Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+

 LYN Catholic Fellowship V02 (Group), For Catholics (Roman or Eastern)

views
     
SUSzamorin
post Jul 20 2018, 08:37 AM

Resident Carouser
*******
Senior Member
6,775 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
From: Malaysia Darul Harapan
QUOTE(Haledoch @ Jul 20 2018, 07:41 AM)
I did try to reason the question from the atheistic point of view. Because the question was from an atheist.

It doesn't make sense for an atheist to form a question using something from the Bible (which he doesn't believe already) when he has no knowledge or has limited knowledge on the subject. The question is based around the existence of evil. Obviously the question being given must first assume that evil is real and does exist in this world. Do you agree?

Hence, it is from that reason why I am questioning an atheist such as you as why do you believe that evil exist when you do not believe God exist?

Where do you based your moral from? Is it based on the current government laws? Do they hold the highest moral standard? As you know each country has their own laws. Which of the country in this world has the highest moral standard? Do we based our moral on their standard? What about Hitler's government called Nazi? Are their laws evil or good? Can you define what is evil from the book of Atheism?
*
Again another fallacy. Nobody was asking you to use the Bible to answer the question nor was the riddle based on the bible but since this is a catholic thread, you get your attributes of god and evil from the Bible. So what else can you base it on? If one were to ask the Mulsims, surely it won't be the Bible, it will be the Quran and they will have to or attempt to answer it based on the attributes of evil and God in the Quran.

We all agree that evil exists, including religions, it goes without saying and is the central premise of the riddle.

You don't know what atheism is (I am not trying to be rude), that's why you are asking the preceding questions. Why should we not believe that evil exists when its real? the same validity doesn't apply to god. Morals or what we base our morals on have nothing to do with atheism. You really think atheists have no morals or we are atheists because we like to commit evil? The opposite is most likely true. Atheism is based on knowledge and critical thinking not ignorance.

I put it to you the only difference between an atheist and a theist really is that we believe in one god less.

Hitler and the Nazi Party members were mostly Catholics (more than 90% of them), please don't attempt to conflate all evils on atheism. Your former Pope; Pope Benedict XVI (Ratzinger) was a Nazi party member!!!
-------------------------

Answering your questions


Where do you based your moral from?

My morals unlike a theist is subjective and mine is based mostly one a single moral code - The Golden Rule: "do ut des" or it is stated in the Bible as such: Do to others as you would have them do to you - Luke 6:31

Is it based on the current government laws?
No.

Do they hold the highest moral standard?
Atheists? Ofcourse not, there have been several atheist mass murderers in history but these people didn't base their killings on atheism unlike religious killings.

As you know each country has their own laws. Which of the country in this world has the highest moral standard?
Surveys have shown less crime is commited in countries which are less religious. So the inference here is less religion - more higher morals, there is no other explanation.

Do we based our moral on their standard? What about Hitler's government called Nazi? Are their laws evil or good? Can you define what is evil from the book of Atheism?
Answered above.

This post has been edited by zamorin: Jul 20 2018, 09:19 AM
SUSzamorin
post Jul 20 2018, 09:09 AM

Resident Carouser
*******
Senior Member
6,775 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
From: Malaysia Darul Harapan
QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 20 2018, 09:06 AM)
Hi Hi, in your last rebuttal, you couldn't provide me where you got your unqualified statistic, never mind, i take it, you don't know, you just blabbered nonsensically.

Here's another question (which I would like to see your answer). Where does evil and good come from if it wasn't define by God? what's your measuring stick?  smile.gif
*
Since you already claimed I don't know and blabbered nonsensically, it would make little difference to you what my answer is and I rather debate with those who are honest and don't engage in non-stops spins like you. Just a waste of time and effort.

QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 20 2018, 09:06 AM)
ps: and no, you can't use the Bible, "do ut des"
*
Go learn English first and then check if that's what I said or is it another one of your spin? Bullshitting about what I really said?

