Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+

Advice Wanted [WTA] Proposal Ring & Wedding Bands, Please advice me!! Need Help!!

views
     
matrixation
post Jun 30 2017, 01:34 AM

On my way
****
Junior Member
540 posts

Joined: Sep 2008


hello folks - so i went ring hunting yesterday, went to a few shops (goldheart, My Diamond, Diamond & Gold, Wa Chan, Diamond & Platinum), and learnt a few things, but 1 thing I cannot understand is why Wa Chan's diamonds are 20-30% cheaper than the others at least, the only difference is wa chan don't carry specific brands (supplier), where their diamonds are just GIA certified. other shops have brands like hemera, lumiere, etc

was hoping if anybody can shed some light on this and help this poor soul out? what should I be looking out for, apart from the 4C & GIA certs.

regards

matrixation
post Jun 30 2017, 10:34 AM

On my way
****
Junior Member
540 posts

Joined: Sep 2008


QUOTE(kambingkoh @ Jun 30 2017, 10:11 AM)
The most important thing to look at are the proportions of the diamond:
http://myengagementringexperience.blogspot...lliant.html?m=1

Brands do come with a premium for the brand name. Wa Chan diamonds are "just" GIA" certified. Hence, no premium is imposed on any brand because there is none.

Certain brands are cut to different number of facets, like Hemera's 101 facets. These are called modified round brilliants, while traditional well-recognized round brilliants are cut to 57 facets (58 facets if include culet). Modified rounnd brilliants with more facets will make the diamond seems to have more scinitillation, but the sparkles that give out are smaller because total number of light return is the same, but now the light needs to be shared with more "windows"/facets, making each sparkle smaller, while when the same amount of light returns on a traditional round brilliant has lesser "windows"/facets, so the sparkle will be bolder. Whichever is better is up to each individual's preference. But one thing for sure there is a premium on the brand name and usually this cut are propietiary to the brand itself, hence I will still prefer the traditional round brilliant, which is proven with the test of time and easier to learn more about it on the internet.

Lumiere is a traditional 57 facets round brilliant. Their main selling point is Hearts & Arrows, which is also known as Super Ideal. This brand comes with a premium as well. Other Hearts & Arrows brands include Diamond & Platinum's Estrella, Love & Co's LoveMarque, and another famous brand carried by Habib known as Hearts on Fire. Beware that there is a possibility that not all diamonds within some of these brands may actually be Super Ideals. Some may be sub-par standard. Hence, it is important if the seller can show you the actual proof via image, but unfortunately, not many will do that. However, it seems that LoveMarque will show you the certificate with Hearts & Arrows image, so probably you can check them out.

For price comparison, I would highly recommend you to visit Whiteflash and Brian Gavin Diamonds from USA. Then you will see whether the above brands are overcharged. They carry another reputable certs known as AGS, which is comparable to GIA. If you need help with either brands, please let me know as I am affiliated to them. You can also refer to my blog for my experience with Whiteflash.

Now, don't underestimate GIA or AGS, they are an independent party that evaluates a diamond. In fact, it is better to have this than just a brand name.

That's all i have to share for now. Feel free to let me know if you other questions.
*
thank you for this post sir - where can i see the whiteflash & brian gavin diamonds in KL area? I intend to continue my hunt tomorrow (saturday), and would love to drop by if possible.
matrixation
post Jun 30 2017, 11:16 AM

On my way
****
Junior Member
540 posts

Joined: Sep 2008


QUOTE(bb100 @ Jun 30 2017, 10:42 AM)
Whiteflash, Brian Gavin and James Allen for that matter are online diamond retailers. No shop in KL.
*
oic, thanks mate
matrixation
post Jun 30 2017, 11:41 AM

On my way
****
Junior Member
540 posts

Joined: Sep 2008


QUOTE(bb100 @ Jun 30 2017, 11:29 AM)
You might wanna check out private jewellers in KL.
*
mind pointing me in that direction?
matrixation
post Jun 30 2017, 08:45 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
540 posts

Joined: Sep 2008


QUOTE(bb100 @ Jun 30 2017, 03:37 PM)
Eumayco.
Tailored Jewel.
Audrey's.

