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> Military Thread V26

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azriel
post Aug 11 2018, 12:34 AM

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QUOTE(Fat & Fluffy @ Aug 11 2018, 12:27 AM)
i think 30tons and above with no ability to carry units is ok to call light/med tank...
but if it is able to carry units, might as well call it ifv...
below 30ton with light weaponry but can carry unit probably apc,
if cannot carry then technical... lelz

that doesnt mean by calling it ifv it is inferior in terms of armor, namer is called an apc or lightly armed ifv...
not so straight forward these days... tahan hit which part? what kind of shell? with or without modular armor package?

user posted image
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The Namer is a Heavy APC/IFV.

https://www.army-technology.com/projects/na...eavyarmouredin/

This post has been edited by azriel: Aug 11 2018, 12:36 AM
Fat & Fluffy
post Aug 11 2018, 12:58 AM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Aug 11 2018, 02:34 AM)
naming convention these days dont mean much.. peenoise madmax apcs by modern standards are a joke... but still apcs

only the israelies maintain their toys top notch
Mai189
post Aug 11 2018, 01:41 AM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Aug 10 2018, 11:41 PM)
Even the US Army is calling the MPF a light/medium tank. Heck even if they want to call it Super Tank let them be.
The Pindad/FNSS Medium Tank weight is 35 tons. It doesn't matter what you want to call it,  the matters is that someone is buying this tracked vehicle and that is the Indonesian Army with first batch order of 100 units. The Philippine is also a potential export customer. You don't want your vehicle to be just a technology demonstrator.
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Well of course you may end up buying the armored fire support vehicle. How else are you going to get your money back after getting FNSSs technical assistance in coming up with can you call it, a national project. That is only logical and nothing to be embarrassed about.


This post has been edited by Mai189: Aug 11 2018, 02:03 AM
Mai189
post Aug 11 2018, 01:44 AM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Aug 11 2018, 12:28 AM)
I don't think so. The Pindad/FNSS Medium Tank is Stanag Level 5 can only tahan against 25mm cannon at 500 m. The Tulpar Light Tank is Stanag Level 2 but can be upgraded to Level 5.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/STANAG_4569
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Which comes back to what i said. They are just run of the mill armored vehicles.Slap a few armour modules and change the name light, super light or medium.
Mai189
post Aug 11 2018, 02:01 AM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Aug 11 2018, 12:34 AM)
A 30mm or 50mm cannon-armed namer can tear to shreds a tulpar or pindad/fnss or mpf armored fire support vehicle if it gets first shot ability. On the other hand, it may just well take a shot and dish it out. The newer turrets carry internally equipped spike atgm - surprise. None of the afore-mentioned turkish origined vehicles stand a chance.

One of the reasons these 30 ton hull vehicles were unpopular was because they are too thin skinned to go to the front lines. Even an anti material rifle bullet can pierce the hull at some places. Let alone rpgs and shoulder carried anti armour missiles. Modern rapid firing 30nn or 40nm cannon will do it too.

So what use are these vehicles for? Fire support esp in urban settings. They are really fire support vehicles. And accompanied by an armor train of other ifvs to shield them from enemy infantry. Use them correctly, it adds to your fire support. Use them wrongly, they fare worst than say a 30mm or 40mm ifv. Of course, fire support can come via other means. A rocket armed uav can also provide a degree of fire support.
SUSKLboy92
post Aug 11 2018, 05:11 AM

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QUOTE(Mai189 @ Aug 10 2018, 11:14 PM)
So why is the tulpar a light tank and not a medium tank? I asked as to what constitute a medium  or light tank. And why some 30 ton class armored vehicles aremt? You hit the nail on its head when you referenced sales/marketing pitches.

In no way does it detract from the main fact that these are essentially 30 ton class armored vehicles. You just put a large cannon on top. You can also call a jeep with a 105mm recoiless rifle a compact light tank.
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QUOTE(Fat & Fluffy @ Aug 11 2018, 12:58 AM)
naming convention these days dont mean much.. peenoise madmax apcs by modern standards are a joke... but still apcs

only the israelies maintain their toys top notch
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Namer is an exceptional outlier as no other IFV is comparable

Shouldn't be considered benchmark
QUOTE(Mai189 @ Aug 11 2018, 02:01 AM)
Fire support esp in urban settings. They are really fire support vehicles.
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Frankly that is their only use beyond 30mm IFVs. Cause 105mm has various uses in FIBUA. Of course they are able to defeat IFVs and obsolete tanks but it's own thin skin makes that a very suboptimal matchup.

