vs


who will win and who's u'r favorite

it depends wat item both of them get...
if AM got 2 bashers, i think AM will win...if FV's attack speed is high, maybe he will win...

This post has been edited by smokey: Jan 19 2007, 12:14 PM

depend on player

Early game, AM will have the edge due to mana break dealing a lot of damage, but void shouldn't be going near him in the first place. Midgame depends quite heavily on player items. Endgame, i'd say the win would definitely go to void. A native bash, timewalk to chase blink, and a 6 sec chronosphere make void IMBA.

That scenario is assuming both players have a significantly high amount of skill and common sense. Item builds matter a lot in this case, depending on how much they farm. Whoever farms more will definitely win.

cat and mouse game early game. late game, ts will pawn antimage, because he can timewalk go near am, ulti, and bash am until am die.

well actually if both were equal level players i think am will win. If am could control early and mid game sure will outlevel and outfarm void. early and mid void with slow slow aspd doesnt do much. even if being chronod am still can blink away because voids bash isnt good yet in mid/early to stay alive and not lose money while am can cheese void from the start.... my opinion.
i like void anyway with mom and butterfly. hes like 50% more fun than am to play.

This post has been edited by Breadman: Jan 19 2007, 09:50 PM

imo, AM always conquer early game and FV always conquer late gme.

if it just a fite without skill then am will b win

the title is: Dota Battle "Offiicial" anti-mage vs faceless void
i wondering what the "Official" and "Unofficial" mean...
what the different between the Official Antimage and Unofficial Antimage??
got something like that??????

Lol, anyway Faceless is the new unbalance hero of the v6 , last time it was either Naix,Bone,Sven,Medusa,Morphling (v5)

So I think FV wins hands down, but ofcourse don't take account into player skills, luck etc

1v1 I think only troll warlord can go against him, even then, he got 6 sec and thats enough to kill any hero 1v1

OT
AM with battlefury question:

will mana break (mana burn) splash while damage splash ( IIRC bash do splash but % goes down)

especially when he equip with many basher...
ulti, then go to do melee atk to enemy...

good point, no matter wat item u got, if u are coward, what hero u used with great item also lost.

Just to share my views only, i wrote this for one of my friend who is new to Dota and doesn't convince about Faceless Void as the best Dota hero or one of the best Hero in Dota. This is not about the best farmer, best lane ctrl for Dota hero, its about the overall best hero in terms of its own skill + equip with appropiate weapons to become the BEST of the BEST Dota hero.

Don't flame me if you don't agree coz different people have different view about their best heroes in Dota.

Faceless Void in High Lvl Dota Tourney Play CAL:
CAL is Cyberathlete Amatuer League. It is a large online electronic sports league operated by the Cyberathlete Professional League that allows players to test their skills against each other in a variety of multiplayer games. It not only hosts DotA games, but also CS, WC3 ladder, Starcraft, and Battlefield 2. All the games played in CAL are very competitive, therefore in DotA, people want the best hero choices in a team. In a CAL DotA team you need 4 things: lane control, AoE, disables, and survivability. Faceless Void has 3 of those, only have disadvantage on lane control as a melee hero. However, he is a great carry-over hero for the late game, due to the other 3 factors in becoming a good tournie-viable hero.
Col.Warr1ck is one of the current top player that uses Faceless Void in CAL matches. His nick name appears when loading the latest Dota map game.

Faceless Void (Agility hero):
(This hero is humble and down to earth)

Check out what Faceless replies when sending him an order.
How may i aide you.
How can this old one help?
My strength is yours.
My ancestors call.
We'll share our ways.
I pledge my loyalty.
I'll need it once again.
I'll try my best

Skills:
1) Timewalk 1300 range (free blink dagger but much better range and cooltime $2150)
Can run away from enemy and also make sure enemy cant run far away.
He can timewalk away even when got ensnare or earthbind + etcs..
He can timewalk away when encounter gangbang ambush or too many confusing images. Time walk back when less enemy heroes or when the images disappear to kill ehm.

2)Backtrack 25% chance (free low version of Linken Sphere $5500)
Passive skills - doesn't require mana, activated by itself.
One of the best defend, avoid 100% dmg both physical, magical damage like nukes/crits/ult/ dmg return hits and even permabash attck.
Good chances to block Wrath, finger, laguna, A Dooms, Sunder, Dismember, Culling Blade, Assasinate, + etcs..!!
Backtrack stack with Butterfly 25% evasion and BT also stack with Radiance miss attk 8% make faceless even harder to get hit by attks or get permabash.
Get a BKB activates it, Faceless Void will be as hard as diamond, even damage return will not scratch him at all.

3)Timelock - 25% chance (free basher $3220)
Passive skills - doesn't require mana, activated by itself when attck enemy
Make enemy stun and see the stars day & nite.

4)Chonosphere - 6 secs (totally disable the enemy for free good 6 secs of hard bashing = 3X bashers to achieve abt 100% stun + his Timelock max $9660)
This is the ult skills, where Faceless void can kill up to 5 heroes /3 - 4 images inside the Chronos with the rite item built of coz.

Recomended items:
1) Butterfly
2) Radiance
3) MOM/Satanic/S&Y
4) Burize
5) Battlefury (killing 5 heroes/ 3-4images inside chronos is possible with these splash dmg attck item)
6) Treads/BOT

Optional:
BKB - if some noobies mass blademails with dmg return passive magical attck.
Replace treads/BOT with BKB, faceless void timewalk 1300 range is far enuf before enemy can catch up, End game, he fight face to face and don't have to run anyway.

For Fun build:-Manta Style - depletes enemy mana, more images means more images in chronos for gangbang party.
-Book of Necrominion - depletes enemy mana, more monsters inside chronos hlp to kill enemy (super gangbang if activate together with manta style)
-Butterfly with Mjollnir. Enemy heroes with their watever images get lightning hit in chronos multiple times die very fast.

