I am posting this for my friend, who recently quit his job because he was bullied at work by new management. He is in a dilemma now - to choose between programming or support job.

My friend started working for a shipping company right after he finished his Advanced Diploma. My friend didnt come from a very well family. When he decided to start working much earlier than all of us, we advised against it but he went for it still because he thinks he is not studying-type of person so he should go work earlier to help his parents lighten the family burden and save money for his sister who was coming out from school to study Biotech in college.

For 4 years, he struggled and managed to save enough for himself to further his studies to degree level and to get himself a Honda City. He completed his online degree (Univ of Portsmouth UK, by Informatics / Sunway, not sure) in 2005. Due to working and studying at the same time, his result was poor and he only got a Third Class Honours Degree. Soon after that, using his own money, he paid for his own MCSE and CCNA.

My friend recently resigned 2 months ago after being bullied by the new management for several months. Apparently, while he was still serving the company under the previous boss, he was very happy because the boss has made him travel across Malaysia to setup other branch offices. He was also sent to Myanmar and Indonesia to setup their branch office there. He does all the support and maintenance of their servers, PCs, printers, CCTV, keyphone system, etc. He is also the ones who makes decision on all IT based matters like new hardware, new software, antivirus, meeting with custom software programmers, etc. The old management treat him with respect and care even though he didnt have a degree but is very hardworking and always willing to learn. *Trust me, he's my friend, I know.

Earlier 2006, this company he worked for shifted their office, he was the one who dismantle, pack, transport via lori, reconfigure and re-setup all the hardwares in the new office. Of course, Penny and I helped him out but we wont take credit from it because we only setup a few PCs for him while he did all the other hardwork.

After settling down in the new office, his boss told him that the shipping company needed a new custom software. The boss look highly upon him and told him to setup a team of programmers and write this custom software based on their own requirements. He learnt ASP.NET and C# diligently, did a trial run on a warehouse management system using ASP.NET and C#. I was the one who taught him, haha!! But halfway through his project, the new management took over, scrapped his idea and bought an off-the-shelf software that was already tailor-made for this industry. He was very disappointed, thus the resignation.

Now, he grew tired of handling idiots at work doing the dirty support job. He wants to go into programming field because IMHO, he had always had talent in programming but never had the time to study or look into it in detail. The reason why he wants to do programming is that he can earn extra money doing freelance job on his free-time after work.

In programming aspect, he have knowledge in Pascal, Foxpro, C++, ASP.NET, C#, ADO.NET, SQL, HTML, XML. I will be teaching him Java next. Design aspect, he knows Photoshop, Illustrator, Fireworks, Dreamweaver and I think he is working on a personal website as his portfolio now. He do not have a portfolio to show his artwork yet, neither does he have any experience working on large-scale programming projects. Most programming projects that he had worked on are helping friends with freelance work and doing degree projects for those students who are willing to pay.

Is this a good point for him to take a turn into programming and probably start out as a Junior Programmer? How much does a Junior Programmers earn? As for Support Engineer job, his last pay was ~RM3k+ and the last offer was RM4k. Should he work for the money (support job where he have plenty of experience) or the interest (programming job where he has some experience but no exposure)?

We are both 26 years old. I am thinking of asking him take a professional certification for programming like MCSD or something but I am not sure if it will do him any good. I only know that MCSE and CCNA is useless if he does indeed go for a programmer's job. He has been out of job for nearly 2 months now. Kindly advise. Thank you.

This post has been edited by Casanova: Aug 4 2006, 03:53 AM

Frankly speaking with no prejudice whatsoever, the management may have made a good decision on that. Perhaps if you look from a cost effective point of view, buying and deploying the ready-made product would save a lot in terms of time as well as support. Since your friend is still new to programming, and no one can assure how effective the implementation of the in-house software can be, why waste the time?



At this point of time, if he desperately needs a job to support himself and family, go for the support job. He can definitely demand a higher pay, as his experience in this field would count.

If he can chill out a while and loosen his belt a little, try the programming job.

My personal opinion: Never get a job that will not bring you happiness. Do something that you really want.

Hey, thanks for being the first to reply.

I cant explain the disappointment he felt because I am not him but according to him, the shipping company initially wanted him to pioneer and lead this group of programmers, to make a custom software for this industry and be sold as their own product.

Imagine your boss giving you an opportunity of a lifetime. Make you the team leader or senior manager of IT department in a MNC company, your own team, to develop a software but be sold as their product. I am quite sure you will be happy too, right?

Now imagine it taken away from you, sure you will be disappointed by the empty promises. Of course if you judge it realistically, he dont have the experience to develop an entire suite of software but he was already assembling his team but in the end, it was scrapped and cancelled.

I can imagine how halfway we semangat trying to achieve the best for the company and the company plays you out with what I'd call, empty promises. I know that hurt him pretty bad, cause he was still tolerating all the other shit he was thrown with until this point, he quitted.

Yes, I can understand how he must have felt. But reality bites. Consider this:

His ex-company's main business is shipping. Already, this is a complex business, with high stakes and risks to juggle each day. In an ideal world, it would be superb to have a shipping company produce a software for the shipping industry, since they know the business best. However, something is missing: They aren't the expert players in the software engineering field.

