dear sifus,
ive been playing with my d40 for arnd 1 month now.
i have never transfer my pics to pc until today....
and guess what???!!!!
most of the pics are underexpose...i dun understand this...
because after clicking the shutter and previewing...it looks fine....
any problem here?
HELP ME PLEASE!!!!

mind post few of the pictures here? u mean the pic look diferent from view screen or from it 1st taken?

look diff from view screen...
on view screen looks exposed correctly...
then on pc...underexposed...=(
y like this?

look at your histogram.... and thts what ev is for..

check ur monitor
or try save the pics and view it from other ppl's monitor

my colleague been taking pictures and keep on complaining his pics are underexposed,
i said kenot be - coz he is using "auto" and most of his shots is in broad day light outdoor

turn out the culprit is the old monitor....

but i can only check the histogram after shooting it...
i have no real time histogram...
anyway thanks for the lead...
btw...ev is the exposure value rite?
so when it is dark we should increase it n vice versa izzit?
i also found out that my pics underexposes when shooting indoor...with flourescent / incandescent lights....
any help to improve exposure?

As for the lighting, have u tried to changed the White Balance setting... or perhaps, go shot RAW and later play around with the WB in your pc ..

i use auto wb....=)...
and yes i shot in raw n played with wb in ps....
i was juz wondering...
is it normal for d40 to show something good on screen in fact it is underexposed?
or i m juz not good?

why do u need real time histogram? after shoot, see the histogram, if under, shoot again lo...

Spot meter off some surface/subject that you think is reasonably illuminated.
Don't use matrix metering.

I think XANDMAN follow the Ken Rockwell instruction. Put EV at -0.7. Maybe that's the reason underexpose.

Use the meter at the viewfinder to check for the under or over expose thingy. Something like bar under the shutter speed and aperture in the viewfinder. I always try to keep in the middle. If more lines to the left, then it is overexpose, if it more to the right, then it's underexpose. So far i use is ok.

This post has been edited by jeffbong: May 11 2007, 03:00 AM

oooo ok i think its the metering....
i set it to matrix....
thx all for the reply...
and thx jeff for explaining the bar thingy....
hahahahaha...i was about to ask what the bar does...but u answered me b4 i could ask!
thx again all! will try to shoot again! =)

Dun forget to post pics ... happy shooting!

will do...once i get it to turn out just right!
hehehe...
btw...
if let's say the exposure bar is to the right...means underexposure...how can i counter the problem?
and also what if it is overexposure? how can i counter it?
thanks!

I dun counter over or under-exposure .. I shoot 1st and see if what my FEELING is telling me against what kinda images I want, not what my LCD is showing me. It's your 1st time comparing your images on the monitor so get your monitor tuned to your camera's LCD first.

Dun let your LCD or your monitor tell you what is right or wrong, after you shoot anything, what does your FEELING tells you?

wwaaaa...ac98...
u sound like yoda! hehehe...anyway thx for the tips...good to get tips from a pro...
btw...how can i calibrate my monitor according to my lcd?
one more thing sifu ac98...
can u explain more of the "feeling"?
thx thx thx!!!

underexposure
- lower shutter speed, i.e. from 1/1000 change to 1/500
- increase aperture size, i.e. from f5.6 change to f3.5
- increase flash power, i.e. from -1EV to 0EV
- increase ISO, i.e. from ISO200 change to ISO400

overexposure
- increase shutter speed
- lower aperture size
- decrease flash power
- decrease ISO

maybe u should also try to understand more of how the camera work...
or have u try reading the Instruction Manual before that comes together wif the camera?

