Really noob here, don't flame OK?

I am wondering, with those pick-up truck whose performance numbers are like those of performance car... and half the price of performance car... why does one need a performance car?

I am of course being a total noob and comparing pick up like Isuzu V-Cross/Triton VGT versus WRX/Golf GTI.

Their numbers are almost the same... 200ps/350Nm, 4WD and sold for around RM 100K. I can buy two of these one, say a TritonVGT and one Isuzu V-Cross, still got extra spare cash to buy accessories some more.

Honestly, I don't know why anyone would still want those performance car...

Car Noob

fark!...need to digest what uve written there....., when ur born??

Gear ratio
Handling

not every1 like pickup truck..

Bring your pickup truck to Sepang.

cos is pick up truck different with performance~ if u using just for transportation any car u also can buy ~ myvi is 1/4 price of performance go add turbo u also can go up to that 200hp/350nm ,

beside the normal different thing, mostly man buy car is present his face ~
most important ting ~ if u going out ~ pick up truck u need invite girl come to ur car , performance girl will automatic come to request go in to ur car ~ XD

and girls will most probably get in the Impreza than the pickup

What? u smoke what lately?

Performance is not about just that number....
BTW, did you sit in a performance car before?

What is gear ratio? what does it mean?

Yes, I have test driven a Golf GTI before....it's errrm... Fast!

Can I expect the handling of a the Triton to be good on winding country road?

My theory is simple

If u need to bring more stuffs, get the pickup. Otherwise, settle for a car.

That's all

Bro, 200ps/350nm might be the same, but the weight of pickup truck is nearly 2 tonnes and acceleration might be worst than a saga

If you're expecting a pick-up truck with a car-like handling & comfort, you will be severely disappointed.

I almost fainted when I read the question.

don't lar like this bro.... Totally car noob mah!

handling (center of gravity, suspension setup, steering feel, blablabla)
weight (net weight, weight distribution)
gearing (ratio, gear feel)
braking (brake distribution, braking distance, blablabla)
and many more.

in short, u cant simply compare by numbers alone.

Some basic differences
- chassis dynamics (high center of gravity, aerodynamics, body roll)
- steering feel
- gear ratio (lower gears tend to b shorter for trucks)
- NVH
- twitchy truck rear end due to missing weight at rear end
- diesel vs petrol torque curve and power delivery

In summary, since u hv driven a Golf GTI u can try test driving a truck to feel it yourself.

This post has been edited by Deja Vu: Jul 8 2014, 03:24 PM

Why not go test drive a Triton and drive the same way you drove the golf gti? If you can't feel the differences, our conversation end here.

in that, you mean no chicks like pickup truck???

You need to add one more criteria to your theory as well...

if you want to be "parking hero"... pickup truck as well...

Basic to get a fast car.

a) Power to weight ratio

b) Higher HP and Torque (manageable)

i oso kenot brain

I will head to the nearby Mitsubishi SC for a test drive...

Test drive also like...cannot give u a clear idea I think..

Pickup trucks biggest problem at high speeds is that crosswind at highways can make the truck body wobble easily because of the high ride height. You can feel that there is a force that is pushing the truck sideways...

Then the rear leaf spring suspension is not helping too. With no load the back, the rear will hop if corner fast on uneven roads, so you will lose traction and bang tree.

This post has been edited by k!nex: Jul 8 2014, 04:26 PM

Well a modded diesel pickup could give sportscars a run for its money due to its massive torque. Just forget bringing it to the track as it wouldn't handle corners well.

why buy truck..if u can buy used ford tdci...fews mode u can draw 200whp from the engine...but..its auto

The thing is, this car cannot buy new ones anymore.. Ford don't sell it already. too bad la.

This post has been edited by k!nex: Jul 8 2014, 04:34 PM

Actually OP has a point.

Why buy a sports car that can't kaotim some IKEA shopping?

Buy ranger/dmax/navara, get sports car performance and the practicality...

it's not a stupid question. it's only stupid if you are unsure but pretend that you have the answers. anyway I see there are already a few summarized answers in point form, given by the kind forumers above.

anyway, to visualize the differences in a simple way, is imagine yourself, wearing running shoes and clothes, and running down the track. and next imagine yourself, wearing slacks, shirt, tie and a coat, carrying a heavy briefcase, running down the same track. which version of you will you think runs faster, and easier to turn corners?

