... But a master of none ! A little bit of everything means a dummy who can never be an expert.

When I was just a kid, I started enjoying Vinyls since the early Seventies when my dad used a DIY Tube Amp, a Lenco L75 turntable and Rogers bookshelf. Then I went up to cassettes... then up again to CDs when the covers were printed with DDD, ADD or AAD... when CDPlayers specs stated "oversampling"... to DVDs and DVD Audio... and the rest goes on till my present history.

I also enjoy Documentary blurays especially the fantastic scenery and camera angles. Loved the BBS Earth and BBC Life blurays... I will never get bored watching it numerous times!

After sooo many years, I am still very backward and ignorant in terms of my knowledge of my hobby when compared to many people here.... for example, audio calibration, Dirac, REW, room acoustics, speaker behavior, etc. Many times I thought what I believed to be true was actually wrong! So I can say that I am still continuing to learn.



This post has been edited by jamesleetech: Aug 13 2016, 08:09 PM

Baraka and Samsara... a video story without narration about life and nature on earth. Great docu but not my best loved one. Samara is second part.



I also loved TV Series too...

I don't know how to answer your question because any answer from me may cause further replies of disagreement to my poor knowledge of speaker, interconnect or whatever cables. So I do feel that it makes more sense for me to just post a few articles and videos that I have read and watched before. I hope I do not cause further confusion to you as well as be able to help you make a much better choice.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cab...ker-cable-gauge
http://machinedesign.com/blog/5-myths-about-speaker-wire
http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/tech_ti...re_gauge_right/
http://www.cablecurls.com/cable-curls/cabl...-speaker-cable/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG-3KyURXqk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7DdcZCbABo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR4crLxpd4U

I think that speaker cables selection can cause "heated discussions" between different camps, similar to the question of HDMI cables and other cables.

My own uneducated opinion is... get a cable which you think is supposed to be reasonable AWG thickness for the length used (refer to the links I posted above) AND do make sure that the speaker cables have proper shielding because electro-magnetic interference (EMI) can cause some problems... and of course, I know that you will not put your speaker cables near to any electrical wires or anything that can cause EMI issues. Don't worry too much about not equal length of speaker cables... just use equal lengths for left and right speakers since its DIY so the costs of saving a few Ringgit for just a short length will not matter. Branded (factory terminated) expensive ones ALWAYS come with equal lengths so that is never an issue. I sensed bullets being fired at me now or am I just hallucinating?

Below is an interesting YouTube Video about cable curls ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6duVvwdd5F0

Phew! Tough, tough.

This post has been edited by jamesleetech: Aug 15 2016, 06:00 PM

I return in kind... my appreciation and thanks to your link to "A History : Speaker Wire by Roger Russell".

I love getting confused with a ton of information... because for me, I usually can wiggle my way out of that confusion into another lesser confused territory... and each time getting lesser and lesser confused... to a point that I deemed as the lowest acceptable state of confusion and then finally let my ears do the talking. Before I let my ears control me, I will have to dig dig dig until I am fully confused. I will not neglect the factual laws of "science"... so after I have done all that... then only I let my ears decide.

Confucius said... "In order to confuse yourself convincingly, you must make sure that you confuse others first". Mmm... Confucius did NOT say that. Excuse my condition.

Remember to read carefully between the lines... because there is a clear meaning behind my confusion. If anyone says that I am wrong, then I can quickly blame it on my confused mind due to... sshhh, don't want my doctor to know!

This post has been edited by jamesleetech: Aug 15 2016, 11:19 PM

Its great to know that sherr127 used RM 3K cables for his RM 80K system which is I will do too if I were him. My comments below is NOT directed at sherr127.

