Now it's really peak period. If you got no other offer, then wait. If you have offers from other firm, notify them in a polite way so you don''t burn bridge. Big4 keep all the applicant records and there is a cooling period if you failed in your application. You can try to call the interviewer to remind them because they are dealing with a lot of applications.

You maybe surprised that medium firm workload may even exceed Big4 especially with the low SADs of the companies you are covering. Not all the staffs in Big4 work late due to workload ...

I think pass can already. Maybe you can say you never fail b4? I think the firm cannot really differentiate. If you are prize winner maybe can stand out a bit.

Most companies that offers Management Trainee program operates a shared service centre (Ie: Shell, BAT, Sunway, Citigroup,..). This does not train you to be manager / convert you into a manager. However, you will be rotated into few departments within a 2 year programme (Ie: IT, HR, operations, finance, business, …). Banks have something similar (offered by CIMB and Maybank) but they are not operating under shared service.

You should look for MNC that have proper track record of grooming finance professionals. Try look for GE Financial management programme. Very rare MNC will throw a fresh grad into important project or positions in MYS as most are family owned or GLCs. You have a higher chance with Big4 audit division. If you want, you can try Big4 advisory arm or consulting firms that will gives you deeper exposure. Investment bank division such as CF and M&A also offers deep exposure.

Don’t get over ambitious. Big4 is notorious for crushing high ego staff
Don’t just work, interact with colleagues for personal and professional purpose
Take care of health, working overnight and over weekends are very common.
Never burn bridge with anyone, you never know
If you want to leave audit/accounting world, start learning skills. Ie: Want to go IB, take CFA. Want to go consulting, take MBA.

Create FB and Linkedin, big4 staff loves bitc*** and sharing in social media

Well consulting is a big word, generally there is 2 level of consulting. One is the higher tier where you deal with C-suite executives. The other one which forms the majority is the mid & lower tier where you do a lot of grunt work. I think some forumers have clearly explained the pros & cons of both of them.

From the perception point of view, Big4 will not be able to match MBBs in terms of pedigree in management consulting. If you want to check the difference, you can see the entry requirement. MBBs take in people mainly from Ivy leagues while Big4 considers a larger set of applicants. MBB associate gets around >US5000 & above. That is senior manager / directors pay in Big4 now?

From practicality point of view, not much PLC is willing or can afford MBB consultants. It’s like asking you to choose a Michelin star restaurant versus a very popular established restaurant. Big4 consultants are more popular due to the “all in one roof” offering, ie: tax, audit and consulting. It’s harder to get to advisory side of Big4 than audit due to the size of department and business strategy. Audit client is recurring but advisory is project basis. Tax is in the middle.
If you want financial advisory, IB will be more relevant. They are involved in the big corporate exercise like IPO and M&A. Those that they did not want, they will outsource to smaller banks or big4s.

Skills wise, this is a very subjective area. Some said better go big4 bcos you learn everything (be it micro or macro). Some said go IB or consulting bcos you play with the big boys and do macro stuff.

Which Big4 got good consulting dept? That one is even harder to answer. Maybe try apply interview and see which one is harder? Lol

I think maybe the advisory side may sponsor. IB also mostly no. Bcos they know people will cabut once they finish the exam. If you did well in CFA (> 70 every subject), your exam fees will be waived.

I hardly think CF is applicable in audit. Mostly for fund managers or analyst.

IB CF hardly requires CFA knowledge. I don’t think it’s a prerequisite to join as working experience matters more to them. There are 3 major skills they need: legal, project management and finance background. From the attitude perspective, they need someone who is very diligent (why they might like auditor). But if you are talking about Big4 CF, it’s different as it focuses more on due diligence side. Bcos Big4 does not have CF license to operate as principal adviser for corporate exercise. That’s why you don’t see Big4 name in prospectus for IPO or major M&A.

The closest work from audit to CF is drafting account?

It really depends on your arrangement as each Big4 also got different dept. Each dept got multiple teams. You got the death squad, dustbin team, the rojak, the average joes, … Hellish team trains your endurance while good team foster good culture. The culture is shaped based on few things such as the composition of team member, boss style, client demands, ….

But one culture is prevalent, work hard, play hard approach.

Not sure all firms are the same but you will have the (most teams are criss-crossed):
1) Super / Large team – Teams that employed the most staff members. Everyone talks about them, so most will try to join this team to get exposure before they leave the firm. Audit should be very voluminous but clean (large materiality). Culture should be ok as most can take long leave after deadline.
2) Small team – Deals with small or mid-size companies. Rarely have such teams unless they are 1st or 2nd year managers. Very little resources and manager either do most of the work and/or rely heavily on whoever they have. Culture depends on your luck depending on your client (smaller materiality)
3) Foreign team – Deals with MNCs or branch of MNCs (think companies like Facebook). Very big materiality, tight deadline but should be clean audit as it’s mainly a group reporting. Tight deadline due to consol deadline. Culture also depends on your luck.
4) GLC team – Really not comfortable to share, you will know when you go in
5) Chinaman team – Not the company’s nationality but the culture of the corporation. As most are conglomerate or diversified, most people dun like but you will learn a lot. Culture …
6) Dream team – An ironic term, these are the “special” staffs place. Imagine companies that are high risk, backlogs, foreign subs, … Culture …
7) Death squad – Basically the firm will make your life so miserable for you until you resign.

