Your thoughts on the next HOTS patch, ..what should they nerf and buff?
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  Mar 21 2013, 01:28 PM, updated 13y ago
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#1
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Senior Member
2,694 posts Joined: Feb 2007 From: KL  
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Hi guys,
I really do think widow mine is OP. Now, doing muta harrass or lings run-by is almost impossible if the Terran is expert in using widow mines. When they are going offensive, they can put mines, while Zerg wanna attack they fall back and the mines will do it's job.. Sigh.. Just remove this unit Blizzard..  |
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Mar 21 2013, 01:32 PM
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#2
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Junior Member
93 posts Joined: Dec 2006
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bring more overseer fly around...
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Mar 21 2013, 01:42 PM
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#3
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Senior Member
2,694 posts Joined: Feb 2007 From: KL
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QUOTE(coleman5951 @ Mar 21 2013, 01:32 PM) bring more overseer fly around... must concentrate on each of the overseer too. If not overseer also die from the mines. This puts more things to micro for Zerg   |
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Mar 21 2013, 01:42 PM
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#4
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Senior Member
5,369 posts Joined: Jan 2007 From: KL Malaysia
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QUOTE(hazairi @ Mar 21 2013, 01:28 PM) |
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Mar 21 2013, 01:44 PM
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#5
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Senior Member
1,036 posts Joined: Oct 2007 From: Moon
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Sky toss!
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Mar 21 2013, 01:46 PM
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#6
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Senior Member
2,694 posts Joined: Feb 2007 From: KL
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QUOTE(Moonflown @ Mar 21 2013, 01:44 PM) Sky toss! yeah, sky toss too.Zerg will always be a victim.. |
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Mar 21 2013, 05:16 PM
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#7
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140 posts Joined: Jan 2012
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QUOTE(hazairi @ Mar 21 2013, 01:28 PM) Hi guys, Please watch the VODs of how ST_Life beat KT_Flash in the just-concluded MLG HotS Tournament. Flash had tons of mines around, but Life's lings took little to no damage from them. If you attack-move your units over them widow mines, then you're doing it wrong.I really do think widow mine is OP. Now, doing muta harrass or lings run-by is almost impossible if the Terran is expert in using widow mines. When they are going offensive, they can put mines, while Zerg wanna attack they fall back and the mines will do it's job.. Sigh.. Just remove this unit Blizzard.. There's also a thread in TeamLiquid where forumers discuss the mathematics involved in the design and workings of the widow mine. A must-read. On another note, I've been reading that SkyToss is just too strong. However, a recent Blizzard post (I can't remember if it's by David Kim) says that it's too early to patch stuff as the game hasn't been figured out yet, and that Blizzard is seeing very creative ways how one race combats the other. I also remember watching IdrA during the HotS Beta where he used Vipers, Swarm Hosts and Hydras vs Skytoss. It was a long game, but IdrA won. |
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Mar 21 2013, 05:42 PM
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#8
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2,694 posts Joined: Feb 2007 From: KL
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QUOTE(EnTaroAdun23 @ Mar 21 2013, 05:16 PM) Please watch the VODs of how ST_Life beat KT_Flash in the just-concluded MLG HotS Tournament. Flash had tons of mines around, but Life's lings took little to no damage from them. If you attack-move your units over them widow mines, then you're doing it wrong. Thanks bro! I'll study on that! It's just that now since the widow mines, Zerg has to do more micro. Gone are the days for easy ling run-bys and muta harass... There's also a thread in TeamLiquid where forumers discuss the mathematics involved in the design and workings of the widow mine. A must-read. On another note, I've been reading that SkyToss is just too strong. However, a recent Blizzard post (I can't remember if it's by David Kim) says that it's too early to patch stuff as the game hasn't been figured out yet, and that Blizzard is seeing very creative ways how one race combats the other. I also remember watching IdrA during the HotS Beta where he used Vipers, Swarm Hosts and Hydras vs Skytoss. It was a long game, but IdrA won. |
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Mar 21 2013, 06:11 PM
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#9
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140 posts Joined: Jan 2012
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QUOTE(hazairi @ Mar 21 2013, 05:42 PM) Thanks bro! I'll study on that! It's just that now since the widow mines, Zerg has to do more micro. Gone are the days for easy ling run-bys and muta harass... In one of my posts in one of the other threads, I've said that the WoL Terran is underpowered. Widow mines kinda balanced it out in HotS. Yes, gone are the days of attack-moving your lings towards the Terran front line, which is the Swarm-iest thing about the Zerg. This time, you can still swarm your army towards the front line, but you have to do so intelligently. So it's actually Blizzard making ZvT better by taking out the Zerg mentality of: "Bah, I lost my forces, but I could still create more and attack the Terran while he's still waiting for reinforcements!" ..and changing it to: "If I 1-A into this, I'm going to lose my army, while the Terran doesn't lose his, so I'll be at a disadvantage when he attacks back". |
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Mar 21 2013, 06:27 PM
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2,694 posts Joined: Feb 2007 From: KL
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QUOTE(EnTaroAdun23 @ Mar 21 2013, 06:11 PM) In one of my posts in one of the other threads, I've said that the WoL Terran is underpowered. Widow mines kinda balanced it out in HotS. hahaha yeah, but kinda suck, as previously that was my plan. Swarm in with the lings, banes and mutas before the tanks sieges, but now can't do anymore... Yes, gone are the days of attack-moving your lings towards the Terran front line, which is the Swarm-iest thing about the Zerg. This time, you can still swarm your army towards the front line, but you have to do so intelligently. So it's actually Blizzard making ZvT better by taking out the Zerg mentality of: "Bah, I lost my forces, but I could still create more and attack the Terran while he's still waiting for reinforcements!" ..and changing it to: "If I 1-A into this, I'm going to lose my army, while the Terran doesn't lose his, so I'll be at a disadvantage when he attacks back". ((( |
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Mar 21 2013, 06:40 PM
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140 posts Joined: Jan 2012
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Nope, you can't anymore.
