Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Bump Topic Topic Closed RSS Feed
10 Pages < 1 2 3 4 5 > » Bottom

Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+

 Military Thread V27

views
     
MilitaryMadness
post Sep 24 2019, 04:10 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


QUOTE(azriel @ Sep 24 2019, 01:43 PM)
Yes he is the Indonesian Army Chief.
*
I think really buff pipul not that suited for military. Looks impressive but not that useful for military duties. Better wiry pipul with very high stamina.

For one thing you need a lot of food to maintain that muscle mass. A month's field exercise feeding on rations would shrink back a guy like that. laugh.gif


MilitaryMadness
post Sep 24 2019, 04:21 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


Karnival Hari ATM 2019

user posted image

Hari terbuka ATM akan diadakan di Pangkalan TLDM Lumut pada 28 & 29 September 2019. Panglima ATM, Jeneral Tan Sri Zulkifli Zainal Abidin, berkata menerusi karnival itu, orang ramai berpeluang melihat secara lebih dekat perkhidmatan sektor pertahanan merangkumi aset darat, laut dan udara.

“Pelbagai acara akan diadakan sempena hari terbuka itu yang pasti memberi peluang kepada orang ramai menyaksikan persembahan hebat membabitkan ketenteraan selain pelbagai aktiviti menarik seperti pameran aset tentera, ‘eco-challenge’ dan promosi kerja ATM.

“Kita juga mengambil kesempatan ini untuk menjadikan ia sebagai platform ATM untuk lebih mendekati dengan orang ramai selari dengan tema tahun ini.

“ATM amat mengalukan-alukan kedatangan rakyat Malaysia bagi memeriahkan lagi sambutan Karnival Hari ATM 2019,” katanya kepada BH, hari ini.

MilitaryMadness
post Oct 4 2019, 10:26 AM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


QUOTE(Lampuajaib @ Oct 3 2019, 11:27 PM)
And that apply to air defence missile too?
If hitting a 100++ metres long ship is not as easy as we think then how about hitting an incoming missile by air defence missile?
*
I think the usual practice is to engage a target when it is inside 2/3 of the maximum range of any guided weaponry. This is to take into account any maneuvering the missile has to do to hit its target.

Literally nobody will shoot at a target at a guided weapon's maximum range. The enemy dodges it once and the guided weapon won't have enough energy left to re-engage and just fall to the ground.

Remember, the max range of a missile is what it is capable of reaching, not its effective range. The farther away the target is, the more time they will have to evade or counter the missile.


MilitaryMadness
post Oct 4 2019, 10:47 AM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


APMM usir kapal pengawal pantai Vietnam ganggu operasi penahanan nelayan penceroboh

user posted image

PUTRAJAYA, 20 SEPT – Agensi Penguatkuasaan Maritim Malaysia telah mengusir keluar kapal penguatkuasa Vietnam Fisheries Resources Surveillance KN 205 yang telah mengganggu aset Maritim Malaysia iaitu KM Langkawi ketika menjalankan tugas, menahan sebuah bot nelayan asing Vietnam KG 95857 TS, yang menceroboh perairan Malaysia untuk merompak hasil laut negara di kedudukan kira-kira 167 batu nautika timur laut Tg Mat Amin, Terengganu lebih kurang jam 9.48 pagi pada 18 September lalu.

Dalam kejadian pada pagi 18 Sep lalu, kapal Penguatkuasa Vietnam terbabit telah cuba menghalang anggota penguatkuasa Maritim Malaysia dengan cuba menghimpit bot tahanan selain membuat pusingan berbahaya dihadapan KM Langkawi.

Namun cubaan mereka gagal apabila KM Langkawi berjaya menghalang mereka daripada merapati bot tahanan yang sedang dikawal untuk dibawa pulang bagi siasatan lanjut.

Pihak Maritim Malaysia telah memaklumkan insiden tersebut kepada kepada Wisma Putra.

Maritim Malaysia juga telah menghubungi Penasihat Pertahanan Vietnam untuk mengadakan perbincangan bagi menangani insiden yang berlaku dengan kadar segera pada hari ini, malangnya beliau tidak dapat hadir dan hanya akan bertemu wakil dari Bahagian Operasi Maritim Malaysia pada minggu hadapan.

