this thread highlights a major problem with medical schol entry process in theis country..........ie the lack of consistent criteria being applied across the kleidoscope of medical training options for malaysians.........from ipta, to private med schools to cheap foreign ones in russia and indonesia and to prohibitively expensive world class ones in the first world...........

unlike most other countries, where selection is stringent and only the best of the youth are selected, there are lots of "backdoor" opportunities here.............

as long as you have money, and a willingness to venture to unknown destinations, all for the sake of having a dr in front of you name, and potentially lots of money...........one can get into a medical school somewhere, even with mediocre matriculation results.........

this "not necessary selecting the best" phenomena occur across all the sectors, ipta included.........an inevitable outcome when other agendas come into play, other than the search for brightest and altruistic of youths.............

hence this discussion..........straight As students unsure of their worth, and others with lesser results getting in instead...........

you failed to get my point.............i am not saying 2a2b is bad, just that there is no consistency in selection process............so you have flat 4 students not getting in say oz med schools, because of the intense competition, but a 3.0 will qualify to get into russia..............

the whole med education thing is POORLY mamaged in malaysia..............

that is my point lah............why must "rich" ones go to first world, and poor ones go to 3rd world?

any sensible country will make sure the right candidates are selected, based on predetermined consistent set of criteria, and NOT on whether you can afford it...........

lori, if this is the level of english we can expect from graduates from russia, i worry for the future of health care in malaysia............

what did you get for spm english and 1119?

you have just highlighted one of the the basic problems with med education in malaysia, people with poor results being accepted.................while those with flat 4's worry about getting a place.................

actually you are right, there are good med schools there, just that many wrong candidates get in.............

no i do not expect the general lyn forumers to be perfect in english........

however, i expect anyone who gets into medicine, to have a minimum standard of ability, languages included, in this case english.

in fact, based on the dumbing down of spm, and the fact some 4000 gets straight a's i think nobody who gets less than a's in the core subjects (sciences, math, english)(some 8000 of them) should even think of doing medicine.............there are enough from that cohort who are interested and able to do medicine..............

and no med school should take them in............but the reality is, many foreign med schools from the 3rd world, "sells" places to the highest bidder, and as long as you can get a few credits and pay the fees, they are happy to take you in................

that is my problem..............not saying that the med schools in russia/indonesia/india are no good, but the fact that they compromise on their intake criteria to take in people for money...............tells something about the commercialisation of education..........

don't get me wrong, save for a few countries, and a few well known universities, all universities are also selling education............the difference is how selection takes place................in the quality of students taken in, lies the quality of the school.............

i am not sure what you are trying to say...............??

recognition of med schools in malaysia is a political decision, and not based on any consistent policy...............

as for studying the same thing, as far as raw knowledge in the pre-clinical sciences, yes, you will all study the same things...............but when it comes to clinical years, the practices can vary widely in different countries............and you will learn the kind of practice where you are trained.............

and there is wide difference in the calibre of the medical students being admitted...........

wrong on all 4 accounts..........

there are med schools which will take people in with very mediocre results, as long as you can pay the capitation and tuition fees..............

who do NOT "recognise" medical schools, but they register them, and compile them into a list.........that is all.............

"recognition" is an act by a sovereign nation, to register graduates with the "recognised" degrees to allow them rights to practice medicine............nothing to do AT ALL with who or un...........

which med schools gets recognised then may depend on a set of criteria, or just whatever the political expediency of the time............most advanced countries control recognition to safeguard the standard of health care in that country...........

malaysia tend to recognise med schools the gov wants to send their scholarship students to............and not those where politically it does not want............so hence Uni of Bagdad is recognised (yes!) but NOT the Taiwan med schools............

and the usa do NOT recognise ANY medical schools out of the us and canada (not even uk and europe), all will need to sit and pass the qualifying test (umsle) to be able to register to practise............

singapore do NOT recognise any of malaysia's med schools till recently, where they decided to recognise 2, um and ukm.........and they do NOT recognise all oz med schools, only the main ones...........

as to clinical differences, there are significant differences in how medicine is practised in different countries.................if you are a med student now, you may not know as you are only exposed to one system, but you will when you go practise in another country.................

finally............yes, there are med schools where you can fail, and after paying the required monies, or attend the "special" tutorials, and get the "trial" exam papers...............voila...........you passed.............

fyi.............

This post has been edited by limeuu: May 23 2007, 06:06 PM

i wonder how many other educational establishment will recognised the un-benchmarked in house programme like this..............especially when they can "adjust" the marking at their will and fancy...............that is the main problem with these programmes, and this includes the matrik programme.............completely unbenchmarked internationally........

as has been explained many times, mmc will only accord recognition just before graduating the first batch, so about now.............

and who DO NOT "recognise" medical schools, they just record the existence of such medical schools.........recognition, as in the meaning one is ALLOWED to practise medicine, is the sovereign right of each individual country, and the rules are as many and as varied as there are countries in the world,.........but one thing for sure, at this point, and the foreseeable future, this degree will NOT be recognised outside malaysia..............

recognition for registration to practice is based on your basic 1st degree.........subsequent qualifications are post-graduate ones, and usually not looked at for registration purposes.

