Originally Posted by: 0311

Here are some of the primary reasons most trainees don't grow:

Good post I found a while back from Iron Addict.

1. You overtrain and under eat. These are listed as the main primary reason because they go hand in hand and BOTH must be balanced or you can forget growth. The most perfect training regimen will fail miserably if diet is not there to support it. And conversely, the most perfect diet will be wasted if the trainee is doing more workload than they can recover from-most do WAY too much!

2. The training workload is not varied. Doing the exact same lift the same way stops being productive for most trainees within 3-6 weeks. Once the body has adapted to the loading it must be changed if you are to continue to force the body to adapt.

3. Too much focus on isolation exercises, not enough compound work. You can do all the "small" lifts until you are blue in the face, but until you are moving big poundage's in the big lifts you will remain small. Which brings up point #4.

4. You MUST squat and deadlift if you are going to reach your bodies growth potential. Think it through. Doing squats or deads activates 70-85% of the bodies overall musculature in one move. Doing a set of curls maybe 3-5%. Which sends a big signal that the body better get better at synthesizing protein and better at handling the need to grow as a unit? You will NEVER reach your potential without doing the squats and deads.

5. You constantly fluctuate between lifts that have bad carry-over. Here is an example:

I have seen many times, and one I have done myself. The trainee burns out on benching and decides to do Hammer Strength Benches for a change. He makes the switch and is jazzed. His Hammer press is going up every week and he is stoked. After a time he has added 50 lbs to his Hammer bench and decides to go back and hit the bench, only to find it's up a whole 10 lbs!!!!!

That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with Hammer Benches. It just means that the lifts are dissimilar enough that an increase in one may not necessarily help increase the lift on another. Use of stabilizers and inter and intra-muscular coordination are two primary reasons, along with neural recruitment pattern gains that don't apply well to the other lift.

6. You don't know when to de-load/cruise , or take time off. NO ONES body takes a constant pounding of hard training without periods of active or full rest recovery. Until you learn how and when to don this your training will never be optimal

7. Your micro-nutrient support SUCKS! I can't count the number of guys I have seen trying to build great physiques taking a "one a day" vitamin and thinking they have it covered. If you want great things out of your body, you need to put great fuel in it.

8. You train with the intensity of a arthritic old lady. Nuff said.

9. You have no clearly defined goals. Most people just "lift to get bigger", and while this is a fine goal, not having and strength related goals will kill your progress in the long run. Your primary goal should be getting stronger on the big lifts on a CONSTANT basis. Setting short and long-term strength goals and achieving them is what equals a big strong trainee in the long run.

10. You are inconsistent. Getting excited about your training and killing yourself in the gym only to burn out and few weeks later and miss a bunch of sessions ends up being 1 step forward, 3/4 steps backward for many trainees. Getting and staying consistent and racking up sustainable gains over the long-term is what it's about.

Iron Addict

This post has been edited by darklight79: Nov 15 2006, 03:44 PM

have to print this out and stick it in my bedroom door....

in summary no pain no gain...

great post dude

Damn, these 3 are probably the ones I'm guilty of right now.

1. I think I'm not consuming enough, although I dont really count the calories. I eat 5 meals a day, a very common diet is as follows:

mea1 1 - big ass breakfast : 1.5scoop of whey + 1pack marigold milk (~45g protein) + 2 whole eggs + half can baked beans (on occasion I sub the eggs and beans with peanut butter sandwich)

mea1 2 - lunch: normal but I always try to include generous portions of chicken and veggies (I stay away from empty foods like wanton noodle, etc).

meal 3 - tea time : 1 pack marigold milk (10g protein) + peanut butter sandwhich/2 hardboiled eggs.

meal 4 - dinner : normal, with lots of meat and veggies

meal 5 - pre-bed : 1.5scoop of why + 1 pack of marigold milk + 2 flax seed oil. (on occasion they'll be some cottage cheese thrown in)

- I really gotta add to this, i'm thinking of oatmeals during tea time. Any feedback on this will be appreciated...

6. Heh I've never really taken anytime off in the past year unless I'm sick. 3 days a week with rest days in between. What's the frequency on how long before we take time off and how long?

7. uhh... about the only supplements I take are flax seed oils and the occasional vit. c. Anymore details on this?

darun, your diet seems pretty good. I put up a sample of mine, and when to utilize extra vitamins.

http://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...dpost&p=9163199

Post #28

oh thanks. What about the resting part? I've never really took anytime off, heh I'm afraid of my belly growing the moment I stop for even a week since I'd still be following the same diet. Do you?

