Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Bump Topic Topic Closed RSS Feed

Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+

> Vivian Balakrishnan remarks that Malaysia-, -Singapore water deal is "morally wrong"

views
     
wanted111who
post Mar 3 2019, 10:09 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
535 posts

Joined: Apr 2012
QUOTE(Mai189 @ Mar 3 2019, 09:43 PM)
Well I do not know what is morally wrong about keeping to your part of the agreement. Lol. Do not listen to Tun too much. Heed my advice. He is an opportunistic politician. May allah and especially the people whom he offended all this while forgive him.

Let's say you rent a room at say 5 myr per day and there is a signed agreement between you and the landlord. Obviously, you will seek to maintain the rent at 5 myr. It is a totally different thing if the landlord inserted a clause stating that the price will go up several months down the road.
*
Tun isn't going to live forever, but the water deal will laugh.gif and an agreement without exit clause, without price increments/adjustment due inflation, without clause to renegotiate, is it still applicable in today's agreement standard? Is it morally right? What so if one of the direct party is not happy with the agreement.

Don't misunderstand what I mean, we aren't asking for things which aren't us, we are just asking for things which we deserves.

Let say you're the landlord, are you going to rent the room at 5 myr for 10 years? 20 years? 50 years? You know it's impossible right? We arent asking for 1 dollar, just 14 cent myr and you admit that SG can very well afford it.

I think we should put a stop on SG leeching on MY resources to make themselves wealthier. From manpower, raw resources to controlling Malacca Strait.

This post has been edited by wanted111who: Mar 3 2019, 10:10 PM
wanted111who
post Mar 3 2019, 10:14 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
535 posts

Joined: Apr 2012
QUOTE(Faidzal @ Mar 3 2019, 10:10 PM)
kesian tak baca any of my explanation.

or didn't realise it cost RM2.40 to Singapore to treat 1,000 gallon of raw water that Johor got for only RM0.50....

so Singapore lose RM1.90 for every 1,000 gallon that they sell to Johor.

BTW, here's some enlightenment:

1. johor never exported raw water to Singapore and Singapore never imported raw water from johor.

2. all water that flow thru those pipes you see at the causeway are treated water and not raw water.

the water flow only 1 way (from johor to Singapore)

3. all raw water that Singapore collect go to their water treatment plant located in Johor. you can see one of such previously owned by Singapore water treatment plants beside the road at jalan skudai, just before the exit to UTM skudai.

now that plant is owned by ranhill as the lease expired with the end of the 1st agreement back in 2011.

but the kampung that the previous staff of the plants stayed nearby has always been called kampung PUB (public utilities board, the name of Singapore's water utility company).
*
Thanks for your explanation, then it's better for johor not selling it at raw water price, straight selling it as treated water to Singapore right? It make much more sense that way.

wanted111who
post Mar 3 2019, 10:23 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
535 posts

Joined: Apr 2012
QUOTE(Faidzal @ Mar 3 2019, 10:19 PM)
kesian x faham.

what mleemlee232 is saying is that the water Singapore sold to us for RM0.50 per 1k gallon costs RM7.20 to Singapore.

it's Singapore that are losing money selling treated water to johor.

but no one from Johor will admit this publicly bcos then it will open a huge can of worms...
*
If so, no need for them to sell at lost to us and subsidise us. We treat it from our end and selling it to them @ X% of the rate of what they will sell to their consumer.
wanted111who
post Mar 3 2019, 10:30 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
535 posts

Joined: Apr 2012
QUOTE(ujayucho @ Mar 3 2019, 10:23 PM)
But there was a 1987 provision for price review n none other than Dr M himself chose not to review😡 the reason is because SG paid hundreds of million of dollars to build water treatment plant. 

Alot of Malaysians dun know abt this as Dr M n MY media kept radio silence over this.  I hope i m not leaking state secrets😟

Imagine if we go to court,  judge will surely look at the SG investment cost as a factor to consider.  But in any case,  we lost our right to review in 1987 liao😡
*
1987 is 30 years ago, who's paying the maintainance for the plant? Also we didn't charge SG the cost of treated water since they help with water treatment plant. We are selling as raw waters for 30 years since 87 no?
wanted111who
post Mar 3 2019, 10:44 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
535 posts

Joined: Apr 2012
QUOTE(ujayucho @ Mar 3 2019, 10:35 PM)
SG paying maintenance costs for the plant that supplied treated water to Johor since 1987.