Emm their culture is give and take, too polarised to form a view. Dustbin similar to dream team. Rojak and average joes are the big majority so their culture is typical (barring any labour turnover) If you hail from a small team try to get into a big team around your 3rd year or so (most will do that). If you are from a big team, most will ship you out to try individual portfolios.

Eventually the trend now, most will leave and join Singapore / Australia Big4 after they get their title if they love audit but hate the pay and/or the team here. If you like audit but hate the working hours, most will try to switch to advisory (except the technical ones). If you want to get out from the firm, most will try accounting or internal audit that can match the salary demands but not the glamour and career development. Those that wants to leave audit outright to further career development in new field such as CF, IB, consulting, .. will most likely end up with lower salary (if they get the job) but hope to get higher in subsequent years.

Depends on dept of the firm. Some allocate based on an open pool where you will be drafted based on project timing and your availability. Some will allocate based on managers where you will placed at a permanent team and your project will follow the team portfolio. As turnover is frequent, team and portfolio changes hand almost on every term. One can always request to join a specific team. It’s always easier to join a difficult team (work late, big project, …) because most want to opt out. One big client can easily take out your entire your year. Pre-final 2-3 month and final 5-6 month and remaining is study break or annual leave.

Previous trend is:
Who wants to go to SG or AUS?

Current trend is:
Who is still in MYS?

I think UK is also very popular now due to the mandatory audit rotation. If you done first year audit for a big client, you should know how many resources we need.

Audit always need people so no issue there. But the growth is very low so not easy to be competitive with other division such as tax and advisory. Big4 try to stimulate growth in the advisory section through organic or acquisition (the only division with double digit growth). You will see a lot of acquisition of consulting firms by Big4s recently and in future. The current trend is IT and forensic/fraud. It’s almost impossible to audit IT companies without these experts. And most companies want to go upgrade their IT finance so Big4 want to tap these fields. If you know stuffs like SAP, it’s very useful.

For non-audit field such as finance, you might see rise of start-ups. They require accountants to be savvy in the non-financial aspect as well.

RM5k to RM7.5k?
I think there are slight difference if you join those that have dedicated shared service centers (SSC).
Banks normally pay higher than the general PLCs or MNCs
Specialised PLCs such as construction, property development, Oil & gas, telcos also normally paid slightly higher due to specialized knowledge

I think Big4 managers might find office politics even worse when they decided to leave

Read these if you already reach the 3rd year or just promoted as manager in Big4

I think those that stay because some really like audit / because they are good at it (although these are rare). Most I know complained endlessly during lunch and at midnight about how much better outside, Uber employees earn more per hour, …
So, intention to leave is clear but its not a clear guarantee the world is better outside. Again to use auditors favorite word, these are just my personal opinion ...

Option 1: Join your client in the reporting line as accountant/FM/SFM/CFO….

Rationale: Client wants you because they know you can deal back with your old firm.

Pros: Money must be good initially (to prise you away) but lesser incremental later on, you are familiar with the work (in theory), work-life balance (except during reporting deadline) and plenty of opportunities (a company die due must have a reporting staff)

Cons: Big4 look down on people that join client in reporting (especially anything below FM or CFO), most company will not hire Big4 as CFO straight away but prefer they climb up from Acc/FM, lack of prospect (unless got turnover), lack of skills (unless they are actual finance involved), lack of increments (your KPI is based on cost-centre, in audit you are revenue centre), lack of friends (depends on company structure as most hate finance dept)…

My own view: Being a good auditor does not make you a good accountant like a good coach makes them a great player.

Option 2: Join internal audit
Rationale: For those that loves audit but hated the hours

Pros: Very similar to accountant but the upside is your basic may be higher

Cons: Similar to accountant but a lot travel is necessary and your skills may be more specialised as not all people wants internal audit in their organisation (it’s because they are mandated to)

Option 3: Join a finance role (either advisory, investment banking)
Rationale: This is what every auditor will say (to look ambitious) before they actually left the firm. These are the roles most won’t feel embarrassed of stating. Accounting is not finance period.

Reality check: Most will apply to investment banks or asset management first. Most will get rejected as I am aware through industry knowledge, most banks (at least the top tier ones) in MYS does not see how audit knowledge can translate into areas such as CF, M&A, … (unless you have a CFA). If accepted, most will ask you to start at lower levels (so those with ego will get slighted). Assuming you do want to start at lower level you have to start suffering all over again. And salary is low (yes it is) but bonus is high depending on performance.