*btw...just my 2cents - refering to ur soon-2-get-gear. 70-300mm and 18-200mm are two lens wif half of the range overlapping, i.e. 70-200mm
why dun u instead replace 18-200mm wif a 18-70mm range lens instead?
also instead of eyeing for the VR, a lens wif large aperture such as f/2.8 would provide u wif a better bokeh on the photos...

if money is no matter to u, of coz i would suggest the following Nikon lens:
- 70-200mm VR f/2.8
- 28-70mm f/2.8

This post has been edited by karwaidotnet: May 11 2007, 07:48 AM

Generally, matching how your LCD and monitor look like in terms of colour and brightness is one hell of a task. I use a Samsung SyncMastr 75DFX by the way. One surefire way is to KNOW that images that are 'just right' according to your eye on the LCD is also 'just right' according to your eye on the monitor ... never too much, never too less. For example ... if it's overexposed on your LCD but just right on your monitor, it's time to brighten down your LCD until it somewhat matches your monitor OR ELSE you will consequently bring back underexposed images back home, understand? It works vice versa.

As for 'feeling' your images ... this will have to wait until you have all your camera settings on your TEN fingers, not FIVE and you can shoot as if the camera is an EXTENSION of your body, no longer a separate entity

karwaidotnet...
thx for the pointers on over n underexposure...
about the lenses...between the 70-300 n 18-200...i'd like to get only one of it...f/2.8 lenses are great but a bit out budget for the time being...=)..
sure will look into it once ive mastered the basics...

ac98...
will try the technique to calibrate my monitor...i guess its the brightness...bcoz i set my monitor brightness to quite low...since i m facing it almost all the time...
as for the 'feeling'...hope ill develop it soon...when i m VERY comfy with my gears....

thx all!!!!

Same as what i had experienced with the D40X
If you set Ev +1.0 the pics will be nicely exposed
but your shutter drop 1/20

I use mostly A, S, and M. Let say, u play S mode, if the bar more to the right(underexpose), then slow down ur shutter speed until it goes to the middle. If ur bar more to the left(over expose), then make ur shutter speed higher until it goes to the middle. All using the dial.

Same for A,S and M(play both to get the bar right!!).

I always set my EV to -0.3 and -0.7(most of the time).Then play the bar. First few days got D40, always set at 0EV and get overexposes. Then read few forums says that D40 need to be set at -0.3 to -0.7.

Hope it helps

Why increasing EV can affect shutter speed one? 1/20 somemore. Means if you already at 1/20 and increase EV +1 mah become 1sec shutter speed?

why compare pro bodies with normal bodies? Yours can still change EV even when you set your aperture and shutter speed.

D80, 350D and in this case i think the D40 are affected when you change your EV to +, your shutter will drop. EV-, your shutter will increase.

jeffbong / shinchan...
i will take a look at the EV settings...
thanks for the tips....

I heard even the EOS 5D also cannot do this ... why can't they put it in semi-pro or entry level DSLRs? It makes exposure control easier and I dun find this feature very 'professional' also? What about Nikon pro models? Can they +/- EV without affecting currect Shutter/Aperture value?

this we need andre to confirm whether d200 can do it or not. lol

no u cant adjust the EV without need to adjust the aperture or shutter speed on a d200. heard from a d200 owner

i wanted to include the owner you mentioned into my post just now but then... lol
looks like only canon pro bodies can do it... anyone with Nikon D1, d2 series?

on the D200, setting the EV just changes the Shutter speed.... (i think)

don't really play with it so much since the exposure is right most the time...

1D will not change the shutter speed when you change the EV... based on what i saw from ac's 1D

does d40 change shutter or aperture if we modify EV?
i didnt realise this...

you are in quite a good situation to answer your own question... haha

try it out and see if it adjusts your shutter speed or ISO (if autoISO is on) or Aperture (if you are not in aperture/manual mode)

gahh...

guys,
EV means Exposure Value.

facts:
- CCD/CMOS receives light from the subject to produce the photo.
- no enough light receives will leads to underexpose photo,
- too much light receives will leads to overexpose photo.

