Well, of course most Christians will tell you that it is based on history. Because the Bible to begin with is like a history book, collection of events in the past.
To a non-believer, this would definitely be ridiculous. Why are Christians talking and referring to the Bible all the time?
I understand. Its just a book, thats already well written. Other religions have books as well.. And there's always gonna be books after books after books.

But then again, to a believer, we believe the Bible is not just any book.. It is the book where God speaks to us. (Yes, it sounds stupid, bear with me)
Now why are Christians so staunched with the Bible?
Cos we believe the Bible is true. Whatever the Bible said, we believe it is from God.
And that is why Christians after Christians would quote the Bible and derive the message from it because that's our believe.

The difference?
A non Believer can read the Bible and mean nothing to him. Because the one thing thats required before all this makes sense is faith.

Without faith, the Bible are merely words as like any other book.
With faith, the Bible speaks to us. How? Non believers would say by coincidence some passages and verses applies to the person. By coincidence the person's 'prayer' has a solution.

But for believers, we know NOTHING is by coincidence.

i hope it helps your understanding on why we take the Bible so seriously and often quote it.

Sure thing..
I don't believe in coincidences.. It is not by coincidence that i'm at this forum or trying to contribute to it..
Neither do i think that anger is the right emotion to express comments..
As it is written James 1:1920,"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. "

Im not sure what RWI is.. but if you want to discuss, we can discuss somewhere else..
Just let me know where and il'l go there

I'm ok.
I'm here cos i know those here want to know more of God's word.
I'm here because i have a burden in my heart to help those who want to grow in God's word. And from what I know, I can share.
From what I don't know, I can learn.

So yea.. this forum works very fine for me.

But i'm not sure what issues you have that you want to discuss..
Even RWI issues can be brought here, not necessarily to RWI forum.. Why cant RWI issues be dealt in a Biblical way?

i've moved on your questions to RWI also.
Whichever forum it is..
I'm an 'ambassador' for Christ.. i don't live for UW or whoever it is that's involved in this forum.
I speak for myself and from what i've learnt from the Bible.

and my intentions are sincere, to try and answer whatever questions you have about God. Or to help Christians grow..
So whichever one you fall into, let me know.. either here or wherever forum or manner of discussion you want it to be..

Its not about the forum that matters... its about the answers..

I've gone through this period..
I'll pray for him.
I think he needs a lot of comforting from God's word.

Romans 8:28
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

That would be the King James Version Bible; the closest english translation to the original scripts
In fact, the NIV and other simplified versions of the Bible has hid away various other messages that can be told in a verse..

Yes.
Catholics use their own versions of the Bible.
This is because of the fact that they do not believe the Bible is fully written and completed. Hence, whatever scrolls or scriptures they dig out or managed to discover can be added into it.

No offense but new KJV is then again a simplified version from KJV..
try comparing verses to verses.. for daily bread reading.. KJV reveals a lot more..
However, for bible studying.. yes.. referring back to the original scripture is the main way, and also to consider the grammer of the original scripture and its application back to that era.

Try out this app Olive Tree Bible App.
It's good for bible studying.
Reading the bible and for parallel verses, dictionaries to look-up on words and its definitions..

Great video but unfortunately i couldn't go through it at the moment.
I'll look into it in a while.
In the mean time, could you share the bible verses involved?

John 10:28, " And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

This itself is a very straightforward clear message to state then a person's salvation is permanent. The law and the ultimate death by the law is not applicable.

Having said so, back to the question does it mean it gives a license to the person to kill and get to heaven still?
even if he kills, he will go to heaven. Yes, this concept is true.
but what is doubtfully true, is the person's salvation to begin with.

John 14:15 ,"If ye love me, keep my commandments"

1 John 2:3, "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments"

1 John 5:3, "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous"

1 Corinthians 7:19 ,"Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God."

It is true, we as Christians are told to observe the commandments of God.
To obey Jesus Christ's commandments.

But, that doesnt mean if we disobey, it impacts our salvation.
THAT IS IF SALVATION EXISTED TO BEGIN WITH.

I can assure you no one human can guarantee another's salvation.
Salvation is between the person and God.
We can only assume a person is saved by their fruits.

But it is also written in numerous places in the New Testament about people who thought they were saved, but in fact and truth are not.

If a person is truly saved, would he have worshiped other Gods?
The above is a high-level example. now lets move on to the more specific explanation.