The thing here is this... when a person have a RM 150K system with a power amp costing around RM 50K... there will be people who will say that the person is wasting money on a pair of speaker cables costing around RM 6K when he can get the same performance with a speaker cable costing a mere RM 1K !! And worse if anyone were to even suggest a pair costing around RM300 with a DIY one for that person's RM 50K power amp. We do have great people here who did not criticize... I will NEVER criticize anyone from those who uses an unbranded one named "Chicken Kokok" costing cheap cheap RM 30.00 to those who uses a super branded one named "My God Hears" costing more than RM 10K! My point here is... nobody will be stupid enough to use a RM 2K speaker cable when the entire system only costs around RM 3K. However... do not be too fast to point the gun and shoot when someone said that he/she uses a RM5K cable... that is because there is a story behind why he/she bought that outrageously priced cable and that reason is because he/she has a RM350K system with a power amp costing RM80K. When a person can outrageously buy a system costing hundreds of thousands of ringgit, its because he is rich enough to do that which many of us can only dream so its reasonable to believe that he/she will not use a DIY cable that costs peanuts, around RM 500 for his/her system.

Do research as Google is your best friend and if you get more confused, go to a psychiatrist for help... just don't come to me because I can only make you more confused.

Whenever its possible to do it... test and audition whatever you buy. At the same time, seek for views from many people, not just a few. Pause for a while and do not swiftly jump into the purchase. Know as much as you can tolerate before you buy. But be sensible in your choice... do not immediately say no to a "chicken" brand just because its a cheapo one and similarly do no say no to a branded one just because it costs more. Just look at how much your entire system costs... I think a person will definitely not buy a branded cable costing around RM 1K when your entire system costs around RM5K.

Branded ones don't mean expensive AND unbranded cheapo ones don't mean its bad. People who says this already voiced out what I felt for so many years. The real world here for many of us is that we want to get the most out of our enjoyment eventhough we are working on a tight budget and just cannot afford it. This is where we are forced to be prudent in our choice.

Now... let's say we do already have a pair of those RCA interconnect cables which are usually included in your amp/player or whatever purchase. This is where many of us who wants better audio already knows... such Red and White RCA interconnect just don't give us the performance that we DEMAND! The next thing in our mind is whether to buy a well-known brand or just an "ayam brand" as a few of you here so eloquently described. Do not just broadly make a choice between these two "brands". Here is what I personally think a person should do before deciding. Read on...

For interconnects...
1) How long do I require for my use? 1m or 2m or even more? If I feel 1m is enough, I can save some money on the more expensive branded ones OR do I want some allowance by using 2m? For unbranded ones that cost peanuts between 1m and 2m, I would prefer the longer 2m to make it easier for me to shift my AV/hifi gear locations.

2) Branded and Unbranded ones can also be these 2 types... Factory Terminated ones which are immediately ready to use... AND... DIY ones that needs a choice of different cables to be soldered to RCA heads.

3) Generally, people refer to interconnects as those RCA types for analogue connections but I think differently, hehe. Before I choose what kind of interconnects to use... choose whether I want to use RCA, XLR, AES, Optical and Coaxial when such options are available. Relatively speaking, XLR/AES may or may not cost more than RCA subject to various different qualities. XLR (Balanced) and RCA (Unbalanced) are both for analog connections so my preferred choice is XLR BUT there will be others who disagree. Optical, Co-Axial and AES are all for digital connections (each is single cable) so this is a hard choice for me which I don't have opinion on which is the best.

4) For DIY cables, decide on the quality of cable and quality of terminating plugs to use. You can choose between copper plugs or the gold-plated copper plugs. I prefer gold-plated ones BUT people will say no difference except maybe a little oxidation after many years use. Well... I will not argue with this. As long as the gold-plated copper plugs cost me around RM 15 to RM 20 per piece compared to copper around RM 5 to RM 8, I don't mind paying that little extra even though it actually may not be gold-plated, hehehe. My DIY Canare Interconnect cost me around RM 180 for 3 metres was bought in 2012 from someone who DIY. Now I forgot who that online person is. Choose a cable of reasonably thickness. If it costs a little bit more for branded ones, then choose this. Remember the cable shielding material is also important to reduce EMI interference so probably a branded one has better shielding quality in the material used. Choose a DIY cable guy whom you believe is reliable, has good workmanship, uses good quality solder for joining and charges a fair price. Recently I usually go to a dealer in Amcorp Mall whenever I need such DIY cables because a branded cable cost much less when plugs are DIY compared to the same branded Factory Terminated one.