Test driven the Triton VGT 2.5 this evening. I love the red colored variant.

The power is there, 178Ps can really give pecutan yang hebat!

However, the handling is rather stiff and off-road like. With the Triton, I dare not take sharp corner, the roll is felt more.

Compared to the Golf GTI, Golf GTI is nimble, agile and zippy fast probably due to its lighter weight and lower center of gravity. I terms of raw power, the Triton is no pushover. FC will be greater with the Triton.

But Golf GTI is double the price, and that is the biggest bone of contention.

Does a regular salariiman like me need to compromise and get a Triton that is "almost a sport performance vehicle" or go all out and get the real stuff?

He may not survive that.


Keep in mind that this pickup truck is an absolute beast. 411 hp, tuned suspension, etc.

Pickup trucks are meant for hauling stuff, or, when modified, to do this:



For 90k you could get a Peugeot 208. It doesn't have as much power, but it will handle much better. Or spend a little more on a 208 GTI. Or Polo GTI. There are other options that make more sense than a pickup, if you just want to have power/go fast. Keep in mind that trucks roll and crash easily. They are much more likely to crash than regular cars, and that's with people who probably don't think of it as a sports car.

Btw. a Mercedes Actros can have 625 hp and 3000 Nm at 1100 rpm. Do you think it's a good choice for racing?



This post has been edited by kadajawi: Jul 8 2014, 08:46 PM

Buy what you can really afford, don't force your self to buy something out of your capability.
If you're happy enough with such pick up truck then just buy it but again it's nowhere near a sports car. You can upgrade the power to make it quite fast in straight line but performance is not just about going straight, there's braking performance and cornering performance to make it a complete package.

Regular salary man don't jump into performance vehicles.. Fuel is expensive and tyre also expensive... Besides that you pay more for roadtax too compare to a Golf GTI and Pickup truck tyres are not cheap... Look at the size. Regular salary man buy fuel efficient vehicles, save money and buy houses

1 thing good about the Triton vs Golf GTI, if you come out from toll plaza and try to squeeze in lanes during traffic jam, in the Triton, small cars don't dare squeeze u coz they will only hit your tyres or your side step since you're a truck.

Pickup trucks are amongst the worst handling cars there are. Any conti will do better, no matter how powerful. If you want good handling, get a Fiesta, 208, Polo. They will drive circles around the pickup.

This post has been edited by kadajawi: Jul 9 2014, 03:16 AM

Thanks, road handling is very high on my priority list. So I can now strike off pick up my to buy list now... it is a slow short listing by process of deduction.

wan a good handling car is dry or wet road condition , I think Subaru car is the 1 u can experience it ~

Or Lancer Evo.

Well, for handling go conti (especially Ford) or WRX STI, EVO, GT-R, GT86. The Japanese can make great handling cars, but their normal passengers have a different focus (which is ok, not everyone wants good handling, some prefer comfort).

A pick up truck diesel is now assumed to have "sports car" performance now? Wow...

If the pick up truck has torque(not performance mind you) like a Saga or Myvi, it"ll be an extreme slow ass that even a Viva will start honking at the back.

Don't even mention the league of hot hatches, these Triton diesel pickups won't even overtake a normal C segment cars like Altis/Civic/Focus in a straight line. In corners they will run rings around it like a big giant trying to catch a mouse.

Key points
- A diesel engine because it needs to produce enough torque to move that heavy ass
- Torque is sufficient to move from low to mid rpm so that you can get the thing moving from stationary easier
- Makes the car start going easier, but hardly build high speed afterwards
- In an uphill from stationary, a pickup may feel like a hero, but after that falls short very quickly when it needs to go faster



This post has been edited by dtna7: Jul 10 2014, 04:28 AM

i notice thailand chick craze for man with pickup truck..
but not for average chicks around..

Subaru... darn lansi, cannot test drive their WRX or STI.

Evo X now cost RM 330K. Way out of my budget.

PM zenockl85 la... i am sure he can fix you up with something...

do they even have test drive models or not first? if dun have then there is nothing you can do about it la...

but if they have... sometimes they don't want to attend to you because they think you are just there for a joyride... happened to my friend once before trying to test drive other cars (was trying to test drive the clio rs without any intention to buy it at all)... they were right at that point la... maybe his face already told them his true intentions...