as i mentioned previously to xandman,
shutter speed, aperture, ISO, flash affects the exposure of the photo.
(the four factors which u can control on the camera. other factors would include external factors such as reflector, the sun, the moon, softbox, and other external source of light)

thus, changing your EV value WILL surely change:
- shutter speed when u're using A (aperture) priority.
- aperture size when u're using S (shutter) priority
- ISO range when u set your ISO mode at Auto.
- flash when u change the flash EV manually (if u notice, ur camera would have two EV value. one for the camera sensor, CCD/CMOS, another one for the built-in/attached flash).
* the only time ur shutter speed and aperture size does not change as of when u change the EV value is when u use the M (Manual) mode.
** ISO value will not change when u selected the required value at your camera menu settings, i.e. set to ISO200 and it will stay that way permanently till u change it again.

if just changing the EV wont affect the shutter speed / aperture / ISO, why we still need VR???

do i need to explain why u guys need VR? or IS? or AS? or any other brand camera technology that help reduce handshake...

This post has been edited by karwaidotnet: May 11 2007, 10:12 PM

wlcling...
i guess u r right...
i can check it out myself...
hehehhee...sorry..for asking kinda stupid ques...

EV will change your shutter/aperture in A,S,P and other modes. but it wont change in M. that i'm pretty sure for my d70s. AC, your 1D can change EV without affecting aperture/shutter in A or S?

I'm no camera Guru but, here's what i think which i hope makes it simplistic (to me at least)

like karwaidotnet elaborated earlier, you can say Exposure is manipulated by the combination of either aperture/shutter/iso (and i guess available light source as the main item that finally ties in to the combination of the 3 above).

The EV button/function is something like reverse engineering (maybe its not the best term to describe it ). So when you tweak the EV +/- settings, it automatically changes anyone of the 3 items above depending on which mode you're on (xcept Manual Mode) to get the Exposure you want.

My explanation should have holes anyway, since Ac98 mentions it doesn't change these settings mentioned

This post has been edited by wlcling: May 11 2007, 11:02 PM

kinda defeat the purpose of +-EV adjustment in the cam if it adjust the other values when we can adjust the other values ourselves

unless its meant for manual mode users

say i wanna +1.0 EV. what is there to add or minus to get 1.0EV?

EV is just a metering. what is there to add/tweak to make it +1.0EV? beside aperture, shutter speed and iso?

I dun remember the last time I use Av or Tv, haha! But at Av or Tv the values will change as you go up or down the Ev bar, they should change to correspond with the final exposure setting.

never 100% trust your LCD. Use histogram

g88...
now i know...
now i check the lcd to see the composition only...
then histogram for the exposure...=)

hehe.. then its all the same la.

Yup, I now review all of my shots with histogram.

Even though your pics may look darkish or overly-bright in the LCD (LCD also has its own brightness and contrast, BTW), as long as most of your histogram(s) is between the upper and lower limits you still have a lot of leeway later to adjust the photo via Photoshop or your RAW converter.

In high-contrast scenes, you must make the choice between either sacrificing the bright areas or the dark areas as you cannot fit the entire histogram within limits for any one exposure. If a still pic, you can take multiple shots of different exposures and assemble as a High Dynamic Range photo later.

histograms in old cameras arent rgb... so not perfect as well.

So in the end, it's what YOU want, not what your camera tells you

Even with the ability to review all 3 colour channels' histograms, you may not have the time to retake and retake until all 3 colours' exposure is acceptable. Normally, all 3 colours' distribution will follow one another very similarly. A cursory glance at just one colours' or the 'overall' histogram should suffice and better than none...

the histogram in my d70s only shows green. so its almost useless when i shoot red.

Ouch, never knew that...

Yeah, it could be very inaccurate when shooting a scene that's predominantly of one colour.

But the DCResource review about the D70s (http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/nikon/d70s-review/) doesn't mention about the green-only histogram. Looks to me like it's an 'overall' or 'average' histogram.