If a person is truly saved, would he have continue sinning against God?
Observe i did say continue sinning because as christians it doesnt mean zero sin (even the Apostle Paul is not able to do it), but we can only sin-LESS.

God will chasten those who sin.. In His own way.
But back to the main topic is, if a person is saved, he wouldnt choose to be a killer.
But if he's saved, even if he killed, he is still, saved.

Dont think you read it correctly.
I didnt say i believe in predestination.
I said, salvation is personal.

And About those who i said might not be saved.
Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.ho thought they were saved..


James 2
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

I think you've not read it correctly or you jumped into your own conclusions

1 John 1:8-10

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 2:1-2

1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

This was written to believers which are already saved.. sin is an ongoing thing.. you will still sin even after you're saved.. but salvation is permanent..

There are certain aspects i agree.. such as the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
Hebrews 12:6,7
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Correct. But I rather think there's a gap of clarification between what is your term of salvation.
You are right to say, when a person is saved, there is a repentance of sin..

Ephesians 4:22
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Colossians 3:9
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Yes. These are the fruits of one that is saved.

However, your argument is to backsliden christians.. that their salvation is at stake?
Revelations 2:5
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

What does the verse above tell you? and from the verses above, what will God do if His children are backsliding?
Salvation is permanent for many reasons supported by many verses (although you've mentioned its quoted out of context.. im not sure how how else you took those verses into your understanding)

I understand its plural. Yes.
So what do you understand about John 10:28
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
What do you understand when Jesus says, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

By theory, if a person kills after the person is saved.. his salvation is intact, IF salvation is true in the beginning.
If a person sins after salvation, salvation is still intact.
Is sin quantified in the Bible or categorized? Sin is still sin regardless if its murder or merely a lie.

1 John 1:8 - 1 John 2:2.

If you're saved and you lie by choice, are you bound to the lake of fire? According to the law, you don't even need to lie to sin, even a thoughts is a sin..

Lastly, If backsliders die a spiritual death.. then basically you're just saying God is a liar..

Romans 10:9,13
9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Did the Bible say.. you shall be saved conditionally? or you shall be saved.. as long as you continuously call upon the name of the Lord?
While you ponder on this,

What about Revelations 2?
Did God say, all of the church of Ephesus shall be sent to the lake of fire?

Okays what about Lot?
Questionaire..Is Lot today now in the lake of fire or at the bosom of Abraham?
Solomon? Did he not backslided too?
What about Jonah?

p/s: I think you've ignored a number of bible verses about salvation..

This post has been edited by zanness: Feb 5 2018, 09:00 AM

A part at a time.
Of course why i did not copy the whole chapter is to not show u a whole long list of things to read when there by default there already are..

but lets look into the verses you quoted. Interesting i should say.
Here's just one :

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.." - 2 Peter 2:20
This is your copy.
Look into who 'they' refer to.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction".
2 Peter 2:1.
and of course through out the entire verse, there are illustrations of how God cannot stand sin but yet giving grace to Lot. And also how God will protect the godly from temptation. So 'they' come in to the picture more in verse 12.
"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;"

My friend, 'they', to begin with, do you realize the group of people 'they' are the group of people that are not saved?.
Thats why we pick the the right books to read and even after reading, base it back to the Bible.

And once more back to Ezekiel 18:24.
Read from the start and you may realize that this is written to show the seriousness of sin (Ezekiel 18:20-24),the fairness of God judging sin (Ezekiel 18:25), and the grace God offers through Jesus (Ezekiel 18:27).

I can understand Catholics preach a very different picture. The continuation of salvation through works. And unfortunately, some Protestant churches still practice the old habits from Catholic churches.
Ephesians 2:8-9 ,"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast."
This is a very straightforward verse on the grace of salvation that is given freely.
Like I've said in previous posts, salvation must bear fruits. this portion is back to your statement on Christians with CONTINUOUS SINNING. Having salvation is not having the license to Sin. Cos if that is the case, then salvation, as i've said numerous times, is in DOUBT.

As in the parable of the seeds, as in Matthew 13, Luke 8, those who are TRULY saved, but without fruits (your term of CONTINUOUS SINNING), shall have a shorter time on earth. Matthew 7:19," Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."


