regardless, does it matter... i seriously believe a good person from any religion can go to heaven. its not exclusively christian. Matthew 35:40
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Jul 17 2014, 11:09 PM
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regardless, does it matter... i seriously believe a good person from any religion can go to heaven. its not exclusively christian. Matthew 35:40
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Jul 17 2014, 11:51 PM
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#2
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Jul 18 2014, 11:12 AM
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#3
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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jul 18 2014, 05:04 AM) Erm, Jesus is not talking about heaven there. He's talking about hypocrisy the 'holy' folk. Basically all the orang ternama and so-called 'good' Israelites abandoned the man. Instead, an 'unclean' Samaritan saved him. U didn't prove me wrong. It just your interpretation different than mine. And if i am not wrong then i must be correct. |
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Jul 18 2014, 11:26 AM
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QUOTE(pehkay @ Jul 18 2014, 08:52 AM) Well, you might be right that is in not exclusively Christian. Which brings to an interesting question. When is a christian born again?Because it is UTTERLY A FOREIGN concept in the Bible On your quoted verses, try reading Matthew 25:31-34 also for the context ------------ Also try reading John 3:1-13 on the story of Nicodemus. Nicodemus, a highly educated teacher (it's like having a Phd and a mayor (leader)) and an experienced, older man, came to the Lord Jesus and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God” (3:2). The human concept is that we need a teacher and more teaching (to be better). The Lord Jesus is so wise. He did not argue with Nicodemus or rebuke him, nor did He speak too much with him. After listening to him, the Lord Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a man is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (3:3). This word really puzzled Nicodemus. He may have thought, “I came to be taught by You, to seek teaching. I recognize You as a rabbi, a teacher, yet I do not understand what You mean by being born anew. An old man such as I cannot go back to my mother’s womb and come out again. While chapter three is about a highly cultured, very religious, God-seeking, God-fearing, moral person, chapter four is about an immoral woman. Regardless whether you are a good or evil, you need to be born again, regenerated to have the life of God. Excerp from an article in the internet, In this account, Nicodemus questioned Jesus, who answered, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3). Confused, Nicodemus replied, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? Jesus answered...Except a man be born of water [the first physical, human birth, but can also refer to baptism] and of the Spirit [later, at the Resurrection], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:4-5). To see and enter God’s kingdom, you must become spirit. This will be clear. But people are physical. Entering the kingdom is impossible for them, because scripture states, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God” (I Cor. 15:50)! |
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Jul 18 2014, 01:51 PM
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Pehkay, i hope u truly understand my answers. Your explanation of reborn occur when a person is still alive.
While mine is this: 1. Valar morghulis (all men must die) 2. Reborn as spirit 3. Enter heaven. Excerpt fr internet.. notice a startling scripture recorded by the apostle Paul. Recognize that the Bible always interprets itself—another great rule of Bible study—and to always accept what it says after it does. Now notice: “[Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature...and He is the head of the Body, the Church: who is the beginning, the FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD; that in all things He might have the preeminence” (Col. 1:15, 18). Jesus showed how to get into heaven. That is: practice love, die honorably, and be resurrected in spirit form before u can go to heaven. Regardless of religions. |
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Jul 18 2014, 07:52 PM
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QUOTE(pehkay @ Jul 18 2014, 02:29 PM) Ah, you push the event to His coming back. that is quite abstract you thrown there. i don't see where it says I am wrong.I do recognize that the Bible interprets itself. The verses you quoted along with Romans 8:29-30 will show that we can experience this reality NOW. It will be consistent with the verses in Colossians. 29 Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers; 30 And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified. Right now, we are many brothers of the Firstborn from the dead. Spiritually, we are those who died and resurrected with Christ (Romans 6:8, 1 Pet. 1:3b; Eph. 2:5a etc.) by being one with Him. We are the "twins" of Christ. Too marvelous! It is now! "29 Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers;" are we those He foreknew, and He predestinated to die like Christ? those who were will be reborn as the second, third, forth reborn and so on... Paul died persecuted. He must be one of them. ( is my interpretation wrong ? prove it.) to live a new life in Christ, first you must die. find in Bible which say i am wrong. |
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Jul 18 2014, 08:00 PM
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#7