Pada mulanya, kapal penguatkuasa Vietnam itu meminta agar KM Langkawi melepaskan bot nelayan mereka daripada ditahan, namun KM Langkawi tidak memenuhi permintaan mereka berikutan bot nelayan berkenaan telah melakukan kesalahan yang berat iaitu menceroboh perairan Terengganu untuk merompak hasil laut Malaysia, dan telah mengarahkan kapal tersebut keluar dari perairan negara.

Bot nelayan terbabit bersama tiga nelayan termasuk tekong warga Vietnam ditahan dan turut dirampas diesel anggaran 9,000 liter serta peralatan menangkap ikan dan kesemuanya dianggarkan bernilai RM700,000.

Bot dan semua kru Vietnam tersebut telah dibawa masuk ke Jeti Zon Maritim Kemaman jam 6 petang pada 19 September dan kes disiasat di bawah Seksyen 15(1)(a) Akta Perikanan 1985 kerana bot beroperasi tanpa lesen yang sah dikeluarkan oleh Jabatan Perikanan, dan juga Seksyen 6 (1) ©, Akta Imigresen kerana tidak memiliki dokumen pengenalan diri yang sah.

Maritim Malaysia akan meneruskanoperasi bagi membanteras kegiatan pencerobohan nelayan asing khususnya dari Vietnam. Sejak 2006 hingga kini, Maritim Malaysia telah berjaya menahan 1272 bot nelayan asing dengan jumlah kru yang ditahan sebanyak 10,408 orang. Dari jumlah tersebut, sebanyak 784 buah bot merupakan bot nelayan Vietnam dengan jumlah kru yang ditahan seramai 7399. Nilai rampasan keseluruhan bot nelayan asing sejak 2006 dianggarkan berjumlah RM1.2 bilion.

sos

MilitaryMadness
post Oct 4 2019, 12:38 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


QUOTE(Fat & Fluffy @ Oct 4 2019, 11:44 AM)
perairan Malaysia = territorial sea / eez?
*
Fishing activities extend inside EEZ also. This is because fishing is also considered economic exploitation of the EEZ.

If you are fishing inside another country's EEZ, you're trespassing.

MilitaryMadness
post Oct 11 2019, 12:04 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


QUOTE(ayanami_tard @ Oct 11 2019, 11:58 AM)
staged attack to boost popularity?
*
Haish nowadays everybody doing false flag attacks, when people do get attacked for real everybody will also accuse of doing false flag attack. rolleyes.gif

MilitaryMadness
post Oct 11 2019, 12:08 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


Wah who else can't wait for announcement of Budget 2020 this later afternoon? icon_idea.gif

I for one don't put that much hope in an increased defence expenditure though, I guess the gov think they got bigger issues on hand.

MilitaryMadness
post Oct 11 2019, 12:32 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


QUOTE(EBBattlefield @ Oct 11 2019, 12:29 PM)
I heard that the Egyptians couldn't service their Mistrals and are willing to selling to LTZ.
LGE gonna pay 50 bucks for it  whistling.gif
*
Kalau egypt pun x boleh manage, dapat kat kita Mistral tu jadi tukun tiruan la. laugh.gif

MilitaryMadness
post Oct 11 2019, 01:08 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


QUOTE(zacky chan @ Oct 11 2019, 12:47 PM)
since most of big things for ATM(MPA,UAV and other) was under next RMK, we can really expect same as always bro....

my only hope this budget will be more money on upgrade the fleet such as c130,adnan and MIFV recap program, our NCO and so on....its not big but things been put off for long now....

also hope good news for MMEA getting another batch of NGPC or any type of new ship....
*
On a related matter, APMM has decided that they will continue the convention of naming their large vessels after Royal state towns, starting from KM Pekan and KM Arau and continuing to the Damen 1800 OPVs.

user posted image

The three new vessels thus will be named KM Kota Bharu, KM Kuala Kangsar and KM Seri Menanti. The first of the OPVs will be launched before the end of 2019, with the entire class expected to be in full service by the year 2022.