But if you really study on 1 Peter 1, you will realize the Gospel elements are there, the essentials of what salvation is. I think you've also mistaken that by quoting 1 Peter 1:14-17 without realizing the true meaning of these verses. You are partially right. God is stating that in Him there is NO SIN. Hence the 'because it is written' part comes about. This then, my friend, is a quote from the old testament where Moses is condemning sons of Aaron, and then God spoke to Aaron and Moses about a whole list of instructions on unclean animals and why they must follow this ( The BE YE HOLY PART) to sanctify themselves. My friend you can read this all in Leviticus 10 to Leviticus 11. This is when God ask them to be holy for God is HOLY. However, this is BY THE LAW. By the LAW we have to do a lot of things to STAY HOLY. But by the grace of God and Jesus' blood, we DO NOT NEED to be judged by the law. This is written in Acts 10:15, "And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."

So my friend, once more you have missed a very important point in 1 Peter 1:14-17.
God is stating His Holiness.

And as usual, Hebrews 12.
Read Hebrews 12 and it is about the running the race of life with patience, enduring the chastening of God. And in fact, right after Hebrews 12:15, the example is about Esau being impatient losing his birthright. the Bible even explained on fail of the grace of God in events people like yourself might misinterpret it, which whereby there will be roots of bitterness springing up for trouble.
Read on Hebrews 12 and you will find Hebrews 12:24, where Jesus is already our mediator of the new covenant.

I'm actually replying chronologically based on your reply.

And when you mentioned why i'm putting up verses after verses.
I'm not throwing verses at you. On the contrary, i'm showing you what the Bible says. Unless your Bible says it differently. Exactly my point right.
Solomon did not went to hell.
Salvation is once. not multiple times. (Hebrews 10:10, 12)
Once, forever.

Read on Ephesians 4. What happens when a sinful person accepts Jesus Christ and receive the Holy Spirit?
Hebrews 10: 17, 18, 26
No more offering FOR SIN, but of course punishment is inevitable. I believe if you read on the chatisement, you would understand and co-relate to this portion.

No offence but I do not have time yet to touch on your book.
I will in time. But at least to one point I agree.
Do not rely on shop lot church / megachurch etc.

Neither do I rely on pastors for their advice. Haven't I been feeding you meat all this while?

1 John 5:2,3
"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous"

The verse above explains, if a person is saved, if a person loves God, he will keep God's commandments; and will subsequently bear fruits.
If a person is NOT SAVED, naturally, the sinful nature will be dominant and hence will continue sinning.

This is a very similar verse with what James had to say with faith with works which most Catholics will misinterpret it as to salvation that require works.

James 2:17
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

Read on to 1 John 5:11
"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son"

Eternal...
How again do you have ETERNAL LIFE?

1 John 5:10
" He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son "

ETERNAL LIFE is by BELIEVING on the Son of God; once again, salvation is by grace that God gives to us.. BY BELIEVING.

The Bible was very straightforward in 1 John 5:13, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

Did God say, eternal or did God say temporary? Did God say for as long as you believe, that is as long as your salvation will be?

Eternal is forever.

Then I know certain confused people will ask, this is the license to sin?
1 John 5:18 clearly explains it.
" We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

A continuous sinful life only reflects one thing.. that the person may not be born of God to begin with.

Read on..

1 John 5:16
"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it."

John here is addressing to the brethen, to saved Christians.
it doesn't mean Christians have the license to sin. I've explained as above, God will chastise who He loves. And those that love God, will try to obey God's commandments.

BUT CLEARLY IT IS WRITTEN..

...HIS BROTHER SIN A SIN....

Christians are not perfect, and will still sin, but this sin WILL NOT affect your salvation. Pray for forgiveness because God will punish our sin one way or the other. But also be thankful God protects our salvation. But does it mean LETS SIN FOREVER AND GO ON A SIN SPREE?
Christians CAN SIN UNTO DEATH...

Some people question, due to Sin, will you LOSE YOUR SALVATION..
WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY????

1) What does it mean to be saved?
Romans 8
Once you are saved, the Holy Spirit renews our body. Our body is dead because of sin (initially) but is now alive due to the Holy Spirit (after you are saved.)
The Holy Spirit in us helps us in prayers.
helps us in doing God's will.
Romans 8:13, Romans 8:14
" For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God"

So what is the criteria to be the sons of God? YOU MUST BE LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD IN YOU.. DID GOD SAY, FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE LED?

