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 HD-DVD versus Blu-ray:The Naked Truth, The lowdown on next-gen format war

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necromanser
post Dec 15 2006, 09:39 PM

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Nice Read. Thanks. This would help me in me job. Mrs. GM needs me to choose either BD or HD-DVD for our organisation.

Thanks Bro.
SUSMartinJuniour
post Dec 15 2006, 09:43 PM

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Hey Necromancer, so which did you choose ?
psyhun
post Dec 15 2006, 10:05 PM

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QUOTE(Zaryl @ Dec 15 2006, 09:42 PM)
Hmm..why go for next-gen storage systems when DVD dual layer, dual sided is more than enough? Come to think of it, I never seen a dual layer dial sided DVD being used a lot.. Dual sided dual layer can go up to 19GB if I'm not mistaken. unsure.gif

Sigh, I wish there's only 1 format, like the DVD. No need to choose either HDDVD or BluRay. sad.gif
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Dual Layer DVDs can only store up to 8.5GB compared to a quad layer Blu Ray which is 100GB

and then there's this OTHER to compete with as well.........
redken
post Dec 15 2006, 10:54 PM

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The author got almost everything right except for this:

QUOTE
Now, an important side note is warranted. We are talking about the common form of 1080p in the NTSC world, which is 1080p/60. But another way to output the information is to simply transfer the data on the disc in its native 1080p/24 format without doing any conversion to 1080i/60 or 1080p/60. Contrary to what you might expect, 1080p/24 transmission actually can have some incremental benefit over 1080p/60. However, in order to take advantage of 1080p/24 output on the players, we will also need projectors and TVs that can recognize 1080p/24 signals and convert them to 48 or 72 Hz. The vast majority of HD compatible TVs and projectors that have been installed and are being sold today do not have 1080p/24 capability. However, they are beginning to appear in anticipation that Blu-ray and HD-DVD players will be able to output that particular signal format.

The advantage to 1080p/24 transmission is that it can eliminate artifacts associated with the 2:3 pulldown conversion that is common in the NTSC 60 Hz world. The disadvantage is that it adds cost to both the HD disc players and the video display products. Moreover, the vast majority of consumers are not bothered by, or even conscious of the artifacts that it is intended to eliminate anyway. For the most part, 2:3 pulldown conversion is invisible to the viewer except in certain types of scenes, and even then they would not be noticed at a normal viewing distance on most 40" to 50" televisions.

Nevertheless, for videophiles using larger screen systems, 1080p/24 transmission and processing will eliminate 2:3 pulldown artifacts that they can certainly be aware of and bothered by. So as TVs and projectors come onto the market that are able to accept a 1080p/24 signal, both HD-DVD and Blu-ray players will show up that are able to deliver it. In fact, the next wave of higher priced Blu-ray players to hit the market this fall should have 1080p/24 output as an option. A good percentage of the higher end videophile market will be motivated by 1080p/24 transmission, so HD-DVD will need to follow suit in a timely fashion.


This pulldown problems exist even back in the vhs and dvd days, the difference between recording equipment and commercial sets have since been evident but till to day have not be eliminated. His advice to pay a premium for so called 1080/24 sets are beyond my comprehenssion. People dun see a need in achieving the extra 1% in image quality, so why bother. Pulldown is a very good compromise technique. Heck how many of us run movies with 72Hz refreshers on our progressive scan native comp? People either didnt knew or doesnt care. The latter for me.

This post has been edited by redken: Dec 16 2006, 12:42 AM
Reix
post Dec 15 2006, 11:44 PM

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This might be off topic, but I hope someone here can englighten me.

I know Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS are too different audio format in DVD.

Almost all the original DVD that you can find in Speedy (either local released or imported ) or www.buy.com, all the new released titles only have DD 5.1 .
There are only few that special edition titles that have DTS.

And almost all the pirated DVD in malaysia that has both DD 5.1 and DTS.

My question is, who encodes the DTS into these pirated DVDs?
The original studio or the pirated industry?
if the formal one, why I can't find any original title that has DTS version?
if the latter, how they get the audio track that the original version not even exist? And is the DTS in these DVDs really a true DTS?