GAH...HAHAHAHA...
sorry...i just had to laugh at such noob statement...

aichiban: EV adjustment is use to adjust or override what is being meter by ur camera in A/S mode. camera metering is just a device to measure. it does not "know" what exact exposure u really wan. so wif EV adjustment aka EV Compensation, u override the camera metering and snap the photo u wan wif the exposure u wan to achieve. get it?

---

Added on May 13, 2007, 8:41 pmdepends...

but it can be done wif ur flash...
external flash preferably...

look at this pic say for example.

*ken: borrow ur photo for awhile ok...will remove it after few days later..

no HDR. the sky is brigther than the model and if u were to expose the sky, the model will be in total darkness...if u expose the model, the sky will be in pure white color.

but this photo shows both the foreground and background detail clearly.

why?

Flash.

---

Added on May 13, 2007, 8:48 pmat least someone here knows something about his camera...

This post has been edited by karwaidotnet: May 13 2007, 08:54 PM

Yes, this is a very good example of when fill-flash will solve this sort of problem.

But, what if your subject is over 20m away?
What if you have several subjects are they are at different distances away from you?
Or, you're in a large interior with the only source of light the sunlight coming through its windows?

I find that most cases of high-contrast scenes I get require some sacrifice on the exposure.

One example I can show (inclusive of some strange sensor smearing effect):



Here, I preferred the nice dark silhouette of the subjects against the setting sun.

When the subject is in range of the flash, then fill-flash can be used to very good effect:

But watch out for harsh shadows cast by the flash, as can be seen on the girl's neck, upper shoulder, and dress (was your friend using off-axis flash with sync cord? Recommended). The above photo is still believable as the shadow from the foremost flower with the ant is quite diffused.

As for HDR, it is still one option I've seen others use to great effect on still compositions. I am not a HDR person as I don't really bother to carry tripods most of the time nowadays...

This post has been edited by cjtune: May 13 2007, 09:39 PM

oic
thanks for pointing it out
too used to M mode


edit - thanks for the photo + explanations too

This post has been edited by aichiban: May 13 2007, 09:42 PM

To add on: the EV adjustment is relative to whatever is 'anchored' by your camera's metering (via either spot, centre-weighed, or matrix metering).

So you set the initial 'base' or 'anchored' value of EV first, and then and +/- so-&-so EV value to suit your taste.

EV values are based on the power of two. So you can visualise in your head before making any EV adjustments with the knowledge that one EV increment is double the brightness of the metered area. Similarly, 1 EV decrement is half the brightness.

You can read the Wikipedia article on Exposure Value -it's interesting but it's pretty involved...

glad that u understand...
sorry i hope i didnt offend u...
didnt mean too...

cjtune: as i mentioned earlier on..."DEPENDS".

however, at reasonable range, it can be resolve.
for the photo i took as an example,
i believe wif couple of reflectors, few more flashs, preferably softbox...perhaps,
should solve those harsh shadows problem...

*IMHO, i can already see the flower is shot wif some use of external light as there's highlight at few spots of the flower, the shadow is at the wrong place and the light looks kinda...doesn't seems like from the sun.

the use of a reflector is a better alternative here...as it would be more diffuse and the light bounce back to the flower is still from the sun itself. thus making it more natural.

This post has been edited by karwaidotnet: May 13 2007, 10:35 PM

guys...
from all of ur discussion...
i think i understand a bit about exposure...
but what i m still confused is...
how to use the different type of metering...
matrix, center weighted and spot...
and also...i tried reading up on metering....
i juz couldnt understand the concept...
can u all help me to understanding this topic?
thx thx thx!!!!

Well, it was good that you mentioned about fill flash. But I had to digress a bit more about "it depends" and limitations of fill flash when it comes to high contrast scenes.

Your eye is a trained eye! Pretty good you can tell the lighting direction, especially when there is no other clue in the picture. In fact, I can't really remember where was the sun! The light was from a bounce card, not direct flash. The flower cluster was about 6ft from the ground, and it was actually being shaded by trees. If you're going to use reflectors, you can't rely on sunlight alone with all that shade.