Tell me how you can kill a agility hero which doesnt depend much on mana, hard to get hit/permabash, and lastly super long 6 secs total disable + permabash skill which render other heroes/images as a punching bag to get smack nicely.

Yeah, FV can beat AM and any other heroes. I'll definitely support FV. He's truelly the overall best hero IMO if not for others pros, one of the best Dota hero.
He is also the only heroes tat i know can solo kill 5 heroes / 3-4 images heroes inside chronos with appropiate items mid/end game. No other Dota heroes can do it solo like Faceless Void aka Darkterror.

I have few replays using Faceless Void vs insane AI Heroes. I use FV and can beat all the insane AIs.

Faceless Void vs 2 insane AI V6.38b
Faceless Void vs 3 insane AI V6.39
Faceless Void vs 5 insane AI V6.39

Too bad, cant post the replays here for fun viewing.

Cheers,
v_viper88

This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 21 2007, 02:55 PM

x_X insane AI?

Don beat AIs, beat human players! You can't and must not take AI's seriously

for me,FV will win for sure .....by the time magina got his 2X basher, FV mayb got 1 hyper + 1 yasha + 1 vanguard..then gg for magina d

Check out what Faceless replies when sending him an order.
How may i aide you.
How can this old one help?
My strength is yours.
My ancestors call.
We'll share our ways.
I pledge my loyalty.
I'll need it once again.
I'll try my best

^ rofl... these are quotes by the Draenei, and you make it sound exclusively for the Faceless Void. How DotA can make one naive to the core whao...

This post has been edited by Sesshoumaru: Jan 22 2007, 10:03 AM

I played Dota for about 3 yrs ++ already. Played on CC, Lancraft, Hamachi but nowdays mostly on Bnet pubs and Singapore CLAN Muzu game. I'm dont consider myself very pro but more above average Dota player. Sure have alot fun bashing noobies at PUb but I'll say play in Clan game or with pros will surely change the way playing Dota and its an eye opener

Loardareon Server
id: v_viper

Normally i dont save replay for the games i've played but since one of my friend just started playing Dota about 1 mth and doesnt convince about Faceless Void power, i sent him some of my game replays. Recently due to the Taiwan quake international link very slow for Bnet, i purposely play with insane AIs just to show my friend that faceless void is not a lousy weak hero. He can beat multiple heroes with the appropiate item.

Most noobies cant even beat the Insane AIs. Try play vs 2, 3 or 5 insane AI and see whether can win onot?

Don't get me wrong thinking that i only play with insane AI , i play in real DOta games most of the time and i beat countless of real Dota players already. Sure i got beaten many times also, but i've learn new strategy and improve my game.

We PWNS We OWNS. Best Dota 5v5 line up.. Faceless, Enigma, Silencer, Zeus, CM. (Silencer global silent, Faceless Timewalk and Chronos, CM frost bite, frost nova and ult.. Zeus Arch lightning, Bolt lightning and ult, Enigma Midnite pulse and ult Black hole...can your team survive this combos?)


Cheers,
v_viper88



This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 23 2007, 08:57 AM

to be honest FV can can pawn sladar at lvl 1 with the bash upgrade both, seriously every bash can made a little amount of damage.

Well, just to make it more interesting ma. Anything wrong ar?
Some other dota heroes oso got the same replies like FV but some have different replies. I didn't say only Faceless void have those replies. Only u think like tat...

Don't know why some forumer here can jump into conclusion so fast without thinking using brain....

Cheers,
v_viper88


This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 22 2007, 11:04 AM

i think the faceless void will win..
get 2 basher + mask of madness + his ult, lolz...
anti drain his mana ? let him.. he doesn`t need so much.. just a little only.. and his mana poor not too high, anti ult won`t damage too much to him .. so, faceless void will win in a great chance..

Cheers mate! Looks like imply isn't part of your vocabulary! ROFL! xD

This post has been edited by Sesshoumaru: Jan 22 2007, 01:23 PM

Yes, faceless void will win if at the same high lvl play with about same dmg item.

Normaly i dun get 2 bashers or MOM, just max agilty, IAS dmg item and high dmg weapon.

I've vs many AM before tat max bashers ..
AM got treads, 2 bashers, whereas i have treads, butterfly, wraiths and yet still win.
FV will bash more often especially with butterfly. With Chronos, i've already have a starting upper hand bash AM.

FV backtrack skill can hlp him 25% chance to avoid 100% most of the physical, magic dmg and most important avoid being permabash. With butterfly, its close to 50% miss attk liao...

AM Mana shield only reduce magical dmg by 40%.. cant block physical dmg or stun or also..

You decide who will get bashed and stun more often?



Cheers,
v_viper88


This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 22 2007, 04:03 PM

if both player in same level
in early game, am won
mid game, depend luck
in late game, fv won.

Can you explain why early game AM win?
What is your early game looks like, lvl 1 - 6 or < level 16 ?

Game starts with:

AM -454 hp
Str-16
Agi-22
Int-15

FV - 473hp
Str-17
Agi-21
Int-15

Early game without any skill point, FV still leading in HP.

Around level 10, FV already just max Timelock, Backtrack, Chronos skill and just 1 point for Timewalk. At tat level without any items both heroes, FV still wins vs AM. You know why?

1. Timelock (25% bash owns)
2. Backtrack (25% miss attk, no dmg)
3. Chronos (100% cant move)

Wat AM can do about it?

Cheers,
v_viper88

u try n c if u use am hit the enemy range creep when u lv1 n learned mana break.
u count u need how many hit to kill tat raange creep.
then same for fv.

same theory to both of them if their at lv1 fight till death n no run......
i dun think tat fv learn bash can kill am in lv1.