We're Zerg. And we are a reactionary race. We scout and adapt. You just have to figure things out. Who said StarCraft was easy? |
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Mar 22 2013, 10:10 AM
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Senior Member
2,694 posts Joined: Feb 2007 From: KL
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Yeah agreed. But I do think that Blizzard should do something about the mines. Hopefully the next patch would be a good news... hehe
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Mar 22 2013, 10:19 AM
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5,369 posts Joined: Jan 2007 From: KL Malaysia
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QUOTE(EnTaroAdun23 @ Mar 21 2013, 06:11 PM) In one of my posts in one of the other threads, I've said that the WoL Terran is underpowered. i missed terran craft in GSL |
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Mar 26 2013, 01:39 AM
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1,143 posts Joined: Aug 2006 From: not everywhere..but somewhere..
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then, all the terran games i fought, if they did not go for widow mines, they auto lose. period.
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Mar 26 2013, 08:32 AM
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2,694 posts Joined: Feb 2007 From: KL
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QUOTE(keretapir @ Mar 26 2013, 01:39 AM) then, all the terran games i fought, if they did not go for widow mines, they auto lose. period. indeed. widow mine is the most OP unit in HOTS. Blizzard, pls remove this unit.. lol |
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Apr 10 2013, 12:26 PM
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244 posts Joined: Oct 2007 From: KL, Malaysia
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QUOTE(EnTaroAdun23 @ Mar 21 2013, 06:11 PM) In one of my posts in one of the other threads, I've said that the WoL Terran is underpowered. Widow mines kinda balanced it out in HotS. Mines squashing Zergs who just attack-move into the Terran line is a good thing as it promotes more flanking and multi-pronged attacks from Zerg, making for a better game. On the other hand, mines shutting down muta harass is bad for the game as Zergs will just stop making mutas for fear of a couple mines taking out the whole flock, so there is less harass making for a less dynamic and exciting game.Yes, gone are the days of attack-moving your lings towards the Terran front line, which is the Swarm-iest thing about the Zerg. This time, you can still swarm your army towards the front line, but you have to do so intelligently. So it's actually Blizzard making ZvT better by taking out the Zerg mentality of: "Bah, I lost my forces, but I could still create more and attack the Terran while he's still waiting for reinforcements!" ..and changing it to: "If I 1-A into this, I'm going to lose my army, while the Terran doesn't lose his, so I'll be at a disadvantage when he attacks back". Personally I think the widow mines should just hit ground, but cost less supply. |
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Apr 10 2013, 07:21 PM
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140 posts Joined: Jan 2012
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I still stand by my comment that nothing has to be changed in HotS.
I'm very happy that the skill ceiling has been raised by A LOT. Gone are the days when Gold players could beat Masters (yep, the happiest moment in my SC2 life). Let me leave a quote from a random Redditor who commented on Artosis' Tumblr post. It was a long post, but the last paragraph said it all: "Basically the basis of strategy comes down to 2 things: Your understanding and your execution. Understanding is limited by your execution. Execution is limited by your understanding. HotS has increased the complexity of the game and the increased burden and decisions have made the game generally more rewarding for those players (who) have a higher understanding and execution". Edit: My apologies, the quote wasn't from Artosis, but from a random Redditor who commented on Artosis' Tumblr post. Here's Artosis post regarding skill ceiling: » Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... « This post has been edited by EnTaroAdun23: Apr 11 2013, 11:51 AM |
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Apr 11 2013, 11:53 AM
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Junior Member
134 posts Joined: Jul 2006
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I agreed on EnTaro point. I m happy with the current state of HotS. So many thing is yet to be discovered by pro.
Ex: Binding cloud + Swarm host, I have not seen Zerg use this ability extensively as BW Zerg player use it frequently (Dark Swarm + Lurker). I believe the potential is huge Full Mech for Terran. I know is kinda hard bcos in BW, Tank are the backbone. But in HotS, Tank are kinda weak but I believe something can be done by the Pro to make it viable with stronger Thor and Mines Even more Air play by Protoss. I would like to see it. So happy to see Stork use Carrier in HotS. The commander is back. In BW times, Flash have to build 3 layer of turret just to stop mass recall by Toss |
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Apr 11 2013, 11:58 AM
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Junior Member
304 posts Joined: Nov 2008
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make more overseer/bring overseer with ur army....less a move~
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Apr 11 2013, 12:00 PM
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106 posts Joined: Jun 2012
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Swarm host is bullshit and needs a huge nerf. Mass swarm host pretty much shuts down all mech play.