Hiring skilled programmers, consultants, QA testers etc seems to contradict with the company's mission and objective. The management probably doesn't see much added-value in investing in such projects.

The ball is round, and anything can happen. I'm sure with proper guidance and skills, your friend could have produced the best shipping software solution. But as fate drew the line, it was not meant to be.

We face such situations each day. Face it, reality can kill ones spirit

Let the fisherman reap the food from the ocean;
Let the farmer harvest evergreen nourishments;
Let the blacksmith mould the iron tools.

Casanova,

Alarms went off on my brain for several items on your posts.

<<to get himself a Honda City.>>

What kind of person work hard and saves money to buy expensive car??

<<IMHO, he had always had talent in programming but never had the time to study or look into it in detail.>>

This is just a bunch of excuses. If someone is interested in something, they will make times. Especially, for programing, as long as you have a computer, you can write pretty any program that you want. What is there to stop you??

<<He learnt ASP.NET and C# diligently, did a trial run on a warehouse management system using ASP.NET and C#. I was the one who taught him, haha!!>>

What is there to stop him for finishing the program if he think he could actually sell the program??


Frankly speaking, IMHO, programing is one of those things that if you are really talented, you can learn on your own and do it on your spare time if you really love it. So far, you have not convince me that your friend are that kind of person. The more important thing is to know the application/business area. For example, if you do not know accounting, you cannot write accounting software.

So, my best advice is look for a support job with MCSE and CCNA. Do programing part-time even for free if he/she really love that.

Dreamer

I'm totally agree with that.. He should be bringing down the family burden & save money for his sis right. Why the hell he's having costly gadget stuff like that in the 1st place before he got the financial freedom?
My friend is from a very poor family too & the place they stay is those low cost & spaceless flat with 5 family members, he's earning 5k-8k per month by doing sales only and he's driving an old Proton Saga because he needs to support his family as well as his sis's education fees too. He's planning to buy a house which is more practical to them. Now u tell me what is the lesson your friend learn from here?

that's not really bullying is it? Because in my books, bullying would be something like accusing you of doing something you didn't do, or giving you some major reprimand for a minor infraction.

OK, first of all, I am a honest programmer, straight to the point.
Programmers are lazy ppl, as I can see from the post, he is a very hardworking one, programming isnt suitable for him. As for you, you are even more hardworking, writing so much telling us how good is such person, why dont u make it short ?
Btw junior programmers arent well paid, <RM2k, I dont think he can survive with <50% his previous salary. No one will offer him 2x normal salary because of the story. Its his decision to leave the company before he found a new job, if he is such ... responsible person(for his family), he would not quit that company like that.
And lastly, I agree with dreamer101, find a job in his talent and do part time freelance.

He needed a good car because he travel nationwide. Imagine he have to drive up and down in a Saga.

I think Pennywise posted a topic about him in "Cinapek Company." People who are too busy working, making sure there is money to feed the family will not have time to learn to do what they want - this case, programming.

If his job has to travel from country to country, what type of plane would suit him ? Proton is bad, but not that bad, if he feel his job need a better car, ask the company get 1 company car for him, if i feel i need another computer for my better performance in my job, do u think ill korek my wallet ?

And I do not agree on the ppl can busy until no time do what they want. Do he has time for TV ? sport ? tea with you ? relax ? or even sleep ? IF you wanna do something, and you will have time for it(even reduce your sleeping time), I will not say that I do not have time to play computer game. That is an excuse.

Ok, let me clarify the story a bit.

The new management that took over was his ex-boss's sons and they treated him badly. When I started a thread for him, everyone agreed for him to resigned and so he did. I think he should resign too because he was abuse at work, not only does he have to support the office, have to fix the boss's son gf computer. Even after he resigned, the boss son call him up to ask him IT related questions, etc. Even AFTER resigned, he still got screwed by the ex-boss children because they could not find where all the hardware was kept, etc.

He travels a lot from Penang, Kelana Jaya, Port Klang, Singapore, Johor Bahru. I agree with the car investment. Besides, he didnt steal the damn thing, he bought it and I respect that. Come on, how one wants to spend their money is their problem right? Rather than my other friends who spend RM10k to buy a road-bike.

Of course travel to places like Indonesia and Myanmar, he take planes, company sponsor la should be. Proton isnt that bad but why invest in a milo-can when you want to save and drive a car for long term?


narf03,
If you wanna get a computer for better performance in your job, you think all companies will provide for you meh? You wanting to play game is also just an excuse. I was a gamer but I gave it up due to no time too.

FYI, my friend really does not watch TV, neither does he do much sports, tea with us yes, relax and sleep is necessary for someone who worked so hard but playing computer game is just crap. You can do that because you dont have the responsibility to lead and do other things. You dont have a sick mother. Neither do you have to drive your dad (because he cant drive) and fetch your younger sisters to tuition, or do you?

No offense man, sometimes judging a person based on his actions can be a little far-fetched because we have never been in that position ourselves. For one, we are close friends and I see how he live his life so I understand. But I also clearly know that an interviewer will not take much of these shit but well, this is just what life is all about.