AM can kill range creep faster at lvl 1? hmm...
I've just tested, since you said AM lvl 1 with lvl 1 mana break can kill faster.

AM lvl 1 with mana break need 6 hits to kill a range creep.
FV lvl 1 with Timelock only need 5 hits to kill a range creeps. (Timelock not even kick in yet also, if kick in maybe only 4 hits will get the job done.)

So if AM lvl 1 with mana break lvl 1 vs FV lvl 1 timelock lvl 1, FV will win.

Go try it out and c if dun belief me.

AM mana break only depletes mana at the beginning, once the enemy mana no more then only reduce enemy's hp.

At lvl 1, AM mana breaks 16 mana per hit. Normal attck 46-50 dmg
AM lvl 1 - 454 hp

At lvl 1 FV mana pool is 195. With Timelock 10% chance deal Bonus dmg and lock enemy for 1 secs. Normal attck is 58-64 dmg. (Dmg oso higher min by 12 )
FV lvl 1 - 473hp

AM will need about 12 hits (12x16) to depletes FV mana (195) before can deal extra dmg. His normal attack is 45-50 already lower by 12 compare to FV normal attck which is 58-64.

At lvl 1, evey hit from FV attk at AM minimum will reduce AM HP by 12-14 dmg more and once the 10% timelock kicks in, bonus dmg is even higher.

So by the time AM hit FV 12 times, only then he'll have about extra 4 dmg more then FV for the every next hit. But by tat time, FV timelock most likely kicks in deal extra dmg and lock 1 secs means 1 free punch at AM dealing dmg 58-64 just like tat.

After about 12 times exchanging blow, i think either one hero will already dead at that time. Do the maths and it will shows FV will win at lvl 1 direct fight.

Cheers,
v_viper88



This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 23 2007, 04:27 PM

you guys discussing on a topic that is so subjective.

It all depends on the game. If you farm and level well, doesn't matter which hero..be it Anti Mage or FV...both will be good.

lol owned 2 birds with 1 stone

basically both hero have below average hp but either one make use of disabler first (FV's ulti or AM with guinsoo) will ensure the victory at end game, thats my 2 cent

This post has been edited by Dark Lynx: Jan 23 2007, 09:18 PM

seriously , if i'm host/LAN game i can avoid ts ulti

Wow.. tats sumthing i hardly see AM player get.. a GUINsoo...to vs FV.
Its not cheap guinsoo... hmmm...

FV can TW from 1300 range away and suprise attck AM, slowed him and immediately cast Chronos..

Most AM will just try blink and run away coz scared trap inside Chronos....

Cheers,
v_viper88

unfortunately its true
no no, guinsoo is the main point here, of course he doesn't buy ONLY a guinsoo to fight against FV..thats stupid ain't it?
AM blink away? what if you're the AM that is blinking in? aha evade after blink?
whichever the case, the first one flies in (FV or AM) will be in disadvantage because the other can escape away, you are just seeing from one point of view

tell me what build should an AM get to fight versus a faceless void?
more HP? increase damage? insane evasion? (few butterfly) zapper style? (dagon)
well any of the above, when you use to fight against an average faceless will also win against you
he simply needs to Chronos on you (did someone mentioned he can evade chronos? give a better reason please, a LAN host or not doesn't show any sense how you can evade a chronos )
an average player will only responds (from a sudden attack from AM) right after 2-3 attacks, so u still have some time to chronos before you are dead
if his chronos fails, he also have backtrack and bash
now to make matters worst, anti mage is a melee character that relies heavily on his normal attack (since FV not a caster)

now theres few scenario i can think of when an anti mage can kill a FV (with clear results)
1) FV was caught off guard by sudden attack from AM (with few bashers). He got bashed non stop and die before can cast Chronos
2) AM guinsoed FV and kill him before he can cast ulti (at least 5-6 wacks on minimum during guinsooed time )
3) AM got few heart of tarrasque and butterfly, FV cant kill him within the time AM was inside Chronos (FV damage not strong enough probably )

i do realise FV take a long time to cast ulti before that he will get bash by AM but that do not mean FV will lose because he still have a lil mana left to timewalk

Everybody neglects common sense on the side of the AM. What AM would fight after getting hit with a chronosphere? Unless chrono can take out AM at one go, chances are AM would blink away to heal and come back later. Chrono can be factored out till very late game, if FV has reached the permabash/insane damage stage. Without chrono, it's harassing heaven for AM.

Mana break depletes hp, AND deals damage equal to mana burned at the same time. Good blink/break AMs will make it almost impossible for FV to farm or do anything useful early/mid game. No AM is going to stand and trade blows till he dies. Blink has a 5sec cd for a reason. Thus, chances are AM is more likely to ambush FV than vice versa. Late game, FV might be able to prevail, if he managed to farm some decent items. Then again, if it's AM vs FV solo, AM would be pushing midgame to prevent FV from reaching late game.

Given the base skills that both AM and FV have in hand, FV fare much better than AM.

How many items does AM need to kill a FV in a fight? Honestly, IMO I believe that in early phases, one MOM is good enough for FV to resist or even counter any harrassment by AM. Find it hard that the base evasion (Backtrack) and base bashing (Timelock) would lose to AM base skills (Mana break and Blink).

Have yet to see a good AM win against a good FV, thus I say FV will win.

dont forget AM have very fast base attack speed n fv attack slow so every 1.5 attack of AM only equals to 1 fv attack i think la

AM vs faceless? Sure faceless will win la...
FV>>>>>most heroes 1 on 1 (except maybe QOP)
5 on 5 faceless aso is more useful than AM, thanks to his ulti of imbaness

This is how FV fight in 1v1, he attk till both enemy and his life is half/red and his Timelock kicks in, FV will cast the Chronos and finish tat guy.