MilitaryMadness
post Oct 14 2019, 10:28 AM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


Kepala Bakamla RI Terima Kunjungan Kehormatan Ketua Pengarah APMM

user posted image

Kepala Bakamla RI Laksamana Madya Bakamla A. Taufiq R. menyambut hangat kunjungan kehormatan Ketua Pengarah Agensi Penguatkuasaan Maritim Malaysia (APMM) Laksamana Maritim Dato’ Mohd Zubil bin Mat Som, di Markas Besar Bakamla RI, Gedung Perintis Kemerdekaan, Jalan Proklamasi No. 56, Menteng, Jakarta Pusat, kemarin.

Jajar kehormatan para Ksatria Bakamla RI memberikan penghormatan atas kedatangan Ketua APMM beserta anggota delegasi yang terdiri dari Pengarah Bahagian Keselamatan dan Pengawasan Maritim Laksamana Muda Maritim Dato’ Abu Bakar Bin Idris, Pengarah Bahagian Perisikan Kepten Maritim Rosli Bin Abdullah, dan Ketua Penolong Pengarah Bahagian Penguatkuasaan dan Penyelarasan Maritim Kepten Maritim Nurul Hizam Bin Zakaria.

Hubungan dekat kedua institusi Coast Guard itu terlihat dari sambutan penuh persaudaraan yang berlangsung di halaman Mabes Bakamla RI, yang merupakan kunjungan balasan atas kunjungan kehormatan Laksdya Taufiq ke Kantor Pusat APMM, One IOI Square, Putrajaya, Malaysia hampir setahun silam, tepatnya pada 21 Desember 2018. Perbincangan pimpinan tertinggi kedua institusi yang mengemban fungsi Coast Guard itu berlanjut di aula untuk membahas keamanan maritim yang melibatkan kedua negara.

Dikatakan oleh Kepala Bakamla, secara kekinian Coast Guard yang berperan sebagai Penegak Hukum yang lebih soft. “ Saya dibantu para perwira Gakkum, sejak kepemimpinan saya semua kepangkatan menggunakan Bakamla, ujarnya. Lebih lanjut dikatakannya, Bakamla melaksanakan operasi militer tapi bukan perang, yang menghasilkan output tegaknya hukum dan outcome keamanan laut.

Senada dengan yang dikatakan Laksdya Taufiq, Ketua Pengarah APMM mengatakan, kunjungan ke Bakamla diantaranya membawa mandat untuk meningkatkan kerja sama yang berfokus pada operasi, karena sedikit persinggungan di lapangan dapat menjadi masalah besar, katanya, yang mana hubungan telah terjalin baik antara APMM dengan Bakamla. Dijelaskannya pula, APMM membawa kebudayaan yang mengedepankan sebagai penolong dan pelindung masyarakat, dan mengutamakan kebudayaan santun, tidak arogan dan pendekatan yang soft.

Menutup pembicaraan tersebut, kedua pimpinan menganggap perlunya tindak lanjut kerja sama yang lebih konkret antara Bakamla - APMM dalam rangka menjaga hubungan baik kedua instansi yang telah lama terjalin.

sos


MilitaryMadness
post Oct 14 2019, 03:38 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


Second APMM maritime complex in Sarawak to start construction in 2020

user posted image

The construction of the second administrative complex of the Malaysian Maritime Enforcement Agency (MMEA) in Sarawak is expected to start in 2020.

Sarawak Maritime Director, First Maritime Admiral Robert Teh Geok Chuan said the tender for the construction of the administrative complex had been closed and was awaiting the decision by the Home Ministry.

"The project is expected to be completed next year involving the construction of an administrative complex and and jetty on Pulau Melayu," he told reporters after the launch of the Sarex Camar 2/2019 programme here today.

Earlier, the media had reported on the proposed construction of the administrative complex in 2015 on a two-acre plot of land on Pulau Melayu, identified as the location for strengthening Maritime operations in northern Sarawak.

MMEA Sarawak currently has only one administrative complex and quarters called the Tun Abang Salahuddin Maritime Complex (KOMTAS) at Muara Tebas, 30km from Kuching city.