Maybe if they give longer downtime animation for burrowing/unburrowing just like the siege tanks, and temporarily reveal their burrow location when they spawn locusts, then it would be balanced. Right now it;s just f***ing retarded that they can just burrow, spawn locusts and attack extremely long distances, and unburrow away so fast. |
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Apr 11 2013, 03:06 PM
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654 posts Joined: May 2011 From: SOVIET SARAWAK
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QUOTE(Exmuslim @ Apr 11 2013, 12:00 PM) Swarm host is bullshit and needs a huge nerf. Mass swarm host pretty much shuts down all mech play. Either that or your just noob in Terren.. You have nukes, banshee and scan to take out Swarm host andyou don't use all that ??? Maybe if they give longer downtime animation for burrowing/unburrowing just like the siege tanks, and temporarily reveal their burrow location when they spawn locusts, then it would be balanced. Right now it;s just f***ing retarded that they can just burrow, spawn locusts and attack extremely long distances, and unburrow away so fast. Swarm host don't need nerf .. it needs buff and same goes to Zerg air. |
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Apr 11 2013, 04:22 PM
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106 posts Joined: Jun 2012
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QUOTE(TruthHurts @ Apr 11 2013, 03:06 PM) Either that or your just noob in Terren.. You have nukes, banshee and scan to take out Swarm host andyou don't use all that ??? all three of those are useless against mass swarm hosts.Swarm host don't need nerf .. it needs buff and same goes to Zerg air. |
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Apr 11 2013, 04:26 PM
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654 posts Joined: May 2011 From: SOVIET SARAWAK
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QUOTE(Exmuslim @ Apr 11 2013, 04:22 PM) all three of those are useless against mass swarm hosts. A simple MMM is good enough .. after killing the first wave of swarm host, you should have scan + stim MMM to the Swarm host location. I seen it done many times. That locust have cooldown. Unless you kill the first wave and just chicken stand on that area giving Swarm host to replenish its locust. |
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Apr 11 2013, 04:31 PM
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140 posts Joined: Jan 2012
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Like my previous post said:
Understanding is limited by your execution. Execution is limited by your understanding. |
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Apr 11 2013, 04:36 PM
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Junior Member
304 posts Joined: Nov 2008
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if possible do not engage swarm host locust directly~ try to flank or counter attack~ swarm host is slow
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Apr 11 2013, 05:18 PM
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106 posts Joined: Jun 2012
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QUOTE(TruthHurts @ Apr 11 2013, 04:26 PM) A simple MMM is good enough .. after killing the first wave of swarm host, you should have scan + stim MMM to the Swarm host location. I seen it done many times. That locust have cooldown. but then he'll have the same bullshit ling banesUnless you kill the first wave and just chicken stand on that area giving Swarm host to replenish its locust. |
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Apr 11 2013, 10:09 PM
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12 posts Joined: Jul 2008
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Still very rare seeing vipers dragging ultralisks up on the hill to ambush. Not worthwhile perhaps?
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Apr 11 2013, 11:44 PM
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140 posts Joined: Jan 2012
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QUOTE(Jerry416 @ Apr 11 2013, 10:09 PM) Still very rare seeing vipers dragging ultralisks up on the hill to ambush. Not worthwhile perhaps? From Liquipedia:QUOTE Vipers see less use in Zerg vs. Zerg than in the other two match-ups. The speed of Zerg units, especially on creep, makes it easy to move out of Blinding Cloud. In addition, the relative inexpensiveness of the units most commonly used in the match-up (notably Zerglings, Mutalisks, and Roaches) makes them poor targets for Abduct. Regardless, Vipers can still be of some limited use against large groups of Roaches and Hydralisks, utilizing Blinding Cloud to force them to give up key positions so that an attacking player can secure a better concave, or force the opposing army back into a choke point. In my opinion, it's not worth the cost and time. Two Vipers cost 200/400/6 (minerals/gas/supply) +200/150 for Hive. Comparing it to 3 infestors (300/450/6) +150/150 for pathogen glands and how much earlier you could get infestors compared to vipers. Also, except for its Blinding Cloud, it wouldn't do much against mass roach/hydra as opposed to throwing fungal growths from the infestors. And if your opponent goes Mutalisks, teching to Hive (and ultimately to Vipers) will be a big waste. |
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Apr 12 2013, 06:28 AM
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654 posts Joined: May 2011 From: SOVIET SARAWAK
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QUOTE(Exmuslim @ Apr 11 2013, 05:18 PM) but then he'll have the same bullshit ling banes Add tanks as backups, if bane comes MMM steam run toward tanks and let the tank kill bane from a far. Make sure you spread your tanks .. |
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Apr 12 2013, 06:31 AM
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Senior Member
654 posts Joined: May 2011 From: SOVIET SARAWAK
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QUOTE(EnTaroAdun23 @ Apr 11 2013, 11:44 PM) From Liquipedia: I really have a crazy idea using viper to beat Airtoss but need to test this theory.. In my opinion, it's not worth the cost and time. Two Vipers cost 200/400/6 (minerals/gas/supply) +200/150 for Hive. Comparing it to 3 infestors (300/450/6) +150/150 for pathogen glands and how much earlier you could get infestors compared to vipers. Also, except for its Blinding Cloud, it wouldn't do much against mass roach/hydra as opposed to throwing fungal growths from the infestors. And if your opponent goes Mutalisks, teching to Hive (and ultimately to Vipers) will be a big waste.  I really wish they just lower the gas to 150 since I don't see much use for them other than grabbing units. |
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Apr 12 2013, 11:02 AM
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Junior Member
140 posts Joined: Jan 2012
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QUOTE(TruthHurts @ Apr 12 2013, 06:31 AM) I really have a crazy idea using viper to beat Airtoss but need to test this theory.. On his stream during the Beta, IdrA beat Skytoss using Hydra/Viper/Swarmhost. He was grabbing the Tempests with his Vipers towards the hold-position Hydralisks positioned behind the Swarmhosts. This whittled down the Skytoss force, forcing the toss to go Stalker. But IdrA was already morphing his Corruptors to Broodlords. I really wish they just lower the gas to 150 since I don't see much use for them other than grabbing units.That, if I remember correctly, was a 40 minute game. |
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Apr 12 2013, 11:29 AM
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Senior Member
654 posts Joined: May 2011 From: SOVIET SARAWAK
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QUOTE(EnTaroAdun23 @ Apr 12 2013, 11:02 AM) On his stream during the Beta, IdrA beat Skytoss using Hydra/Viper/Swarmhost. He was grabbing the Tempests with his Vipers towards the hold-position Hydralisks positioned behind the Swarmhosts. This whittled down the Skytoss force, forcing the toss to go Stalker. But IdrA was already morphing his Corruptors to Broodlords. But the problem is the food is capped hard depend on how many units you use. I was thinking like more solid movable Zerg spore. LOTSssss of spore cannon and viper fishing. That, if I remember correctly, was a 40 minute game. |
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Apr 12 2013, 12:31 PM
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140 posts Joined: Jan 2012