For vs AM, since AM depletes his mana, FV will Timewalk to AM slowing down his attck speed so cant depletes FV fast enuf, timelock kicks in and bang Chronos!..

AM mana breaks need to breaks all the enemy mana 1st before can add extra dmg to his base attck damage. Its not dmg both hp and mana at the same time as far as i know lar.. You can see there is no + base dmg at AM when u select the mana break skill.

You can try use AM lvl1 with mana break lvl 1 vs FV lvl 1 without any skill, see who die first. FV lead the dmg minimun by 12 hp with every blow at AM. About 10 hits, AM wll die 1st.

At higher lvl, AM agility is fast and with lvl4 mana break, he's can clear enemy fast and deals alot dmg.

FV wont just chronos directly at AM, tats a bad move coz every1 know AM can blink away. Best is TW slow him, timelock and imediately Chronos.

Cheers,
v_viper88

Reply in [COLOR=blue]blue[COLOR=blue]

Cheers,
v_viper88

[COLOR=blue][COLOR=blue]Ya. agree with u[COLOR=blue]

AM got slighty Faster attack but FV got Backtrack 25%, Bash 25%.

With Backtrack and Bash, FV can kill AM already in 1v1 even without chronos.

So can see who got more advantage here?

Cheers,
v_viper88

So a decent AM with a very itchy "b" finger won't blink away on seeing FV timewalk in at a bad spot?

ROTFLMAO. Try playing AM sometime. Spiritbreaker's aura doesn't show extra damage, neither does Ursa's ulti or swipes.

Mana Break. Plus higher attack and base move speed (320 vs FV 300). FV will get the heck harassed out of him. Timewalk needs 120 mana, which is quite a lot at early/midgame.

Can u blink away if got stun by Timelock?

FV or AM can kill range creep faster at lvl 1? What does this shows?
AT lvl 1 FV kill AM in direct 1v1.
At higher lvl AM mana break dmg sure help increase more dmg but at mid/end game FV got more advantage in slow, evade, stun and long stun.

FV TW slow and TL stun cant harrassed AM?

Most of the time, AM will think twice or more before want to harrass FV.
Even AM get basher, FV got alreadr have TL 25% and BT 25 %, who will get stunned more? High attck dmg & movement wont help much if got stun by FV.

If AM got stun by FV, most likely AM will be dead 1st in a 1v1 direct fight early/mid/end game.

Yeah, who got a free 25 % basher 1st?

Cheers,
v_viper88



This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 25 2007, 11:04 PM

timelock stun is pretty unreliable at early levels while mana break always hits. Level 7 +64 damage....better than a relic. Your free basher ain't going to do much without attspeed and damage to back it up. Level 9...10 hits from FV = ~15 hits from AM. Mana pool 3-4xx all gone. Void is a nice 200 nuke too. Maybe FV'll get 3 bash hits in if you're lucky. Bear in mind AM will be chasing or running away with blink, while FV will be stuck with inferior ms and no mana.

AM harassing usually means 1 or 2 hits more for AM due to higher attspeed and movespeed. Harassing, hit and run, blink/break, NOT head on fighting. Add creep denying into the combo, and FV will be lucky to get his ulti by AM lv 7. Early game, mana break HURTS. Midgame, FV will have his work cut out against AM's superior level/items. Lategame, FV will only be able to win if he has gotten to farm a decent item or two.

And as for killing ranged creep faster at level 1....well, i wouldn't stop you from crossing the whole creep wave to get to my ranged creep. And i'll happily 1v1 you if you attack first in the middle of the wave.

Timelock Unreliable? FV is also agility hero, at lvl 7 or more will normaly get about 1-2 wraiths and tread, chances of timelock kick in good and it will deal extra bonus dmg. + good time chronos will give AM a good bashing already.
AM has no basher, its either he blink away or gamble his life to stand 1v1 vs FV.

AM with lvl 4 mana break 4 only add additional 38 dmg not 64.
You can check here.
http://dotastrategy.com/hero-11-MaginaTheAntiMage.html
Its my mistake saying there is no dmg before clearing off enemy mana. The dmg is slightly more 50% below the actual mana break attck dmg.


FV tW is 1300 range, its much longer distance compare to AM short distance blink and it can slow 40%. FV can ambush/harrass AM more. Why FV want to run away? His TL an BT doesnt require mana, he will just stand and fight AM face to face direct till AM die. Its AM tats blink away most of the time.. Do u know tat FV BT 25% can also avoid AM ult - void? FV also can deny creeps. Both also melee hero but FV have more survival skill with BT which can hlp avoid dmg from creeps compare to AM.

AM mana break mostly hurt more in middle or end game but by tat time, FV already increase its agility more and it will have advantage to stun AM and deal extra more dmg.

Well tat 1v1 attck creep is just at example only, it shows who dmg is higher early game at lvl1 .

AM is good but i still prefer FV.

FV vs AM with the same lvl, hp, items, and both are good players, i'll bet on FV coz his advantage is just too obvious.


Cheers,
v_viiper88


This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 26 2007, 07:53 PM

this is the first time i see people say lvl 1 faceless kill AM in a 1 on 1. i don think faceless can match with AM in 1on1 lv 1,unless he get gaunlet and stout shield.but that also if AM didnt get stout shield and gaunlet.if both same item.i don think faceless can even run. unless faceless is play safe game style and by a pro, or else he wont survive till late game. if i see a faceless inside a game,he is food for my side for sure. even timewalk cant save him all the time.just like blink can save AM all the time.

Wa.. this is the first time u heard about this?

When i beat AM 1v1 at PUBs, normally they will tell me FV is imbalance coz can beat 3-5 heroes!!