Based on these thoughts, most will lower down their goal and try advisory by asking the partner to recommend (if you are visible to them). This might take time as the audit partner wants you to finish all the work first and for the advisory partner to assess you. You might retain your position but don’t be surprised if you take longer time to get promoted. Again based on the type of advisory offerings, less than half requires even part of audit knowledge. So only the multi-talented one gets accepted.

Pros: A higher paying job in the end (if you want to see the difference, just see how much Big4 receives from corporate exercise compared to bankers), skills that is desirable at higher level (audit is non-revenue generating but advisory is), glamour???

Cons: Hours are worse, politics are worse, culture are worse, … and most important it requires a huge leap of skills acquisition from audit. And mistakes are not tolerated at all (especially when talking about corporate proposals). Bad works leads to missing business opportunities

Option 4: Unrelated (Corporate , Management Consulting, Hedge fund, asset management)
I assume if we are seeking progression, most will talked about joining these two.

Rationale: Glamour I guess, Imagine telling people you join MBB. Salary is very good (normally in USD) and a lot more.

Problem: Unless you came from an outstanding school, u hardly stand a chance applying with audit background. Then if you come from outstanding school (with no scholarship affiliation) why you decide to join big4 audit instead if you can apply to others?

Conclusion

So …. After all these, you think people don’t want to stay meh? Lol. Post manager in Big4 not bad. Steady progression (due to huge turnover), very good increment (RM1k per year almost guaranteed unless again you screw up), tons of associates can’t wait to bootlick you, no need to learn much after manager but just managing people and portfolio (apart from updating accounting or auditing standards), no risks of entrenchment (unless again you screwed it).

I think the biggest perk is that any manager can say “The firm needs me, the partner begs me to stay”. In commercial, its normally the other way around as many can take up your spot. And in commercial, staffs are normally given adequate time to prepare a quality work. In audit (especially in developing countries), staffs are given inadequate time to just submit the work. Auditors that don’t realise these going to commercial will have nightmares in their transition.

This post has been edited by Topace111: Aug 15 2016, 04:31 PM

If you want to get to Big4 SG,

1) Contacts, the higher rank the better. If you unable to get from Big4 SG, get from Big4 MYS. Try get partner to recommend it will be much easier.
2) Performance appraisal for Big4’s are similar, if you get good ranking, they will more likely to consider even from different firm
3) Relevance of experience: Audit is easiest but tax and advisory very difficult unless you have direct experience in advisory or good contacts.
4) Position: Most get position cut or promotion withheld so negotiate properly. Jumping at senior level is easier but very tiring for you. You have to adapt to sg system which is not really similar

On the other regional office, I think JB is very popular for the staff but HQ always have the larger exposure

Lastly on the “guaranteed”, depends on you lo. Most can get if they really put effort into getting there by doing the things I highlight above. Think properly though, getting there is easy. Staying there for long is different matter.

And ….. most employers will likely ignore your pre-working credentials (qualifications, sports, …).

If you are a high performer and people perceive you have integrity, the partner will have no problem helping you. If your manager endorsed you and you leave a good impression (give ample notice, finish work on time, deliver quality, …). The partner prefer those that are upfront rather than those tender last minute during peak period. The partner wish to retain staff but they know industry norm of high turnover. If you are leaving to a better place, most partners will normally help unless you are invisible to them. If you are doing a high profile client, I see no reason the partner will not remember you in the first place?

I think ranking is very subjective but as long as you did not get below average that should be ok. As long as they know you get promoted every year that should be fine.

The best is get a letter of recommendation from a partner and attach with CV when apply.

I have not heard of people moving from HQ to RO to go SG, you can try though.

I don’t think Big4 SG gives a damn, they just gonna offer a standard position and salary. The key is not on them but on the prospective staff. Some people will think these are too low, I should get higher position, ….

Actually, option 4 is like a fully unrelated job to accounting. As I assume most people that left Big4 are seeking career advancement, a move from the operations to strategic seems reasonable. MNCs can and will definitely need accountants. Some hire you directly to their HQ or through shared service centres. To me, those are still under financial reporting and will fall under Option 1.
Option 4 is nothing to do with financial or statutory reporting. It’s more to do with strategic direction of the company. These jobs require much more than just accounting knowledge and you won’t see many people working inside there as it’s a top level job. Example of departments are such as strategy, M&A, corporate development, CEO office, et al.
I am referring to global management consulting firms and yes it includes MBB.
For banks, I am referring to the revenue generation department of the banks such as IB, CF or M&A. There are others such as corporate banks and treasury as well. Risk, internal audit, reporting and compliance will fall under the cost centre.
Now after such examples, I think Option 4 is more like moving to the revenue centre of the organisation. I think only audit firms will be the circumstance where accounting/audit will be the revenue centre. When you shift to industry, most of the accounting/audit background will be part of cost centre until you move to a strategic role or C-level executive.