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@Unknown warrior
i'll reply later. yours too big and to disrespectful to answer in short. |
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Jul 19 2014, 12:12 AM
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#8
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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 18 2014, 04:49 PM) May I? thw only part i disagree is your first paragraph.Though it sounds nice but unfortunately that is not the truth. If any good person from any religion can go to heaven, it would be pointless for Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins and the Apostles of Christ would be the greatest fools on Earth because Jesus did say He is the only way to Heaven and the Apostles gave their own life for the sake of the gospel, something they truly believe in and experienced. There is no self agenda neither It is something taken lightly because if it is, it defeats the purpose giving up their lives. They are aware of this and recorded their statement in the book of Corinthians. There's a reason why Jesus spoke in Parables and there is a reason why Jesus uses the OT Law, presupposing good works for Salvation vs Grace when it comes to certain type of people. i believe Christ sacrifice is for everyone. The sacrifice He made to allow Him to forgive our sin transcends even the boundaries of religions. His sacrifice means He can provide His grace to literaly anyone He likes. We do not decide by our deeds that we can automatically receives His grace. It is His decision. And when He decided Malala Yousofzai would not die by the bullet shot by a Taliban to her head then it must be because He loves her, regardless of her religion. But we still need to do the good deeds, or otherwise we are 100% suree to fail in his selection. |
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Jul 19 2014, 12:17 AM
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QUOTE(de1929 @ Jul 18 2014, 08:00 PM) there are "die" that entitled sijil kematian malaysia i believe we should not create layers upon layers of hidden meanings that can create even more confusion. We take the meaning as 10 yrs old would have taken to believe when first time reading the Bible.and there are "die" that does not entitled sijil kematian malaysia. what pehkay means is the second one. |
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Jul 19 2014, 12:42 AM
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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 19 2014, 12:23 AM) The rest of the lengthy passages has very much to do with the first paragraph, they are related. you sure ? there are those who boast, yes. but there are other people who will never feel their good deeds are good enough for salvation, due to the sins they carry and keep doing.Yes anyone can come to Jesus and confess that He is the only Way to God and to Eternal Life, even if He is from another religion, that is correct. God's offer of Salvation is for all but you are in error with regards to good deeds. Ephesians 2:8-9 I(NIV) …8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. what about those who perform good deeds out of their desire not because they want any reward whatsoever ? they do it because of their enormous empathy towards other peope like the "uncle". what i really mean is the good works must come from a person own inner desire and not of wanting any reward. |
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Jul 19 2014, 12:04 PM
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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 19 2014, 12:55 AM) It's not so much about expecting some kind of payment or rewards the economy of God salvation.. some fancy words you got there but in the economy of God's Salvation is has to do with establishing own Righteousness to be justified before God. That is where the boasting part comes in. It doesn't make much sense when you say one must do good deed in order to be 100% sure for selection and at the same time say good works is done because of inner desire not wanting any rewards. It kinda of contradict in meaning. i wish i can have the same ability to speak my thought as fuently as yours. no i did not contradict myself. there are those who volunteer to help in the recent typhoon hayan in the philipines and they do not boasts about it and these acts are what God will keep His tabs on. they come from all religions including the atheists. What drives these people to do such acts that do not benefit them in any way ? must be siomething from within them. |
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Jul 19 2014, 12:06 PM
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QUOTE(De_Luffy @ Jul 19 2014, 03:31 AM) John 3:16 say For God so loved the world that He sent his only Son and whose ever believe in Jesus Christ will have eternal life(heaven) you point that salvation must come by believing in Christ while we still alive.the facts does not change that only through Christ you are saved that you must believe that He died on the Cross and rose again on the third day which raises the question. is there salvation after death ? excerpts from the Internet.. What about the good people who have lived out their lives without ever hearing the name of Christ or anything that He taught and therefore had no chance at salvation? Are people condemned because of geography or the timing of their birth? Billions of people, by no choice of their own, have been born, lived and died in regions or during eras in which the Word of God was never available to them. How could a just and loving God condemn people born into such a situation? Would it be fair for God to destroy them forever when they never really had an opportunity to understand His truth? Indeed it would not be just or fair. That's why the Bible reveals that God's plan encompasses the billions of men, women and children who have lived and died under just those circumstances. The answer is the second resurrection in physical form (i am still sceptical but for now i accept this as His answer.) Ezekiel:37:1-14 describes the second resurrection in colorful detail. This chapter shows how God will work with people of all nations, for Israel has no spiritual advantage over other people (Galatians:3:26-29). |