This post has been edited by zamorin: Jul 20 2018, 09:12 AM
SUSzamorin
post Jul 20 2018, 09:17 AM

Resident Carouser
*******
Senior Member
6,775 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
From: Malaysia Darul Harapan
QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 20 2018, 09:13 AM)
lol.

Where is do ut des based from? smile.gif
*
From my neighbour's pet goldfish. Go check or learn to ask nicely.

This post has been edited by zamorin: Jul 20 2018, 09:19 AM
SUSzamorin
post Jul 20 2018, 09:22 AM

Resident Carouser
*******
Senior Member
6,775 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
From: Malaysia Darul Harapan
QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 20 2018, 09:21 AM)
Such irony. Take a good look at what you did in denying others in here and rethink what you said about nice.  smile.gif
*
Glad you atleast know what an irony is, you are catching up smile.gif

Keep spinning, you just can't stop nature. Deny it seems. Who am I to deny anyone anything here? No one.

This post has been edited by zamorin: Jul 20 2018, 09:24 AM
SUSzamorin
post Jul 20 2018, 09:25 AM

Resident Carouser
*******
Senior Member
6,775 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
From: Malaysia Darul Harapan
QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 20 2018, 09:24 AM)
Well now that you know, you can't tell others of your own hypocrisy, that's good.

Don't talk about nice when you're not being nice at all.  smile.gif
*
Yeah, I don't intend to be nice to those who are rude to me or consistently engage in BS: do ut des

As you can see I got no issue debating nicely with others here who are not ignorant, arrogant, pompous, "Mr Know-it-all-empty-barrel" like you.

This post has been edited by zamorin: Jul 20 2018, 09:30 AM
SUSzamorin
post Jul 20 2018, 09:37 AM

Resident Carouser
*******
Senior Member
6,775 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
From: Malaysia Darul Harapan
QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 20 2018, 09:31 AM)
BUT Erm, here is the point. You don't realize how much of an irony you are of yourself.

what is BS to you may not be BS to others (example believe in God). for you to do that is rude.

So, you don't get to tell others to be nice to you, because to DO THAT, makes you a hypocrite.
*
Keep bullshitting. You can't stop bullsitting as much as a leopard can't change its stripes.

You started off rude and you expect courtesy? One of us surely is a hypocrite.
SUSzamorin
post Jul 20 2018, 09:38 AM

Resident Carouser
*******
Senior Member
6,775 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
From: Malaysia Darul Harapan
QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 20 2018, 09:32 AM)
Says the guy who can't back up his unqualified "statistic".

lol..ha ha ha....so much irony there.
*
Debating with you is as pointless as giving a diamond necklace to a monkey. A waste.

Yeah you were soo right about the stats and I was sooo wrong. I am in awe of "empty barrels"!

This post has been edited by zamorin: Jul 20 2018, 09:41 AM
SUSzamorin
post Jul 20 2018, 09:43 AM

Resident Carouser
*******
Senior Member
6,775 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
From: Malaysia Darul Harapan
QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 20 2018, 09:41 AM)
laugh.gif I was being nice to you when I asked you nicely where did you get your statistic of 0.001% from?

I said, statistic is a big word to use...you countered otherwise, saying it's a simple word..yet...you could not explain.

That's not very nice of you.  smile.gif

You don't simply barge in here attacking what theist believe (denying others of their testimony...that is RUDE!) and when asked to explain how you derived that figure...you just buat "don't know".
*
Bullshit! you were nice. You just couldn't contain your arrogance and don't forget we have a history of long and lengthy encounters just to counter your bullshit and your never ending spins, like this one.
SUSzamorin
post Jul 20 2018, 09:47 AM

Resident Carouser
*******
Senior Member
6,775 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
From: Malaysia Darul Harapan
QUOTE(Haledoch @ Jul 20 2018, 09:43 AM)
So you hold your own moral standard. Doesn't mean other follow your standard. What if someone hurt you one day and he justifies his action because he saw you as an evil person. Some will support and side with him, even if you suffer more. You cannot correctly say you are good and he is evil. Because everyone has their own moral standard and no one is trully good.