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QUOTE(TruthHurts @ Apr 12 2013, 11:29 AM) But the problem is the food is capped hard depend on how many units you use. I was thinking like more solid movable Zerg spore. LOTSssss of spore cannon and viper fishing. Yep, good point. Vipers are 3 supply. So are Swarm Hosts. Then you have Infestors, Hydralisks at 2 supply each.Spore front line is good, so make sure you have creep tumors ready to spread forward. I suddenly realized, with a ton of spores, if the Toss tech-switches to gateway units, you're done for. Goodness, I love this game. Makes me think a lot. |
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Apr 12 2013, 12:49 PM
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Senior Member
654 posts Joined: May 2011 From: SOVIET SARAWAK
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QUOTE(EnTaroAdun23 @ Apr 12 2013, 12:31 PM) Yep, good point. Vipers are 3 supply. So are Swarm Hosts. Then you have Infestors, Hydralisks at 2 supply each. But if you want to spread creep fast .. just use nydus worm.. They can spawn in an area and spew creeps .. you can transfer the queen there and plant creep tumour in advance .. move drone there and make spore cannons. Spore front line is good, so make sure you have creep tumors ready to spread forward. I suddenly realized, with a ton of spores, if the Toss tech-switches to gateway units, you're done for. Goodness, I love this game. Makes me think a lot. |
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Apr 13 2013, 06:42 PM
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Senior Member
2,694 posts Joined: Feb 2007 From: KL
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Rage mode on:
Why Terran is so OP? marines: Try the unit tester, they pawn hydras and stalkers easily in terms of the cost effectiveness of the units! This doesn't make any sense as hydras has no special abilities and it is a tier 2 unit. (at least stalkers have blink). Pls don't compare with roaches / zerglings / zealots. They are ground to ground only unit. detection: they have 3 types of detection. Scan, turrets and ravens. mules: mid to late game, even if you kill most of their workers. Ain't need no worry! They have mules! another 60 seconds game time, they restored their 200/200 marines. Of course this is just an exaggeration. Base race advantage: they can fly all their buildings and put it to every corners of the world. Other? I think you guys can add up. This is an open debate. Let's roll!  |
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Apr 14 2013, 02:27 AM
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Junior Member
304 posts Joined: Nov 2008
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the medivac ignition is imba thou~ but swarm host n mutalisk is imba definitely need some nerfing
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Apr 14 2013, 09:56 AM
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Senior Member
654 posts Joined: May 2011 From: SOVIET SARAWAK
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QUOTE(SiewKaiz @ Apr 14 2013, 02:27 AM) the medivac ignition is imba thou~ but swarm host n mutalisk is imba definitely need some nerfing You say Zerg imba but the StarCraft 2 community say Skytoss and Terren are OP. |
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Apr 14 2013, 10:57 AM
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304 posts Joined: Nov 2008
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QUOTE(TruthHurts @ Apr 14 2013, 09:56 AM) You say Zerg imba but the StarCraft 2 community say Skytoss and Terren are OP. n yet zerg win tournament's~ |
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Apr 14 2013, 11:04 AM
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Senior Member
654 posts Joined: May 2011 From: SOVIET SARAWAK
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QUOTE(SiewKaiz @ Apr 14 2013, 10:57 AM) n yet zerg win tournament's~ Because Zerg player have to work hard keeping awareness at all time high cause they have to micro every single casting ability plus their units are paper weak while Protoss are solid hard with high damage and Terren just macro since they have that automatic options available to them. |
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Apr 14 2013, 01:06 PM
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304 posts Joined: Nov 2008
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QUOTE(TruthHurts @ Apr 14 2013, 11:04 AM) Because Zerg player have to work hard keeping awareness at all time high cause they have to micro every single casting ability plus their units are paper weak while Protoss are solid hard with high damage and Terren just macro since they have that automatic options available to them. really~? how many spell caster zerg hav compare to toss~? |
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Apr 14 2013, 01:49 PM
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Senior Member
654 posts Joined: May 2011 From: SOVIET SARAWAK
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QUOTE(SiewKaiz @ Apr 14 2013, 01:06 PM) really~? how many spell caster zerg hav compare to toss~? Spell caster & specialised abilityZerg + Infestor + Viper + Queen + Corruptor + Overseers Protoss + High Templar + Oracle + Sentry + Mothership / Core + Phoenix + Voidrays |
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Apr 14 2013, 02:02 PM
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QUOTE(TruthHurts @ Apr 14 2013, 01:49 PM) Spell caster & specialised ability You don't actually NEED to use corruption to win, or make changelings to win lol. Protoss actually needs to activate, lift, storm, guardian shield, forcefield, time warp etc so no.Zerg + Infestor + Viper + Queen + Corruptor + Overseers Protoss + High Templar + Oracle + Sentry + Mothership / Core + Phoenix + Voidrays |
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Apr 14 2013, 02:27 PM
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Senior Member
654 posts Joined: May 2011 From: SOVIET SARAWAK
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QUOTE(slimyboy @ Apr 14 2013, 02:02 PM) You don't actually NEED to use corruption to win, or make changelings to win lol. Protoss actually needs to activate, lift, storm, guardian shield, forcefield, time warp etc so no. I make use of any ability available.Changelings included. |
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Apr 14 2013, 02:33 PM
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QUOTE(TruthHurts @ Apr 14 2013, 11:04 AM) Because Zerg player have to work hard keeping awareness at all time high cause they have to micro every single casting ability plus their units are paper weak while Protoss are solid hard with high damage and Terren just macro since they have that automatic options available to them. Your point was this. So no, during battle you DON'T use injects (except for macro of course), you don't cast changelings. While protoss actually need to use ALL their casting abilities or they lose. And Zergs don't make infestors now. Other than microing a potential flank and A-moving their army, you only use abducts. This post has been edited by slimyboy: Apr 14 2013, 02:37 PM |
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Apr 14 2013, 02:49 PM
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Senior Member
654 posts Joined: May 2011 From: SOVIET SARAWAK
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QUOTE(slimyboy @ Apr 14 2013, 02:33 PM) Your point was this. Its all the game from start to finish. Since when I focus on just battle only ? Read properly laaaaaaaaaa !!! So no, during battle you DON'T use injects (except for macro of course), you don't cast changelings. While protoss actually need to use ALL their casting abilities or they lose. And Zergs don't make infestors now. Other than microing a potential flank and A-moving their army, you only use abducts. Who want to use changeling at the wrong time anyway ... Saw a lot of mistake people make using Zerg vs Protoss.. that is low overseer count. Zerg do make infestor when required. At least 3 ~ 4 infestors just to charge up and use fungal growth to hold them. |
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Apr 15 2013, 03:05 PM
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Senior Member
2,694 posts Joined: Feb 2007 From: KL
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 Look at the graph on end of March 2013 for HOTS. Terran drastically improve after HOTS. Terran really is OP! *chart is from aligulac.com taking into account only Pro player games. |
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Apr 15 2013, 04:18 PM
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2,631 posts Joined: Jun 2009
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just curious, since we have gaming gears with programmable buttons, is it allowed to set macro key(1 key performing more than 1 button) when playing the game?
