some clarifications on what you guys have said.



(Disclaimer: I own a production house)

If you just need to "shoot stuff", then I would definitely suggest using HDD-based camera. most of these cameras have lots of output settings such as MPEG2-TS (dvd-like), DV, etc. why HDD-based? because you don't have to bother the wait of transferring footages in realtime. suits the purpose of "just shoot2 stuff" I think. and virtually all hdd-based cameras have inferior lenses, which does (should) not mean anything to you. heck, go and get a Hi8 format camera even, it doesn't really matter to you. just that maybe later a bit susah to buy Hi8 tapes la. note: Hi8 records to Digital8 format, which is about the same quality with DV, but the camera itself is of lower quality so almost always the picture quality is lesser. but ONLY lesser than expensive camcorders lah. If you are here, I suggest to shoot in MPEG2 mode. because almost always, you will wanna burn to DVD right? not to send to tv station. plus, it wont eat your hdd like crazy, hehe.

however, if you WANT to be so-called a semi-pro or pro shooters, AND having quality pictures, then that's a whole different thing already. BUT, remember that the gears that you have doesn't matter. you have shoot in 1080p mode, but if your shots, lighting are crap then no point. its your technique that matters, seriously. the only difference between the group above and below is just the camera, and the camera's features. itu sahaja.

first set a budget. I don't know about "cheap cameras", as I deal with RM20+ to hundreds of thousands of RM cameras but if you can get your hands on a Sony VX1000, 2nd hand even, then GO GET IT! a lot of digicam pros nowadays start their life with VX1000.

however, miniDV is just the tape. to put it simply, miniDV is just a kind of storage. 20k cameras or 3k cameras, they all use miniDV. but what sets RM20,000 cameras apart from the normal RM3k ones are the features and the lenses. case in point: NASA satellite, the one that went to Mars, uses only 1 megapixel camera. but the image that came out beats any camera on earth by 1000x, no kidding! The lens alone costs RM4 juta sahaja

For starters, I would definitely avoid considering anything HD, or HDV. it's nice to have that feature, but don't consider that even for a second. worthless, for your concern lah. what you should look for is the lens quality (#1), how heavy it is (VERY IMPORTANT!), how stable it is to be hold BY YOU. to be honest, even if the camera is RM10000000, if its too big to be handled by you after a few hours, then no point what. because you need to have good, stable shots, and the heavier the camera is, the harder it is to make it stable after a while. but you don't want the cams to be so light also lah. i suggest, when you want to get a cam, go to a kedai, then ask for that camera, then ask if you can hold the cam, and then you discuss with the orang kedai while holding the cam, just to get the feel of the cam for more than 5 mins.

if the camera has a handle, a big, big plus. u'd be surprised how great a shot can look when you hold it with the handle. but I suppose Rm3k cameras don't really have this feature, right? moving on.......

always, always, have at least 2 batteries. the standard one, and the long-lasting ones. a note: sony cams is great on this part. for some reason sony cams have super gila punya batteries. my sony nw-hd5 mp3 player also can last for 45 hours nonstop. so if battery life is important to you, then search sony cams lah.

and it goes without mention that ask only about the optical zoom, not the total zoom, combined zoom, or digital zoom. those are WORTHLESS. like 3x, 5x, 10x lah. not 100x, 1000x.

if it can take picture, then ok la. but not really important. unless you want to use the same cam to take pictures also lah. but then if you are in this group, then you really are in the first "just shoot2" group. get a hdd based one. better value, no need to get those stupid memory sticks or sd cards. and besides, if you really have to take a still pic with a camcorder, just record a few seconds to miniDV tape, then get a frame from your editing software lah.

as for picture quality, point #1 is have a great lens. not Hi8, not miniDV. point #2, choose the best recording format. MPEG2, or MPEG2-TS is the lowest that you wanna go (just don't). its like this la (might be incorrect, I just woke up ) -
MPEG2>DV,Digital8>DVCPRO50>DigiBeta>Uncompressed world

just remember that this is a technical comparison, not picture quality. again, picture quality = $$ lens. and please, oh please, don't ever shoot in LP mode. if you like to have longer time to shoot than just 60 mins, then you are in the hdd group. trust me, you'll be a lot happier being there. Note: sony just released 83min miniDV tape.