Same applies to countries. If our nation goes to war with say, Singapore, who can say for sure which country is evil here? When we don't know for sure, then evil should not be a sure and real thing. If we aren't really sure what evil really means and who represents it, then why do you want to use it as an argument to question the existence of God when its not really well defined from your book of atheism?
*
No atheism is out of scope on moral values, thats why you should know what an atheist clearly is. I try to follow the golden rule not all atheist are moral or have moral principles but most tend to have.


NO, If someone hurts me, I will try to get even, for me and for others and I am not going to be turning the other cheek. But that doesn't mean I go and harm others first or disproportionately. That would make me immoral by my own code: do ut des

No one is ever good or evil. Good and evil is intertwined in all of us but the more we follow moral codes, the more our better side comes to play.

Pls check what atheism is, its actually very simple.

EDIT:

atheism
ˈeɪθɪɪz(ə)m/Submit
noun
noun: atheism
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

It does not have anything to do with morals, how we live, what laws we follow, nothing of that sort. Only just this one :disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. Nothing else is in the scope of atheism.

This post has been edited by zamorin: Jul 20 2018, 09:51 AM
SUSzamorin
post Jul 20 2018, 09:48 AM

Resident Carouser
*******
Senior Member
6,775 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
From: Malaysia Darul Harapan
QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 20 2018, 09:47 AM)
Just stop your emo and answer the questions.  biggrin.gif

Where did you get the 0.001% from? how did you derive that figure? show everyone here your calculation

Where do ut des came from?
*
I pulled it out of a donkeys arse. Or was it yours?
SUSzamorin
post Jul 20 2018, 09:54 AM

Resident Carouser
*******
Senior Member
6,775 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
From: Malaysia Darul Harapan
QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 20 2018, 09:51 AM)
I don't really care where you pull it from but when you make a claim, you prove it, that's all. (Hey just using atheist rhetoric here)

Cannot answer but can blabber....ok no problem, at least we know what sort of person you are. smile.gif
*
Yeah, glad you do, keep it that way and F. off and don't bother asking me again, you won't be getting any response from me unless you ask me nicely minus your arrogance.

You keep providing me the ammo to insult you, I got no qualms using it.
I am gonna be as arrogant as you, with you.

This post has been edited by zamorin: Jul 20 2018, 09:57 AM
SUSzamorin
post Jul 20 2018, 10:18 AM

Resident Carouser
*******
Senior Member
6,775 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
From: Malaysia Darul Harapan
QUOTE(Haledoch @ Jul 20 2018, 10:16 AM)
I am not interested in what atheism stands for. For me atheism stands for foolishness.

If you can't realy tell who represents evil and if it really exist to you then the question from [C] will remain stupid to me. Makes no sense at all.

p.s. I will stop here. I agree with UW I don't want to mess and dirty this thread to answer a nonsensical question from an unbeliever. Forgive me.
*
If you choose to define an English word arbitrarily and any which way you like it according to your convenience or change it's meaning or definition, then language is emptied of all it's meaning and truth has no value to you. Glad to know that. I stop here too.

If it was nonsensical, I wonder what was the point in you trying to answer it in the past few pages if it was not a complete waste of time, oh well, nevermind.

This post has been edited by zamorin: Jul 20 2018, 10:22 AM
SUSzamorin
post Jul 20 2018, 01:02 PM

Resident Carouser
*******
Senior Member
6,775 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
From: Malaysia Darul Harapan
QUOTE(yeeck @ Jul 20 2018, 12:16 PM)
I saw it, and it wasn't convincing. Unlike you who didn't bother to read, so there.
*
Yeah, you watched it alright, that's why your response had nothing to do with his refutation. From asking what was the fraud to now you saw it coming. Keep up with your BS. In matters of religion I expect 90% of theists to spin/lie/BS just to defend their religion. Defending the indefensible. No surprise there.