Thot it is clear that SG is subsiding Johor. Thats why Johor continue to rely on SG.  johor din hv to lift a finger n treated water will be sold at 50 sen to them (when actual cost is S$2.40) n above contracted quantity in the agreement.
*
Yup, that's tongkat, no need do anything money coming in. I think it's time for johor to buy back the plant or building their own plant and start treating water on their own. Nothing good coming from tongkat and if we are to work on it is better.

We see no problem for Selangor doing so (treating own water)
wanted111who
post Mar 3 2019, 10:48 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
535 posts

Joined: Apr 2012
QUOTE(Faidzal @ Mar 3 2019, 10:42 PM)
the deal is Singapore buy raw water not treated water.

but when deal is signed Singapore didn't have land for treatment plant.

land in johor cheaper then.

besides treating water for Singapore's use, they also treat the water for Johor's use.

that was the deal.

the deal signed has provisions whereby the plants that Singapore build will be handed over to johor once deal lapses.

as mentioned many times Singapore already gave johor the 1st water treatment plant built under the 1st agreement that lapsed in 2011.

johor in turn gave rights to operate that water treatment plant and sell water to crony company ranhill…

whistling.gif  whistling.gif  whistling.gif
*
Means now we are paying for the plant maintaince fees since 2011? Walao , really no free meal from sg. We are paying them 250mgd -16mgd raw treated water, paying them rm500 everyday and still need to pay to maintain the treatment plant?

wanted111who
post Mar 3 2019, 10:54 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
535 posts

Joined: Apr 2012
QUOTE(Faidzal @ Mar 3 2019, 10:51 PM)
that one is bcos syabas never replaced their old pipes.

besides that's what you get from free or cheap water  whistling.gif  whistling.gif  whistling.gif
*
Well we can sell it @ 40 cent to SG, it's their problem the treated water isn't up to their standard. It fits our standard. What do you think? whistling.gif
wanted111who
post Mar 3 2019, 10:56 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
535 posts

Joined: Apr 2012
QUOTE(aniaaw325 @ Mar 3 2019, 10:48 PM)
Then what is Dr M barking about?

He was the PM that chose not to review in 1987.

He purposely din build water treatment plant in Johor.
*
He not review it @87 doesn't mean he can't review it in future. Your landlord doesn't increase the rental @ years ago doesn't mean he can't review the rental next year.
wanted111who
post Mar 3 2019, 11:25 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
535 posts

Joined: Apr 2012
QUOTE(Faidzal @ Mar 3 2019, 10:59 PM)
hello my friend?

you got comprehension problem?

johor doesn't pay any money to Singapore for the treated water la.

the amount they buy from us is bigger than the amount we are buying from them.

it's net loss to Singapore.
*
The amount they buy from us is high but the amount we charge them is lesser, way lesser.
wanted111who
post Mar 3 2019, 11:54 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
535 posts

Joined: Apr 2012
QUOTE(Faidzal @ Mar 3 2019, 11:26 PM)
I bet you suck at math.
*
Your math is good? Then help answer 3 simple math questions below.

How much is the total cost for 250 million gallon selling rate at 3 cent / thousand gallon

How much is the total cost for 16 million gallon of water with selling rate of 50 cent / thousand gallon?

Which one is higher per above?

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


This post has been edited by wanted111who: Mar 4 2019, 12:14 AM
wanted111who
post Mar 3 2019, 11:58 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
535 posts

Joined: Apr 2012
QUOTE(aniaaw325 @ Mar 3 2019, 11:33 PM)
Thats because Malaysia din lift a single finger😡

SG build, pay n maintain all the water infrastructure n will be handing over to Johor in working condition upon expiry of agt.  1st one handed in 2011 liao.  Go google.
*
I know and we will be paying the maintainance fees of the treatment plant after the handover. You catch the deal? See short terms we getting free treatment plant, try see long term. We maintaining it+ selling water at lower rate

Also there are side deal with petronas in exchange of SG helping us building the treatment plant.

In a nutshell there are no free lunch given by Singapore, we are at lost again and again.

I post the link earlier. Try look for it.

This post has been edited by wanted111who: Mar 4 2019, 12:00 AM
wanted111who
post Mar 4 2019, 12:17 AM

On my way
****
Junior Member
535 posts

Joined: Apr 2012
QUOTE(weissPC @ Mar 4 2019, 12:09 AM)
Bro, you read or not?

