I do but my question is, have you been able to keep it to God's expectation so much so it's the qualification of your salvation since u said it's 2 side of the same coin to salvation..IF I remember it correctly.

Or I could be wrong.....

So both Faith + Works = passport to heaven?

Then how do you explain...Ephesians 2:8-9?

8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

It's not play of words

Read the verses carefully, "Salvation...it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works"

Emphasize key importance = Gift and best of all From God. Which part of the "Not of works" you missed out here?

Not means No, you know?

Yes further verse says we were created to do good works but bear in mind for it is God who works in us. Again point to God. What I'm trying to say is that you don't control God and neither can you force God to work in you.

so ultimately Salvation is a gift of God's grace.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Sep 12 2019, 02:20 PM

True Faith in God, not in ourselves to obey or to work because that can turn into a kind of dependency which is what the Bible is trying to cut off.

We need to cast such dependency away imo and look to Christ alone as the anchor.

I've always argued to put in works into the equation is to mix and muddle up the meaning of gift.

As I've said...The works highlighted here are originated from God. Can you force God to work in you? I mean can you "control" that?

As far as I know, no one can control God or force him to work in you. It is upon your faith as the key.

So the Bible is correct that Faith has always been the key and not works to Salvation.

Ya Righteousness imputed because of his Faith in God.

The word performed there is referring to God performing.. not Abraham.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Sep 12 2019, 02:37 PM

The phrase

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.


refers to God not Abraham.

not advocating on dead passive, don't misunderstand, just cutting of the dependency.

The problem in the Christian world is that I think there are people who gauge themselves on the merit of how obedient they are to God as the qualification.

That has always been prevalent and has caused faith to take side step.

I'm really referring to the bold. It is really a prevalent problem in the Christendom.

For me personally, works + Faith has a lot to do with believing in God's promises, in God's ability to answer prayers, it's no point to just believe but act the opposite by complaining and acting out contradictory to what we have prayed. There are Christians today, no longer believing in God's divine miracle. And also in the aspect of loving others in action and not just mere words.

That is the key aspect of Works + Faith in the book of James if we look at all the examples given.

As for Salvation, what the Bible says, it is the gift of God and not of ourselves, we believe in Christ, in his finished work, we are saved by the confession of our mouth. And the prove of our walk really depends on what we believe in. The Holy Spirit will only act according to God's word. If we don't believe that Christ alone is the assurance of our Salvation, we will try to incorporate the works which is what the Bible is against. The works of the flesh as you called it. We nullify the meaning of grace.

Because when we believe right, on Salvation as the gift aspect being a grace gift, when we understand apart from Christ, we can do nothing and learn to live in the New Covenant of Righteousness by Faith, working of God's Holy Spirit comes in a promised. it is something effortless (meaning NONE of our deeds or performance), This fruits or works as what prophetjul is implying comes without us being conscious about it.

Matthew 25:37-39 (NIV) - 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

When we keep harping on this works, it's not going to work. I think we need to focus more on Christ being the vine and none of ourselves.

Well, as how the Bible has point it out, our focus is on primarily Christ being the Savior. If we can get in heaven, with mixing in our faith with our obedience, there is really no need for a Savior. Simply because the gauge now has me involved in it.

Too often we always look to ourselves, our shortcoming where we fall short or where we've fail and .......without realize God already knew all our disobedience as if catches God by surprise.

I'm not trying to say Don't obey. I'm trying to disassociate the confidence in what we do or lack of it in pleasing God.

if only you could understand where I'm coming from.

I'm not against works, by all mean exhibit your faith by your works.

I'm saying works doesn't save us and is not a criteria for Salvation as how the Bible has said it.

We are righteous by Faith, that is the new covenant.

Whether you do good works or lack of it, it is the Lord Jesus that saves you at the end of the day.

Because if you say otherwise then I'll asked you, have you been able to keep all the works as per expectation of God?

It's just a simple yes or no, You didn't really answer me.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Sep 12 2019, 08:03 PM

It's just a simple question, prophetjul, yes or no?

I asked you 1st.

For me I'll say No. your turn.

So my next question is, since you agree your works are not perfect, in a way not consistently perfect, so what merits gets you to heaven based on what Bible says?

Your Faith and by the Grace of God that makes you righteous or your Faith plus imperfect works that makes you righteous?

Just answer my question bro.

What merits you to heaven then since you agree your works is not perfectly consistent?

If you want to quote James, then by the interpretation you insist, then do you think you will inherit Salvation?

Does your work count in the context of James?

2 questions now inter-related.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Sep 13 2019, 10:30 AM

I'm talking about Salvation and you've just admitted, your works are imperfect, you fall at times.



This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Sep 13 2019, 11:34 AM

So you're saying despite of your imperfect works, you will still go to Heaven? Why?

How can it just be Jesus? You've said your work matters. How do you account on your falling short moments?

so are you saying, Jesus is the key reason?

I rest my case then.