The main thing is to know when to take complete time off or to deload. I'm still trying to figure than out myself, but you can check out this article by a friend of mine who's training me online :-

Originally by Kethnaab of BB.com

Between 5x5, Westside, Smolov, and now DC, the concept of cruising/deloading is becoming quite "popular" among some of the more advanced trainees, and as a result, tons of questions are popping into my inbox...again.

Hopefully this will explain the need for the periodic deload/cruise for many advanced trainees, and it can even be a good intro for someone who is at the intermediate stage and can no longer simply pile weight on, workout after workout.

It all hinges around what is known as "dual factor" training theory.

We have to define a few terms first as they relate specifically to this subject.

Fitness - the resultant physical ability of the body to adapt and respond positively to external stress

Fatigue - The decreased capacity or complete inability of an individual or a bodypart to function normally because of excessive stimulation or prolonged exertion - note fatigue can be very temporary as a result of acute stimulii (i.e. biceps get fatigued from a set of curls) or fatigue can be sytemic and cumulative (i.e. the body and its systems are fatigued from hard training over a period of weeks/months)

Performance - the degree of excellence resulting from physical activity, i.e. your ability to bench/squat/dead/chin/row, etc (remember, we're talking SPECIFIC to weight training here) or, for bodybuilders, the body's ability to demonstrate muscularity

Overtraining - The act of training too often/too heavy/too long, which causes the body's recuperative systems to become overwhelmed so that you can no longer recover from training. Performance is DRASTICALLY reduced, as a result, as the body cannot combat the excessive and chronic fatigue.

Overreaching - the planned process of inducing mild systemic overtraining followed by a planned period of systemic fatigue reduction, with the purpose of dramatically increasing performance

Now then, onward and forward...

Dual factor theory, simply put, involves planning your workouts with the knowledge that fatigue and fitness both affect performance. As you train, you build up your fitness level. Imagine if you were Wolverine...you could train several times a day, everyday, and get stronger and faster constantly. Your fitness level increases, and for some time, your performance level increases as well. You are more energetic, you don't get sore as often, you become stronger/leaner/faster/more muscular, etc. Life is good!

However, we AREN'T like Wolverine, and fatigue reduces our ability to train at peak performance. As a result, we train for a period of perhaps 1-2 hours, then we take a day (or more) to rest before training again. The purpose of the break is to reduce fatigue to a level which allows us to train again at (or near) peak performance (be it the ability to bench 5 more lbs or the resultant ability to demonstrate muscularity)

Over the course of weeks (and possibly, for beginners/intermediates/genetic misfits [Hola, I'm talking to you here!] months) your training results in an increase in fitness, but it also results in the systemic accumulation of fatigue. Anyone with experience who has trained for a period of time and then begins sufferieng from the symptoms of "overtraining" can attest to this. After 10 weeks of hard, intense, consistent training, most people begin to suffer the classic symptoms of overtraining, i.e. loss of appetite, weakness, achy joints, extreme fatigue, problem sleeping, etc.

You are overtraining. Sounds pretty bad, doesn't it? Except, overtraining is a BEAUTIFUL thing...why?

An easy correlation can be made to a guy who runs

if dude runs 5 days per week, 10 miles per day for several weeks, he is going to become extremely fit, but he will get tired due to what we call overtraining. For awhile, he was able to train this way and continue to get faster (increase in fitness accompanied by an increase in performance). However, after several weeks of this, he simply cannot recover from his running, and he gets slower (fitness has increased, but has been overwhelmed by fatigue, resulting in REDUCED performance).

Now, imagine if, after 4-6 weeks of doing 50 miles per week running, he cut back to 3 runs per week at 5 miles per day. Essentially, he just went from 50 miles weekly to 15 miles weekly.

He's still running, and one could argue that, because he's running only 5 miles every other day during the week, he's probably running a lot faster than he was if he was still doing 10 miles. He lowered his overall volume and workload (miles ran) and frequency (days running per week) but upped the intensity (his running speed during the 5 mile is faster than his running speed during the 10 mile)

Because he spent weeks accumulating tons of fitness from his hard workouts, these 15-mile weeks where he runs 3x per week are like a walk (or cruise!) in the park for him. His fitness level was accustomed to handling 50 miles per week, but now he's only running 15 miles per week.

