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Choosing The Right PSU, Discussions about power supply units.
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sniper69
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 Mar 23 2007, 01:22 AM
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QUOTE(SonicSpyro @ Mar 22 2007, 11:19 PM) C2D E6300 Kingston PC 667 DDR2 1GB*2 WinFast PX 8800GTS 320MB W.D. 16MB 250GB Gigabyte 965P DS3 Cooler Master Centurion 530 LG DVDRW 18x SilverStone Strider 560W or Enermax FMA Iron Power 535W? Made a thread a while ago and it was suggested for me to get the Enermax PSU but now after reading a few threads...I wonder if it's enough. almost same Q as earlier post, anyway...both PSU are good, Enermax @22A each +12V (dual rail), while Silverstone @18A each +12V (dual rail), Enermax 535W slightly lower than Silverstone 560W, so it's neglectible  , the only big difference, the color, FMA II comes with normal more like capalang brand PSU while Silverstone with nice black finishing  , if i were you, i'd choose the heaviest PSU...  |
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afosz
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Mar 23 2007, 06:45 AM
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The heaviest? Does it mean Silverstone? Yup Silverstone's color is black, looks a bit elegant and cool while FMAII kinda looks like chapalang although the specs are great. Same price, higher watt  and its amps reliable |
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sniper69
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Mar 23 2007, 07:28 AM
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QUOTE(afosz @ Mar 23 2007, 06:45 AM) The heaviest? Does it mean Silverstone? Yup Silverstone's color is black, looks a bit elegant and cool while FMAII kinda looks like chapalang although the specs are great. Same price, higher watt and its amps reliable i don't know, because, tried find Enermax's weight, found nothing on the web , as for my preference, when confuse between two PSU, i just take the heaviest one, |
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lamely_named
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Mar 23 2007, 08:56 AM
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It's heavy because they put in lead weight at the bottom, to cheat you. » Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
wahahaha
just kidding.
Enermax is heavy becoz of it's quality components and heatsink.
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Are_keem
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Mar 23 2007, 12:33 PM
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heaviest psu i've ever seen is FSP Bluestorm series..
weighs around 3kg+
-adios-
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sniper69
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Mar 23 2007, 12:35 PM
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QUOTE(Are_keem @ Mar 23 2007, 12:33 PM) heaviest psu i've ever seen is FSP Bluestorm series.. weighs around 3kg+ -adios- yeah,  agreed, but even though it's heavy, i don't really like modular design and it's multi-rail PSU  , for that, i chose a single rail; non-modular PSU |
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lamely_named
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Mar 23 2007, 12:38 PM
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single rail is bad, very bad, bad bad bad bad.
if you SLI, Xfire or lots of components, the single rail will be stressed so much that it explodes!!!!
and burn down your house, kill your family.
multirail is a must for high end system!!! protect your house, protect your family.
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sniper69
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Mar 23 2007, 12:50 PM
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QUOTE(lamely_named @ Mar 23 2007, 12:38 PM) single rail is bad, very bad, bad bad bad bad. if you SLI, Xfire or lots of components, the single rail will be stressed so much that it explodes!!!! and burn down your house, kill your family. multirail is a must for high end system!!! protect your house, protect your family.  , you're completely wrong... QUOTE 8. ARE MULTIPLE 12-VOLT RAILS BETTER THAN A SINGLE 12-VOLT RAIL?
With all the hype about multiple 12-volt rails (ads claim that two rails is better than one, five is better than four, etc.), you'd think it was a better design. Unfortunately, it's not!
Here are the facts: A large, single 12-volt rail (without a 240VA limit) can transfer 100% of the 12-volt output from the PSU to the computer, while a multi-rail 12-volt design has distribution losses of up to 30% of the power supply's rating. Those losses occur because power literally gets "trapped" on under-utilized rails. For example, if the 12-volt rail that powers the CPU is rated for 17 amps and the CPU only uses 7A, the remaining 10A is unusable, since it is isolated from the rest of the system.
Since the maximum current from any one 12-volt rail of a multiple-rail PSU is limited to 20 amps (240VA / 12 volts = 20 amps), PCs with high-performance components that draw over 20 amps from the same rail are subject to over-current shutdowns. With power requirements for multiple processors and graphics cards continuing to grow, the multiple-rail design, with its 240VA limit per rail, is basically obsolete.