next time I will talk about NLEs lah. NON LINEAR EDITING. or post production. or the editing softwares.

a few short tips before I mandi.
1. if you have low budget, then stop dreaming about good quality. no such thing as cheap, good quality, can cook for you, etc.
2. stick with what you have, and be happy. focus more on what you can do - SHOT QUALITY!
3. something to always remember by when going miniDV/digital. the one biggest flaw with these cameras compared to analog cameras like BETA cams are the lighting condition. you want good looking picture? then GET MORE LIGHT!

no point having canon XL1 but shoot in poor lighting condition. if you can, try to shoot where the light actually ENTERS the camera's lens ke, use bounce light ke. but the general rule is if it looks just nice with your eyes, then add more light. camera lens is bad compared to God's lens, trust me
4. "For service, go back to their manufacturing service centre. Don't hope for the shop."
You get what you pay for. If you want to save a few hundred by buying dekat kedai yam seng dan anak, then don't cry like hell when you drop your camera or the lens calar. because sometimes they can sell cheap because they import. and most imported cameras ("grey cams" what we call them) are not covered locally as far as i know.
5. stabiliser/antishaker mode - a big, big plus.

if you really need to save a few hundred by buying there not in official distributors, then better wait a few more months lah, and search and learn shooting techniques during that time.

good luck!

This post has been edited by C-Fu: Sep 10 2006, 11:23 AM

www.youtube.com is a great place to share vids for starters.

and mvx3i? KEEP IT! its a great camera, superb lens. seriously dude that is a great cam for the price, its still a great one even now. just learn how to use the aperture and gain up settings.

This post has been edited by C-Fu: Sep 10 2006, 11:19 AM

hmmmmmmm which lens is the best.....

i also dunno how to check

well, I guess the best way is to do your research via google, DV magazine, etc. first. magazine reviews are great, IMO. although camcorder mags are kinda expensive, you don't really have to get them every single month.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com is good, but there are hundreds of great camcorder or dv sites. dvguru la, studiodaily la, dvguru la, dvcreators la - best to check around for info on which cam to use, on which budget. http://www.videoguys.com/ is perhaps the biggest (but crappiest looking haha) site for video stuff.

http://www.downloadsquad.com/2006/09/08/pr...-videos-part-1/
check this out. some dude made a great video, with a DIGITAL CAMERA. not a camcorder. perfect example of using what he know, not what he has.

Hi8 is a very underrated technology, IMO. if you have great lighting setup, good shots, you can in fact produce great looking videos.

rule of thumb that most amateurs and hobbyists don't like to follow: be patient and hassle yourself more with the shoot setup, like lighting, etc. than trying to hassle yourself like hell in NLE. i find it very nice to see and read how people shoot DVuse with what you can get for cheap. those damn DV guerillas.... you want great lights? use tangloons!

http://www.izzyvideo.com/
eh what's this?
http://digitalliving.cnet.co.uk/specials/0...280337-1,00.htm
eh?


a question, did you guys went to the recent IBIS at KLCCC? rugi la if you didn't go!

This post has been edited by C-Fu: Sep 10 2006, 10:53 PM

then you are in the "just shoot2 stuff" lo. which means that I'd have to recommend you to get hdd-based cameras.

but really, mpeg2 isnt really designed for editing, so you might encounter problems with it.

and if you really want editing, then you gotta invest lah. aiyo how much is a 400gb sata harddisk nowadays wat.

if you think those three lenses are the best ones, wait till you see RED lenses for yourself...... OMG

RED cams are like ferrari, and your average consumer camcorders are like..... basikal XD

every single cam fanatic that I've seen and read about are pissing in their pants waiting for this cam to come out.....

http://red.com/

macam robot siot! u like 12MP dSLR cameras? well how about 12MP video cameras?



what about premiere pro 2.0?