Dude, have u sat in a re-chipped triton b4? It's no problem at all winning those traffic lights drag against a stock golf gti. Last time a triton was able to keep up with my 200+hp rb20 from 40-80+kmh.

Their sprint to 100-ish is absolutely mind-bogging but of course, just like what you've mentioned, they'll struggle after that. And their body-roll is damn scary too.

Are you listening to yourself?

A pickup truck to make the century sprint at 6.5sec?

You'd need to spend A LOT to make that happen with a pickup truck, which isn't the point of this thread, is it?

Who ask you to buy new
Used EVO X is like 160k 170k nowadays
But err if you know nothing about car getting an EVO X is not exactly the most clever thing to do
Beside knowing the car itself,you also have to know how to drive to enjoy it(How to take racing line,control understeer/oversteer,weight transfer etc)
Not to mention performance car consumable are more costly(18" performance tyre,brake pad for Brembo,SST oil etc etc)

OK OK... no Evo for me (too hardcore).. looks like I am leaning towards the Golf GTI most likely the Tech Spec. It is a good entry level car for a noob like me who wish to partake in a more exhilarating drive.

I thought you are going for a pickup turbodiesel?
The GTi is a great car. But it's down on horsepower compared to the others. But it's the most usable and mature looking.

Focus ST is better if pure driving experience is what you want. The best is, pf course the Megane 265. But u have to accept the cheap looking interior.

This post has been edited by dtna7: Jul 10 2014, 10:31 PM

My initial wants is a high performance car with exceptional road handling. My question wrt turbo diesel pick up was more of curiosity because when I look at the performance numbers they are the same, with half the price of GTI or WRX. So it got me thinking whether can one replicate that kind of driving pleasure with those pick up. Of course now I know it cannot.

Hmmmm, wrt Focus ST, yeah, it can be considered as well. Btw GTI and ST, which gives a better road handling? E.g less body roll when taking fast corners, more stable etc....

I have also read about Suzuki Swift excellent road handling.... If she can be just as good as the GTI, then I may consider, I don't need fast car, because of our traffic speed limit. What I need is a zippy car that can take corner well, minimum body roll, good accelaration, not sluggish.

Thanks in advance for your advise.

u can try testdrive swift sport, it is a lot more cheaper and very good handling at corners. But this car is not fast enough la

Fast is moot point if one is not ever going to the track. Being fast on our road is inviting traffic summons, which I have no intention of getting it. Hence fast is not high on my priority list, but good handling, good acceleration (power & torgue), good fc numbers are high on my priority list.

Yeah, I will definitely check out Swift 1.6 sport variant this weekend.

Again from a non-hardcore motor sport enthusiast, why spend RM 200K or more if I can find a similar car that cost half of it and still give one the same performance or slightly lower. Again, I am thinking from a reasonable man perspective, not from a fan-boy perspective.

I could use the money saved to mod the car should I chose to.

then just a mundane point a to b car la

anything that's exhilarating/spirited driving WILL involve traffic summons.

80/110kph is achieved in 10-15 seconds +/- even on mundane point a to b car.
even a friggin kancil 660 manual can do that without much sweat
and *MOST* cars can deal 80/110kph cornering/speeding with ease.

so yea, non hardcore? dont want summons? go get the cheapest proton saga or perodua myvi. it'll fit your needs.
whatever saved go mod TRD, put super huge gt wing spoiler, get beng hid/led/wheels voila done.

wow.... you are all over the place...

like quazacolt says... anycar is capable of breaking the speed limit nowadays.... and as for how fast can a car go... it depends highly how much the driver values his own life...

of course, the GTi is not a bad handling car.. but when it comes down to other cars in market... it is not the best... it does make up for it in better ride qualities and stuff....

as for the suzuki swift sport... that is a cheap car looking from comparing it with the golf GTi... but, really... once you've seen it.... you'd think twice before spending RM100k on that car.. the golf might be twice that value, but at least you get your worth when you buy that... and worst, the SSS is not really a whole lot fast in terms of acceleration, if you place it side by side a GTi...

so, your needs are just covering a whole lot of area... what you need to is prioritize what is your wants and needs such as price, value, performance-handling, performance-acceleration, looks, quality and etc...

what it feels now is that you are looking for a cheap car which can does everything from the handling of a lotus elise, to the acceleration of the R35 to the ride comfort of a Maybach and cost no more than a honda civic.. which evidently doesn't quite exist in this world..

so, you need to tie down your requirements in order to filter the list of cars in the market...