I've been thinking about carrying a foldable reflector, but have put it off for quite some time as I usually don't do macros (I do street shots), and with one free hand and no tripod, I'd rather use an off-camera flash with sync cord to change the direction of lighting to counter harsh shadows.

---

Added on May 13, 2007, 11:49 pmWell, spot and centre-weighted is about the same except that spot meters from a very small, almost dot-like area for brightness, while centre-weighted covers a larger area -a bit larger than your centre focus target zone and then averages whatever is inside that zone.

You can use spot/centre-weighted to meter the brightness off some surface you think is most representative of what you want, press Auto-Exposure Lock (AEL), and then move the viewfinder to cover your actual scene and then snap. It's just like focus-lock but for exposure. Very rarely the centre of your current view also has the best exposure so you've got to use AEL.

Matrix or evaluative metering takes readings from your entire view. This sort of metering segments your current view into some NxN number of evaluation zones. 7x7=49 zones is quite normal. This is then compared against a database of possible shooting scenarios pre-programmed in your camera's logic board. But in using it, I find that it largely is just an average of the entire scene. So if you're shooting against a bright or largely whitish background, it will 'drag' down your reference exposure and then whatever minority area (most likely your subject!) will be shot severely underexposed. Similarly, if your background is largely dark, any minority area will be severely overexposed (but most likely you will suffer from slow shutter speed blur first).

This post has been edited by cjtune: May 13 2007, 11:54 PM

cjtune....
thanks for the explanation..
juz one more thing for me to clear up my confusion...
lets take a scenario for example...
i m shooting a subject with a bright backgroud...therefore the subject will be dark rite?
so in this condition...if i want the subject to be visible...where shud i meter? subject or background?
thanks thanks thanks...
i really appreciate it for those who r willing to help me!
=)

from this statement i think u still not fully understand what cjtune has explanined...
if u cant understand the word metering, let's make it to become another word - MEASUREMENT.

if u wan to measure the whole frame then let the camera average out the exposure - u use matrix.

if u wan to measure just the center of the frame, u use center-weighted.

if u wan to measure a specific dot on the frame, u use spot / partial.

so if u wan to measure a subject against a bright background, first determine what u wan to measure?
if u wan the subject to be fully expose, ignoring the background, the use 'something' to measure that subject.

what is this something? can u answer this now?

This post has been edited by karwaidotnet: May 14 2007, 07:48 AM

Centre Weighted measures from the centre and averages out to the whole frame. It is not "whatever inside that zone"

edit: typo

This post has been edited by nairud: May 14 2007, 08:34 AM

'something' is to spot meter on the subject...is this true?
=)...

*i have a tutor...thank u nairud*

This post has been edited by xandman: May 14 2007, 10:37 AM

not offended, actually learned from you
pls post more, (in other thread as well) as I really find your posts informative and very straight to the point
something which I, hopefully many others can relate to

and if I sound too nubbish, its becoz i am
so pls dun mind to "offend" me, coz if thats offending, offend me more

OK...but i dont think the word "averages" sounds correct.

Quoted from the D70 Manual:
average is like measuring every part equally.
but here it is actually like it'll put more emphasis or more biased towards the center.

---

Added on May 14, 2007, 8:56 pmfor me - its true.
u have PASS on the basic of camera metering.

This post has been edited by karwaidotnet: May 14 2007, 08:56 PM

I think you're quite right karwaidotnet. My theory is kinda rusty too.
Center-weighted is not just a bigger spot meter... A visual illustration of it would be as a circle with a darkest shade (ie. most weightage) at its centre, and progressively lighter shading towards its circumference (least weightage).

However, I would not agree that it doesn't average out the exposure in its zone.
It's simply a weighted average (something like how you calculate moments in mechanics and statistics).