This post has been edited by C-Fu: Sep 14 2006, 04:17 AM

I only know the everio series for hdd-based cams...

what are you gonna use it for?

get one that feels good IN YOUR HANDS, good image stabiliser, good battery life. for consumer camera, these things are much more important than this gizmo or that gizmo.

This post has been edited by C-Fu: Sep 20 2006, 11:10 AM

don't get the best. you want the best? buy a $20k camera.

no budget? then jangan mimpi la

better to get something that is GOOD for your kind of usage. features like 3ccd carl zeiss whatever is useless for newbies like you. what is useful are features like battery life, long record time (hdd-based cams), etc are what you really need.

when you have these cams, then you will learn how to go around the camera limitations. if your cam is bad at low light, figure out how to go around that. if your cam has bad image quality, then figure out how to shoot and focus better. these skills are much, MUCH more important than getting a cam that does everything including cook lunch for you.

because frankly, there is no such thing as bad quality image. just bad quality shots. never, EVER, fall in love with marketing gizmos and terms that doesnt tell how good the camera really is. read my long, long, past post for more info.

why those old, evergreen movies like P Ramlee ones or La Dolce Vita are remembered? the cams are hideously difficult to operate. quality also are bad compared to the cams nowadays. but the story, the shots, the techniques that they use to work around their technological limitations - these are the things that made people remember them.

trust me, 30 50 years from now, when we probably will have cameras that can rotate around you in 3d or something, people will still remember how awesome the 1st matrix was. why? because of how they try to go around the limitation of current tech when creating "bullet time" by putting lots and lots of cameras around the actor.

and besides, if you get the best cam, then you cannot spend more on extra 2 batteries, pc hardware to capture, good tripod, etc. which one would make sense: get a cam + tripod + batteries + accessories or just a cam?


you know, one thing that I notice in this forum is that a lot of people care more about cmos or 3ccd or 1 lux or anything carl zeiss than how to shoot, guerilla techniques, etc. how come? I guess it's a bit strange for me, coming from a production house where I see people share techniques, things like ooh dv cams dont have DOF like betacams, so how do we compensate..... you know, things like that.

the fastest would be the length of footage lor, assuming you have a realtime vcd recorder - software or hardware.

if you want the shortest time, then go and get hdd-based cams, or dvd-based cams (avoid like hell, PLEASE! but if you must....)

but why you wanna burn straight to vcd la? miniDV is like the perfect partner for dvd la, not vcd. and i havent seen any vcd recorder hardware/player or software. like you sambung the cam to the player, and press record on the player, that kinda thing. dvd recorder got la.\

but basically if all you care is vcd conversion, then it will never be 60 mins (DV tape length). its 60 mins + conversion to vcd format + burning to vcd format. conversion n burning depends on your pc hardware, and cdr speed.


it's 10-15 mins to DVD for me. Cuz I bought a four processor beast for very, very, very cheap (my friend works in Dell oz )

This post has been edited by C-Fu: Sep 22 2006, 03:11 AM

of course not the same quality as professional films in dvd format.

its like taking a picture in jpeg format. all cams can take in jpeg. but not all jpegs are of the same quality. same as dv.

dv to dvd, you get about 1:1 output.

10 gigs of space? you cant even defrag, so why bother using that hdd for anything else? there will be dropped frames, slowdowns, etc.

Have you tried using other softwares like premiere?

how about using other firewire port? but then again, if you are able to cucuk the cable and xp installed the driver successfully, then the cam should appear in My Computer.

some guy created a very very cool video editing software, done entirely with FLASH.

http://www.onyx-vj.com/demo/

very, very cool way to mix videos in real time, damn easy to create an abstract video out of it.

I still hate that stupid pixelfont that flash designers like, though

I personally prefer onyx 1's IDE compared to the newer version.

http://www.404404.com/onyx/preview/

This post has been edited by C-Fu: Sep 29 2006, 01:39 AM

I think $20k cameras are semi pro

Honestly dude, I have absolutely no idea about sub $20k cameras, save for some outstanding ones. not sombong or anything ok I dunno how much is a sony pd-150, but if you can get that one then great!