On the Sarex Camar 2/2019 programme, he said it was a joint exercise with industries such as aviation, oil and gas.

"The MMEA acts as the leader of a search and rescue operation with the cooperation of Shell, Petronas and the aviation industry authority," he said.

He said the MMEA had set a one-hour response period to move assets to the scene of any maritime incident after a report was lodged.

sos


MilitaryMadness
post Oct 16 2019, 10:31 AM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


QUOTE(zacky chan @ Oct 16 2019, 01:32 AM)
Local military police in Brazil, estate of Pará, inside the Amazon. Using buffalos to patrol because the can outrun criminals in rivers and swampy terrain[/B]
user posted image[B]
saw on reddit.... ohmy.gif
*
Stuff like this is pretty common. If you need to operate or patrol in less-than-optimal terrain you need to use what is most suitable there. Even today the PLA uses Yaks as mounts to patrol the high mountain regions in its western territories as no other animal is as good as a Yak in high altitudes.

user posted image

MilitaryMadness
post Oct 16 2019, 10:40 AM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


Locally Developed Weapons

user posted image
Malaysian Army soldiers firing an 81mm mortar

SHAH ALAM: The Science & Technology Research Institute For Defence (STRIDE) is collaborating with the armed forces and the National Defence University of Malaysia (UPNM) to develop a 12.7mm sniper rifle and a 120mm mortar. Defence Minister Mohamad Sabu told Parliament today said both weapons were still under the prototype stage and under development.

He said the prototype of the weapons would be handed over to the armed forces and selected security agencies for testing and evaluation. “Once the testing and evaluation is completed and it is found to be suitable for the end users it will be offered to a chosen defence company for manufacturing and marketing,” he said when responding to oral questions at the Dewan Rakyat. He did not revealed at what stage is the development of the sniper rifle and 120mm mortar.

Mohamad said the ministry will find ways to ensure that the local defence industry remain relevant and to reduce the dependancy on foreign arms manufacturers.

For the 12.7mm or .50 caliber rifles, the Army and the police are currently using the Barret .50 caliber rifles and one has to wonder if there is a need for a locally developed one. That said Indonesian state owned arms manufacturer Pindad has already produced a 12.7mm sniper rifle so that’s probably the inspiration. Anyhow, as you are aware that the army has a small number of 120mm mortars, integrated with the Adnan and Gempita APCs. These are the Thales 120mm Rifled recoiled Mounted Mortar (2R2M) system. Infact the Army has more 81mm mortars in service compared to the mounted 120mm system.

The fact that they choose a 120mm system to be develop is a probably that they think the Army should be equipped with a longer range system for its units. Typically a 120mm mortar has a range of 200 meters to 7,200 meters compared to the 81mm, with a range of 70 meters to 6,500 meters.

However, most modern 120mm mortars are now towed as they are too heavy to be lug around especially with the shell typically weighing around 14kg compared 4.15kg for the smaller 81mm mortars.

If indeed the locally developed 120mm mortar is put into service it is likely to be towed, leaving the 81mm and 60mm mortars with specialised units like the GGK and the 10th Para Brigade. It is unclear whether the Army actually wants these.

Courtesy of Malaysiandefence.com.

thumbup.gif



MilitaryMadness
post Oct 17 2019, 09:55 AM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


STRIDE tingkat industri pertahanan negara

user posted image

KUALA LUMPUR: Kebergantungan negara kepada kelengkapan pertahanan yang diimport dapat dikurangkan dalam tempoh lima tahun lagi menerusi langkah pengkomersialan ciptaan inovasi tempatan.

Ketua Pengarah Institut Penyelidikan Sains dan Teknologi Pertahanan (STRIDE), Dr Mohmad Asri Abd Ghani, berkata negara sudah mempunyai kemampuan untuk menyediakan kelengkapan pertahanan untuk Angkatan Tentera Malaysia (ATM) dan pasukan bersenjata lain.

Beliau berkata, potensi perniagaan dalam bidang ini amat tinggi kerana ketika ini negara membelanjakan sekitar RM12 bilion hingga RM15 bilion setahun untuk kelengkapan pertahanan.