I tried googling around and can't find any absolute answer, some says yes in ladder but no in tourney, some say no in all games, etc. just wanna seek clarification as still new to the game. thanks |
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Apr 15 2013, 04:42 PM
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140 posts Joined: Jan 2012
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QUOTE(shirley_andy @ Apr 15 2013, 04:18 PM) just curious, since we have gaming gears with programmable buttons, is it allowed to set macro key(1 key performing more than 1 button) when playing the game? www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=146760I tried googling around and can't find any absolute answer, some says yes in ladder but no in tourney, some say no in all games, etc. just wanna seek clarification as still new to the game. thanks If you wanna waste a copy of WoL/HotS to test it out, be my guest. |
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Apr 15 2013, 05:10 PM
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Senior Member
2,694 posts Joined: Feb 2007 From: KL
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QUOTE(EnTaroAdun23 @ Apr 10 2013, 07:21 PM) I still stand by my comment that nothing has to be changed in HotS. Yes you may be correct. Did you remember when they first released WOL?I'm very happy that the skill ceiling has been raised by A LOT. Gone are the days when Gold players could beat Masters (yep, the happiest moment in my SC2 life). Let me leave a quote from a random Redditor who commented on Artosis' Tumblr post. It was a long post, but the last paragraph said it all: "Basically the basis of strategy comes down to 2 things: Your understanding and your execution. Understanding is limited by your execution. Execution is limited by your understanding. HotS has increased the complexity of the game and the increased burden and decisions have made the game generally more rewarding for those players (who) have a higher understanding and execution". Edit: My apologies, the quote wasn't from Artosis, but from a random Redditor who commented on Artosis' Tumblr post. Here's Artosis post regarding skill ceiling: » Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... « They nerfed and buffed many units ever since. From barracks build time, gateway build times, from queen range and many more. And why did they do that? Simple, 'balance'. On the study this balance, they have to take on the statistics. And as HOTS is just a newborn baby, I don't think it's well balanced yet. There are many possibility that is yet to explore. |
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Apr 15 2013, 07:55 PM
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Junior Member
140 posts Joined: Jan 2012
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QUOTE(hazairi @ Apr 15 2013, 05:10 PM) And as HOTS is just a newborn baby, I don't think it's well balanced yet. There are many possibility that is yet to explore. Exactly! Why balance something that is yet to be explored? Why balance the game based on possibility? You simply can't do that. Explore! Make the possibility reality first, THEN you balance.Yes I remember WoL completely. Blizz made kneejerk "balance fixes" that were balanced around horribly small maps (think Xel'naga Caverns). I note you think the game isn't well balanced. That's your personal opinion. Wanna know my opinion? Increase Siege Tank range. Remove Mothership Core and Mothership. Remove Warp Gate Tech. Buff gateway units. Make Psi Storm standard with all HTs. Increase supply cap to 300. Everything else as is. BUT! Blizz won't release a balance patch based on your opinion or my opinion alone. You may ask, "what about the opinions of GMs and the pros?". You wanna know why Blizz hasn't released a patch yet? It's not because Blizz doesn't care about their players. They just don't want history to repeat itself and roll out kneejerk reactions/patches. Blizz will not nerf widow mines. Not yet at least. I've read the statistics too. Master Terrans winning against Master Zergs 59% of the time if they use any amount of widow mines. It may be an anomaly but I don't think it's something for Blizzard to panic about. Why? Because there is this reality that ST_Life beat Flash (and his widow mines) in 6 games to win MLG Dallas. If he can do it, why can't we? Don't blame the game because of your opinion that it isn't balanced or because your APM doesn't allow you to do amazing stuff like the pros. It's not the game's fault that you have hit your skill cap. Level up. Learn something new. Watch Day9. Practice against better players. Again: "Basically the basis of strategy comes down to 2 things: Your understanding and your execution. Understanding is limited by your execution. Execution is limited by your understanding. HotS has increased the complexity of the game and the increased burden and decisions have made the game generally more rewarding for those players (who) have a higher understanding and execution". There's more to the game than just balance whining. Just my 2 cents. |
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Apr 15 2013, 08:33 PM
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Newbie
0 posts Joined: Aug 2010
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hmm.. so many opinion on the balance issue. But why not start a thread on discussing on how to and what to do for every match up for TVZ,PVZ, ZVT and also ladder map. something like Rule of engagement MLG VOD. Maybe we can share out and solve any problem we facing in our match up
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Apr 15 2013, 10:00 PM
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Senior Member
2,694 posts Joined: Feb 2007 From: KL