The cost of treating the water is a few times higher than the 50 cents Singapore is charging Malaysia, it's not selling price, it's cost of subsidy and if people build infra for you what's wrong of you paying maintenance because you already untung by not paying for the infra.

I really suspect your maths and comprehension. Malaysian to a Malaysian.
*
Don't care about the cost of treating the water. Bro you admit it yourself, sg is going to transfer the plant ownership to us in the future.
We are to pay for its maintainance fees, so you think SG maintainance fees and costs is going to remain as it is forever?
Our selling price is, if we don't do anything about it now.

Do you even have any ability to analyze the future? When all plant is given to Malaysia? Who's paying to maintaining it?

No wonder it's so easy for SG to milk Malaysia, the sight is so short. Long term advantage or disadvantage also dunno?

This post has been edited by wanted111who: Mar 4 2019, 12:22 AM
wanted111who
post Mar 4 2019, 12:41 AM

On my way
****
Junior Member
535 posts

Joined: Apr 2012
QUOTE(aniaaw325 @ Mar 4 2019, 12:22 AM)
Agreed.

Really hope no sinkies reading this.

They will die of laughing 😁
*
indeed I agree, SG will definitely laugh at us.

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Summary
Sg -My 24 November 1990 agreement- agreements would expire in 2061

Singapore to build a dam across Sungei Linggiu to facilitate the extraction of water from the Johor River

Singapore would compensate Johor RM$320 million for the land needed to build the dam and its surrounding facilities. This was in addition to a premium of RM18,000 per ha (per 10,000 sq m) and an annual rent of RM30 for every 1,000 sq ft (per 92.9 sq m) of the land.

Singapore would also bear the cost of constructing and maintaining the dam, which would be transferred to Johor at a later date

Together with the water agreement signed, there was also another agreement signed with Malaysian oil company Petronas that secured the supply of 150 million cu ft (about 4.2 million cu m) of natural gas from Terengganu to Singapore.

So stupid is Malaysian, got milked like a cow still feeling grateful because they are feeding us fodder.


QUOTE(weissPC @ Mar 4 2019, 12:24 AM)
You tell that to the court of arbitration that you ignore the cost of treating water, can ah?

Like a Singaporean said, make a win-win agreement, we're  complimentary economies, we need each other to win, and you're thinking about maintenance cost when the bigger picture is China, and potentially all the sea trade bypassing us thru Myanmar direct to China.
*
Above article sure is a win to sg. Because got stupid people who see 310 million sgd owai.. Its myr, can feed us forever.

Cancelling 1 hsr project already cost us double or triple of 310 million myr.

This post has been edited by wanted111who: Mar 4 2019, 12:45 AM
wanted111who
post Mar 4 2019, 03:05 AM

On my way
****
Junior Member
535 posts

Joined: Apr 2012
QUOTE(Faidzal @ Mar 4 2019, 02:25 AM)
did you factor in the cost for Singapore to treat 1000 gallon of raw water?

of course you didn't bcos you didn't read any of the other replies as well.

ok la I humour you

1. answer is 7500 = A

2. answer is 8000 = B

but unfortunately equation no. 2 is supposed to be 16x1000x7.20 = 115,200 = C

with 7.20 the cost to Singapore to treat the water for both sides.

instead of selling water at 115,200, Singapore sold it for 8000.

C- B = Singapore loses 107,200 each time they sell to Malaysia

told you you suck at math
*
Look, you answered my questions, we are paying net 500 ringgit end of the day.

You keep on harping about the actual cost SG paid and how much they subsidize us.

You really think we need myr 7.20 to treat 1000 gallon of water? You know how much is selangor selling for 1000 gallon to the consumer? Try compare Ranhill rate with syabas rate. Its 80 cent/ first 20 m3 agaisnt 57 cent / first 20 m3. Its more expensive even with sg so called subsidies, why?

So you're saying we can't treat the water ourselves at cheaper rate? We can't get treated water under 50 cent if we do it ourselves?

And I'm not even talking about their cost to begin with, I'm talking about our selling price to them.

If you want to hug on the debate of Singapore subsidies us their actually cost is higher, then why not we take over the treatment plant and sell treated water to Singapore? They are selling sgd 1.19 / first 40 m3, we can sell them 1 sgd for first 40m3 & so on they can goyang kaki and earn 19 cent sgd for first 40m3 & so on.