Casanova,
The old thread I started for him is gone...

I am sorry for his situation, I am not trying to make him hard feeling, but life is cruel, as ppl said, "salary paid to you, 50% is for what you do, and 50% is for you to be bullied?", it is not easy to get another job with the same or even higher salary compare to his last job, I hope before he made his decision to terminate his career, he did calculate how his life will be affected(no income, still need to pay car loan, house loan, pay this and pay that). It has been 2 months since he terminated his career, he unable to get a job, plz ask him, does he regret making that decision yet? Sometime we cannot ack like what we want, especially the result might totally affect your life, your family, not just yourself.

I sympaty for him, but life is cruel, maybe I am a bit luckier than him, but maybe not, I am a programmer without even a diploma, and have to pay more than 70% of my salary to maintain my car, house, and family, if one day my boss slap me, and ask me go eat shit, do u think im gonna to sue him b4 i get a new job ?

I have to agree with you on that. If one feels that he is able to spend a bit more on something of better luxury, that is entirely his decision, and we shouldn't question on that.

But I'd like to also make one point - Proton cars are not that bad. My 1988 Proton Saga 1.5I Aeroback has taken me all over the Peninsular and even across borders into Lion City and Hadyaai. Be it up-mountains or into deep jungles, it's still running well (was able to reach 170km/h to KLIA).

Of course not every company will give in easily to the demands of every employee. It's suicide. Most companies believe in providing "a good enough" tool for their employees. Some may find it sufficient, others may find it utterly slow and frustrating. Unless everyone complains, the management will not see it as a problem.

I chose to invest in a high end laptop, since I move around very often. Yes, my company provides a workstation, but the performance is just below par. I could tolerate it, reducing productivity. With my higher end laptop, I'm able to finish a lot of my own work in a timely manner, thus, freeing up more personal time.

We're talking from similar perspectives, where cina-pek style companies usually expect you to put in long hours, even on weekends. Well, screw it.

Well, that is nothing, seriously, at least he did not get blamed for something that was not his fault. If he did, then ask him to get used to it, especially as a software developer. Seriously, in a software project, the developers are almost always the bottom feeders, when the project catches fire, we are the ones that get the most heat. A developer's words doesnt count for much compared to the project manager or business analyst. If your friend is indeed planning a career as a developer, he should be prepared for this kinda situation as it is very common in boleh-land. I've been in so many projects where the corners are being cut from the top to be competitive, i.e. 12 months project cut to 3 months with no reduction in requirement or increase in resource. In the end when the project fails, it is always the developers fault.

I drove a Proton Wira. And, I was a sales manager.

Car is not an investment. You lost 30% of the car value as soon as you buy it. Do you understand something very simple?? Every person essentially has two resources to pursue what they want: time and money. If you really want something, you spend time and money to pursue it.

What is the difference between in money between a Honda City and a Proton Wira?? 40K, 30K or 20K. He can use those money to either not working for one year and learn all he can on programing. Or, he can buy his own computer, server and so on setup his own small freelance programing business.

In his case, let assume the difference between Honda City and Proton Wira is 20K. It is one year of his savings and he probably can live on 20K for one year. He had just wasted one year of his freedom or money.

Do people of this generation understand something simple?? If you work in IT line, you better earn and save all the money that you can before 40 years old. There are age discrimination in this industry. Money is not unlimited. It is harder and harder to find and keep a job as you cross 35 years old.

Dreamer

Hey Dreamer101, thanks for posting and helping my friend out here. No offense, bro, your post may be very informative but I think we should try to stick with the topic here.

Its not about what post you hold or what car you drive. It's about whether he should go for a programming job or a support job. Its not about how much you make and where you want to be at 40 years old either man.

No choice right? Car is never an asset but sometimes, people just have that need. I look at it at a different perspective, the car is the reward, a motivation, a drive. It's not like he bought a Camry or something. Just Honda City, save on petrol, etc.

darun,
I kinda agree with what you write. Be a support engineer all throughout his life, he works for the money and needs it. His family is slightly better off now since the sister also started working already.

Never imagined it was that difficult to be part of developing team. 12 months project cut to 3 months with no increase of workforce or budget, that's absurd man. All the best with your work, pal.

I would say his suggestion is the best.

vote++;

He does seem to have quite a lot of commitments now, so best to get a job which he is well knowledgable at. Bear in mind, with his experience, he can demand a high pay at support, while being fresh in programming, he probably can't expect much.

Pennywise,

1) How much is a Honda City??

2) Did he buy it on loan or pay cash?? Please do not tell me it is a 9 years car loan.

3) Has he buy a house yet??

Do you understand what I am trying to say here?? Your friend does not have the maturity and determination to do the right thing. In fact, he is rather impulsive. He is wlling to do the easy way out (earning certs, degree and so on). But, does he really love programing?? Even if he loves programing, does he has the commitment and determination to go for his dream??

A lot of people say they want to do this and that. But, where they spend their time and money tell you the real truth.

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Aug 5 2006, 07:42 AM