5) I do have a friend who just DIY with extra coaxial cables from his Astro satellite dish. He asked a guy to just solder two cheapo RCA plugs to that coaxial cable and he said the audio quality is so much better now when connected from his CD player 2 RCA outs. Remember that scientific facts are facts... a coaxial cable is 75 ohms which is not suitable for RCA connections. Of course I will not DIY with such "cables" for my RCA connection BUT who am I to say wrong when its his ears that decides. I did say it to him once but he won't listen so I won't waste my time on him anymore as long as he "enjoys" his hobby. The thing I need to know is the basic requirements to follow for my cables which I don't just simply pick from my store room and say that any cable can be used. No cable can beat a free cable so I will only say... great and wonderful that a person got the audio quality improvement that the person wanted by using TNB electrical cable as speaker cables... but will I use it for my own system? I will not answer that question.

6) If you wanted better more expensive cables, a good option will be to buy used/second hand as long as you are very careful in your selection from so many used items for sale. Inspect the physical condition before you buy and make comparisons between used brands of similar price.

Will I follow the long proven scientific truths about cables? I can be ignorant but... Yes I will. Will I NOT buy an expensive RM1K cable? I don't need to answer this. I do agree that we should not blindly jump into any purchase. Any decision to purchase should be based on... (1) do not blindly ignore the scientific facts, (2) the all important stretching the most out of the limited funds, (3) the best value for money between branded and unbranded ones, (4) take the time to shop around, (5) listen to different views and digest the information and (6) finalize the list to just a few and, if its possible, audition with own ears. Well, its just a general idea, not a complete one.

After all the scientific truths that have undeniably proven whatever, after all the research and going through so many various choices.... there is still the final factor that we should NOT forget... the biggest grand-daddy of all... our own EARS and it says a lot.. yes, I heard it or did my ears actually hear it? You decide.

Chicken then duck and next will be turkey. A great discussion here. I hope more discussions do not make it even more difficult for a person to decide! Hehehehe.

I better bring out my umbrella... I am waiting for someone to throw water at me for my views.

Ouch, ouch !! Aiyo... me no grandmaster lah! Only an apprentice when compared to a lot of folks here who are really heavyweights in HiFi and HT.

I am finding a sand area to bury my head... feel sooo shy shy shy.

This post has been edited by jamesleetech: Aug 18 2016, 03:43 PM

Great advice. Its certainly what I did advise to my friends. Always be prepared for spares even though a conduit is used.

I feel shy to show you my room of 10 ft 9 in X 16 ft which is very small when a big bed, 1 BIG cabinet, 1 clothes/utility cabinet, a big desktop computer with 27 inch monitor, a 7 ft wide AV cabinet is cramped into this small space.

My entire system is certainly no where near to the person whom you said is now busy with his new house construction which will house a SUPER DUPER HT room for a 7.7.4 system!!!

Probably my system cannot even match your system quality which have been calibrated, fine-tuned properly and a proper acoustically managed room!

You have seen many people, listened to numerous systems, travelled to a few countries for numerous HT/HiFi sessions while I am not able to do it due to my condition. I am sure even your wealth of knowledge far exceeds mine too.

My hometown is in Pahang but am presently staying at my sister's place in KL for convenience to IJN (National Heart Institute).

I would love to meet you as I believe I will learn more from you as opposed to from me to you. I am a bit reluctant due to my haphazard system cramped into my small room in KL. Pm me your phone contact and I will call you. If you do come to my place, do be prepared to be disappointed with my audio quality AND you need to come up yourself because of my walking handicap.