This post has been edited by zamorin: Jul 20 2018, 01:07 PM
SUSzamorin
post Jul 20 2018, 02:19 PM

Resident Carouser
*******
Senior Member
6,775 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
From: Malaysia Darul Harapan
QUOTE(yeeck @ Jul 20 2018, 01:42 PM)
Is that the best you've got? LOL
*
What else can you say now that your BS stands exposed? I can give you more once you BS more.

This post has been edited by zamorin: Jul 20 2018, 02:30 PM
SUSzamorin
post Jul 20 2018, 08:38 PM

Resident Carouser
*******
Senior Member
6,775 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
From: Malaysia Darul Harapan
QUOTE(r2t2 @ Jul 20 2018, 05:06 PM)
I like to read the philosophical/theological debates regarding Epicurus ... one could never learn enough.
But could we do without the name callings and angry replies?  Cool minds produce wittier rhetoric, no?

I don't know much, but I always believe that until human beings understand our brain 100%, our method of communication through language is limited; and any discourse will only be best of effort.  Let's say we don't use English to debate among us, if there's a language that's not ambiguous, wouldn't it be clearer? (mute point here, since this is forum using mainly English language)

And until we could define the metaphysics of God or the higher being who created us, all our understanding of the nature related to God will just be approximation to what our brain could perceive.
*
I have no issues there. As you can see I started it very civilized but it almost always have the tendency to turn to insults and abuse. There is no harm if one can't answer the riddle, I mean none could for the past 2000+ years but to twist the riddle or add/subtract things to the riddle and then attempt to answer is pointless and defeats the purpose of the riddle, better not to attempt at all. Worst, instead of even attempting to answer, directly turn to insults. I have no qualms insulting back. Problem is not the ambiguity of the language but (deliberate) misinterpretation. Even changing what is the English dictionary definition of the word 'atheism'. Language has no meaning then.

and when many are doing that here sometimes one tend to tar everyone with the same brush and that's really unfair. I hope I didn't start with the insults with anyone here first..... and telling why one is falsely trying to solve the riddle is not an insult but merely stating the fact.

I deeply empathize with many here, afterall almost all of us were religious once and I know how emotional it can get when someone from outside your religion starts discrediting your religion but I don't think one should resort to BS and spins. It doesn't strengthen the defense but weakens it.

ps: Atleast you guys seem a lot more tolerant than folks of other religions, so that's a PLUS. smile.gif

This post has been edited by zamorin: Jul 20 2018, 11:50 PM
SUSzamorin
post Jul 21 2018, 12:00 AM

Resident Carouser
*******
Senior Member
6,775 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
From: Malaysia Darul Harapan
QUOTE(yeeck @ Jul 19 2018, 05:06 PM)
sounds like an atheist version of Sylar we have here.
*

Trust me, Sylar and me are poles apart. biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by zamorin: Jul 21 2018, 12:01 AM
SUSzamorin
post Jul 23 2018, 10:50 AM

Resident Carouser
*******
Senior Member
6,775 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
From: Malaysia Darul Harapan
QUOTE(Hades76 @ Jul 23 2018, 10:24 AM)
Some say the greatest mistake God made was religion....

Each to his own I guess....
*
There is a logical and more factual reasons why Humans "believe in/created" God and other supernatural entities with zero evidence. Thing is we can tell the theists a 1000 times but they have already concluded that the "scientific evidence" is itself false or dismiss/ignore them because their faith doesn't permit them to question their conditioning.
SUSzamorin
post Jul 23 2018, 11:13 AM

Resident Carouser
*******
Senior Member
6,775 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
From: Malaysia Darul Harapan
QUOTE(yeeck @ Jul 23 2018, 10:53 AM)
Erroneous. The origin of the differences is due to the fall.
*
What fall? Like I said - all based on zero evidence or evidence that has already been exposed as false.
SUSzamorin
post Jul 23 2018, 11:19 AM

Resident Carouser
*******
Senior Member
6,775 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
From: Malaysia Darul Harapan
QUOTE(yeeck @ Jul 23 2018, 10:58 AM)
To begin to address these questions, one must consider what is meant by the word 'evil' here? Most people have a general idea of what evil is but what are some specific things that are evil? Is murder evil? Most would agree that it is. What about stealing? What about lying? What about “little” things like viewing pornography, drinking, gambling, or smoking? When we start identifying things as evil, we begin to realize that we are evil. The Bible says there are none that does good (Psalm 14:3). If we want God to do “something” about evil, we must realize that we are asking Him to deal with each one of us personally.