That's all I know. Sifu kambingkoh might know more.
*
great! thanks much
matrixation
post Jun 30 2017, 09:08 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
540 posts

Joined: Sep 2008


QUOTE(kambingkoh @ Jun 30 2017, 08:58 PM)
iDo Jewellery
Zcova
Caca Gems
Frou Frou

But I still prefer online because of the valuable information provided by the images. Of course you can engage them and ask them to provide GIA cert number for your reference, then you can let us know what is thr number and we can provide some feedback to you. Although this is just based on numbers/proportions of the diamond, but at least it can tell you whether the proportions are good enough. It is safer to buy diamonds with good proportions than diamonds with bad proportions.
*
been spamming the entire day on youtube videos and articles (lost count on the amount of jannpaul video's i've watched so far).

next I'd like to put my new found knowledge to use (planning to go tomorrow), so thought visiting physical stores would be good for me - might learn a few more things too.

Thanks for your offer, I'll be sure to take it up and post/update my progress here for feedback & comments. Cheers!
matrixation
post Jun 30 2017, 10:28 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
540 posts

Joined: Sep 2008


QUOTE(advocado @ Jun 30 2017, 10:21 PM)
i'm not sure if diamond shops offer a magnifying scope for customer to inspect but you can buy 1 cheap on ebay from China, and bring along a flashlight, just aim the light on the diamond and use the scope, you can see the reflections & clarify clearer.

certs are only for reference & maybe value proofing if you plan to sell, in the end still rely on your own judgement.

i'm sure if you check around 100 diamonds from different shops & different specs, you should be able to tell which ones are better, and also an idea on the of local shops.

you can buy from online like someone suggested it'd be cheaper & more options, but make sure you get it from really reputable shops & reputable courier service like DHL with full insurance who takes care of all the handling & tax for you. but you have to bear the duties & GST & handling fee. always a risk buying online.

remember diamond is not an investment like Gold, because synthetic diamonds are very common, thus the value rarely goes up unless it's some rare colored, very rare high carat or extremely well cut diamonds (usually by Brands).

you want size or you want clarity, your eyes can probably tell the size & cut difference, but can your eyes tell the clarity difference? do you have a habit of using a scope to admire the diamond?
*
that will be my worry if I decide to buy online - but will take what you said into consideration if I chose to get online.

agreed on not looking at a diamond as an investment - my only goal is to get the best bang (or bling) for buck for my girl
matrixation
post Jul 3 2017, 10:04 AM

On my way
****
Junior Member
540 posts

Joined: Sep 2008


QUOTE(kambingkoh @ Jul 2 2017, 04:33 PM)
so how was it?
*
So I went to Eumayco, Audrey's, De Beers, Tiff & Co, Tomei, Habib, and then back to Wa Chan - all to see their signature diamonds - so called better than common GIA triple excellent.

Would like to verify my understanding, is it safe to say the super ideal diamonds (Habib's hearts on fire, Tomei's Lumiere, and the likes) are just triple ex diamonds with extremely good proportions? like the crown & pavilion angles, and depts, and cut symmetry is very good to produce optimal fire, brilliance, and scintillation? Assuming what I understand above is correct, this would mean, I can also get similar grade diamonds elsewhere (like wa chan or online) cheaper; albeit unbranded?