All bosses do not care whether the salesmen are hardworking or lazy because what matters is the actual SALES obtained. Similarly, I certainly agree that its the audio quality that is actually produced that matters irregardless of how much the HiFi/HT system costs but there is also a very important factor that needs to be mentioned... after everything possible is done... its the ears that decides and THAT is soooo difficult to judge because each person's hearing perception is different.

Sorry for my late reply as I was setting up my new Elac floor standers which arrived two days ago.

This post has been edited by jamesleetech: Aug 18 2016, 04:31 PM

Yup. Need a long time to run-in.

Elac FS 409.

Returned my new Elac CC 241.3 to replace with Elac CC 400 centre speakers to make it the same Series 400 as my floor-stands. Distributor offer me to "upgrade" to same series without any loss from me, just pay the difference in price. Will receive my new Elac CC 400 tomorrow.

Not fully run in yet. Initial view is that the character is different. Both MA Gold and FS 409 have ribbon treble drivers. Have to switch my AV Controller main speakers to "Large" to test.

FS409 more detail but slightly harsh in the upper frequencies so I think it needs time for it to smoothen away the harshness. Its midrange is slightly warmer and more lively, and the low bass is punchier but have more control on its tightness (what I call as better bass decay). The overall soundstage is lifted and wider than before but it feels as though its still a bit bright sounding and the vocals seem to sound quite dispersed. Well... needs time for it to "massage" to get its best potential. I think these FS409 will become more dynamic when my new 300 watts @ 8 ohms stereo power amp arrive in about 1 week.

The MA Gold can go down to 35Hz and the FS 409 can reach 28Hz. When I tested with a scene from "Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol" where a bomb vibrates and explodes during the rescue of the hero, Ethan... the MA Gold just cannot withstand the 2 to 3 seconds super low frequency that the woofer vibrates so violently that some "cracking" sound is heard so I quickly mute the volume when the first cracking sound was heard. For the FS 409, it can handle it properly without the cracking sound but I am still a bit scared when I saw its woofers also vibrate a lot so I quickly mute the volume again. I believe that ALL floor-stand speakers (new and old) cannot manage to handle super low frequencies, some can tolerate woofer vibration better and some tolerate less. It just means that the FS 409 can tolerate low bass better, that's all. Don't simply try this so when you start to hear cracking sound during woofer vibrations, it means the woofer coils is beginning to "hit" the sides so quickly stop playing. I quickly changed the setting back to "Small" Main speakers. That's why bass management is also important to "protect" the woofer of the main speakers by redirecting the very low frequencies to the bass tai-koh which called as the Boom Box, hehe... I mean the sub-woofers.

Hehehe... the MA Gold is a beautiful princess, so eloquent, dignified and meticulous more suited for HiFi kaki. The FS 409 is a Queen, more matured and more authoritative in its handling with more strength but still can maintain its composure without losing out too much eloquence.

Well... that's what my ears "talk" to me so my views here is pretty debatable. A guy who heard the FS 409 in Amcorp Mall told my friend that he will really regret if it is bought because he said that these speakers treble are tooooo high and very bad boomy bass. So, please do NOT believe me as my ears may be faulty... each person should believe his/her own ears and then make a decision because its that person who spend the money, not me.

Arigato Gozaimasta.... thanks.

Yes, master Yoda. A strong Force you have. Coming in, it is. MC302 it will be.

Thanks. Glossy finish is finger print magnet.

I have deleted all my earlier comments here a few times because my answer will not be correct without further details from you.

Is this what you want to connect for your system as shown below...



Mmm... if its connected like the above, its a bit confusing because you can just connect your AVR Pre-Out directly to your Power Amp so its not necessary to use the Int. Amp. Is it because you want the CD Player and Turntable to be connected to the Int. Amp so you need the Int. Amp?

When you play PCM Stereo from the bluray player... yes, the integrated + power amp will send audio out to your Stereo HiFi Speakers BUT your 2 Home Theatre Front Speakers will also have sound too.

You need to mention what AVR, Integrated Amp and Players that you are using AND what are your actual intentions. Are all your source players connected directly to your AVR, not to your Int. Amp? Difficult to answer without specific details loh.