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Jul 20 2014, 08:28 AM
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QUOTE(de1929 @ Jul 19 2014, 12:29 PM) I agree, we should not create layers upon layers of hidden meaning. i'll be frank. Holy Spirit is a subject i wish not to touch, due to my lack of knowledge. what i know is the reality im facing and Jesus Christ, that is enough. Im imperfect and i sin everyday and i may end up in hell. i don't care.Unfortunately, i am not the author of the bible. I believe Holy Spirit is the author of the bible. Therefore when you say: "We take the meaning as 10 yrs old would have taken to believe when first time reading the Bible" ... without you realize, you try to demonstrates you are smarter then Holy Spirit. But i am sure you are trying to be "as safe as" possible and "as righteous as" possible.... a good intention and pure heart is good, but cannot out weight God's love to you. Perhaps you don't realize but now i hope your eyes is open. Let 10 yrs old think as 10 yrs old.... Let Sonido think as what Christ wants... My advise, ask the holy spirit. He will gently guide you. He will gives you rhema. For detail about Logos and Rhema, i think this side should be good to start: http://ati.iblp.org/ati/family/articles/concepts/rhema/ |
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Jul 20 2014, 08:31 AM
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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 19 2014, 12:57 PM) Perhaps you misunderstand my point. i should clarify this to you. what i mean is no orndinary type of work. this is a type of work that even more important than faith that we need to perform before Christ can offer us the gift of everlasting life. I agree with you, there are many people who does good deeds without expecting anything in return, it's out of the sincerity of their Hearts but these acts do not qualify them to Heaven. Many people will probably ask why not? The answer is this. The Kingdom of God is about God's Glory and his goodness, it has nothing to do with us. He qualify us to enter NOT because we are good but because God is good, this Glory and Recognition belongs to Him and Him alone. He qualify us to enter NOT because we do good deed but because God's good work at the cross. (Jesus sacrificed himself at the cross). It ALL about God, nothing to do with us. NOT EVEN our obedience to God qualify us. 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 1 Corinthians 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. BUT THE GREATEST OF THESE IS LOVE. Love cannot be manifested without work. in other words, good deeds are the manifestations of love. the first and most important commandment is to Love God with all your heart. but since God has everything, He doesn't mean He need us to perform a ritual rote prayer that utters the 'i love u God' a thousand times a day... He had shown us how to love him through our work in Matthew 25:36-40... I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. AGAINST SUCH THINGS THERE IS NO LAW. religion equates to law. this is why i said religion becomes irrelevant. This post has been edited by sonido: Jul 20 2014, 08:35 AM |
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Jul 20 2014, 08:37 AM
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QUOTE(loud @ Jul 19 2014, 01:13 PM) Since you mention atheist, please allow me to kepo a bit. The keyword i was looking for you said is compassion. It is a component of Love. Thanks for the explanation.Selflessly helping others and witnessing how someone relieves from pain by our own action will generates good sensation which contributes to a peaceful mind. Even feeding a hungry stray kitten will do. I guess it is the nature of one's conscience and compassion. To simplify it, i don't believe in God but i understand the benefit of good deeds and doing something without recognizing its benefits or harm is called delusion. |
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Jul 20 2014, 08:40 AM
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QUOTE(De_Luffy @ Jul 19 2014, 04:27 PM) there is salvation after death, by believing in Christ, you are accepted in heaven when you die, Jesus told nicademus before Flesh gives birth to flesh, spirit gives birth to spirit so in order to be reborn is believing in Jesus Christ and the Trinity which is consist of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, your soul are saved the moment you accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior and that He died on the Cross for us, otherwise you are bound in Hell where the gnashing teeth come from. salvation = your sin is forgiven by Christ. you can still lose this gift of salvation if you do not practice it. only when we are sinless that we can enter heaven. this is why we need Christ in our everyday life to ensure we do not stray from the right path. we strive with our own strength, but we need Christ to lend us the help we need in every situation we face. (correct me if im wrong)Before Jesus was taken up to Heaven He commanded this to His Twelve Disciple, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit , 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.’ (Matthew 28:18 - 20) |