what you need to do to get registered in other countries depends on the rules of that country, so i cannot generalise. eg for us, ALL will need to sit and pass the umsle. there was talk about malaysia doing that as well, but i doubt. in any case, if they want to do that they should follow what the us does for their LOCAL graduates, ie all, including local us med graduates have to pass the umsle too.

it is difficult to compare and say which schools are better, manipal is more established, so the degrees are already recognised by mmc, but that does NOT mean it is "better". if there is a delay, it may mean there is a problem with the programme. the mmc rules are quite strict (though not as strict as other countries) as to the conditions for recognition, and many new med schools cannot meet the requirements, and are sometimes only given provisional recognition to be reviewed. this has happened even to ipta med schools.

as for qualifying to sit for foreign postgraduate exams, it depends on the awarding bodies. i think the british royal colleges will recognise most of the commonwealth med schools for this purpose, but i am not sure about the new ones, you will need to contact them directly to ask. by the way, the frcp is not an exam qualification, but given honorary to senior members of the college, and sometimes prominent members of the local comunity.

the mrcs is NOT recognised by malaysia, but the frcs still is. however, it is almost impossible for local graduates to get the british frcs nowadays due to training preresquisites and restrictions on who can sit the exams.

yes, for most of the surgical postgraduates, the only pathway left for the majority of local grads, is the masters.

no local medical school, both ipta and ipts, have ever had their degrees NOT recognised by mmc............you can come to your own conclusions about that fact............

go to their website.....?http://www.aimst.edu.my/

This post has been edited by limeuu: Mar 26 2008, 07:09 PM

there has NEVER been any medical school in msia, which has not got mmc recognition when the first batch graduates, no matter what the shortfalls may be.......yes, aimst has got mmc recognition....

for the uninitiated,

mmc recognises whether you are a doctor and can practice in msia or not......1st step for all doctors......

spa is the EMPLOYER for all government servants, so since ALL doctors needs to do 2 years housemanship (if not done already elsewhere) and 3 years compulsory service, ALL doctors will AUTOMATICALLY become civil servants for 3-5 years minimum.....so the formality of 'applying for a job' with the spa.......EVERY doctor will get a job!!

as a civil servant, you are then assigned to one of 3 ministries which 'uses' doctors, ie moh, moe, and mod........the vast majority will of course go to moh......

finally, i hope you all are not deciding on your unis based on the buildings..........

This post has been edited by limeuu: Apr 16 2008, 05:59 PM

if you wanna max your options, do a generic pre-u course like a-levels, IB, oz year 12 (sam, ausmat, nsw-hsc etc).........

not necessarily......there are over 300 foundation students fighting for 100 places......, and some of these 100 places will be given to 'external' applicants eg, a-levels etc......so if you do the foundation and fails to get in, you are stuffed.........

there is always an issue when entry is based on an in-house foundation programme rather than an internationally recognised matriculation like a-levels/ib/oz year12 etc.....about whether you are selecting the best students.....

'qualifying' just means satisfying the minimum.......not selecting the best......the minimum can be a lowly equivalent of say ter85, a-level BBB.......

finally, aimst foundation appears not to be recognised by other ipts.....you get stucked, and will not be able to apply for other unis like monash or imu........

you don't think this is a problem?....

okay, let's see how you choose your doctors when your parents or yourself becomes sick........

This post has been edited by limeuu: Jun 22 2008, 06:06 PM

when the time comes, you will face the issue......of course it's theoretical at the moment.......

there is the SCIENCE and the ART of medicine.....

to be good in the science, you really have to have a brilliant mind....and that is why good academic results is the first prerequisite.....

the art of medicine is more tricky, and is NOT liked to academic ability.....some people calls it the eq....as opposed to iq........

the vast majority of brilliant students/doctors will have good eq too.....but not all.......and it is these exceptions that people time and time again use to justify that good results is not essential to make a good doctor.....

on the other hand, there will be those weaker students who struggles through their studies and eventually their working life.......but have good eq, and patients still like them, even though they may not be very competent or knowledgeable.......

developed countries recognise all these, and then select their med students carefully.......first step, only the bright students are shortlisted (generally means top 5% of the student cohort).....and from this group, by personality assessment and interview, choose those who is deemed potentially will be good in the art of medicine.......

many med students with poor academic results in msian and 3rd world med schools, will never have even pass the first step were they in 1st world countries.......

This post has been edited by limeuu: Jun 23 2008, 06:12 PM

aimst mbbs is now registrable with the mmc......there has never been a case of any local degree not been recognised by the mmc........i am however not aware of any other country that recognises it.....it is relatively new anyway....

in the real world, if the cost is not an issue (you are very rich, or someone is willing to pay whatever expenses for you)......yes patients will choose their doctors based on quality (or perceived quality)........if they have access to information and data about the hospital/doctors......that is why patients from small towns will seek treatment in big towns, indonesians flocked to msia hospitals, malaysians go to singapore, singaporeans go to oz/uk/us........that is NOT an ideal situation, but is an inevitable outcome if quality and standards are not seen to be uniform........that is why the 1st world countries TRY to take this guesswork out of the equation as much as possible........ie ensure ALL med graduates have undergone the most stringent selection process, and the best training, and ALL doctors thus produced are equally COMPETENT and SAFE.......

try......it is of course not perfect, but at least they try.......

are we trying?