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QUOTE(EnTaroAdun23 @ Apr 15 2013, 07:55 PM) Exactly! Why balance something that is yet to be explored? Why balance the game based on possibility? You simply can't do that. Explore! Make the possibility reality first, THEN you balance. Yes, that's what this thread is all about. Opinions. Yes I remember WoL completely. Blizz made kneejerk "balance fixes" that were balanced around horribly small maps (think Xel'naga Caverns). I note you think the game isn't well balanced. That's your personal opinion. Wanna know my opinion? Increase Siege Tank range. Remove Mothership Core and Mothership. Remove Warp Gate Tech. Buff gateway units. Make Psi Storm standard with all HTs. Increase supply cap to 300. Everything else as is. BUT! Blizz won't release a balance patch based on your opinion or my opinion alone. You may ask, "what about the opinions of GMs and the pros?". You wanna know why Blizz hasn't released a patch yet? It's not because Blizz doesn't care about their players. They just don't want history to repeat itself and roll out kneejerk reactions/patches. Blizz will not nerf widow mines. Not yet at least. I've read the statistics too. Master Terrans winning against Master Zergs 59% of the time if they use any amount of widow mines. It may be an anomaly but I don't think it's something for Blizzard to panic about. Why? Because there is this reality that ST_Life beat Flash (and his widow mines) in 6 games to win MLG Dallas. If he can do it, why can't we? Don't blame the game because of your opinion that it isn't balanced or because your APM doesn't allow you to do amazing stuff like the pros. It's not the game's fault that you have hit your skill cap. Level up. Learn something new. Watch Day9. Practice against better players. Again: "Basically the basis of strategy comes down to 2 things: Your understanding and your execution. Understanding is limited by your execution. Execution is limited by your understanding. HotS has increased the complexity of the game and the increased burden and decisions have made the game generally more rewarding for those players (who) have a higher understanding and execution". There's more to the game than just balance whining. Just my 2 cents. Master Terrans winning against Master Zergs 59% of the time when they use widow mines --> That's a statistic fact. ST_Life beat Flash (and his widow mines) in 6 games to win MLG Dallas --> That's a rare occasion. Yes, ST_Life can produce such feat beating Flash, but can you just judge the game based on just 1 BO6 (or more) from 2 Pro players? That's why they have statistic department. They gather statistic from thousands of matches. But yes, maybe in the future Zerg will learn to adapt and hopefully it can be a game changer. The fact is no matter how well balanced you think the game is, Blizzard will not listen to you neither cause sooner or later, there will be a balancing patch. You know that and we all know that. When we play football, we whine or cry to the ref for making stupid decisions, yet they are human who can't avoid making mistakes. Same as the people from Blizzard. We whine on the balance even though you know they will not hear you. We whine to the ref while watching our favorite team losing but will the ref hear your voice distance away. That's the beauty of SC2. You play, involve, emotions.. damn it feels so good...  |
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Apr 20 2013, 09:00 PM
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Junior Member
304 posts Joined: Nov 2008
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swarm host definitely need nerf compare to widow mine~
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Apr 21 2013, 01:34 AM
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Senior Member
2,694 posts Joined: Feb 2007 From: KL
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QUOTE(SiewKaiz @ Apr 20 2013, 09:00 PM) swarm host definitely need nerf compare to widow mine~ just remove the unit. I don't care coz I'm not using it.. |
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Apr 21 2013, 01:22 PM
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Junior Member
304 posts Joined: Nov 2008
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QUOTE(hazairi @ Apr 21 2013, 01:34 AM) just remove the unit. I don't care coz I'm not using it.. good idea~ |
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Apr 21 2013, 02:06 PM
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Senior Member
2,694 posts Joined: Feb 2007 From: KL
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QUOTE(SiewKaiz @ Apr 21 2013, 01:22 PM) good idea~ to be fair, remove widow mine too |
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Apr 21 2013, 02:34 PM
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Junior Member
304 posts Joined: Nov 2008
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QUOTE(hazairi @ Apr 21 2013, 02:06 PM) to be fair, remove widow mine too hav no problem for that toobut widow mine fine as it is now |
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Apr 22 2013, 10:59 AM
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Senior Member
5,369 posts Joined: Jan 2007 From: KL Malaysia
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QUOTE(SiewKaiz @ Apr 14 2013, 10:57 AM) n yet zerg win tournament's~ LOL   |
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Apr 22 2013, 11:02 AM
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Senior Member
5,369 posts Joined: Jan 2007 From: KL Malaysia
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QUOTE(hazairi @ Apr 15 2013, 03:05 PM) |
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Apr 22 2013, 11:06 AM
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Senior Member
5,369 posts Joined: Jan 2007 From: KL Malaysia
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QUOTE(SiewKaiz @ Apr 21 2013, 02:34 PM) hav no problem for that too protoss is suffering as it is especially players like me who absolutely loathes castersbut widow mine fine as it is now +35 dmg to shields, what a TIL moment when my expensive protoss shit were dying like paper |
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Apr 22 2013, 12:53 PM
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Junior Member
134 posts Joined: Jul 2006
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Sounds to me like SCII player are spoiled kids. I believe every problem, there are a solutions. No need to raise up hand to tell teacher everytime.