Thanks, it is darn hard to get a good car, I hope you understand my predicament. I love to enjoy the pleasure of driving but I do not wish to pay a king's ransom for it. Mine is hard earned money and I want to stretch it.

But thanks to all of you guys for engaging me in my banter... through you folks I learn so much more about car. I'll still lurk around this forum and learn more until I find something I like. I am in no hurry, it is after all, a hobby buy.

Dude, stop using those useless data provided by manufacturer. Are u saying a pickup able to keep up with my rb20 is an illusion?

Do u think u can get consistently 6.5sec on the street? I've sat in a chipped MK5 b4, yes it's damn fast due to the DSG.

A unichip-ed /alphatech-ed(which is just a rm2-4K) triton/hilux/ranger is producing arnd 200+ hp too, maybe even more. So u think they're really slow?

if it helps, browse through my runs on my youtube http://www.youtube.com/user/Quazacolt/videos

an inspira is a very standard point a to b car, however in the videos you can see most of them are over 80/110kph, with relative ease.

at some points tires making music as well.

how much it cost? just a bit over 60k brand new
but came with free lemonade la... and only mine had it so eh, who knows if you get better luck.

rofl the bolded.

but yeah as you said: most importantly is ts to find his exact requirements and filter through from there.

Firstly, i don't know how you concluded i "use useless data provided by manufacturer".

Secondly, I am not interested in your rb20. It was mentioned that the pickup truck can be as fast as a GTi. Hence I rubbish that a pickup truck can do 6.5s on a century sprint in stock. (8s is not even reachable)

And then you went on to the mod region.
Even a potong saga can be as fast as you want it if you pour cash on it.
Since you bring out the "mod" topic (which was clearly out of context), do you know what a GTi can do with a stage 1 chip? (at a mere RM 3k, just an ECU Tune)

Honestly, I don't know why I am entertaining you.

This post has been edited by dtna7: Jul 11 2014, 07:10 PM

Maybe those chicks were guys?

The Ford Raptor does 100 in around 6.6s, mind you we're talking about a petrol V8 with 400+ hp. That a diesel pickup with some small modifications can do it... kind of unlikely.

The Swift Sport seems a good choice. I think what you're looking for is a car that makes you feel like going fast, and is fun at that, it doesn't actually have to be fast. (Of course the Viva gives you that feeling even more... ). Alternatives are the Peugeot 208 GTI, Renault Clio RS, Ford Fiesta ST, or if you don't need so much power the regular versions of these cars could be what you want. Do test drive please.

@Quazacolt: Have you watched Chris Harris driving his Citroen 2CV? 12 hp, and he's having the time of his life. You can't lift off in corners, despite massive body roll, because if you lose momentum you'll be slow for the next 10 minutes. The Top Gear guys keep repeating the most fun you can have is in a small, cheap car, because you can drive like a racing driver without ever risking your license. And there are small, "cheap" cars that are fun to drive. I won't forget driving an old Ford Ka. No power milo tin, but boy is it flat in corners. My girlfriends old Fiesta too, it handles pretty well, and the atrocious sound proofing ensure you'll feel like you're driving fast.

Bingo! I think you have just put the correct words in my mouth!

Yay! I will definitely test-drive Swift Sport this weekend...BTW I checked out ford malaysia website, mana ada Fiesta ST? You mean Focus ST izzit?

this? no i haven't watched that, however now that you mentioned - thanks! was a really interesting video/insight!

i suppose i could really relate a bit to my family/sis's kancil 660 manual... it gotten me to enjoy driving in a whole different perspective... it's slow sure... but hey on a good downhill i can pull 130-140kph anyways

and of course it poisoned me into the world of shift sticks, manual transmission

Try the other cars I've mentioned too. Maybe the non GTI, non RS, non ST versions will be enough for you (and they'll be much easier on your wallet ). There is a Fiesta ST, just not in Malaysia (yet). Likewise there is a regular Clio (the Clio RS is expensive, to say the least), but not yet in Malaysia (though Renault has apparently said it's going to come, and it will have around 120 hp). No info on pricing yet. Probably your best bet is the Fiesta Ecoboost.

Everybody know it's a comparison between an apple & an orange.

I'm providing a real-life scenario where a 100k truck + additional 2-4k will be able to produce some serious HP like a stock golf gti. Then u went berserk with all those paper performance data bla bla bla..