This post has been edited by cjtune: May 14 2007, 09:04 PM

karwaidotnet...
thx for being patient in teaching this total noob!
i m happy!
at least ive learned something!
i know what a spot meter does...=)...
i m waiting for the moment to try it out!
thanks again all...!!!

cannot try it out now mehh???
just take something at ur house - a book, a figurine, ur cat, ur brother, ur sister and try take a photo of them/it lahh...

hahahaha...
ok ok boss...
will try now...=)

---

Added on May 14, 2007, 9:49 pmboss...
tried oredi...
nice...now i understand!!!
i tried shooting an object(a small flag actually) which has a bright light on the backgroud...
i spot the flag...it turns out nice but a bit dark and the light is less bright...
but when i spot the light...i can only see the light...the rest is dark...like total darkness...
thats what supposed to happen rite?

This post has been edited by xandman: May 14 2007, 09:49 PM

actually, interestingly enough, wouldn't all these metering be covered in the DSLR manual?

(i'm not the boss, but i try answering anyway yah)
You've got the theory right, the relative darkness and brightness sounds correct, but when you spot the flag, it should actually be turning out "just nice" rather than a bit dark.

---

Added on May 15, 2007, 12:02 amactually for your info, i use metering ala KRW (kenrockwell) style. Read it up while looking through his reviews but not sure if it applies to all DSLR makes.

Matrix metering all the time, where i then instead change E/V to get a different exposure.

This post has been edited by wlcling: May 15 2007, 12:02 AM

wcling,
i have asked them to read the manual...
but i guess the manual kinda scared them away from it...

karwaidotnet...wlcling...
about the manual thingy...
actually i read them...few times over...
but still not very clear...
thats y i need some experienced people...like u guys...
to explain it to me...
it is easily understood rather than formal book language...=)...
thx again to all experience shared with me!
ill try to look up about the kenrockwell article...
ive read some of his reviews...but i guess i missed the exposure one...
will look it up...=)

i'm definitely a spot metering dude. zone system is pretty interesting.

guys...
now ive finally got the hang of spot metering...
thanks to u all...
but now i have one more prob...
i juz realized that sometimes the EV meter on my d40...doesnt show up...and it shows LO in the aperture...btw i m shooting using S mode...
is this normal?

yes. u may also sometimes get HI

LO - means the current setting u've config wont even let ur camera able to see a thing
HI - too bright lohh...

a very easy way to get LO, startup ur camera, but let ur lens cap on.

again this is only applicable for P/A/S...
but not for M.

This post has been edited by karwaidotnet: May 15 2007, 09:45 PM

i think i'm learning with you as well

i just tried that out as well. and here's my explanation on what i think is happening...

On S or Shutter mode, the camera automatically sets the Aperture & ISO settings so the higher the shutter speed on a dimly lit area, it will set the aperture wider and ISO higher (dependant if its on Auto ISO) so in the end it still gets a "correctly" exposed image.

But as you push the shutter too high, theres a limit on the wideness of your aperture and your ISO, so at a certain point your shutter is too fast for the image to get exposed correctly, that's when you see a "LO in the aperture". If you push the shutter even faster, you'll get LO+. Its just a way to tell your picture is going to be really underexposed...

ok. karwaidotnet beat me to the explaining

This post has been edited by wlcling: May 15 2007, 09:52 PM

hehehe...
u 2 seems very helpful in this topic...
thanks...
i didnt notice the LO+ until u told me...
hehehehe...=)..
see...i learned something new again...
thank god for LYN n its helpful members!

wow, interesting topic, I too dont know exactly what the heck is this 'LO' thing until i read this thread. very informative.

LOL. Ken Rockwell style. How'd he pin his name there? I always though it was a lazy method most ppl use (including me, 95% of the time). Matrix metering is fine for nearly all scenes, but with some trial and error EV adjustments, and some you can even memorise: eg. night street scene with some lighting: anywhere between EV-1 to EV-2, matrix. Too little lighted surfaces to meter off, and any light is usually very intense. Example:

it's all in the manual...