Might as well call them assault guns actually.
azriel
post Aug 11 2018, 07:53 AM

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QUOTE(Mai189 @ Aug 11 2018, 01:41 AM)
Well of course you may end up buying the armored fire support vehicle. How else are you going to get your money back after getting FNSSs technical assistance in coming up with can you call it, a national project. That is only logical and nothing to be embarrassed about.
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Lol. And why would i ever be embarrassed about? Did i wrote just Pindad Medium Tank? Nope i wrote Pindad/FNSS. Because it is afterall a joint development project by both companies. Always posted in this forum the Medium Tank Project as Pindad/FNSS.

Posted in Military Thread V25:

Indonesian PT Pindad and Turkish FNSS Medium Tank Project Team pose with the Medium Tank 1st prototype. The 2nd prototype currently being built by PT Pindad is in its final stages of construction. Credit to Windu Nurkemal Paramarta.

user posted image

https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10210...961&__tn__=EH-R

https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/4405067/+560

This post has been edited by azriel: Aug 11 2018, 09:00 AM
azriel
post Aug 11 2018, 08:19 AM

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DEFTECH - Malaysia AV8 Gempita 8X8 Multi-Role Wheeled Armoured Vehicle.


azriel
post Aug 11 2018, 09:03 AM

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QUOTE
Russia ready to provide Philippine Navy with submarines

Jaime Laude 3 hrs ago

MANILA, Philippines — Russia has expressed willingness to provide the Philippine Navy with two kilo-class diesel electric submarines.

According to Defense Secretary Delfin Lorenzana, Moscow is even offering a soft loan if the Philippine government is short of funds to bankroll the Navy’s submarine acquisition project.

Sources said Lorenzana is scheduled to visit Russia next week.

Soft loan refers to financing with no interest or below market rate of interest.

Once the deal is finalized, in 12 months the submarine acquisition project for the Navy will be completed, with construction of the sub surface warship to start immediately.

When construction starts, the Navy can already expect delivery of its first-ever submarine in four years or after the term of President Duterte, who is supporting the Navy’s submarine procurement project.

Several Southeast Asian states, including Vietnam, have procured kilo class submarines from Russia.

Other than Moscow, the Philippines, according to Lorenzana, is also scouting for other possible submarine suppliers from Europe, including France, South Korea and Germany.

But Lorenzana bared the President is heavily in favor of the Navy’s first ever submarine to be procured from Russia.

“That’s what the President wants,” he said. The Navy is also slated to do a port call on Russia in OOctober


Read more: https://www.msn.com/en-ph/news/national/rus...ines/ar-BBLLiVt

Fat & Fluffy
post Aug 11 2018, 09:31 AM

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QUOTE(KLboy92 @ Aug 11 2018, 07:11 AM)
Namer is an exceptional outlier as no other IFV is comparable

Shouldn't be considered benchmark
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t-15

QUOTE(azriel @ Aug 11 2018, 10:19 AM)
DEFTECH - Malaysia AV8 Gempita 8X8 Multi-Role Wheeled Armoured Vehicle.
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sleek looking
azriel
post Aug 11 2018, 09:56 AM

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QUOTE(Mai189 @ Aug 11 2018, 01:44 AM)
Which comes back to what i said. They are just run of the mill armored vehicles.Slap a few armour modules and change the name light, super light or medium.
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^^^ TLDR:

QUOTE
The U.S. Army Wants a New Light Tank

Here's what it could look like.

By Kyle Mizokami  Aug 15, 2016

The U.S. Army wants a new vehicle that would be lightly protected, but capable of going places the M1 Abrams main battle tank can't go while packing enough firepower to kill armored vehicles much larger than itself. Now Army leaders are meeting with defense contractors to put a plan in motion.

Three Tiers
Generally speaking, there are three types of tanks: heavy, medium, and light. All evolved to fulfill a certain role. Heavy tanks were useful against bunkers and fortifications, as well as dominating smaller tanks on the battlefield. Medium tanks are the mainstay of any tank force, a middleweight compromise between firepower, protection, and mobility. Light tanks were meant for scouting and exploiting breakthroughs, and handling infantry and light armored vehicles.