Sorry but I have to relate it back to BW. Mines in BW is even scarier; detect cloak unit, free, moves faster (as vulture is fast), cost no supply. They just can't hit air. So what Toss do in BW, they will send out mines cleaner team every time (Dragoon and observer) or use Zealot bomb. (rush a zealot to denote all the mines on Terran unit) 2 Lurker of Zerg on the high ground with stop position can kill an entire bio unit of Terran. So Terran have to split Marine, Placing mines near Lurker, etc etc. Dark Swarm (resemble Viper's blinding cloud) makes all range unit disable, and u know what, all the Terran unit are range type except firebat. Yet, creativity always find its way. BW aren't a balance game. If no creativity, Protoss will just outright crush Terran and Zerg. But this is not the case. Although widely regard Terran is the weakest and the hardest race to play but so many bonjwa actually comes from Terran. Zerg is consider a dead race for few years before Saviour comes and reinvent the whole game style of Zerg, as a result Zerg player almost dominate the SC scene. There are only about 20% of player played Terran in BW bcos of this imbalances but the BW survive and produces one of the most glory chapter of e-sport(Flash vs Jaedong vs Bisu). I believe HotS of SC2 have this potential. Let this imbalances provide entertainment for us. |
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Apr 22 2013, 01:17 PM
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Junior Member
304 posts Joined: Nov 2008
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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Apr 22 2013, 11:06 AM) protoss is suffering as it is especially players like me who absolutely loathes casters not sure thou...~ my best PvX is against T in all 3 server i played..... SH is pain in the ass thou+35 dmg to shields, what a TIL moment when my expensive protoss shit were dying like paper QUOTE(jeffvip @ Apr 22 2013, 12:53 PM) Sounds to me like SCII player are spoiled kids. I believe every problem, there are a solutions. No need to raise up hand to tell teacher everytime. In BW , protoss unit is strong ox like an space orc, zealot were faster almost as fast as speedlings with leg upgrade... but right now in SC2, protoss unit is just like Double A A4 Paper.... Sorry but I have to relate it back to BW. Mines in BW is even scarier; detect cloak unit, free, moves faster (as vulture is fast), cost no supply. They just can't hit air. So what Toss do in BW, they will send out mines cleaner team every time (Dragoon and observer) or use Zealot bomb. (rush a zealot to denote all the mines on Terran unit) 2 Lurker of Zerg on the high ground with stop position can kill an entire bio unit of Terran. So Terran have to split Marine, Placing mines near Lurker, etc etc. Dark Swarm (resemble Viper's blinding cloud) makes all range unit disable, and u know what, all the Terran unit are range type except firebat. Yet, creativity always find its way. BW aren't a balance game. If no creativity, Protoss will just outright crush Terran and Zerg. But this is not the case. Although widely regard Terran is the weakest and the hardest race to play but so many bonjwa actually comes from Terran. Zerg is consider a dead race for few years before Saviour comes and reinvent the whole game style of Zerg, as a result Zerg player almost dominate the SC scene. There are only about 20% of player played Terran in BW bcos of this imbalances but the BW survive and produces one of the most glory chapter of e-sport(Flash vs Jaedong vs Bisu). I believe HotS of SC2 have this potential. Let this imbalances provide entertainment for us. |
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Apr 22 2013, 02:10 PM
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Senior Member
5,369 posts Joined: Jan 2007 From: KL Malaysia
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QUOTE(SiewKaiz @ Apr 22 2013, 01:17 PM) protoss unit is just like Double A A4 Paper.... |
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Apr 22 2013, 02:16 PM
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Senior Member
851 posts Joined: Nov 2004
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QUOTE(SiewKaiz @ Apr 22 2013, 01:17 PM) protoss unit is just like Double A A4 Paper.... Actually, if you put Double A A4 paper in a stack, they're impossible to tear and can be used to smack someone really hard.Protoss units are more like dust particles. They're annoying, then you turn on the vacuum and they're all gone. |
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Apr 22 2013, 02:19 PM
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Junior Member
304 posts Joined: Nov 2008
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QUOTE(dishwasher @ Apr 22 2013, 02:16 PM) Actually, if you put Double A A4 paper in a stack, they're impossible to tear and can be used to smack someone really hard. well to get that stack of Double A A4 paper is hard especially z/t tear it pieces by pieces b4 u can get ur stack~Protoss units are more like dust particles. They're annoying, then you turn on the vacuum and they're all gone. |
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Apr 22 2013, 02:20 PM
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Senior Member
851 posts Joined: Nov 2004
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QUOTE(SiewKaiz @ Apr 22 2013, 02:19 PM) well to get that stack of Double A A4 paper is hard especially z/t tear it pieces by pieces b4 u can get ur stack~ I love you man. Have my babies. |
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Apr 22 2013, 02:22 PM
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Junior Member
304 posts Joined: Nov 2008
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QUOTE(dishwasher @ Apr 22 2013, 02:20 PM) I love you man. Have my babies. no thx~ u can let quaza/truthhurts to hav ur babies |
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Apr 22 2013, 02:22 PM
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Senior Member
5,369 posts Joined: Jan 2007 From: KL Malaysia
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QUOTE(dishwasher @ Apr 22 2013, 02:20 PM) I love you man. Have my babies. |
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Apr 22 2013, 02:27 PM
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Junior Member
134 posts Joined: Jul 2006
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QUOTE(SiewKaiz @ Apr 22 2013, 01:17 PM) not sure thou...~ my best PvX is against T in all 3 server i played..... SH is pain in the ass thou They are sux in BW too compared to powerful 2 1 Terran Mech Army. So they play guerilla style as zerg play today. Always expanding far from Terran, make sure they are 1 base ahead. Keep trading, Try run-by, surrounding attack, mass teleport in the Terran production area.In BW , protoss unit is strong ox like an space orc, zealot were faster almost as fast as speedlings with leg upgrade... but right now in SC2, protoss unit is just like Double A A4 Paper.... PS: Zealot will never die & dirt cheap with high dps, how weak are they? |
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Apr 22 2013, 02:29 PM
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Senior Member
5,369 posts Joined: Jan 2007 From: KL Malaysia
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QUOTE(jeffvip @ Apr 22 2013, 02:27 PM) PS: Zealot will never die & dirt cheap with high dps, how weak are they? which game are you playing? |
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Apr 22 2013, 03:09 PM
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Junior Member
304 posts Joined: Nov 2008