Sehubungan itu, Hari Pemadanan Perniagaan 2019 akan diadakan di Kompleks Induk STRIDE Kajang, Kementerian Pertahanan, pada 23 Oktober dan 24 Oktober ini.

"Platform ini adalah peluang bukan sahaja kepada kementerian dan agensi kerajaan malah kepada pemain industri tempatan, universiti dan inovator merebut peluang mengetengahkan produk inovasi untuk dikomersialkan.

"Selama ini kita bergantung kepada produk luar dan ini tidak memberi pulangan kepada negara. Jika kita asyik import sahaja, wang bernilai berbilion dialirkan ke luar negara sedangkan sektor ini boleh menjana pendapatan kepada negara,” katanya ketika ditemui semasa kunjungan beliau ke Balai Berita di sini, hari ini.

Terdahulu, Dr Mohmad Asri bersama timbalannya, Dr Mohd Yazid Ahmad, serta delegasi STRIDE, Kementerian Pertahanan dan ATM mengadakan pertemuan dengan Pengarang Kumpulan BH, Khaidir A Majid.

STRIDE yang ditubuhkan 51 tahun lalu kini mempunyai lebih 100 pegawai dan kepakaran dalam bidang persenjataan maritim, perang siber, oseanografi dan aeroangkasa.

Jabatan di bawah Kementerian Pertahanan itu melaksanakan program penyelidikan dan pembangunan serta sokongan khidmat teknikal, nasihat pakar dan konsultansi kepada ATM dan industri pertahanan tempatan.

Antara produk inovasi yang dihasilkan STRIDE adalah 'Water Hydration Backpack' atau beg galas penghidratan yang boleh digunakan sebagai bekalan air minuman semasa operasi; rompi kalis peluru tahan lasak yang direka supaya mudah diubahsuai serta mampu memberikan perlindungan optimum dan kebebasan bergerak yang maksimum.

Turut dibangunkan STRIDE adalah ‘Aerostat and Airship Based Surveillance System' iaitu sistem pemantauan dan pengawasan dari udara dilengkapi kamera dan peralatan audio yang sesuai untuk pengawasan maritim serta sempadan, keselamatan dalam negeri, isikan komunikasi, penghantaran data dan fotografi dari udara.

Susulan tragedi pesawat MH370 dan MH17, STRIDE menubuhkan Makmal Kotak Hitam pada 2017 yang menepati standard antarabangsa dan berupaya menganalisis kotak hitam pesawat jika ada keperluan.

sos

hmm.gif

MilitaryMadness
post Oct 17 2019, 02:19 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


QUOTE(KLthinker91 @ Oct 17 2019, 12:30 PM)
As far as military operations go, the 6 Day War was one of the most overwhelmingly successful in history, in some ways surpassing the 300 Spartans' stand (since, yknow, they actually won).
*
So sad that modern history only remembers the 300 Spartans, but neglects the 10,000 other forces from other Greek city-states who also helped defend the pass earlier during the battle.

Even the last stand depicted after the defenders were surrounded should have shown 700 Thespians and 400 Thebans who stayed even when Leonidas ordered all other forces to leave. Heck even non-hoplite Spartan light troops who also stayed and died numbered nearly 1000 already. But noooo only the 300 are celebrated.

I blame that on the movie. Obvious Spartan propaganda. laugh.gif




MilitaryMadness
post Oct 17 2019, 03:23 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


QUOTE(KLthinker91 @ Oct 17 2019, 02:37 PM)
it's really ghey propaganda brows.gif

my guess is that the Spartans contributed so much to the battle, and the allies are mainly light infantry

even long afterward into Roman times, the heavy infantry Roman legionary was considered the most important and decisive soldier on the battlefield

and later on it was knights... and then tanks...
*
Actually the numbers I said earlier (400 Thespians and 700 Thebans) are those of hoplite heavy infantry. Most historians can't really say how many light troops were present. Light troops such as skirmishers or archers are usually absent from historical accounts in ancient times. If a number is given it is usually of the Hoplites only.

But it was noted that ancient Greek armies usually went on their campaigns with each Hoplite bringing 3-4 personal servants and retainers who also acted as light troops and skirmishers during the fighting itself.