Right now, if I assume you have a bluray player, I don't know whether your bluray just have a single HDMI out and a single Optical Out OR also have two Stereo RCA Outs.

Are you using just a single bluray player connected to your AVR?

Is this what you want?....
When you are using the bluray player to play blurays disc with 7.1 surround audio, you intend to switch off the Int. Amp connected to your bookshelf.
When you are using the same bluray player to play CD discs, you intend to use the Int. Amp connected to your bookshelf and don't want sound from your 7.1 speakers.

If you have a CD player and a Turntable... you should connect them directly to your Int. Amp... if they are connected to your AVR then what is your reason for not connecting to your Int. amp?

This post has been edited by jamesleetech: Aug 22 2016, 02:45 AM

I think I know what you actually want. I did almost the same thing previously but I only used a Hegel H300 Int. Amp direct out to the 2 Front floor-stands, no power amp used.

I think this is what you want as shown by my poorly drawn diagram below...



I do understand why you would want your other sources such as the CD player and Turntable to connect directly to your Int. Amp because obviously the sound quality is much better than your AVR loh. Also, you can only connect your Bluray Player via HDMI to your AVR due to HT decoding (DTSMA, Dolby TrueHD, etc).

If you connect the AVR Pre-Out (Front L and R) directly to your Power Amp, you will get much better sound quality for your HT... BUT... you have to connect your CD Player and Turntable to the AVR which is okay but not as good compared to using your Int. Amp.

Aaah.... now you want to squeeze the best out of your system by adding in the Int. Amp specifically for your CD Player and Turntable. Fine, no problem... just disconnect the AVR Pre-Outs to the Int. Amp but you will not be able to use your Front speakers for HT!! IF you throw away the Int. Amp and use the AVR directly connect to your Power Amp, then your CD Player and Turntable needs to be connected to the AVR which will not get better sound quality compared to the Int. Amp, hehehe. You also want to "share" your Power Amp for all your sources (Bluray Player, CD Player, Turntable, etc) to just 1 pair of Front Speakers!!

WOW... pretty complicated and same for me too because I did it in a similar way.

Phew... after all my complicated explanations, the connection diagram above should tell the whole story better.

Its time to answer your question on whether you can do it that way.

Mmm... you can BUT do remember that BOTH your AVR and your Integrated Amp do have Volume Controls.

Normally, when we connect a Pre-Amp/Integrated Amp "Pre-Outs" to a Power Amp, its the Pre-Amp/Int. Amp that controls the audio volume so the Power Amp don't have such volume control.

In your situation, I think there should be an issue when both your AVR and Int. Amp can control the audio volume!!! The audio loudness will drop significantly so you need to push your Int. Amp Volume to maximum so that your AVR volume control can adjust the "correct" volume for all your 7 speakers. You just cannot use your AVR volume as maximum to allow the Int. Amp to control because your centre and other speakers will BOMB! There is a danger when you set your Int. Amp to max volume for playing blurays from AVR and you forgot to turn the Int. Amp volume down to play your CDs... your speakers will go BAM, POW, crackkk!

Here is what happened to my relative early this year... his connection is slightly different as he uses 2 bookshelfs and 2 floorstands speakers. He has an Onkyo AV Pre-Amp so he needed a 5 channel Power Amp to connect (not using 7.1). Unfortunately, he only have a 3 channel power amp and a Denon AVR !!! What he did was use the 3 channel Power amp for his 2 Fronts and 1 Centre, then used the Denon Pre-In for his 2 Surrounds. When he connected his Onkyo 2 Surround Pre-outs to his Denon AVR 2 Pre-ins, he had to turn up his Denon AVR to MAXIMUM in order to hear the proper surround loudness!! Unfortunately, turning volume to max is actually pushing the AVR internal "power amp" circuits to work very hard and at the same time, its internal "pre-amp" is still running. I would expect that heat issues for his Denon AVR should be a problem. I told him this at that time and I was not surprised when he told me that his Denon AVR feels very hot so he sold off his AVR and 3 channel Power Amp and then got a 5 Channel Power Amp for all his speakers!