FYI to other friends here:
1. de beers claim to go beyond 4C, and have 7C (cannot remember what the other 3Cs stand for, but basically mean fire, brilliance, and scintillation) I was also given a show on how their proprietary IRIS scanner is used to detect diamonds that fits de beers' 7C standard. They also only have internal certification for <0.99 carat diamonds; only 1 and above will have GIA certification

2. tiff & co do not have GIA certification, the sales consultant told me tiff & co certification process is stricter than GIA. didn't get a very good service in tiff & co, it felt more like regular jewelry shopping, than engagement ring/diamond understanding

3. Eumayco's Mr.Eu seem very knowledgeable and was very kind to share alot of information. I am interested in the fact that they do custom ring designs (they also hold classes for these). but their diamond selection seem limited. they are not keen to only do setting, and prefers to sell the diamond + setting as a whole. They will still design the setting for me (in the event I bought my diamond elsewhere), but at a different price point, with no after sales service such as polishing, resizing

4. I didn't spend alot of time in Audrey's, the sales consultant didn't tell me angything new that I didn't already know. Didn't see any real diamonds - he only open the audrey's site and went through some potential diamonds online with me; we also spoke a little on setting design and customisation is possible. They are open for me to bring my own diamond, and they will help with setting design, with full after sales service

5. Wa Chan will also help design settings with my own diamond.

Finally, I have 90% decided on what specs I want:
a) 0.7 carat
b) GIA triple excellent
c) D-F colur
d) SI1 and above clarity

and saw 2 diamonds within this specs, @kambingkoh sifu, what is your opinion on them?

user posted image user posted image

user posted image

matrixation
post Jul 3 2017, 11:08 AM

On my way
****
Junior Member
540 posts

Joined: Sep 2008


QUOTE(bb100 @ Jul 3 2017, 10:55 AM)
You can actually see the inclusions in diamond 623 cuz of its SI1 clarity. From your drillz, I can easily spot 2 big inclusions: one on the east arrowhead and one on the west arrow shaft near the centre of the diamond. There are a couple more small ones scattered around the table.

Of course, these are relatively easy to spot cuz of its high magnification. Did you try and look at the inclusions with your naked eye? If you can find them, then I would advise you to drop this diamond cuz it is not eye clean.
*
glad to hear that my understanding is sound!

yes I did look at both diamonds without magnification, and actually side by side, I can't tell the difference - but that will be likely due to my inexperience & the spotlights in the shop. I watched a JannPaul video, and diamonds without fully visible & symmetrical hearts and arrows will look very different (dull even) under natural light? So I'm worried to get diamond 623 rclxub.gif

any opinion/guidance on this?
matrixation
post Jul 3 2017, 01:50 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
540 posts

Joined: Sep 2008


QUOTE(kambingkoh @ Jul 3 2017, 11:19 AM)
Would like to verify my understanding, is it safe to say the super ideal diamonds (Habib's hearts on fire, Tomei's Lumiere, and the likes) are just triple ex diamonds with extremely good proportions? -> Yes. Also, if you view from the bottom of the diamond, you will see a clear picture of Hearts & Arrows. This indicates the diamond's precision. Remember, the numbers you view on the certificates are the average number resulted from the amount of angles taken into consideration. We have to remember that diamond cutting is a handcraft, the precision of each angles may differ slightly. Hence, the average will be the result showed on the certificate. To better understand things, refer to the website below/image attached below:

https://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/d...lytics-1535.htm
[attachmentid=8937239]

While AGS does not round up the average numbers, GIA does, meaning the average will always be rounded to the nearest "x" degree. So for example, for crown angle, GIA will round up to the nearest 0.5 degree, so for example, 34.3 degree crown angle will be averaged up to 34.5 degree. While for pavilion angle, GIA will round up to the nearest 0.2 degree, so for example , 40.7 degree pavilion angle will be averaged up to 40.8 degree. So, in terms of accuracy, I would say AGS wins. Anyway, GIA is still a world-renowned lab and you will should take both GIA/AGS graded diamonds into consideration. Refer below:

https://diamondcut.gia.edu/06_estimating_a_cut_grade.html
[attachmentid=8937247]

Using the proprietary cut score calculator by Enchanted Diamonds: https://enchanteddiamonds.com/cut-score-calculator
For the two diamonds you picked, 2186826647 has a cut score of 94.4, while 3215447623 has a cut score of 97.2. For 2186826647, the crown angle is at 36 degrees, which is considered over-steep. So that is probably where the diamond loses score. For 3215447623, it is cut to slightly deep at 62.6%. Safe rule is to make sure diamond max around 62%. So, that is probably where the diamond loses score.