With a budget of 8k, I'd say get a 5-6k camera, and 2-3k worth of capture card + software (like pinnacle ones, although I personally would never touch pinnacle cards la hehe), batteries, tapes, LIGHTS, and those cone-shaped long mike. With a good bag please

then you can call yourself semi-pro heheh

2 hours?! crazy. What sorta DV tape is he using? and under what condition, like shooting at the beaches ke, etc?

just bought a 2k cam, canon mvx1si. just a bit over 2000, with a sony tripod, extra battery, tapes, bag. wanted to get one originally because i need a dv tape drive asap, but the cam seems quite good lah, was quite surprised on how cheap cams progressed nowadays. 2k can get almost tv quality. got it from boeing sg wang, excellent hamsap boeing guy helped me to pick one

the cam comes with a built in flash (for still) and light (for video). nothing fancy, but good to have one IMO. can be used for insert shots i think.

20something. like less than 2100 lah. goto boeing for more info, they're having lots of promotions right now.

but don't ask me about these cheap2 cams, as i've no idea about how great this cam is compared to other cams. i bought it because it fits my requirements lah:

- no need for great quality lcd
- good list of manual functions
- easy to control
- fast tape loading, rewinding
- got lampu built in, or at least cheap lampu
- 3ccd or almost 3ccd, if i want to use this cam, it will only be used for insert shots only, and so far it's been wonderful at that
- able to view and transfer footages on miniDV tape captured from my big big big sony cam (IMPORTANT! some cheap cams cannot view or use different branded tapes, or cannot view tapes with contents recorded from different cams, beware!)

the original promo price was 19xx, comes with a stupid 50 bucks tripod. i managed to ask him to change that to a proper sony tripod, and oh yeah i managed to haggle the price to just 2000, not 20-something just remembered.

This post has been edited by C-Fu: Nov 6 2006, 08:23 AM

what's the resolution like when shooting in movie mode?

read my first page post.

simple. use the old dv cam solely for insert shots and tape drive for capture purposes, and use the new dv cam for your main shots. this way you wont wear off the new dv cam's tape drive.

consider this: you already have the technology (DV). so why would you want to use a newer technology (HDD,MPEG2-based) mixed with DV in your workflow? that's just like asking for trouble.

I personally wouldn't touch hdd-based cams like I said on the first page of this thread, but hey, if you think you cannot let your pc to turn on for an hour extra everynight to let it capture the miniDV footages to your pc while you're asleep, then by all means....

because i think everybody will agree with me that when something like your sayang complains that your home video tak siap lagi is always because of the laziness to edit, not the laziness to capture to hdd.

as for Sony's AVCHD cams, I'd avoid it like how I would avoid hitting a lembu on the road . The "weird" compression makes almost all current editing suit go haywire, not to mention that it takes huuuuuge amounts of processing power to handle. bloody hell makes my 8-processor dell monster run like chicken man! *@&#(*@&$

This post has been edited by C-Fu: Nov 20 2006, 12:42 PM

Not literally mudah pecah la. It's more like.... fragile in the sense that it's video performance, video quality, etc makes my head very fragile to pecah

at least, wait for a year for the tech to fully develop. but i'm speaking as a producer, so I dunno lah really what you consumers really want. I suppose hdd-based cams are really really convenient and easy to use. 60 gig hdd would get you like 5 tapes worth of DV content, but I think, as a pro consumer or a learning filmatographer (not a normal consumer lah, but can apply as well), this actually encourages you to just film-this-film-that, because you don't really have that storage constraint. so it'll be harder and less reason for you to plan your shots well. when it says you have 60 minutes left on the screen, instead of 300+ minutes, you just have to plan on how long u want to film that wedding.


because, end of the day, when you want to edit, you just have to watch every single clip that you've taken, right? so would you want to watch a tape or two of a wedding, or 300+ minutes of continuous footage just because you can?

Dunno bout you, but I've yet to encounter any major problems editing with MOV. You know, since a lot of clips of supers and titlings and effects are in MOV format...

Probably because I refrain myself from using subpar editing programs like pinnacle or windows media player.