Cheers,
v_viper88

why not?
lv 1 timelock and lv 1 mana burn, if AM has no mana to burn AFTER FV timelocks AM, he's toast...

that also is if his 10% timelock really come out just in time.AM att speed is higher than FV if not mistaken. so for me,it still based on that 10%. in term of attack speed ,AM for sure advantage (armor around the same, 4 and 4.1) base damage too, AM 56 (46+50/2 +8) while FV 61(58+64/2). when FV whack 2 times,AM already did 3. (att speed CD time).

YOu can go try AM lvl1 with mana break lvl1 vs FV lvl1, with/wihout lvl1 Timelock.
Who will die 1st?

AM - 454 hp
min 46 dmg +10 mana break dmg
http://dotastrategy.com/hero-11-MaginaTheAntiMage.html

FV - 473 hp
min 58 dmg
http://dotastrategy.com/hero-46-DarkTerror...celessVoid.html

FV win coz got extra dmg for every hits he give to AM. FV can kill range or creeps faster then AM at lvl 1 also.

Mid/end game... AM maybe have slightly higher attk speed but still will lose if get stun by FV and some of AM attcks wont hit due to FV BT.. yeah.. if get Chronos by FV den AM will lose more HP and if surive sure blink and run..

Cheers,
v_viper88


This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 26 2007, 01:58 PM

lol ya i am suprised he doesnt know that

I'm not suprise coz most of the other Dota details also i dont really know in detail.

At least i provide some info/details and admit my mistakes if its wrong better than u just know to laugh and contribute nothing.


Cheers,
v_viper88



This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 26 2007, 02:10 PM

well i am surpised because u seem to know quite alot but u dont know basic hahah

Ya..the AM mana break deal less extra physical dmg compare the full Mana dmg.
http://dotastrategy.com/hero-11-MaginaTheAntiMage.html

Some says its the same dmg like the mana dmg.. got ppl says at lvl 4 mana break it deals extra 64 dmg. Maybe u think like tat also ?

Some ppl also dont know ma.. If u know better then why not say earlier ?
Share info lar.. dun just know how to laugh only.


Cheers,
v_viper88

i donu it's correct or not but , AM's CD time for his next attack is 1.19second while FV is 1.40 second, donnu why u say FV kill range/creeps faster than AM? btw,it's from dota-allstars the time.and how FV get extra damage every hit? the 10%? anyway, if in theory talk,AM will win if less bash from FV(attack speed),FV win if every hit he give is that 10% bash.

but if play by two pro in ReaL game, things might change. strategy does matter.hit and run? direct attack?so i cant say FV or AM will win for sure.

If u check my early posting, i've tested since got ppl says at lvl 1 AM can kill range creeps faster than FV lvl 1..

The results:
AM with lvl 1 mana break needs 6 hit to kill a range creep.
FV with lvl 1 Timelock needs 5 hit only to kill a range creep (timelock not even activated yet)

So if FV and AM at lvl 1 fight, FV will win.

Few 0.00+ secs diff won't have much effect at lvl 1.

In real game if both heroes are good and have good items mid/end game, i'll still bet on FV coz its BT and TL already gives big advantage in 1v1 direct fight.

Eg:
FV at lvl 25 with Butterfly, Radiance, Burize, treads, MOM , etcs is hard to fight direct without disabling him first. High evasion, high stun and AOE dmg/stun....

AM main advantage fast attck speed but without any bashers or disabler item he wont stand any chance against FV. He'll have hard time hitting FV, alwys get timelock and even worst trap in chronos before die.

Its not difficult to see who will win or have more advantage rite ?

Cheers,
v_viper88



This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 26 2007, 07:51 PM

mana break works on the melee creep? their base dmg is different,of cause it FV dmg creep more it not about the *att damage cause kill a creep faster* ,anyway im not suggesting AM is better than FV.(btw,why so hyper? ) both hero can be tapau if opponent team got 2 guinsoo

U mean add extra dmg to AM base attck dmg?
Yes, it add additional damage. If the enemy have mana and hp, AM mana break will damage both enemy mana and hp where it will dmg the mana more compare to the hp. If the enemy have 0 mana, AM will only have the additonal dmg add to his base attck dmg, not the full mana burn dmg. See below:

Anti-Mage Mana Break ()
Each attack dissipates mana based on spell level. Orb Effect.
Level 1 - Burns 16 mana and deals 10 damage.
Level 2 - Burns 32 mana and deals 19 damage.
Level 3 - Burns 48 mana and deals 29 damage.
Level 4 - Burns 64 mana and deals 38 damage.

I reply to the early guy tat saying AM lvl1 with lvl1 mana break can kill range creep faster and can kill FV at lvl 1 coz its wrong ma..
AM base dmg + its mana break tat deal extra 10 dmg still lose to FV base dmg.

Faster attck speed at lvl 1 is not much help for AM also.
FV can get wraiths or IAS item to match AM attck speed later coz FV already lead with bashing skill and evasion skill...

2 guinsoos.. wow...

Guinsoo`s Scythe of Vyse $ 5175
Gives:
+150% Mana Regeneration
+25 Intellegence
+35 Damage
Activate: Polymorph
600 Range 3.25 Second Duration

Tat is about 6.5 secs disable skill tat cost more than 10K for 2 Guinsoos...

Faceless Void Backtrack skill can avoid being Polymorphed sometimes 25% , and if FV get Linkens, it will helps alot also and lastly the mighty BKB.....
Can you stop a FV with BKB activated?

Yeah, if enemy get BKB or activated avatar to vs FV, most likely they still will lose. I remember in one of the games, Naix with 2 bashers, tread, bracers activated Avatar and chiong vs FV.. but he still got trapped in Chronos and get whack to pieces.

Cheers,
v_viper88



This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 26 2007, 11:21 PM

Sigh, yet another painful round of mathcraft in order to prove a point...