As a result, the fatigue that also accumulated during those 6 or so weeks of 50-mile running is now able to dissipate, even though he's still running each week. He cut back on volume and frequency, and now he sees increases in his athletic performance as fatigue dissipates and his fitness is allowed to "show through"

You can be in great shape, but if you're flippin' tired, you can't perform that well. Unfortunately, it takes ALOT OF HARD WORK to get in great shape, and that causes fatigue to accumulate.

Check the stupid picture/graph I drew. It represents "general fitness level" with a blue line and "general fatigue level" with a red line, with "performance" being the green arrow drawn between the difference. As you exercise, your general fitness level increases, as does your fatigue accumulation. Unless you are a Mentzer-drone, you train more often than 2 or 3 times per month. As a result, fatigue WILL accumulate (and this is a GOOD thing!)

The harder you work, the more your fitness goes up, but the more fatigue that accumulates (Loading/accumulation phase). How you perform is not based SOLELY on your fitness level, but it is based on a (very non-mathematical, but rather theoretical) equation that basically states:

"Performance = Fitness - Fatigue"

Put simply, your performance will be dictated by your level of physical fitness, coupled with how tired you are.

Your FITNESS might dictate that you can PERFORM a bench of 300 lbs, but because you're FATIGUED (tired), you can only PERFORM a bench of 250

Eventually, you get to the point where you are thoroughly busting your ass and you are starting to see that fatigue overtakes you (overreaching/overtraining phase). So at this point, fatigue has "won" (albeit temporarily) so many trainers will just quit for awhile (a week, sometimes weeks, sometimes several months). This is the ultimate in "missed opportunities"

The thinking man's trainer decides to take advantage of this by PLANNING to do this, using "Dual Factor theory". He increases his fitness levels using increasing levels of volume and/or weight and/or frequency and once he reads that fatigue has overtaken his body's recovery ability, he drastically cuts back on his frequency and/or volume and/or intensity. This allows for an active rest, so fatigue dissipates. however, he is STILL TRAINING, and his fitness levels continue to climb (or at least stay the same) while he 'rests'.

After a period of time...perhaps a "cruise" of 1 or 2 weeks, or perhaps an "active deload" of 3 weeks, or a "strategic deconditioning" period of 10 days, you are still "in shape" because you've been training, but you are well-rested, and you are ready to attack the weights again.

Methods of deload


HST is typically associated with what is known as "strategic deconditioning". The idea is that you don't need progressive resistance from cycle to cycle, only workout to workout. After 6-8 weeks of training under "classic HST", you take a week (or two) COMPLETELY off. As a result, your fitness level decreases (as does your performance), and fatigue is completely dissipated. The idea is that despite losing a good deal of strength and probably some muscle, the net gain from cycle to cycle will be in the positive.

The classic 5x5 using dual factor involves starting off with weights significantly below your present level of performance. After 3-5 weeks of consistent training and adding weight to the bar, you will begin hitting PRs. You will have accumulated a substantial amount of fitness as well as fatigue due to the consistent increase in volume and ESPECIALLY workload, as well as intensity. Then you use this increased fitness to increase performance by decreasing frequency and DRASTICALLY reducing volume.

Cruising, DC-style, and most of the deloads you will find in Westside and other programs is simply active rest in the weight room. Tons of different ways to do it...drop from 4 days per week to 2 days...lose all ME and DE work...do RE work with only 80%...lose ALL RE work, take 80% of your 10-RM and do 8 reps with it, drop all intensity techniques (i.e. no rest/pause or widowmakers), etc.

How you decide to "deload" is up to you, as it is a highly personal thing.

On a note, I've been conversing with Madcow via pm's. He advised against me starting off on dual factor, he gave me a few ideas about switching things up and deloading.

I'm currently trying out a new rep/set scheme of 3 x 3, but still based on the 5 x 5 principle of a whole body workout and hitting each bodypart frequently.

Figured I might aswell tack this, lots of useful info.

Oh... so that's where it went. Heh.... for a while i panicked cos all the effort of typing might have been gone to waste.

Hey just a noob question here but pls tell me...

does dead lift same as those weight lifter in olympic sports?

will it make u become shorter?sorry...but seriously...mostly weightlifter are short

Yes its similar movement to some of the olympic lifts. No it wont make you short. If you've already stopped growing, you wont become shorter because of lifting. If you're still growing, the chances of lifting stunting your growth is lower than playing soccer or any contact sport.