Who doesnt know a stock truck has no chance against a hot hatch?

Btw, what can that stage 1 does? Oh wait..i was told my 3rd gear pulls harder than his gti..i wonder what when wrong...

Well I have seen dyno charts where a 3.0 Navara was able to push around 280ps on the wheel, which is a lot more than what a Stage 1 Golf Mk6 GTI pushes. Both were dynoed on the same dyno machine.

The torque figure gap is much bigger as well . even our neighbour is using pickup as a track car.

Whatever Mr Out Of Context

i think it's not darn hard to get a good car... it is just very hard to get a car that satisfies everything that you can possibly expect / want....

you either end up with a car that can do most of what you expect it to do and cost way too much or you end up with something that is easy on the wallet but does only maybe half of what you expected to get.... buying a car is very seldom just what you see on paper or what the salesman tries to sell you.. you might need to look further into things like can you afford to maintain it? road going resale value should you 2 years down the road decided you want to go full uncle or full track junkie on the car? and etc....

you just need to understand what can you sacrifice to balance out between your needs and what you are willing to pay for...

as for how every person values a car's worthiness... it is very different... for a track junkie... maybe he would think paying 260k for an impreza is much more worth than paying 220k for a GTi or Beemer 335i with M Sport pack and a stylistic young exec who wants to be a chic magnet might consider the GTi for it being the classier hot hatch with more luxurious amenities.. there is no saying which is wrong... just what is right for you..

so, the best is to now dig around your phonebook and re-engage your petrol head friends who might possibly have any possible cars in your target list and see if they can give you a ride and even better... if they can let you drive it... and if they are willing to share, the quips of owning the cars they have..

from there on, make up your mind...

for me, no car is the right car as there are different cars for different situation.. there will be days i would want to be in a less bone rattling ride but still be fast.. there will be days i want to let out my teenage side and go on a rampage zig-zagging in the traffic like i am trying to run away from loan sharks... there will never be such a car that can satisfy myself....

This post has been edited by nm7: Jul 14 2014, 11:43 AM

it's not surprising that some un-expected cars is fast on the road... i've got outsprinted in a flat out run from the lights by a land cruiser before...but then, that thing has a 2JZ in it spewing out black smoke all the way...

i don't doubt pickups are fast on the road.. but bone stock ones in Malaysia... i doubt it can push you back into the seat as hard as some of the more dedicated petrol head cars even in stock form..

if mods come into the picture.. hell... i think sometime ago someone tried building a superfast isuzu d-max or something like that in Johor that can do 10s quarter mile runs... everything is possible if money is no object..

anyways, kinda out of topic as TS wants something that is exhilarating to drive... not something outright scary if he wants to take it go for some spirited driving...

well, there is a difference between fun and downright scary... it can be fun if you are within the limit of the car, but once over it... totally different story... but then, it's very specific to every individual... and this certainly does not apply to someone with a death wish...

at one point in time when grassroot autocross events were gaining popularity in town that small cars like kelisa was sweeping up the competition in it's own categories... then those fellas started swapping cars to be more competitive and swift was one of the more obvious choices before they headed into the big boys territory...

2JZ..

Mainly those pickups are modified just for drag. For me, hp vs hp, pickups nowadays are a force to reckon given that what the Thais has innovated.

What is more scarier is that their HP is more cheaper compares to petrol's.

with those pick-up truck whose performance numbers are like those of performance car...


Tell me, which part of my argument not related to the question of TS?

Wow that is incredible. What sort of competition does your neighbour partake in? I haven't seen a pickup during the local track days as well as local competitions yet. I have seen MPV's such as a VW Sharan as well as the Exora Bold during track days.

Well, at least we know that it isn't easy to drift in a pickup truck

The only competition i think pickup truck take part in is Drag Racing
Thailand have a lot of them,they even get own dedicated categories to race

The country where even keiichi tsuchiya is a total noob in drifting.
..

This post has been edited by nm7: Jul 14 2014, 09:00 PM

I suggest you go back and find your dusty dictionary that you don't know where you have put them and look for the word "as fast as".

I am done with you. Clearly you are clouded by your own ego.

Dude, you're the one who refuses to swallow back your own words.

I'm merely replying based on the 1st question of TS, even a forummer has provided a dyno figures which indicating a pickup can achieve 280ps without the need of almost 300k.