Note two of these types are in the past tense. Heavy and light tanks have largely disappeared from armies—heavy tanks because they're too slow and expensive, and light tanks because they became too easy to kill on the battlefield. In a world where a single soldier armed with a guided missile can disable a 70-ton tank, there isn't much room for a 30-ton variety.

In addition, recent wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere have prioritized light infantry power above tank power. Yet as China and Russia—both of whom maintain large mechanized armies—act more and more aggressively on the global stage, the American Army has decided it needs an armored vehicle that can go where the action is. The Army would love to send the mainstay of the U.S. Armored Corps, the M1 Abrams, everywhere. Unfortunately, the Abrams has a couple of mobility problems: 12 feet wide and weighing 70 tons, the venerable vehilce has difficulty with restrictive terrain like jungles and mountains. Also, a C-17 transport plane can lift only two M1s at once, and the tank won't fit in the C-130 Hercules at all. So, according to Breaking Defense, the army is now meeting with leaders in the armored vehicle industry to create a next-generation vehicle.

Lighten Up
The Army disposed of its light tanks in the early 1990s, when the M551 Sheridan was retired from the 82nd Airborne Division. Subsequent attempts to build a light tank have stalled out (XM8 Armored Gun System) or provided an unsatisfactory product (the M1128 Mobile Gun System.) Now the Army wants to try again, what could the Army's future tank look like? There have been several technological innovations since the last attempt.

Firepower: Right now, the standard gun for light tanks is a 105-millimeter conventional tank gun. Conventional tank guns are versatile, capable of engaging tanks, armored vehicles, and infantry targets. Unfortunately the fixed barrel width makes it difficult to improve the gun's penetrating power as enemy tank armor improves over time.

Instead, the light tank of the future could easily punch above its weight by using a combination of light guns and anti-tank missiles. The vehicle could use a 30-millimeter chain gun to engage smaller targets and missiles such as Javelin or Hellfire to engage larger one. The Army could even bring back gigantic, blistering-fast LOSAT, or Line of Sight, Anti-Tank hypervelocity missile developed in the 1990s.

Protection: Here's where the light tank will benefit the most from technological innovation. Active protection systems such as the Israeli Trophy and Russian Arena, which use radar antennas to track enemy rockets and missiles and shoot them down with shotgun-like blasts, can protect a small tank just as well as a large one. That means that a modern U.S. light tank could dispense with much of its armor—perhaps keeping just enough to stop 12.7-millimeter heavy machine gun bullets. For larger projectiles, an active protection system would keep the tank crew safe.

Mobility: For decades, the U.S. Army resisted wheeled armored vehicles, preferring tracks over wheels. Tracks are better able to shrug off battlefield damage than wheels, and they are better in some types of ground—particularly crossing ditches or muddy, rough terrain. They're also much heavier.

Now that the Army has purchased the Stryker interim armored vehicle in large numbers, it's much less resistant to wheeled designs than it has been in the past. Wheeled armored vehicles are better at navigating bad terrain than ever, with the added advantage of creating a lighter vehicle with better mobility on roads.

The common conception of a light tank is a small, pudgy vehicle with a pipsqueak of a gun and a cramped, miserable with a short battlefield lifespan. The "light tank" of the future could be dropped out of airplanes, ringed with radars and other sensors, run on six or more wheels, and hurl tank-shattering missiles up to five miles away. Just don't call it a light tank.


https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/w...new-light-tank/

This post has been edited by azriel: Aug 11 2018, 09:58 AM
SUSKLboy92
post Aug 11 2018, 09:59 AM

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QUOTE(Fat & Fluffy @ Aug 11 2018, 09:31 AM)
t-15
sleek looking
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Fine then, smart arse

I'll add the Achzarit, Nagmachon and Nakpadon as well, happy?

Point being that these are way in the minority in the big scheme of things, outside of Israel only a literal handful of Armatas will be built
azriel
post Aug 11 2018, 10:20 AM

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Pindad/FNSS Medium Tank Prototype currently undergoing several tests. Credit to Diyan.

user posted image

https://www.instagram.com/p/BmNL7qQHkpH/

This post has been edited by azriel: Aug 11 2018, 10:21 AM
Mai189
post Aug 11 2018, 10:39 AM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Aug 11 2018, 09:56 AM)
Thanks for the article. Just goes to show how vulnerable these 30 ton fire support vehicles are . Oh so they are now "light" tanks.
azriel
post Aug 11 2018, 11:22 AM

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QUOTE(Mai189 @ Aug 11 2018, 10:39 AM)
Thanks for the article. Just goes to show how vulnerable these 30 ton fire support vehicles are . Oh so they are now "light" tanks.
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Well the last word in the article said "Just don't call it a light tank."