GOD SAID, FOR AS MANY....

so of cos naturally it leads to question no.2

The Holy Spirit LEAVES the person if a he continuously sin. WRONG

2) The Holy Spirit NEVER leaves the person.
John 14:16
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"

Ephesians 1:13
" In who ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory"

VERY DIRECT VERSES OF GOD'S ASSURANCE TO OUR HOLY SPIRIT.

unless someone preaches another kind of type of spirit..

3) Your salvation is permanent; WHY MUST YOU KNOW AND BE CONFIDENT?

Romans 8:16,17
"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

Clearly YOU MUST KNOW.. your salvation is permanent.

And why MUST YOU KNOW?

Hebrews 4:16
" Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."

We must know that we have God to help in times of trouble, in times when Satan puts Christians through difficulties of life.


YOUR SALVATION IS DEFINITE, that is IF YOUR SALVATION IS TRUE.. The biggest question shouldnt be IF YOUR SALVATION IS PERMANENT?

The right question should be..

WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE IN AS YOUR SALVATION? Is christianity a RELIGION to you?

P/s: stop reading un-biblical books or articles which have no biblical foundations.. some false prophets in the world just want to make money than giving glory to God.

This post has been edited by zanness: Feb 20 2018, 03:50 PM

My friend, the videos you show are the same things which you say.
From your angle, I can understand this.. You are confused. You yourself know it.. You've said that you need to read the whole context to understand what the verse is implying.
For example, in the old testament times, you need to be 100% clean from head to toe before approaching God and entering the tabernacle, else be instantly killed by lightning by God.
We don't see this anymore.

If you read the old testament and study it, you will realize, that the entire old testament is a preparation for the coming messiah.

Example, Why did Moses lift the snake up on a cross ? Why was Moses instructed to ONLY knock the rock once? Why did Abraham sacrifice the lamb instead of his Son?

The verses the people use in the video only shows to me, they are taking Bible verses and matching it together as they want to suit their doctrine.. Is that the biblical way?

To be honest, I know none of these people.
But from the biblical backings they use, they totally ignored verses about salvation (not to mention they are not using KJV or Hebrew bible to begin with)



Take for example
Luke 8:13
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

My friend, don't you see the whole picture?
This is the parable of the seed. The speaker of the video bluntly take this.. and ignored verses 14, 15. The parable of the seed is talking to how the gospel affects people. verses 13, fall away is backslide christians. As I've also mentioned, there is a sin, a sin unto death. This is what it means by fall away. It does not mean hell. This verse in fact is a supporting verse to why Jesus instructed discipleship, the main reason why christians have to be rooted in the word, to ward temptation (Romans and 1 Corinthians has plenty to talk about this)
Whereas, verses 14 is about those which do mean hell because the seed has not been inside the heart at all to begin with.


Another verse he did not understand again, Revelation 3:11, this is about pre-destined crowns in a pre-destined context.

Faith alone is not in the Bible.
James 2 :14 ,"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"
James 2:17 ," Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

the book of James is a hard to digest book due to the fact that the author himself is of high intellectual.
Basically, what James is telling is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to ONLY have faith but DO NOT have works.

Why is it impossible?
because naturally, with faith, your works will come.. This is what it means.. as explained further by James in the subsequent verses and concluded in James 2:20, "20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"





I do not think viewing random videos by random speakers is wise.
For example, your speakers uses another bible verse for John 16:1 ,"All this I have told you so that you will not go astray"

WOW if i didnt know the Bible well enough I'll be confused!

Because what John 16:1 in KJV is ,"These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended."

ASTRAY VS OFFENDED!

VERY BIG DIFFERENCE MY FRIEND.

Instead of helping your Christian growth, it confuses even more.

Like you've said also, always read the Bible and the Bible tells you everything. From what I hear and what I see, these preachers are mixing personal opinions with selected Bible verses making it VERY confusing to those who are weak in Bible knowledge.

How else do you think I have answers to every verse these people claim that salvation can be lost if not through reading of the Bible.

This post has been edited by zanness: Feb 21 2018, 09:00 AM

Exactly. This is why even when reading the Bible, the right Bible should be used. And it should be reference back to the hebrew Language.

John 16:1 has such a BIG DIFFERENCE in its meaning if being manipulated.
To be honest, this is the first time i've read John 16:1 differently where the word used is ASTRAY lols..

Archaic English, though is complicated, but is able to keep the biblical value.
I rather read the Bible full of its value, than confuse myself with modern translated versions.