This, together with any volunteer non-citizen Spartans who either are equipped as light troops or in support roles (only full citizens can be equipped as Hoplites), the total number of soldiers from Sparta itself would probably be around 2000 already.

But of course, keep worshipping the 300 Spartan (Hoplites). laugh.gif



MilitaryMadness
post Oct 17 2019, 04:06 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


QUOTE(KLthinker91 @ Oct 17 2019, 03:35 PM)
depends on the sources, and really we have very few sources actually

and the Spartan hoplites were glorified not just for their martial skill, but also for their fight to the death
*
In contrast, due to Spartans being so famous, more study is done on their society and thus we know more about them than many other city-states.

Spartans had so much time to practice military skills because all the work was done by Helot serfs. The Spartan hoplites were the type of citizens that was known as the 'leisure class'. They literally had no work to do because all of economic and agricultural work was done by Helots and they only have to reap the profits.

Besides raw military skill, the practice of all citizens having to live together in barracks until the age of 60 also fostered brotherhood, cooperation and solidarity among the Spartan hoplites (arguably far more important than raw military skill). This is in contrast to other city-states whose citizen hoplites are derived from all walks of life and usually had very little idea of military skill & tactics other than standing in a line, covering yourself with a shield and try to stab the enemy with your spear.

Also the great wealth gained by citizens from the work of the Helots also made Sparta able to afford excellent, uniform equipment and armor unseen in Greece at the time. Other city-states' Hoplites most of the time use a hodgepodge of armor and equipment usually passed down the family. Often the sight of Sparta's uniform, well drilled army is enough to intimidate and convince opponents to come to terms and avoid fighting.

Lastly, regarding fighting to the death, ancient Greek warfare is very much harsh and pitiless. The concept of 'prisoner-of-war' was pretty much non-existent. A defeated army can expect to be massacred to the last man, so there were not much to be gained by running away. The majority of losses during a hoplite battle occurs when the opposing line breaks and those running away are cut down by pursuing light troops.

In many cases, making a last stand to the death is preferable than trying to run away and end up getting killed by a peasant skirmisher. There are very many cases of ancient Greek armies fighting to the death, not just Spartans, as the usually the alternative is not only possibly being cut down during the rout, but even if one survives he can expect to be shamed and ostracized as a coward from his peers at home.


MilitaryMadness
post Oct 18 2019, 08:40 AM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


QUOTE(KLthinker91 @ Oct 17 2019, 04:30 PM)
Not really

We have very few sources. All of what we know about Thermopylae comes from Herodotus, and only a handful of other authors. That's not a lot of people.

Spartans were not "leisure class". They were almost full time soldiers, and trained harder and longer than the soldiers of other civilisations and other Greeks. This specialisation is the core of what gave them military dominance... but only on land.

Their wealth is more likely due to being more successful in wars and thus having more political power to dictate reparations and dominate trade. (Much like any superpower.) However the Spartan system - or rather, what we know of it, see again point 1 about few sources - is quite extreme and unsustainable, leading eventually to their downfall.

Actually ancient Greek warfare between city-states was not harsh and more ritualistic, moreso than many other ancient and medieval wars. The Greeks had a certain sense of brotherhood amongst the warring city-states. Once there was a clear winner, they would allow the defeated army to retreat, and then dictate terms. On the losing side, they generally expected to honour the terms and accept the defeat, even if only temporarily.

Last stands to the death were remarkable enough that certain states including the Spartans were noted for it, but weren't common.

Thermopylae in a way marked the turning point from this kind of "frenemy" warfare because they were fighting an existential threat for the first time. After that war became more brutal, and tactics changed accordingly.
*
This is very much the popular culture depiction of Spartans.

For one thing, many other later historians studied Spartan history and culture starting from Roman times up to the 19th century. So it was better well known than most other Greek city-states. These historians regard Sparta as the perfect embodiment of civilization, a militarily strong and independent state. Sparta was the subject of fascination in its own day, as well as in Western culture following the revival of classical learning. There is even a term for this: "Laconism" or "Laconophilia".