This post has been edited by wanted111who: Mar 4 2019, 03:30 AM
wanted111who
post Mar 4 2019, 03:11 AM

On my way
****
Junior Member
535 posts

Joined: Apr 2012
QUOTE(Faidzal @ Mar 4 2019, 02:31 AM)
1st of all who is we?

there's no 'we'. there's only the water concession holder which in this case is ranhill.

the ranhill corp. pay maintenance fee only for the plants that supply water to johor. as per agreement.

they get money to do maintenance from johor ppl who buy their water.

as for plants that supply both johor and Singapore, it's Singapore that's responsible. as per agreement

not only you suck at math, you lack understanding of law as well.
*
Ranhill is Malaysia company no? Malaysia companies is paying for the maintainance fees no? What are you trying to proves?

Of course, Singapore is paying for the maintainance for now, how about in future? try explain below sentence then,

Singapore would also bear the cost of constructing and maintaining the dam, which would be transferred to Johor at a later date

What you understand as per the law?
wanted111who
post Mar 4 2019, 10:16 AM

On my way
****
Junior Member
535 posts

Joined: Apr 2012
QUOTE(Faidzal @ Mar 4 2019, 07:46 AM)
lulz, you really think johor or ranhill or whatever the entity that you refer to 'we' is paying Singapore for treated water?

so naïve of you.

net pay of RM500?

topkek.

you already mentioned this didn't you?
did you bother to calculate how much Singapore is paying Johor back on those cukai tanah the plants are sitting on?

and that is for the new dam and accompanying water plant, but what about the other older plants?

kesian your comprehension really bad.

and keep mentioning about maintenance cost to me.  doh.gif  doh.gif  doh.gif

bro once we own the plants only then we pay, as it is maintenance cost is part of the calculation of the water tariff ranhill/syabas/PBA etc. water company charge consumers for the water.

ppl have been copy pasting the agreement and also you yourself copy pasted the agreement.

what part of that agreement you can't understand?

1. Singapore has right to draw raw water from johor and sell treated water to johor

2. agreement is until 2061, and it's been since the 1920s, only that latest terms are set in 1990, all this while they have been drawing raw water but even johor can't supply what they require bcos Singapore didn't invest much up until johor and Singapore agreed to the terms you copypasted.

3. once agreement ends in 2061, everything reverts to johor and Singapore can't get a drop of water from johor unless they do a new agreement.

you keep mentioning that johor should  take over the water treatment? do you understand 'breach of contract'?

here's some nice old news about how much Singapore actually paying johor to supply johor with water:

https://www.quora.com/Under-the-1961-1962-w...n-for-raw-water
*
Bro, by just paying rental cukai tanah etc, that is already enough? Top kek la you. They don't have land, use our land, paying for cukai tanah and rental is expected. We now talking about new water rate, not land leasing. If you want to drag land leasing into discussion, why don't you drag and show me total taxes paid by Singaporean in johor? Total business they bring?

Even if we raise the water rate, they will continue paying cukai tanah and rental, and even we increase the water price, SG knew it will still be cheaper options, they also don't have enough land.

Don't you see ranhill is charging higher rate why? To cover for the plant maintainance which was hand over to us like you mention, end of the day who pay? Malaysian. By 2061, water rate we Malaysian (in Johor) pays will increase again.

Johor can't supply enough water? Because they found the tongkat of buying and selling and not bothering supplying. Johor is able to supply for both Johor and Singapore.
wanted111who
post Mar 4 2019, 10:27 AM

On my way
****
Junior Member
535 posts

Joined: Apr 2012
QUOTE(Faidzal @ Mar 4 2019, 08:04 AM)
here's an analogy

1. Singapore and Johor need house.

2. Johor has land but not so much money, so Singapore builds house using 100% of Singapore's money on Johor's land.

3. Johor and Singapore make agreement, whereby Singapore pays for everything (quit rent, assessment, bills, unifi, furnishing etc.) and Johor pay token sum of rm500/month to use everything inside the house and stay inside house as well.

no matter how you calculate it, Singapore pays more compared to johor in this regard.

4. however in same agreement Johor will also get the house in 2061 for free and Singapore must move out, but cannot remove anything from house at all, cannot claim anything at all.