PC Power and Cooling is once again leading the industry. All of our power supplies now feature a large, single 12-volt rail. The design is favored by major processor and graphics companies, complies with EPS12V specs (the 240VA limit is not a requirement) and is approved by all major safety agencies such as UL and TUV. taken from PSU Myths @PCP&Ctake a look again, most of "exotic" PCP&P uses single rail, Silverstone Olympia/Decathlon single rail, even those multi-rail PSU is actually drewn from single rail, only you don't know that... |
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lamely_named
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Mar 23 2007, 01:15 PM
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I was just playing around. Dont get angry yah. I read this website up before I bought my PSU. http://www.playtool.com/pages/psumultirail/multirails.htmlPersonally I think most "alleged" multirail PSU are single rail PSU without Current limiter. But I could be wrong. A few well known reviewers have tested these so called "multirail" PSU by stressing the so called "independent" rail well BEYOND their limits (20+amps and above), but nothing happens, the PC still runs. So it could very well be that these mutliple rails are actually one big 12v rail like everyone else. They are just lying to the consumers. REAL multi rails PSU with "current limiter" dont exist I think. Becoz it would be extremely stupid for manufacturer to do so, unless they like ppl claiming warranty everyday. Multiple INDEPENDANT rail server PSU DOES exist however...... but very rare and you cant buy them off the street. so dont worry so much about PSU with "multiple" 12v rails, becoz they are actually single 12v rails in reality ... most if not all of them have no OCP limiter either, so it wont burn your house down if you connect too many high Amperage stuff to it. Buy them, it wont kill you or your family. and sniper69, here's a present for you...nyeknyek. http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1154721read through page 1 and 2. Your favorite johnny guru cleared things up for everyone, a few of his "expert" friends pitched in too. This post has been edited by lamely_named: Mar 23 2007, 01:44 PM |
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Are_keem
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Mar 23 2007, 02:50 PM
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QUOTE(sniper69 @ Mar 23 2007, 12:35 PM) yeah, agreed, but even though it's heavy, i don't really like modular design and it's multi-rail PSU , for that, i chose a single rail; non-modular PSU correction, its non-modular and multi-rail psu.. but the +12v rail is very weak, 15A and 14A the real power is 460W but FSP labelled it as 500W.. howcome? -adios- |
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Edifier
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Mar 23 2007, 03:10 PM
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QUOTE(sniper69 @ Mar 23 2007, 12:50 PM) , you're completely wrong... taken from PSU Myths @PCP&Ctake a look again, most of "exotic" PCP&P uses single rail, Silverstone Olympia/Decathlon single rail, even those multi-rail PSU is actually drewn from single rail, only you don't know that... I ask this question when the Silverstone Sifu came to Malaysia early of this month. According to them Single rail is more stable and more juice compare to multi rail and in future all their DA & OP will using single rail tech. |
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lamely_named
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Mar 23 2007, 03:18 PM
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QUOTE(Edifier @ Mar 23 2007, 03:10 PM) I ask this question when the Silverstone Sifu came to Malaysia early of this month. According to them Single rail is more stable and more juice compare to multi rail and in future all their DA & OP will using single rail tech. My friend, brothers and sisters ... READ THIS THREAD.... get educated. Trust me. :smack: |
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Edifier
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Mar 23 2007, 03:27 PM
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QUOTE(lamely_named @ Mar 23 2007, 03:18 PM) http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1154721My friend, brothers and sisters ... READ THIS THREAD.... get educated. Trust me. :smack: They told me the Intel & display card story also (Intel need multi rail), but fr their research actually the single rail is better than multi rail. U can see most of the top tier PSU manufacturer is focus on single rail rather than multi rail. They told some story about but i just can't remember now, i will check with them again when i in Taiwan next week |
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sniper69
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Mar 23 2007, 03:32 PM
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QUOTE(Are_keem @ Mar 23 2007, 02:50 PM) correction, its non-modular and multi-rail psu.. but the +12v rail is very weak, 15A and 14A the real power is 460W but FSP labelled it as 500W.. howcome? -adios-  pardon me...yeah, FSP does comes with non-modular design, but still on multi-rail ok, back to topic about rail thingy... @lamely_named, i'm not saying that multi-rail PSU isn't good, and yes, from what i've read the link your provide, the advantage having multi-rail PSU is unnoticeable, instead, having a single rail PSU is good why? because, when comes into overclocking (which is like kinda of trend nowadays...), single rail is more stable than multi-rail. i'm not just saying that, i'm talking bout my XP with single rail vs multi-rail PSU as i posted earlier. |
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afosz
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Mar 23 2007, 03:52 PM
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How to determine which is single-rail, which is multi-rail? On PSU specs, one column of +12V is single-rail while the other that has +12V1, +12V2 are multi-rail? And what about modular and non-modular?
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sniper69
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Mar 23 2007, 04:01 PM
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QUOTE(afosz @ Mar 23 2007, 03:52 PM) How to determine which is single-rail, which is multi-rail? On PSU specs, one column of +12V is single-rail while the other that has +12V1, +12V2 are multi-rail? And what about modular and non-modular? you can check on PSU's label , and yes, if you see +12V, it's single, while if you get to see +12V1; +12V2; +12V3...and so on, it's multiple rail modular and non-modular? easy, if your PSU's cable can simply detach from your PSU, it's modular, if not, it's non-modular - this is good for cable management, as some people might not want unused cable hanging around |
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lamely_named
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Mar 23 2007, 04:07 PM
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sniper69, it's misleading to read their "labels", most multirail PSU are "NOT" multirail .... you and me and everyone else cant be sure of it. Until they release the full spec of their PSU (which they will never do), we shouldnt be "teaching" newbies stuff that we cant be 100% sure either. More from Hardforum's expert:  QUOTE It's not one-sided, it's open to interpretation.