I know DD5.1 and DTS are not much different.
But it bugging me that my original DVDs only have DD5.1 and those pirated DVDs out there have both.
silencer
post Dec 16 2006, 12:01 AM

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Anyone experience an adult movie in High Definition...must be jaw dropping..kick ass..experience i guess...to good to be true....sorry..of the topic a bit....
redken
post Dec 16 2006, 12:38 AM

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QUOTE(Reix @ Dec 15 2006, 11:44 PM)
This might be off topic, but I hope someone here can englighten me.

I know Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS are too different audio format in DVD.

Almost all the original DVD that you can find in Speedy (either local released or imported ) or www.buy.com, all the new released titles only have DD 5.1 .
There are only few that special edition titles that have DTS.

And almost all the pirated DVD in malaysia that has both DD 5.1 and DTS.

My question is, who encodes the DTS into these pirated DVDs?
The original studio or the pirated industry?
if the formal one, why I can't find any original title that has DTS version?
if the latter, how they get the audio track that the original version not even exist? And is the DTS in these DVDs really a true DTS?

I know DD5.1 and DTS are not much different.
But it bugging me that my original DVDs only have DD5.1 and those pirated DVDs out there have both.
*
The pirate copies tat u get is Region 1 copies with full goodies, where as the Speedy ones are Region 3, minus all the goodies.

The DTS differs not much from DD5.1. Perhaps the most significant difference between them is the CENTER channel normalization practised by DD but no DTS. So when u have really soft dialogues movies, switching to DTS will help. The dynamic range also differs, but not much as impactful.

This post has been edited by redken: Dec 16 2006, 12:41 AM
redbull_y2k
post Dec 16 2006, 01:27 AM

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QUOTE(silencer @ Dec 16 2006, 12:01 AM)
Anyone experience an adult movie in High Definition...must be jaw dropping..kick ass..experience i guess...to good to be true....sorry..of the topic a bit....
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there's quite a number of JAV in HD for quite some time... had some of those 720p ones. Hush hush.... whistling.gif
Reix
post Dec 16 2006, 02:47 AM

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QUOTE(redken @ Dec 16 2006, 12:38 AM)
The pirate copies tat u get is Region 1 copies with full goodies, where as the Speedy ones are Region 3, minus all the goodies.

The DTS differs not much from DD5.1. Perhaps the most significant difference between them is the CENTER channel normalization practised by DD but no DTS. So when u have really soft dialogues movies, switching to DTS will help. The dynamic range also differs, but not much as impactful.
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I don't think it is region thing wo.

I buy most of my DVDs from buy.com or amazon.com which is region 1. But all the title only come with DD 5.1

Using Pirates Of The Caribbean - Dead Man's Chest for example.

It released 5 Dec in US.
This is Region 1 from amazon.com
Pirates of The Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest - Region 1

This is Region 3 from Playasia.com which released 28 Nov in Hong Kong.
Pirates of The Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest - Region 3

Both only come with DD 5.1

Where does the DTS version come from then?

This post has been edited by Reix: Dec 16 2006, 02:49 AM
Volfeed
post Dec 16 2006, 09:45 AM

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QUOTE(Reix @ Dec 16 2006, 02:47 AM)
Where does the DTS version come from then?
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Re-encoded from DD / DD EX tracks. blush.gif
g5sim
post Dec 21 2006, 06:16 AM

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QUOTE(RAMChYLD @ Dec 15 2006, 03:11 PM)
The winner would be the first company to put out a region-free dual-format player biggrin.gif

(Dun let them fool you. BD and HD-DVD are still region-protected).
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HD DVD is not region protected. The HD DVD titles play on any HD DVD players whether its the players are in India or Indiana.

QUOTE
But for a movie buff, this is definitely worth it IMO. And if you don't have an XBOX 360 yet, get one.


You dont need an XBox 360 to use the HD DVD add on, the add on can be used on regular PCs... but then makesure the PCs are not with celeron processor and built in VGA tongue.gif

QUOTE
Blu-ray has more studio support
this is indeed true.


Studios follow where the money goes. If consumers decide to HD DVD, the tide will change.

QUOTE
so hd-dvd won't have problem with 15GB storage since they using vc-1 and dolby digital. and i don't think sony would use vc-1 unless the existence of BD depends on it, coz they would have to pay to MS.