What exactly then do we want God to do about evil? Should He immediately remove anyone that commits an evil act? That might have sounded appealing a few minutes ago but if each of us were to be included, then it suddenly doesn't sound so appealing anymore.

Of course, there are those people who excuse their own vices as “not so bad” and only want God to deal with the “really bad” things. I guess that means that something like telling “white lies” is OK but the “bold faced” liars get zapped. This is a sort of special pleading by some people who want some degree of evil to be acceptable – just enough for them to get by. They want God to deal with evil but not their evil. They are saying, “Zap everyone else, God, just don't zap me!” You can see how this doesn't really solve anything because everyone wants to excuse their own sin. The Bible says that everyone is right in his own eyes but the Lord ponders the heart (Proverbs 21:2).

If anyone wants God to deal with evil by removing it, it's an all or nothing proposition.

A second alternative is to restrain people from doing evil. That is, God should simply not allow anyone to do evil. The problem with this is that evil is a free will issue. If we were to use the 10 Commandments as a standard of understanding what is right and wrong, there are some points everyone would agree on. “Thou shalt not kill” (Exodus 20:13), for example, would be one of those things that most people would agree is wrong. We wouldn't have a problem if God took away our desire or ability to kill. But what about the commandment that says, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” (Exodus 20:3)? Would the critic be agreeable if God forced everyone to worship Him? Somehow I think he wouldn't like this option. It's a similar dilemma to the one above where we want God to deal with the evil in everyone else, but we want God to let us continue in our own evil.

To be fair to the critic, though, I wouldn't like this option too much either. If God eliminates our ability to do evil, He also eliminates our ability to choose to do good. I want to worship God. I don't want to be a robot who only performs a task because that what it's programmed to do and it doesn't know anything else. Perhaps God too doesn't want this because He has obviously decided not to deal with evil this way.

A third option is this: give people the free will to decide to do good or evil. Everyone chooses to do evil, of course, and the unrepentant will reap the just punishment for their actions. However, God could make a way of forgiveness available to those who repent of their evil. This is the option that God has chosen. God made this option available at a great personal cost to Himself. In doing so, He has demonstrated that He is both able and willing to do something about evil. He has also demonstrated another characteristic that Epicurus did not mention in his riddle; besides being omnipotent and merciful, God is also just.

https://rkbentley.blogspot.com/2011/07/epic...em-of-evil.html
*
In your lengthy response you haven't even answered the riddle. All you have done is dismiss it by quoting the other attributes of god. For eg:-

What difference does it make if God is omnipotent and merciful and also just, when the riddle questions why he is unable to prevent evil when he is omnipotent? Then he is not omnipotent else he is malevolent.

This post has been edited by zamorin: Jul 23 2018, 11:20 AM
SUSzamorin
post Jul 23 2018, 02:33 PM

Resident Carouser
*******
Senior Member
6,775 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
From: Malaysia Darul Harapan
QUOTE(yeeck @ Jul 23 2018, 12:23 PM)
The suposed riddle is based on false premises in the first place. What is evil? To Greeks like Epicurus, perhaps infanticide is not evil.
*
Either you don't understand English or logic or you are attempting to spin this.

The riddle does not ask you to qualify evil. So whether Epicurus considered infanticide evil is not relevant. What is relevant is only if the person answering the riddle believes there is evil and if so, where does it comes from when you believe that god exists.

3 Pages < 1 2 3 >Top
 

Change to:
| Lo-Fi Version
0.1070sec    0.75    7 queries    GZIP Disabled
Time is now: 11th December 2025 - 05:03 PM