Everyone have their own classification. One would see the SAIC/ST Kinetics MPF as a Light or Medium Tank and one would see it as an IFV 105mm as it is basically is an IFV with a 105mm turret.

Even the WW2 Panther Tank the German classified it as a Medium Tank whereas the Russian & the Allies classified it as a Heavy Tank.

Heck even Rheinmetall calling their Marder Medium Tank as the Marder Medium MBT. Lol.

user posted image

IMHO..there is no definite classification.

This post has been edited by azriel: Aug 11 2018, 12:23 PM
Fat & Fluffy
post Aug 11 2018, 11:30 AM

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QUOTE(KLboy92 @ Aug 11 2018, 11:59 AM)
Fine then, smart arse

I'll add the Achzarit, Nagmachon and Nakpadon as well, happy?

Point being that these are way in the minority in the big scheme of things, outside of Israel only a literal handful of Armatas will be built
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dont need name calling la, be civil and engage in constructive discussion... if easily triggered then dont continue la

yea, why not... that's the role assigned...

the only exception is the merkava being able to ferry infantry... that's a special tank... the rest, fits the role given

QUOTE(azriel @ Aug 11 2018, 12:20 PM)
Pindad/FNSS Medium Tank Prototype currently undergoing several tests. Credit to Diyan.

user posted image

https://www.instagram.com/p/BmNL7qQHkpH/
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wonder whether elements of the xm8 is incorporated into the design
azriel
post Aug 11 2018, 11:33 AM

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QUOTE(Mai189 @ Aug 11 2018, 10:39 AM)
Thanks for the article. Just goes to show how vulnerable these 30 ton fire support vehicles are . Oh so they are now "light" tanks.
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Nowadays any armored vehicles are vulnerable even Main Battle Tanks. Unless they are equipped with APS. Every weapons will always have a counter weapons.

This post has been edited by azriel: Aug 11 2018, 11:36 AM
SUSKLboy92
post Aug 11 2018, 11:56 AM

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QUOTE(Fat & Fluffy @ Aug 11 2018, 11:30 AM)
dont need name calling la, be civil and engage in constructive discussion... if easily triggered then dont continue la

yea, why not... that's the role assigned...

the only exception is the merkava being able to ferry infantry... that's a special tank... the rest, fits the role given
wonder whether elements of the xm8 is incorporated into the design
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Hmm let's see

We are discussing about vehicle armour protection

You claim that IFVs also can have heavy protection equal to a tank

I and others are saying that the vast majority of IFVs do not. The Namer is one of the few exceptions.

Then you say T-15 also.

So your point is?

^ If this is not called being smart ass then what is it?
Mai189
post Aug 11 2018, 12:27 PM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Aug 11 2018, 11:22 AM)

Everyone have their own classification. One would see the SAIC/ST Kinetics MPF as a Light or Medium Tank and one would see it as an IFV 105mm as it is basically is an IFV with a 105mm turret.

Even the WW2 Panther Tank the German classified it as a Medium Tank whereas the Russian & the Allies classified it as a Heavy Tank.

Heck even Rheinmetall calling their Marder Medium Tank as the Marder Medium MBT. Lol.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-x5mUDKsSSI8/WBQh...82948de7cd5.jpg 

IMHO..there is no definite classification.
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Haha. That was the gist of my argument friend. Calling it light or medium or whatever is misleading with regard to what is essentially a 30 ton plus armored platform.
Fat & Fluffy
post Aug 11 2018, 12:32 PM

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QUOTE(KLboy92 @ Aug 11 2018, 01:56 PM)
Hmm let's see

We are discussing about vehicle armour protection

You claim that IFVs also can have heavy protection equal to a tank

I and others are saying that the vast majority of IFVs do not. The Namer is one of the few exceptions.

Then you say T-15 also.

So your point is?

^ If this is not called being smart ass then what is it?
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i am stating that vehicles are defined by their role not by their armor... examples that i give are to justify my statements which you ownself concur with the examples that you give albeit your wordings do not

whether you accept it or not does not matter.. there's no need for name calling

QUOTE(Peiyantiu @ Aug 11 2018, 02:25 PM)
This one manyak gooding against sulu invaders
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were they armed with rpg?

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