1st, at level 1, AM has 56 damage, as compared to FV's 58 damage. Divide that by attack rate, and you end up with AM 47.0 DPS (damage per second) vs FV 41.4 DPS. As per your figures, AM will need 7.14 secs to kill the caster compared to 7.0 on FV. A difference of 0.14 seconds, which might go either way, depending on damage variance. The figures for mana break are after armour/spell resistance modifiers. And, timelock wouldn't make any difference for FV to kill the ranged creep since it does no damage.

Using base attspeed since i'm lazy to dig up the figures for attspeed increases, AM will be doing 8.4, 16.0, 24.3, 31.9 EXTRA DPS for level 1,3,5 and 7 (mana break damage/attack rate). That's better than a demon edge. Plus, AM has slightly higher agi gain over FV, which means DPS will be even more. Think of all the possibilities for harassing/farming/denying.

Another factor in the AM/FV farming/denying arena is attack animation. AM has a freaking FAST attack animation which means it'll be easier to deny and farm. Notice i place a lot of emphasis on denying, since FV will lag in levels against an actively denying/harassing AM. Anybody who has ever soloed a good AM will know that AM is a real pain in the rump. He can probably hit and run fast enough that FV won't be able to retaliate, given normal reflexes and FV's much slower attack animation. Don't forget AM gains more armour over time too which will matter a lot in a harassing arena.

And, Mana break does NOT add extra damage if your target is out of mana.

"Mana break does NOT add extra damage if your target is out of mana."quote=snorlax

I'm still not really clear about the AM mana break damage. The details below show it burns mana and deals dmg.

Anti-Mage Mana Break ()
Each attack dissipates mana based on spell level. Orb Effect.
Level 1 - Burns 16 mana and deals 10 damage.
Level 2 - Burns 32 mana and deals 19 damage.
Level 3 - Burns 48 mana and deals 29 damage.
Level 4 - Burns 64 mana and deals 38 damage


So, using mana break;
If the enemy has mana, AM can burn mana and deal dmg rite ?
If the enemy has no mana, AM only deal dmg? or no deal dmg at all?


Yes, i do agree AM has faster agility attck speed which helps in denying/farming/harrass. FV can get wraiths and other IAS item to match AM speed/amour early game and can deny/farm/harrass +add dmg as well too.

The main advantage for FV is it already have basher and evasion skill, which helps alot to survive and stay longer while farming.

Whereas AM need to farm alot and longer time to get basher /butterfly in order to match FV skills. If AM also go for IAS item, definitely his agility and attck speed is higher than FV but he'll lose out mid/end game due to no disabler skill to fight FV in 1v1 direct..

Which hero will have a hard time to farm for items and catching up? I say its AM.

Yeah, thks for spending time to do the mathcraft.

Cheers,
v_viper88


This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 27 2007, 09:33 AM

brother i lazy read all your stuff la,but im sure your post sure on FV. im not talking about the attack DMG la. mana break works on hero with mana,don take Min Dmg go count la, take Max Add Min divide to get Mean (wow i love my stat ) then add in 8DMG of Mana break. Of coz FV kill a creep with less hit,coz melee creep got no mana,mana break wont work.Its so common sense but it might kill faceless in lv1,coz FV have mana,damage is almost the same like FV too.most important,mana break goes thru Armor.meaning,FV's dmg will be reduce by the 4.1 armor of AM and same goes to AM but AM have extra 8 damage that wont be reduce.so jsut like what i say,the 10% bash determine who stand till the last. (again ,im not AM favour).about FV with bkb,linken,watever la,if opponent is a player with skill,do you think we will let FV farm till that level?simply ask any player here in lyn who play in competition,will they let a FV farm till that many level3 above item in pub game? and basically,no need to "wow,2 guinsoo,10k" ,it's very to farm out ok?

This dispute can only be solved with a 1 on 1 match!! Who want to become magina and who want to become fv? later post replay hahahaah.

If you don't read, you also will not understand what i want to find out or my views ma.

Got ppl says AM can kill faster at lvl 1 compare to FV lvl 1. I say FV at lvl 1 can kill melee, range creep and AM lvl1 mana break faster. Just tat i'm not sure about AM mana break deal the extra dmg to hero without mana coz some says no dmg.

The BKB, linkens, BT is my suggestion reply to early guy who suggest getting guinsoos to fight FV .. If the only best you can says is to stop FV from getting tat item by out farm or deny him....using AM, tat means there is no other way to win in a fair fight? Other hero can get their item and FV have no chance to get his item.. its just doesn't seems rite.

U says FV cant farm well and alwys get harrassed compare to AM and most other LYN ppl also think like tat. .. If you got read my earlier posting, you might understand better, FV is also an agility hero like AM and with IAS items he can also farm and get the items he wants. Both also melee heroes, its really unfair to say FV cant farm to get good items. if vs AM.

If you ask those who play good FV or have played against a good FV using AM, once FV get tread, 2 Wraiths + lvl 3/4 Timelock and Chronos, who cant farm well or get harrass most of the time?

I'll say both heroes have good chance to farm and harrass, but FV timelock+ chronos will have more advantage.

Cheers,
v_viper88

This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 27 2007, 11:12 PM

FV timelock do have extra dmg when its activated

http://dotastrategy.com/strategy-988-TimeSplitter.html

FV Bash ()
Gives a chance that an attack will do bonus damage and stun an opponent for 1 second.
Level 1 - 10% chance per attack, 40 bonus damage.
Level 2 - 15% chance per attack, 50 bonus damage.
Level 3 - 20% chance per attack, 60 bonus damage.
Level 4 - 25% chance per attack, 70 bonus damage.

Just pump in IAS item and TL will kick in more and the 70 bonus dmg is like a good relic to me..

Cheers,
v_viper88

This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 27 2007, 02:20 PM

FV will not have his wraiths and other stuff at the beginning of the game. And AM can also get items too. FV will NOT be able to get any item which adds 39 damage for a very large part of the game, while AM has it for free by lv 7.