You can't blindly believe ANYBODY with something to sell you. That's a fact. PC Power & Cooling makes great PSUs, but they're still trying to sell you a product. A product that is stable, reliable, powerful, overpriced, noisy, and not exactly feature-rich.
That's fine. That's their market. You want facts? Where are yours? You can't put out a "FAQ" entry from PC Power & Cooling as fact, you have to find something objective.
Here's some responses to the PC Power & Cooling thing you posted.QUOTE
PCP&P Quote:
Here are the facts: A large, single 12-volt rail (without a 240VA limit) can transfer 100% of the 12-volt output from the PSU to the computer
So can a PSU with multiple rails.QUOTE PCP&P Quote:
while a multi-rail 12-volt design has distribution losses of up to 30% of the power supply's rating. Those losses occur because power literally gets "trapped" on under-utilized rails. For example, if the 12-volt rail that powers the CPU is rated for 17 amps and the CPU only uses 7A, the remaining 10A is unusable, since it is isolated from the rest of the system. This is only true if that rail ONLY provides power to that specific area and if the other rails are limited to providing their "rated" spec. However, I don't know of a single power supply where the 4/8-pin PSU connector is its own separate rail. Not a single one. So in this mythical, bizarro-world PSU that PC Power & Cooling is talking about, they could be right.QUOTE PCP&P Quote:
Since the maximum current from any one 12-volt rail of a multiple-rail PSU is limited to 20 amps (240VA / 12 volts = 20 amps), PCs with high-performance components that draw over 20 amps from the same rail are subject to over-current shutdowns. With power requirements for multiple processors and graphics cards continuing to grow, the multiple-rail design, with its 240VA limit per rail, is basically obsolete.
The ATX 2.2 power suppy spec available on formfactors.org says you can only have 20A on any single rail in a PSU. It does not differentiate between single and multi rail PSUs so I don't understand their comment here. They're assuming that everyone is building to meet the 2.2 spec, but if this is true, and you're building a single rail PSU, you'd only be able to have a total of 20A on the +12V rail. So they're complaining that multi rail PSUs have a low over-current shutdown point, but the single rail PSU would have only one rail, which must shut down at 20A anyway. So what the hell?
And this being said, if what Redbeard says is true then everyone seems to be building to a newer 2.4 spec which isn't publicly available yet. (which would make sense since the 2.2 spec only goes up to 450W)QUOTE PCP&P Quote:
PC Power and Cooling is once again leading the industry. All of our power supplies now feature a large, single 12-volt rail. The design is favored by major processor and graphics companies, complies with EPS12V specs (the 240VA limit is not a requirement) and is approved by all major safety agencies such as UL and TUV.
Intel and nVidia were largely behind the multiple-rail PSU thing so I don't know how PC Power & Cooling claims that a large, single 12-volt rail is supported by major processor and graphics companies. As for them stating that the EPS12V spec not having the 240VA limit not being a requirement, Here's a PDF that has the latest EPS12V spec, 2.92, and according to page 35, the 240VA limit IS a requirement, in fact, it goes so far to state that no one +12V rail can carry more than 20A, and if the PSU needs to supply more than 20A on a +12V rail, it must be split into multiple (but no more than 4) +12V rails with 20A or less on each.
I don't mean to be a hardass or anything but you can't just say PC Power & Cooling makes awesome PSUs so they must be right.
What they're trying to do is to get you to buy more PC Power & Cooling power supplies. Which is a noble goal, and the goal every company has. But I'd like it more if they actually pointed out some factual data instead of just spouting off crap that we can easily disprove by looking up the specs ourselves. But if I have the money, I would still get PCP&P power supply, but if their sales rep start spouting marketing insanity at me, I'll slap him. This post has been edited by lamely_named: Mar 23 2007, 04:21 PM |
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jy14
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Mar 23 2007, 04:28 PM
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Let's ask how's uncle ianho's experience using the enermax and the silverstone. By the way, heard he fried his enermax due to SLI 8800GTX. Let the man explain better i guess.
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sniper69
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Mar 23 2007, 04:32 PM
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i already knew that multi-rail PSU isn't really a multi rail PSU, in fact it comes from large single rail. this is from Silent Preview http://www.silentpcreview.com/article28-page3.html |
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Kataro
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 Mar 23 2007, 05:42 PM
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QUOTE(sniper69 @ Mar 23 2007, 04:32 PM) i already knew that multi-rail PSU isn't really a multi rail PSU, in fact it comes from large single rail. this is from Silent Preview http://www.silentpcreview.com/article28-page3.htmlThis make more sense to me...  |
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