You just came out with 6.5s century sprint & then condemn pickups to eternity. I'm talking abt HP yet you are the one who refuses to accept the fact that pickups like Dmax, Triton, Navara are able to produce >200HP by using the amount less than the cost of a WRX.

Learn to debate healthy dude instead of just knowing how to name calling & making stupid remarks.

I did what you advised and dug out an old contact and invited him for some yumcha over kaya bread and half boiled egg during today's breakfast. He is a track enthusiast.

He told me to forget about buying new GTI/WRX etc. Get the EvoX recon at around RM 170K. He said more outside workshop are familiar with servicing the EvoX than GTI or WRX. Meaning mods are also easier with EvoX. Anything above 2010 model will be good.

GTI / WRX servicing is expensive and not many outside mechanic can do them. What are your guys opinion?

This post has been edited by xuzen: Jul 15 2014, 02:01 PM

Now go dig a hole for yourself and stop quoting me. You are not worth my time at all. I am not condemning pickups, and i know you drive a Hilux yourself, but don't get defensive and start accusing me things. Enough of making yourself look like a clown here.

My answer to you is simple. Try driving those Isuzu Triton at 240kmh and them slam on the brakes, and watch the world turn around you. No wait, it is you who is turning. round and round and round. And oh wait again, I dont think you can even reach those speeds. Now this is the difference between a performance car and those examples you mentioned.

This post has been edited by darenot: Jul 15 2014, 06:19 PM

Dei..even though numbers same..the weight of pickups more..

Actually I doubt you'd be spinning, you'd be rolling so much you'd embarrass the team that shot Casino Royale.

Pickup trucks are used for racing, though it's usually the offroad sort. They can also be used to do long distance jumps etc.

In any case, the TS is just looking for something fun to drive that doesn't break the bank. It doesn't need to be super fast. Fun to drive? That's something conti B segment hatches can easily do. If it's enough fun for the TS, I don't know. He'll have to try it out himself. That way he could get a new car for way under 100k.

I start to like you. You never failed to amuse me. I dont drive a hilux & not all pickups are called hilux lol.. I doubt u even know what's a RB, 2jz lol..

Nvm it's internet anyway, even your gti can fly.

i'm amaze the thread can reach 5 pages. means there's alot kind ppl in lyn.

anyway, when u decide to buy any vehicle, the first question comes is,

what u want to do with the vehicle?
what do you expect from the vehicle?

get some purpose and test drive and you will be able to decide which to look for.

Btw, a clown is supposed to like everyone.

This post has been edited by dtna7: Jul 15 2014, 08:46 PM

wait, the TS is looking for car buying advise? I thought he was asking why ppl still buy sports cars when trucks have better torque and horsepower? oh nevermind then

Muahahahaa... Do u think I will use a single cab to make a 200hp claim? That's my company work horse btw.

You're so funny man.. Rb20det can fit into a hilux? Omg..wakakaka... Let me give u some hints, A31.

If my examples are wrong, I've been shot to pieces? If I'm embarrassing myself, why do u need prove so much?

Man..you can be stand up comedian.

Cheers.

grow up pls.

I told you already. I am not interested in your Cefiro. Now shoo~
Go play somewhere else.

he isn't wrong.

evo x/lancers has been around since the 2006-2008 ish...
look up wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_4B1_engine

and of course, there's the inspiras around.

but see, i had some hints/mentions on the inspira, especially when you have concerns of getting speed tickets.
if you've checked out my youtube videos of the inspira (or hell the iswara rofl) you can see that all of them videos are way over the speed limit. so...

EvoX is a different animal altogether. Is outright speed+traction+track days what you want ONLY? If it is EvoX is a good choice. You'd have to accept the enormously high FC, Saga like interior (maybe a little tiny bit better ), harshest ride even when you are cruising along or stucked in traffic jam. If you are OK with all of that, go ahead.

This post has been edited by dtna7: Jul 16 2014, 08:51 AM

Oh i forgot to add, no one would want to be your passengers. If they do, they'll probably curse you or your car during the journey

its not as bad as described. its a subjective matter. i find thr ride pleasant. perhaps a little firm for ppl used to passenger cars, thats all.

considering i have my inspira, it's not as bad as most people put it to be.

granted, it won't be as good as VW's offering, but hey, an evo x is an evo x