However, based on the image you provide, which one looks more appealing? Personally, I think is diamond 2186826647. The image is clear. However, not all arrows are similar in size with each other. Also, the "backside" of most arrows are not that balanced. Also, look at the 12 o'clock position, the arrow head is tilted to the left.

For 3215447623, this is strange. The right hand side is obviously darker than the left. I am not sure why but it could indicate that the cut quality is not that good. Maybe a little too deep at that area. So in this case, I would prefer the look of 2186826647 more, despite the numbers on the cert 3215447623 is not as good.

Good thing is, I believe you have seen the diamonds personally, which one looks more appealing to you? Can you request the sales assistant to show you the diamonds under normal fluorescent light? It will be best to see them under normal light because you will know whether the diamond can perform out of the shop.

Lastly, price is another important factor to consider, so it will be best if we can have the price to see whether it is a good buy or not. For example, Hearts on Fire may be a safe buy, but the price is crazy. However, despite the proportions and cut of another diamond is not as good, but the deal is good, sometimes it is worth to consider, if you don't need a super ideal. It all boils down to individual preference.
*
wow - more things to read and study up - never heard of proprietary cut score calculator before.

actually, in the shop, both 623 & 647 look the same to me - but as i mentioned in my replies above - this is likely due to my inexperience & spotlight in the shop. I asked to view using the ASET scope and Idealscope but the sales consultant responded confused, haha - so I only used a hearts and arrow scope.

I am incline to buy my diamond online now - been browsing these couple of days and online is definitely cheaper, and more choices, but now I'm spoilt for choice.

on price, 623's price is 13.5K, whereas 647 is 19.0K

update: I tested water and she plans to wear the ring quite regularly, not just for functions and dinners - so a 0.7carat might be too big? I'm thinking 0.6carat now.

matrixation
post Jul 3 2017, 03:48 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
540 posts

Joined: Sep 2008


QUOTE(kambingkoh @ Jul 3 2017, 02:36 PM)
Proprietary - Means the standard belongs to the online store alone. But I found that their standard seems not bad. Will usually use Enchanted Cut Score Calculator as one of the first level filtering methods.

Great, if you got the chance, remember to view the diamond from the bottom of the diamond to see the Hearts. They can tell you more story regarding the cut quality.

No diamond is too big. tongue.gif Anyway, 0.7ct can wear daily, no problem. Just that you have to remember that your ring setting needs to hold the diamond firmly, so in this case, my advice is find some design that can let the diamond "sit" on it, and probably can consider 6 prongs (although 4 prongs will make the diamond more terrific). Personally, will go for a design that can let the diamond to sit and 4 prongs.

I assume the price includes a ring setting?
*
haha - I'm just worried she will be shy to wear out if it blings too much (if you get me). no the price is only diamond without setting - the shop quotes me an additional 1.5k for white gold setting.

I'm keener on 4 prongs, and with designs that allow the diamond to be admired from its side as well biggrin.gif still open on setting ideas. want to firm up the diamond purchase first.

do you reckon I can get cheaper online for that specs? whiteflash a good place to buy?

what should I look out for when viewing the hearts? rclxub.gif

QUOTE(bb100 @ Jul 3 2017, 02:37 PM)
The most effective way to evaluate a diamond is not inside the jewellery shop with all the powerful lighting shining at you. You should either look at it under fluorescence lighting or daylight. But I doubt the salesperson would allow you to bring his diamonds outside of his shop. So that's why you have to depend on light performance scopes.
*
the only light performance scopes these shops have are the hearts and arrow scope sad.gif the salesperson have not heard of ASET or Ideal scopes unfortunately.