The connection diagram below shows my previous setup before I sold off my Denon AVR-4520 and Hegel H300...



My Denon AVR only have 150watts @ 8 ohms so I wanted to make use of my Hegel Amp 250watts @ 8 Ohms which has better power and better audio quality for my 2 Front Floor-stand speakers. Similar to you, I only have 1 pair floorstands to use so I do need to "share" them with my AVR and Hegel, hehehehe. If I disconnect my AVR to my Hegel, I need another pair of speakers. If I throw away my Hegel, I lose the audio quality of a very good Hegel Int. Amp. Of course the best solution for me is to buy another pair of floorstands or bookshelves which are more suited for HiFi listening BUT BUT... my room is just not big enough to accommodate so many of my AV/HiFi gear plus speakers, not possible so I had to "share" my floorstands. That's why I had to compromise on buying a pair of floorstands which has the "best" overall audio quality for both HiFi and HT eventhough there is no such thing loh.

I bought my Denon AVR first, then I thought of getting an Int. Amp for my HiFi needs BUT I also need my 2 Front floorstands to "somehow" be shared with both the AVR and Int. Amp. Then I thought of this *ah-hem* "brilliant" idea. The solution is an Int. Amp with HT (Home Theatre) Bypass Inputs which allows it to function as a Power Amp only by bypassing or switching off its internal pre-amp circuitry so that its Volume Control is disabled AND the output is fixed at near to 100%.

I found what I needed in the Hegel H300 Integrated Amp which has a HT Bypass Input. When I play my blurays, I switch my Hegel knob to "HT Bypass" and woalah, my Hegel behaves like a Power Amp with the volume set to 85%. When I play my CD player, I switch my Hegel knob to "CD" input and my Hegel now goes back to normal integrated amp with the volume back to normal, hehehe.

I upgraded to solely use a much better AV Controller (Pre-Amp) as the main central unit for ALL my sources from DAC to Turntable to CD/SACD to Blurays so I sold off my Hegel H300. Then I added in a few Power Amps for my various speakers.

I don't actually know whether your Int. Amp can produce audio that is powerful enough when you turn its volume not to max. If you can get the proper loudness for your blurays, then your Int. Amp should be good enough for your purpose. BUT if you needed to push your Int. Amp to max volume, then you may have overheating issues or mmm... maybe audio clipping. You can try, and maybe its all good for you but ... I will just full stop here.



My personal unqualified view is to change the Int. Amp to one that has Home Theatre Bypass which should properly fit your needs here but I am not a pro in this so my views may not be correct. If you cannot afford to change the Int. Amp or still prefer to use the Int. Amp because of its excellent audio quality, then obviously the "replacement upgrade" will be impossible.

I hope my comments and views here helped you in some way. As usual, if anyone finds any errors here, please do correct me. No problem.

This post has been edited by jamesleetech: Aug 22 2016, 07:32 PM

Thanks. I just try to help fellow AV HT/HiFi lovers here whenever I have the time to do so. Well... I can also make mistakes too.

You are welcome. As long as you are careful on your Class A power amp and not crank it up too high volume, I think it should be fine and okay.

I am in the same situation as you with limited space in my "gadget" room which is also my bedroom too. So I also used just 1 pair of Front floorstand speakers. I even sold off my Monitor Audio Silver 2 bookshelves to make some space for my other toys.

How much are the Salk Soundscapes and the Sierra Towers? Who are the dealers in KL?

Ok.

You ordered the Sierra Towers "natural" finish at USD 2098... or you chose a different finish? Did you finally decide to add in the Custom RAAL 70-20xr with AM Core Transformer for USB 700? I wonder how much it will cost to ship by UPS for this 24.95 KG speakers.

This post has been edited by jamesleetech: Aug 24 2016, 06:09 PM