Secondly, there was no such thing as 'full time soldiers' during the period. Sparta, as of all of Greece, relied on a civilian militia as a military force. However due to certain factors Sparta was able to gain an early advantage over other city-states.

1) The caste system practiced by Sparta in which citizen Spartans are forbidden to engage in commerce or manual labor created a large 'leisure class' which had free time to pursue its own aims, without having be occupied by long work hours. However Spartans still managed the city and did administrative jobs, working as clerks, civil servants and magistrates. This also made them able to coherently train themselves in warfare compared to other city-states, where the citizen hoplites were usually drawn from all classes and had practically no formal military training. The freedom from work also gave the Spartan citizen Hoplites the ability to campaign nearly all-year round, while other city-states needed to disband their forces each harvest season or risk economic disaster from unharvested crops. This is a huge advantage.

2) Sparta had a large number of citizens able to be equipped as Hoplites due to all citizens being a leisure class. During its peak in around 500 bc, Sparta could field around 8,000 citizen Hoplites from a population of around 50,000. Although Athens may have a population of around 500,000-600,000 at the same period, the majority of the population are not citizens and full Athenian citizens only numbered around 5,000. It should be noted that in Ancient Greece, only full citizens have the privilege to serve as Hoplites. Again, this combined with the fact that without the obligation to disband the Spartan army for harvest season and able to campaign all year round gave the Spartans a huge advantage in conflict against its rivals.

However, the Spartan caste system eventually precipitated the Spartan's decline downfall.

1) Only the families and descendents of the original founders of Sparta can be a Spartan citizen, and thus a Spartan Hoplite. The rigid military training caused Spartan citizens to marry late (men could only marry from the age of 30) and have few children, keeping the population low. There are also many laws that could demote a Spartan citizen into a lower class resident, such as if a citizen is unable to pay their contribution to their own barrack's mess. However, to keep lower class Perekoi and Helots from gaining citizenship, there are virtually no laws that could reinstate a demoted citizen, so a demotion is usually permanent for a citizen.

2) Spartan citizens, as leisure-class landowners, made their wealth through their lands. A citizen is entitled to 50% of the profits from the Perikoi and Helot working a citizen's own lands. In the early period, where everyone had a decently-sized land, they made a lot of wealth that afforded better equipment and armor. However, as time went by these plots of lands keep getting fragmented by splitting it to a citizen's sons when he died (daughters don't get inheritance). Thus the income of the land to each landowner keeps fragmenting and shrinking with each generation. Thus Sparta became poorer with each generation.

3) Many of the Spartans' militaristic culture is derived from the need to oppress the Helot class and prevent a Helot uprising. The helots are state-owned serfs that worked a Spartan citizens' land permanently. However, due the low population numbers of Spartan citizens, the number of Helots keep growing as they had no restrictions of family life compared to the citizens. In time, the imbalance of citizens and Helots grew to a dangerous degree and revolts became much more common.




MilitaryMadness
post Oct 18 2019, 12:23 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


QUOTE(KLthinker91 @ Oct 18 2019, 11:41 AM)
But we basically only have 1 or 2 key sources for Spartan society. So really, if you want to challenge the "popular view", then you are left with very little alternative views.
*
Most of our sources for the Spartan culture are written by outsiders, as Sparta's culture does not lend itself to the development of an academic culture. Some are written by critics and some are written by admirers. Thus exaggerations and propaganda will be a part of the narrative.

However, if you are curious in 'alternative views' on the Spartans. Try and go through these and tell me what you think :

sos

sos

MilitaryMadness
post Oct 18 2019, 03:46 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,302 posts

Joined: Oct 2010
From: Over your shoulder


QUOTE(KLthinker91 @ Oct 18 2019, 01:13 PM)
Yes, that is what I mean when I say we have a limited number of primary sources to draw from.

I can get that book, I'll put it on my reading list  icon_rolleyes.gif
*
Here's another good discussion on the supposed invincibility of the Spartans

sos


10 Pages < 1 2 3 4 5 > » Top
Topic ClosedOptions
 

Change to:
| Lo-Fi Version
0.1116sec    0.62    7 queries    GZIP Disabled
Time is now: 11th December 2025 - 06:40 PM