This post has been edited by matrixation: Jul 3 2017, 03:49 PM
matrixation
post Jul 3 2017, 05:18 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
540 posts

Joined: Sep 2008


QUOTE(kambingkoh @ Jul 3 2017, 04:24 PM)
Take a look at the diamond below. It is an F VS2. Take a look at the Hearts & Arrows image. You probably want the diamonds you view to look something similar:
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/r...id=myengringexp (affiliate link).

Since we are at this diamond, I will just calculate the approximate cost for this diamond as well. Any diamonds above USD 2000 from Whiteflash will get a USD 25 discount for first purchase. So this diamond will cost around USD 3743. Wire transfer exchange rate via M2U for USD is 4.356. So this diamond will cost approximately RM 16304.51. Add on 6% GST, this diamond will cost approximately RM 17282.78. A quality ring setting will probably set you back another RM 1500 - RM 2300. So this diamond + ring will probably costs you RM 19582.78.

Whiteflash is definitely a good place to buy, given its quality and its price. But if you can up your budget, you can also consider Brian Gavin Diamonds, especially their "Black by Brian Gavin" (Black by Brian Gavin) which I think gives a better Hearts & Arrows consistency overall. Brian Gavin helped started Whiteflash before he started his own company. He is a cutter himself and is famous for his Hearts & Arrows diamond as well. The downside of Brian Gavin is the price may be slightly higher as you need to pay for shipment, while Whiteflash offers free delivery.

Of course, I am not saying Whiteflash is no good, in fact, recent diamonds (probably between March til June) seems to cut to better consistency, which is good.

As for Idealscope and ASET, it is not unusual if they are unable to provide. But given that Hearts & Arrows is the only scope you can get, then must well fully utilize it to determine the cut of the diamond better.
*
I will begin monitoring whiteflash for suitable diamonds. the 0.71 F VS2 you shown above is a little over my budget, I'd like to keep the diamond price <14K. and would sacrifice size for better cuts

1 more question if you don't mind - I've watched JannPaul videos on how to read Idealscope and ASET images, but all I get is look for red & black regions in idealscope, and white is not good as it signifies light leakages. and i don't get the difference between that and an ASET image rclxub.gif

matrixation
post Jul 3 2017, 08:01 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
540 posts

Joined: Sep 2008


QUOTE(bb100 @ Jul 3 2017, 06:37 PM)
For both ASET and Idealscope, the focus will be on the red parts of the image. The more red the merrier.

Personally, I prefer the ASET scope as it tells a more complete story about your diamond's light performance. It has 4 components: INTENSE light return, red; LESS INTENSE light return, green; contrast, blue; and light leakage, white. On the other hand, an Idealscope only has 3 components: light return, red; contrast, blue; and light leakage, white. Both INTENSE and LESS INTENSE light returns are coloured red, which is confusing. Too many green areas are not a good sign. It means that there are flaws in the cut.

-add-

Here is an example:
user posted image
*
I see, this cleared alot of air. thanks!
matrixation
post Jul 3 2017, 10:33 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
540 posts

Joined: Sep 2008


Any thoughts on these 3:

1a) https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/r...ond-3699005.htm

1b) https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD08404266

2) https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/r...ond-3784281.htm

3) https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/r...ond-3855510.htm

1a & 1b seem to be very similar diamonds, but price is so much different (different website though) am I missing anything here?