VC1 is included in Blu-ray profile, studios can choose to use the codec. All HD DVD titles have atlease Dolby Digital Plus or DTS-HD. Its the minimum audio requirment for HD DVD, dolby digital is a standard for DVD.

QUOTE(alkt @ Dec 15 2006, 08:36 PM)
If you have personally experience it then u'll know why String is going crazy collecting BD/HD-DVDs. I have experienced it myself but only with BD right now. Imagine playing a super-farking-clear movie with Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound in ur own room drool.gif
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again the mininum audio requirment for HD DVD is Dolby Digital Plus or DTS-HD. Blu-ray - lossless PCM tracks.

QUOTE(Zaryl @ Dec 15 2006, 06:42 PM)
Hmm..why go for next-gen storage systems when DVD dual layer, dual sided is more than enough? Come to think of it, I never seen a dual layer dial sided DVD being used a lot.. Dual sided dual layer can go up to 19GB if I'm not mistaken. unsure.gif

Sigh, I wish there's only 1 format, like the DVD. No need to choose either HDDVD or BluRay. sad.gif
*
How many of us actually use Dual Layer DVDRs? I dont because Single layer ones are enough.



greyshadow
post Dec 21 2006, 05:31 PM

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Those pasar malam's DVD's DTS tracks are fake one
Jack sparrow just re-encode it from the existing DD5.1 track, some even is from 2.0 track laugh.gif
So it's not the real DTS you're hearing, it's just re-encoded DD5.1 with higher volume.

Some ori DVDs has real DTS, especially those special edition or the so called DTS edition.
Most of the hollywood studio's movie DVD are release in DD5.1 only, only a selected fews are encoded with DTS. Even my LOTR:EE trilogy also are in DD5.1 only. Anyway, DTS DVDs are easily found in playasia or yesasia

I haven't seen the price of BR movies yet, but so far what I seen is the price of HD-DVD movies are the same with normal DVD movies. So it's still quite affordable. Wonder when Georgie will release a HD version of Starwars: Complete Saga. biggrin.gif Woot!!


redken
post Dec 21 2006, 06:53 PM

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QUOTE(greyshadow @ Dec 21 2006, 05:31 PM)
Those pasar malam's DVD's DTS tracks are fake one
Jack sparrow just re-encode it from the existing DD5.1 track, some even is from 2.0 track laugh.gif
So it's not the real DTS you're hearing, it's just re-encoded DD5.1 with higher volume.

Some ori DVDs has real DTS, especially those special edition or the so called DTS edition. 
Most of the hollywood studio's movie DVD are release in DD5.1 only, only a selected fews are encoded with DTS.  Even my LOTR:EE trilogy also are in DD5.1 only.  Anyway, DTS DVDs are easily found in playasia or yesasia

I haven't seen the price of BR movies yet, but so far what I seen is the price of HD-DVD movies are the same with normal DVD movies.  So it's still quite affordable.  Wonder when Georgie will release a HD version of Starwars: Complete Saga. biggrin.gif Woot!!
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U were saying?

user posted image

Just because u have a piece that doesnt have DTS, doesnt mean that it depicts the actual statistic. DTS have just as much demand as with DD. DTS do sound louder for a reason, not because it was purposely made that way by pirates but it's dynamic range is different.
necromanser
post Dec 21 2006, 07:47 PM

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QUOTE(MartinJuniour @ Dec 15 2006, 09:43 PM)
Hey Necromancer, so which did you choose ?
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Will probably choose the Toshiba HD-DVD one. Tunggu budget kuar, then order.
g5sim
post Dec 22 2006, 01:20 AM

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QUOTE(necromanser @ Dec 21 2006, 07:47 PM)
Will probably choose the Toshiba HD-DVD one. Tunggu budget kuar, then order.
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the first gen Toshiba players are selling at <>$350 in the USA. The second generation Toshiba players are with MRSP $499 but, stores are offering free tax, free overnight shipping and throwing in 2 extra HD DVDs (in addition to the 3 free HD DVD offered by HD DVD promotional group) and 4 year extended warranty.