FV's basher and evasion simply do not count for much early game since AM is going to be taking out huge chunks of hp with blink/break and harassing. No AM will stand there and give you a chance to bash him.

Farming wise, AM WILL outlevel and outfarm FV because of much higher attspeed and fast attack animation. Let's say both AM and FV attack the same creep at critical hp at the same moment. AM will get the kill because his attack triggers first. Ownage for both farming and denying.

With consistent farming and denying, there's bound to be a 2 to 3 level gap midgame. Item-wise. AM can farm his eaglehorn or demon edge/relic first to harass the heck out of FV, stunting FV's leveling even further. FV will only be able to even up the gap late game.

Added on January 27, 2007, 2:46 pm:
My bad on this one, did not notice it on dota-allstars. And it's more like a claymore with a 25% chance to trigger.

This post has been edited by snorlax: Jan 27 2007, 02:46 PM

I already know you will repeat say AM will outlvl, outfarm and get better item than FV.

Even when the game start with $500, FV can already can get 1 wraith. or 1/2 cirlets and 1/2 slippers or etcs

Don't tell me at lvl 1 - 7 FV cant or hard 2 farm for basic items ... unless tat player is a noobie okla.. i agree. Even for average player, its shouldn't be any problem to farm against AM which is also a melee hero.

Around lvl 7, FV already get 2-3 wraith and treads. This increase attck speed and will also increase the chance to activate timelock. The extra dmg from timelock + the 1 secs stun gives another free direct normal dmg hit or FV can choose to activate Chronos and its hard/no escape/blink for AM which add another 2-3 free hits. This combo deal big chunk of dmg at AM too.

Most AM players get gauntlet, ror and concentrate to farm for basher...At that lvl, AM attck speed same or maybe slightly faster dpd on his item build. Even if AM go for treads and wraiths like FV, he still cant stop TL or Chronos coz no basher or disabler skill. Most of the time AM will blink and run if see FV coming towards him..
If he stay and fight, its a gamble with his hp and life. AM also will think few times to blink in harrass FV coz if the FV timelock activated, you know what will happen...

Whereas for FV, no need worry so much, just farm smart and just hit AM if he come close/blink..

FV also wont just stand and let AM attck/harrass him, sure will return attack and both also get dmg.. so why you said only AM can out lvl, out farm thus getting better item?

Just bcos AM attck animation faster and higher agility? How about the FV add IAS item, stun, extra dmg and the big bubble Chronos? It still cant match AM skill?

Ya, dota-allstars dun have much detail info abt the extra dmg stuff... Go read at dotastrategy.com.

Cheers,
v_viper88

This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 27 2007, 05:04 PM

http://www.mkshare.org/726100

I've tried it on level 1 with no items and level 1 with 5 agility bracers and 1 glove of haste.

Note:-I did not attribute to anything when fv was on 2.

This post has been edited by ubhm: Jan 27 2007, 06:29 PM

sigh, 1.21 version, i pop out "this is different version of warcraft 3",mind posting the result?

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Added on January 27, 2007, 10:32 pm
k la,FV wins don take it so serious. ITS ALL DEPEND ON THE PLAYER

This post has been edited by akRia: Jan 27 2007, 10:32 PM

3 rounds of fight.

AM with lvl 1 mana break
FV with lvl 1 Timelock.

1st round both hero no item
2nd round both hero no item
3rd last round both hero have 5 wraiths + 1 glove,

FV won in all the 3 rounds 1v1 fight.

Even with 5 wraiths and 1 glove AM still lose when 1v1

For those who says/think FV cant match AM early in farm/lvl/harrass, should see the replay.

Cheers,
v_viper88

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Added on January 28, 2007, 12:12 amNice. Thanks for the replay.

Cheers,
v_viper88


This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 28 2007, 12:12 AM

This applies for level 1 only, in later stages/circumstances we don't really know what will happen.

You have already put in 5 wraiths and 1 gloves. Its already show if both hero only increase Attck speed even at other lvl especially early game direct fight, FV still have advantage. Mid/end game FV will have more advantage with BT and chronos.

The bash stun, extra bonus dmg will knock out AM faster.
Level 1 - 10% chance per attack, 40 bonus damage.
Level 2 - 15% chance per attack, 50 bonus damage.
Level 3 - 20% chance per attack, 60 bonus damage.
Level 4 - 25% chance per attack, 70 bonus damage.

That is why i say AM will think few times gamble his hp/life if want to harrass FV.
AM won't know when the timelock will be activated.. If he get caught by Timelock + Chronos, he wont have much chance to survive. Those who say AM can harrass FV easily obviously didn't play with a good FV before.. ..

Cheers,
v_viper88

This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 28 2007, 08:17 AM

hmm..i think this discussion is not getting beneficial liao
first of all, you guys are assuming that FV will vs AM in the same lane
now imho, a smart player, if they keep on die, they will likely to change lane or ask for help
secondly theres so many place to farm..its unlikely for you to completely stop a player from farming well
so the whole discussion should be about how FV vs AM at the end game
what sort of builds can AM get to kill FV? this is the kind of discussion that needs to spark out

of course you need to compare 2 pros fight together man!
precisely a pro FV vs a pro AM
if that 64 mana break damage of your AM could control the FV from farming whole game..i salute you for doing so, coz that is not likely going to happen unless you fight against noob FV who can't return damage when you hit him

its not a matter of who is better using which character, if u are a AM player...you should tell how can you kill a FV , using logic of course , if u are telling us by your experience or vs AI..i don't think it even counts as a debate

btw this message is for AM players, i already agree FV wins completely : hands down
my previous post shows possibility of AM to win , but the chance is slim

It does have benefits. This will show tat faceless void is not as weak in farm, lvling, harras compare to AM early game as some forumer think.

This topic is about comparing AM & FV to find out which heroes is better.