This post has been edited by matrixation: Jul 3 2017, 10:43 PM
matrixation
post Jul 4 2017, 10:48 AM

On my way
****
Junior Member
540 posts

Joined: Sep 2008


QUOTE(cuttlefish @ Jul 3 2017, 11:15 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

Contacted both Eumayco and Audrey's about bringing own diamond for setting, both mentioned the same thing, resize & polish will be charged
*
oh - different from the guy told me rclxub.gif
matrixation
post Jul 4 2017, 11:44 AM

On my way
****
Junior Member
540 posts

Joined: Sep 2008


QUOTE(kambingkoh @ Jul 3 2017, 11:38 PM)
So there you have it, my 2 cents. You amazed me because you really dig and dig into Whiteflash's site. Have to thank you for showing me gems hidden within Premium Select.  notworthy.gif
*
haha, I'm just trying to do as much homework as i can, and not regret on my purchase tongue.gif

matrixation
post Jul 4 2017, 12:00 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
540 posts

Joined: Sep 2008


QUOTE(bb100 @ Jul 3 2017, 10:56 PM)
I was just about to say no to Blue Nile but they upgraded their online store with a 360-degree video. Macam not bad.

Proportion wise, need sifu kambingkoh to do the analysis for you. Those with ASET scope I think very straightforward. The more red the merrier.

You got consider James Allen ahh bro? Their True Hearts series quite ok also. Can take a look.
*
I'm checking out james allen now - seems like their true hearts series are cheaper than WF ACAs. I'm so conflicted now lol...
matrixation
post Jul 4 2017, 01:26 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
540 posts

Joined: Sep 2008


QUOTE(bb100 @ Jul 4 2017, 12:17 PM)
Ohh I didn't know that! Only Idealscope images are available on display. If you need an ASET scope image, you can chat them up and request for one.
*
oh, ok will do that..

QUOTE(kambingkoh @ Jul 4 2017, 12:47 PM)
Haha yup. Their True Hearts are cheaper. Did not introduce you because they only ships up to Singapore.
*
I read some reviews, 1 guy said their true hearts are Near True Hearts and Arrows, whereas ACA's are true Hearts and arrows; simply because JA is more lenient than WF. but then to the naked eye, and a non-expert, JA true hearts are beautiful enough?

I must admit before I started this journey I didn't know diamond is a technical business! haha

oh, I have relatives living in Singapore so shipping there wouldn't be a hassle.
matrixation
post Jul 4 2017, 02:17 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
540 posts

Joined: Sep 2008


QUOTE(kambingkoh @ Jul 4 2017, 01:43 PM)
JA may be more lenient, but there are still some valid Hearts & Arrows diamonds within the category, you will know it when you see it. It is pretty obvious. For ACA, there can be diamonds that can be labeled as near Hearts & Arrows as well. I have seen one before. But to be fair, I have only seen one from JA that is near H&A.

However, I have randomly browse through True Hearts and noticed that the H&A of JA is pretty consistent. Perhaps they have up their game, which is good.

Diamond is always a technical business. One of the main value is carat weight. That's why a lot of cutter will try to maximize the carat. However, some cutters did so by cutting the diamond to a not so good proportion. That is probably why steep crown angle/pavilion angle exists.

If you have relatives there to receive the package for you, then that will be no issue at all. Your options have widen and JA can be a good place to start looking. For any purchase in SG, you have to factor in the 7% VAT.

Looking forward to your final outcome, keep us posted.  thumbsup.gif
*
Good to know, will browse JA today. definitely keep you all posted, thanks for the help thus far - it's been very enlightening.
matrixation
post Jul 4 2017, 03:05 PM

On my way
****
Junior Member
540 posts

Joined: Sep 2008


QUOTE(kambingkoh @ Jul 4 2017, 02:25 PM)
Good luck bro, may the force be with you.  cheers.gif
*
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/r...cut-sku-2536085

this looks nice.......

update: my gf hinted she wants a bigger rock - so my original thought of reducing to 0.6carat is a no go, back to 0.7, haha

This post has been edited by matrixation: Jul 4 2017, 03:06 PM

2 Pages  1 2 >Top
 

Change to:
| Lo-Fi Version
0.0268sec    0.99    7 queries    GZIP Disabled
Time is now: 10th December 2025 - 08:47 AM