With Toshiba supplying everything HD DVD in the market, they will be able to achieve economic of scale MUCH faster than BD consumer electric manufactures that would have to share the market. So expect HD DVD players to drop price MUCH MORE faster than BD biggrin.gif

hotdog
post Dec 22 2006, 06:09 AM

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This month's T3 did a review on both these formats. smile.gif
SUSMatrix
post Dec 26 2006, 10:58 AM

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QUOTE(MartinJuniour @ Dec 15 2006, 04:22 PM)
Well see how easily DVD Player's got cheap with brandless product's & can even decode DTS. I can only say, the more cheaper it get's the less fussier we are. So I assume Someone's alredy on the job of cloning both HD-DVD & BD-Player ROM"s. LoL
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Err..decode DTS and DD5.1? I think most DVD player's only SUPPORT DTS and DD5.1 by passing the signal via optical/coaxial out to your receiver to decode. heck, i don't think even my SONY DVD player can decode it.

If you can find a DVD player that has 6 to 8 analog out, then *MAYBE* it can decode the DTS and DD5.1 and send it out.

Correct me if i'm wrong.


As for the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, is there even original disc in these format available here?

Anyway, it don't matter to me...can't afford a 1080p Full Definition screen anyway...smile.gif

But i think SONY got chance to win this war...already 0.5 million PS3 in homes, if they can sell about 5 million ps3, then the war might as well be over. But i've got a good feeling SONY will lose the video game war, eventhough they *MIGHT* win the format war.

WII is outselling PS3 3 to 1 in US.....Go WII!!!
greyshadow
post Dec 26 2006, 11:18 AM

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Just drop by any hypermart like Carrefour, Tesco or Giant, you can see all sort of chapalang brand DVD players with 5.1 output (consist of 6 outputs) selling for only RM100++ only.
My cheap Philips DVD player also got it wink.gif
SUSMatrix
post Dec 26 2006, 12:45 PM

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QUOTE(greyshadow @ Dec 26 2006, 11:18 AM)
Just drop by any hypermart like Carrefour, Tesco or Giant, you can see all sort of chapalang brand DVD players with 5.1 output (consist of 6 outputs) selling for only RM100++ only.
My cheap Philips DVD player also got it wink.gif
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Really ar? Gotta check my SONY DVD player...anyway, i use digital connection out so it's no issue to me.

And my HTPC has officially replaced my SONY DVD player as the main player for everything in the living room with the SONY DVD player demoted to the bedroom...

I love watching recorded ASTRO show on my HTPC...can skip all the useless commercials!!! thumbup.gif

This post has been edited by Matrix: Dec 26 2006, 12:46 PM
arj
post Dec 26 2006, 02:25 PM

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QUOTE(Matrix @ Dec 26 2006, 10:58 AM)
Err..decode DTS and DD5.1? I think most DVD player's only SUPPORT DTS and DD5.1 by passing the signal via optical/coaxial out to your receiver to decode. heck, i don't think even my SONY DVD player can decode it.

If you can find a DVD player that has 6 to 8 analog out, then *MAYBE* it can decode the DTS and DD5.1 and send it out.

Correct me if i'm wrong.
As for the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, is there even original disc in these format available here?

Anyway, it don't matter to me...can't afford a 1080p Full Definition screen anyway...smile.gif

But i think SONY got chance to win this war...already 0.5 million PS3 in homes, if they can sell about 5 million ps3, then the war might as well be over. But i've got a good feeling SONY will lose the video game war, eventhough they *MIGHT* win the format war.

WII is outselling PS3 3 to 1 in US.....Go WII!!!
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Yes, there are local distibutors for HD DVDs and BDs. The local shops don't stock them though so you need to order through them. You don't need a 1080p display to enjoy HD DVD or BD, you can clearly see the difference compared to normal DVD even on 720p displays.

Sony will win the war because they will sell XXX number of PS3? What talking you? First and foremost they are a gaming console and at the moment only a small percentage of PS3 owners buy BD movies so the number of PS3 sold shouldn't be use as an indication of how successful BD will be. What really counts is the number of medias that are being sold. Then again, there's quite a number of people on the AV forums buying the PS3 for the BD player laugh.gif

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