I have already stated my points and gives the item build and suggestion how to counter AM. Some forumer here think they can win FV early game coz farm/lvl/harras? FV can also do the same or better at am .

FV
Early game
5 branches, 1 chick
2-3 wraiths, Treads

Mid/end game
Butterfly
Radiance,
BKB (if AM got high hp with blademails)
Linkens (if AM go for Guinsoo)
BUrize/MOM

Tell me whats AM build to counter this FV?
What is AM chances to win in 1v1 vs FV if both player are good?

Cheers,
v_viper88





This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 28 2007, 10:56 AM

5 branch no regen item hmp if i am the AM i would be waitin harassing you until your hp low and wait for your chicken to kill it

The same old harrass story again.
No item build and also didnt say how to counter the FV build..
Is ur AM good at harrassing only?

Obviously u dunno wats goin on..

Cheers,
v_viper88

eh viper88 go fight flizzardo, he talk cock a lot one, then u post replay here, who win determines the whole debate!!!.

IMO Faceless > Anti mage as late gamers. Hands down to faceless as he can almost wipe out any hero in ur dota vocabulary late game coz of his imba kia timelock and evasion skill. I just dont get it, how can u pick two heroes with the skills totally different then each other. In harassing early on, AM manage to win. I wont tell you how. -_-
Why cant match two bashers like faceless and spiritbreaker? or faceless and troll warlock. zz

yyea...i haf no idea wuts goin on....

that completely summarizes my point
there is nothing to debate here
they are juz comparing apples and bananas in the end

Read the topic title... Anti Mage vs Faceless Void. Which is ur favourite hero and which one you think is better?

Hmm.. still got ppl think AM harrassing win in early game. Go download replay and see.. AM 5 wraiths and gloves still lose to FV same items..

If you say AM play ambush and get few extra hit and blink away, and FV didnt hit back AM den sure la FV lose..

FV can also do the same and if that AM also dumb/noobie den AM will also lose la.

If both players are good, both will have good chance harrass against each other but if FV timelock activated, then FV will have more advantage. Later game with backtrack and Chronos, AM will be at the disadvantage side already unless he get some good items to balance it.

Put in both good items, i say AM also cant match FV already unless any1 can give a good counter build and not only says.. AM will harrass FV, out lvl, farm better and get better item..

Even if FV is few lvl lower but have IAS good items, he still can beat AM..
FV BT, TL and Chronos will gives him the edge in 1v1 . Unless AM have a good item build, he will still have trouble to defeat AM. How about that?

Yeah...you think AM is a good farmer and harraser against FV...so wat?

Can he beat FV in a fair fight and not against noobies who doesnt know how to farm or hit u back?

Even no item or with 5 wraiths+ glove also lose...



Cheers,
v_viper88


This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 28 2007, 09:45 PM

Thus... u gave me the multi million dollar answers about maths craft of dota. What happen if this build this, if that builds that. Nobody is perfect. Anti mage has the animation and movement of somewhat imbalance if you have played for through experience. You could win in facts but as i said timestopper wins hands down because of his imbalance skills which proves to him yet another lethal late gamer. I will not debate further.

I like anti mage as a favourite hero compared to timestopper, but he lost in this undebatable war.

Wa.. like that sure later got alot ppl wanna challenge me ler..

Go Muzu channel and play with some of the SG people there.. noobies and pros are welcome..you might get invited to join their Clan if you play well lo..

Last time i play there i got the 2nd highestranking in one of their clan member 5v5 match using FV.

Cheers,
v_viper88

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Added on January 28, 2007, 11:03 pmThat is why i say fair game for both heroes. Both hero get their items and fight it out. I already says FV item build.. wat is AM item build which can stop FV?

Most ppl who play dota AM, sure they know AM attck speed is fast..nice mana break animation.. just with these animation Attck speed and can conclude AM beat FV ?

Look at the replay will show that even AM with 5 wraiths and gloves still lose to FV with the same item at lower lvl.. What does this show? At lower lvl, AM have slightly lower advantage in farming killing creeps, harrass or kill FV.

As the lvl goes higher, maybe AM can kill creep faster but at that lvl, FV also can kill creeps fast with IAS item + the 25% timelock extra 70 dmg.

At mid/higher lvl, izit trying to say with AM higher attck speed, by the time AM can kill about 10 creeps and FV can only kill half or slightly more than half of 10 creeps? This is very dependant on how each hero harrass, farm wat item they have.. its situational.

Since FV already have free basher and magical+physical evasion skill, he can just concerntrate to get IAS items, like 2 wraiths, treads, quaterstaff upgrade butterfly, radiance, burize etcs..

or

2 wraiths, treads, elvenskin, quaterstaff, mithril, upgrade maelstrom, eaglehorn -> Mjollnir, eaglehorn -> butterfly, relic -> radiance, crystalyst.

If FV player still find it difficult to farm after getting maelstrom, go for claymore, mitril, Perseverance - Battlefury.. then proceed to get eaglehorn -> Mjollnir, eaglehorn -> butterfly, relic -> radiance, crystalyst.

This FV item build can farm very fast and even Naga Siren with manta style activated with ult + ensnare still cant beat this FV build. AM bro Soulkeeper metamorphosis with 2-3 images also will have hard time to beat FV...

FV definitely can farm/harrass AM more with these item builds... .. Go try it out and see.

Later as the game goes longer,
What good is the attack speed for AM if get stunned by FV?
What good is the attck speed for AM if some of his attck miss FV?

The main thing that i want to point out here is FV can counter/match AM attck speed in early game, in mid and end game. Fv is a better hero than AM.

I like AM too but he will have hard time try to beat a good FV hero who doesnt rely much on mana, have bash and evasion.

Cheers,
v_viper88


This post has been edited by viper88: Jan 29 2007, 09:53 AM