5. Johor also all this while sublet the some of the rooms in the house that Singapore and Johor share to Johor's cousins and friends, and the amount Johor collects from the subletting effectively exceeds the rm500/month that Johor pay to Singapore, and this is also in the agreement and Singapore can't object to other ppl staying in the house bcos they are Johor's friends and cousins.

Johor's cousins and friends who live in Johor's part of house don't have to leave after 2061, unlike Singapore...

Once Singapore leave house Johor get a bigger house and can even increase rent to his cousins and friends who still stay there...

if Singapore wants to continue living inside the now-legally-owned-by-johor house beyond 2061, they have to do new agreement.

despite it's Singapore that effectively built and kept the house...

now you understand?
*
Bro, what's wrong for Singapore to pay more? It's expected. They need vital water sources and gas. In the agreement they get both resources.

Please, we don't have myr 320 million? Really? We can't afford it? We aren't talking about billions here.

We get the facilities in 2061 for free? At what cost? Maintaining it. End of the day who is paying the maintainance? Ranhill? No, it will be Malaysian.
2061 we draft new agreement? Why not we draft new one now? Taking into consideration cost we need absorb to maintaining the world class treatment plant.
wanted111who
post Mar 4 2019, 10:33 AM

On my way
****
Junior Member
535 posts

Joined: Apr 2012
QUOTE(ekookekook @ Mar 4 2019, 10:06 AM)
Let me try to help you Malaysian to Malaysian smile.gif

You now want to sell treated water to SG at S$1 for 1st 40m3 and so on.

Then wtf is SG doing when they sell to MY at RM0.50 per 1,000 gallons? 

If you still dun understand, SG is subsidizing Johor for treated water.

Bear in mind, Johor din lift a single finger to build, pay or construct all the water infra.  This means the water will just flow into the open sea, ie Cantonese say salt water sea. 

It is quite sad that no MY govt officers had disputed a single word in SG's statements since the 1990s.

If this goes to any court, the judge will surely take the entire transaction as a whole and not just 3 sen per 1,000 gallons.

https://www1.mfa.gov.sg/SINGAPORES-FOREIGN-...ater-Agreements

The above will show the full facts which both DR M and the MY media will not want the MY public to know vmad.gif
*
Bro try tell me which state have the most exspensive water rate in Malaysia?

You will understand, whatever subsidy paid by Singapore is useless if the water rate is still highest in Malaysia. My as well we sell to Singaporean , profit from them and use the profit to subsidies Malaysian.

This post has been edited by wanted111who: Mar 4 2019, 10:36 AM
wanted111who
post Mar 4 2019, 10:44 AM

On my way
****
Junior Member
535 posts

Joined: Apr 2012
QUOTE(ekookekook @ Mar 4 2019, 10:37 AM)
MY can obviously propose selling treated water to SG anytime we are ready.

However, do you intend to respect the current contract?

If yes, ayam proud.

If no, where is the respect for written and signed agreements in Baru Malaysia?

The whole world is watching rclxm9.gif  rclxm9.gif  rclxm9.gif
*
Respecting current contract which was drafted without exit clause, review terms in future and was 50 years old?

Is it a fair contract?


wanted111who
post Mar 4 2019, 11:06 AM

On my way
****
Junior Member
535 posts

Joined: Apr 2012
QUOTE(Faidzal @ Mar 4 2019, 10:58 AM)
yes, in fact johor and ranhill profit from all this water business.

as many others have even drawn it in nice infographic to you.

Malaysians pay more to Malaysian company or govt.? why this is normal, where have you been?

if you still cannot or would not understand this then mmg you bodo sombong
*
Tbh, it isn't hard to understand by buying 50 cent selling 3.20 without doing anything.
Profiting on tongkat? End of the contract , who profiting?

Why 2061? Why not forever? Because they are waiting for technology breakthrough of getting water from the sea at cheaper rate.

Even as it is now, the water rate in Johor is high. Penang and Selangor also isn't as high as Johor. Can't imagine what the new rate will be after we absorbing the other plant in 2061.
Profit now, don't care later. No wonder it's easy to take advantage. Just like loan, get money now, pay later.

I prefer to see it long term.



3 Pages < 1 2 3 >
Bump Topic Topic ClosedOptions New Topic
 

Change to:
| Lo-Fi Version
0.0180sec    0.70    6 queries    GZIP Disabled
Time is now: 24th November 2025 - 09:45 PM