This post has been edited by darun: Nov 16 2006, 08:41 AM

Arnold Schwarzenegger isn't short.

Cause he ate all of colombu's food!!!

Darun, i will need a few details from you, like how long have you been on the SF 5 x 5, are you feeling burned out or are you still progressing, etc? Like i said, deloading may prove to have more benefits than just taking a week off completely. I've customized my 5 x 5 program, made quite a few changes like adding in ME and RE days, but still sticking to Madcow's principles of full body workouts and hitting each bodypart twice a week. If anyone is interested, i'll post it.

I'm at week 8, my bench is stagnating but my chest is my weakest part so far (i should probably reset back a couple weeks). Not really feeling burnt out, but definitely not as energetic as before, could be the all the new PRs post week 4. My squats and deads are still progressing but the new PR in these past week was not easy. My rows, surprisingly has no problems at all.

Ok, the thing is, for most trainees, the bench press is usually the first to fail because msot trainees are more advanced in it than they think. How many of us when we first started bodybuilding always paid top priority to the bench press? Heh, i know i did, it was like synonymous with everythign that is bodybuilding. So hence, the reason it usually stagnates first. Sicne you're still progressing on everythign else, albeit a bit more difficult to add weight progressively, i don't think you're having a burnout.

I cut a few clips from the above articles i posted which may or may not address your issue.

Bear in mind i'm not suggesting you start the dual factor program as even Madcow dissuaded me from starting it. I'm suggesting you apply some dual factor principles to your 5 x 5. Typing more, hold on.

This post has been edited by darklight79: Nov 16 2006, 11:39 AM

This is what Madcow replied to me in a pm when i told him i might consider starting the dual factor as my bench, MP, deadlifts were starting to stagnate as you know when i trained with you at CEleb Fitness that one time:-

Keep in mind that you don't just reset the stock 5x5 program. Do some different things along the same lines before moving to that sort of thing. Maybe try a 10 rep variation if you are into that. Modify the template, do whatever. Point being, before you start opting for 1 increment of progress every 4-8 weeks, make sure you really need that and the rep range/template you have been running simply isn't very stale

It seems the dual factor, however effective it may be, will have me progressing very slowly and i think i've still got more potential to progress faster than the rate the dual factor program might give me. He also gave me this link:-

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost...7&postcount=958

So, after that said and done, I've began to customize my program, i handed in the rough template to Madcow and Kethnaab (another very knowledgeable individual whom Madcow recognizes) and i got their approval. Here is a sample of Day 1 and Day 3.

Day 1 (ME Day) : Bench press 3 x 3
Squats 3 x 3
Weighted hammer chins 3 x 3
Adding in sit ups and hyperextensions here
*All straight sets

Day 3 (RE Day) : Bench press 3 x 10
Pendlay rows 3 x 10
Squats 3 x 10
Some direct arm work
* tentatively straight sets here most likely
**thinking of adding in GHRs here

I still haven't decided on Day 2 but I'm dropping deadlifts from them a while, and doing assistance exercises like SLDL's and GHR's. Kethnaab suggested a mixture of ME and RE sets for MPs and SLDL's, where i ramp to a top set of 3-5 and then a down set of 8-10.

Keep in mind this program is specifically tailored for MY needs because i need to bring up my vertical pulling strengths, such as hammer chins and pull ups, hence the ME rep/set scheme for hammer chins.

darun.. what u can actually do is quite simple.. just reset ur bench like 2 weeks back, and go from tehre again.. and if ur other lifts are advancing.. y kacau it? ride those PRs as long as u can.. and i've also identified what most ppl facee when stagnating on the bench.. it's actually in madcows site.. he DID say that bench will be the first thing that stagnates.. y? becuz according to the excel template, ur weekly increment is very minimal.. like 1kg per week.. but with our commercial gyms around here.. the minimal increase per week is 2.5kg(both sides) which is alot!! so what i did is i went and bought some 0.5kg plates and my bench was able to continue progressing!

and u're in your 8th week of the 5x5.. where u'll defenitely feel taxed.. deadlifting continuously for 8 weeks heavy of cuz will burn u out.. maybe u could take deads out this week and continue the next? or u could end it at week 10 and deload for a week and start another cycle?

it's all about planning..