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Jul 20 2014, 09:04 AM
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#17
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Jul 20 2014, 02:11 PM
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QUOTE(de1929 @ Jul 20 2014, 09:16 AM) Ok i see your point because i exactly like yours before, before moving to other church. i have visited the chc link and i think it must be very.. ermm engaging. too exciting i think. i am still catholic and conservative and i like to stay at the faaaar back corner of anonymity cuz it suits me. i only go for mass to sing for God but not listen to the yada yadaing sermon of the priest, too monotonous, repititve and quite boring. the songs are gooding though and thats why i attend.I also has a lot of confusion in the past because people interpret bible "suka-suka-dia"... meaning whatever the preacher / gurus claim he got from God / Jesus Christ, they just preach 1 way, and did not want to hear my response nor answering my questions. Forget about challenge him, because he the ones holding the mics. Sometimes i got change to discuss usually if the preacher is not busy. either by lunch / dinner or just simply casual talks... at the end either i have something new, or i feel closer to hell. The problem is, their version of truth did not help my problem, or at least their truth also did not make me a better person. What i feel, i feel sooooooooooo close to hell instead of soooooooooo close to Jesus. Then i decided to venture from Churh A, to B, to C to D to really find the church that really meet my need 1. Church must understand that i am a normal human being. take me as is, or leave me alone 2. Church must understand that i sin everyday, due to nature as business man sometimes i have to convince client and give clients comforts, instead of plain truth. 3. Church must be worshiping Jesus Christ, same as i worship Jesus Christ. 4. Church must be open and have attitude to give warmth welcome to newcomers, instead of just simply Praise God and forget new comers. So today i went to a church that really 50% to 70% meet my expectations. At least the community did not condemn me, and understand me as is... as is meaning take me as what i am. And also, they take care my emotional needs, as a human being, i need pair of ears that i can trust. The definition of trust is: 1. did not call me sinner because i share you A,B,C,D... 2. can keep secret as i just need ur pair of ears. sound selfish ? you need to trust me this. They are people that want to invest their lives in you. Listening to you, and build you... because they are just people like to do that... there are also church like that... 1st They put Jesus as no 1, and then No 2. they invest their lives in you. The doctrine is just as simple as that. So if you are selfish, these kind of church still will pamper you, because they are looking for selfish people. at least that's their doctrine. You can try church: http://www.chc.org.my/ When you attend chc church above, they always announce to all congregation: who is the first comer or second time comer. We would love to know you more and let's have a relationships. This is good. they are deliberately telling you that if you are a first timer or second timer, you are welcomed. All you need to to is raise your hand and minister / ushers / leaders nearby will give you pen and card that you can fill with your name and phone number. This church as 500 people at 10AM service in the morning, so it's quite packed, but usually only 1% to 5% are new comers. sometimes leaders they approach you, sometimes if not, usually they will call you next days... but perhaps they forgot who knows... people are inperfect anyway The people are nice, but again... people also have weaknesses... so don't get tempted to just say yes...yes... and open up 100%. Balance it.... trust Jesus, don't be naive... Test first.... When they call you, they ask for a meeting / chit-chat ... well consider as business opportunities. who knows it's benefit, why not give a try.... give them test case. (aka you lie / make up story lahhh.... ) e.g. telling them i run a business but now business is difficult ya... where is my Jesus ? telling them i am smart at school, but i need to work so don't have time to study, so i cheat with assignments and exams... what should i do ya ? life difficult lah... no work no money to pay tuition. no degree no career lahhh... Then slowly you will have a better understanding of live. now is 9:15 sunday. chc start at 10AM. hope u stay nearby. God Bless |
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Jul 20 2014, 02:17 PM
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#19
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QUOTE(De_Luffy @ Jul 20 2014, 12:07 PM) All gifts from God are eternal, as you pointed out the greatest of these is love, why is that so because Jesus love His people so much that He is willing to die on the cross for our sins. That is the greatest love of all and God ask you to do the same for Him by laying down your life for Him no matter what is the consequences. not all people can spend their live spreading the good news. some may get the calling, some not but each has their function in the society.God wants you to lay down your life to spread the Good News of Him, even that means death. |
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Jul 21 2014, 10:35 AM
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#20
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i wish we could do somwthing for you sweeties..
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