John 3:7).

But I digress - still it is NOT a problem. This is the two-foldness of the truth. God is sovereign and man has free will. Amen to that!
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I can go further, to say all models including reformed ... still hasn't addressed His predestination and man's cooperation in the light of the union of God and man where God and man are one (living in and with the TG). Now that is something

It is theosis! XD God became man to make man God (in life and nature but not in the Godhead - just to qualify it in case of crazy people around us ). Yes. But we all may differ on the er ... er ... lack of better term, the "implementation" ....

But synergistically? hoho .... let's not use those terms so carelessly .... rather I would say both definitions of monergistic and synergistically currently fails to fully captured this active-passive relationship.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Oct 30 2020, 10:28 AM

I will amen to that. The practical experience of God's sovereignty in our life is so good yet we are still responsible for our choices to cooperate, matters. Every Christians should have that

This post has been edited by pehkay: Oct 30 2020, 09:58 AM

Sorry ah, I am very lazy whenever this comes up . I am not sure why is there is a concern. Rather, would one would encourage to try not to view each believers in a nice theological box. Unfortunately, this is the mentality that denominates us all into group.

It is not that I share on theosis or deification, I am Orthodox. Or if I with the assurance of salvation, then I am Reformed or Calvinistic. Or I do say that salvation is also by work, that I am of Arminianism/Wesleyan. Or when I shared on the work of Spirit, then I am Pentecostal ... this is too low

Rather one should realized that God's revelation is progressive in His sovereignty. Truth is truth no matter how it is presented (of course, we have to reject what is not of the divine revelation). We can't deny that God uses different groups of people to recover His truths progressively throughout 2000 years.

Through Luther, the law and grace(gospel) (since you mentioned hermeneutics -- less known than justification by faith). Through Calvin, the covenants. Through the brethrens, dispensationalism. Many more we can say of so many ... sanctification through Wesley, church life through Zinzendorf, John Fox (receiving enlightenments), gospel preaching through (Moody, Livingstone, Hudson Taylor etc). The inner-life Christians (Andrew Murray, Jessie Pen Lewis). The Pentecostal recovered outward baptism of the Holy Spirit).

Lol, the Eastern Oorthodox do not have exclusive claim on deification (though they tend to). Renewed discussion since 2006 has been pretty interesting.

This thought is so given in Patristic fathers all the way down. Even right now Finnish scholarship have found deification in writings of Luther (check out one of my older post). You should also see deification found in writings of John Edward and John Calvin. Lol, even Anglican writings have came up to claim there is traces. A book came up to claim John Wesley's songs has theme of deification in it. New terms like Christification, Christosis, and Triadosis.

Man, God has a way to reintroduce what was lost into the Body of Christ. This is why too much time and energy wasted on small things like sovereighty vs free will and salvation by faith and work ..... rather, one show pursue and see this high truth.


My 2 cents! Oh ... I am just a Christian.

Why not both.jpg

LOL ... nah was referring to your 2nd statement, though was thinking about some other thing ...

One died for all" (2 Cor. 5:14, 1 Tim. 2:6) means that the death of the Lord Jesus Christ is prepared for all men to apply; it does not mean that the Lord died on behalf of all men. When the Bible refers to all or all men, it only uses on behalf of (substitution). This means that the provision of the Lord's death is available to all men so that all men will have a chance to be saved. But when the Bible refers to the believers, it uses both for as well as on behalf of. Therefore, the death of the Lord Jesus is most righteous.

At least ransom and substitution (in the Biblical sense) comes together in harmony.

CHeers!