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QUOTE(jeffvip @ Apr 22 2013, 02:27 PM) They are sux in BW too compared to powerful 2 1 Terran Mech Army. So they play guerilla style as zerg play today. Always expanding far from Terran, make sure they are 1 base ahead. Keep trading, Try run-by, surrounding attack, mass teleport in the Terran production area. thats why P is awesome in BW, can do guerilla.... now hardly guerilla with the double A a4 paper unit....~ they do die by become dragoon in the past and stalker now.....~ Fenix died too u know.... awesome zealotPS: Zealot will never die & dirt cheap with high dps, how weak are they? |
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Apr 22 2013, 03:13 PM
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Senior Member
5,369 posts Joined: Jan 2007 From: KL Malaysia
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QUOTE(SiewKaiz @ Apr 22 2013, 03:09 PM) they do die by become dragoon in the past and stalker now http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/StalkerDTs, not zealot |
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Apr 22 2013, 03:15 PM
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Junior Member
304 posts Joined: Nov 2008
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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Apr 22 2013, 03:13 PM) for my army is zealot not dt's.... coz after all my zealot dead... i warp in stalker in next warpin round |
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Apr 22 2013, 03:21 PM
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Senior Member
5,369 posts Joined: Jan 2007 From: KL Malaysia
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QUOTE(SiewKaiz @ Apr 22 2013, 03:15 PM) for my army is zealot not dt's.... coz after all my zealot dead... i warp in stalker in next warpin round all imported from china anyways |
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Apr 22 2013, 03:31 PM
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Junior Member
304 posts Joined: Nov 2008
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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Apr 22 2013, 03:21 PM) all imported from china anyways wat to do~ the only reliable source for protoss army... while terran and zerg unit is not made from china... |
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Apr 22 2013, 03:47 PM
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Junior Member
140 posts Joined: Jan 2012
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QUOTE(jeffvip @ Apr 22 2013, 12:53 PM) Sounds to me like SCII player are spoiled kids. I believe every problem, there are a solutions. No need to raise up hand to tell teacher everytime. True that, bro. Kids today just whine instead of thinking of ways to solve the problem. QUOTE(jeffvip @ Apr 22 2013, 12:53 PM) BW aren't a balance game. If no creativity, Protoss will just outright crush Terran and Zerg. But this is not the case. Although widely regard Terran is the weakest and the hardest race to play but so many bonjwa actually comes from Terran. Zerg is consider a dead race for few years before Saviour comes and reinvent the whole game style of Zerg, as a result Zerg player almost dominate the SC scene. Yep, Savior totally dominated in his glory days. He was totally overpowered. Until Bisu figured him out, and 3-0'ed him in the MSL Finals. I have read TL's Final Edit articles on Savior lots of times and watched his videos, and they still amaze me. And I am equally amazed at how Bisu beat him. What an innovator.That's what we wanna see. Players figuring out stuff. Not "ZOMG <insert unit> is so OP, just remove this from the game lol" QUOTE(jeffvip @ Apr 22 2013, 12:53 PM) There are only about 20% of player played Terran in BW bcos of this imbalances but the BW survive and produces one of the most glory chapter of e-sport(Flash vs Jaedong vs Bisu). I believe HotS of SC2 have this potential. Let this imbalances provide entertainment for us. The last balance patch released for SCBW was in 2001. And everyone thought, crap, this shit is imbalanced. Blizzard should fix it. But they didn't. What fixed the pro scene was the community itself. Nope, they didn't try to balance the game themselves. They made tournament maps that balanced the game. Wide open maps with an easy natural and somewhat defendable 3rd. But most importantly, the pros did their homework too. They analyzed builds, they analyzed opponent's builds, then they modified their own builds to hit vulnerable timings. They worked to get better. No doubt they got angry and shit on Blizzard for giving the other race friggin' overpowered units, but they still worked. Their mentality was such that, "I'm going to learn this with the expectation that Blizzard will not release another balance patch". And holy crap, did that work out well for everyone. They won, the fans exulted, treating all of us to beautiful games. The losers, nope, they didn't whine, they learned, analyzed this new build, and made it their own.Nada is a prime example. What a force back then, lost all of it (after personal tragedy), then came back to become a champion. |
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Apr 22 2013, 04:40 PM
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Junior Member
134 posts Joined: Jul 2006
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QUOTE(SiewKaiz @ Apr 22 2013, 03:09 PM) thats why P is awesome in BW, can do guerilla.... now hardly guerilla with the double A a4 paper unit....~ they do die by become dragoon in the past and stalker now.....~ Fenix died too u know.... awesome zealot Agreed. P unit cannot move in a small pack. P was so fun to watch in BW. But P games in SC2 sux, no matter what race P against with. Some fundamental problem is wrong with SC2 P. I just don't understand. They can win game or lose game with just small margin in all matchups. Luckily the new HotS TvZ are here to save E-sports. QUOTE(EnTaroAdun23 @ Apr 22 2013, 03:47 PM) True that, bro. Kids today just whine instead of thinking of ways to solve the problem. Stop it, I miss BW games d. Yep, Savior totally dominated in his glory days. He was totally overpowered. Until Bisu figured him out, and 3-0'ed him in the MSL Finals. I have read TL's Final Edit articles on Savior lots of times and watched his videos, and they still amaze me. And I am equally amazed at how Bisu beat him. What an innovator. That's what we wanna see. Players figuring out stuff. Not "ZOMG <insert unit> is so OP, just remove this from the game lol" The last balance patch released for SCBW was in 2001. And everyone thought, crap, this shit is imbalanced. Blizzard should fix it. But they didn't. What fixed the pro scene was the community itself. Nope, they didn't try to balance the game themselves. They made tournament maps that balanced the game. Wide open maps with an easy natural and somewhat defendable 3rd. But most importantly, the pros did their homework too. They analyzed builds, they analyzed opponent's builds, then they modified their own builds to hit vulnerable timings. They worked to get better. No doubt they got angry and shit on Blizzard for giving the other race friggin' overpowered units, but they still worked. Their mentality was such that, "I'm going to learn this with the expectation that Blizzard will not release another balance patch". And holy crap, did that work out well for everyone. They won, the fans exulted, treating all of us to beautiful games. The losers, nope, they didn't whine, they learned, analyzed this new build, and made it their own. Nada is a prime example. What a force back then, lost all of it (after personal tragedy), then came back to become a champion.  TBLS play is the pinnacle of BW. Every game of them is amazing. |
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Apr 22 2013, 05:05 PM
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Senior Member
5,369 posts Joined: Jan 2007 From: KL Malaysia
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QUOTE(jeffvip @ Apr 22 2013, 04:40 PM) Agreed. P unit cannot move in a small pack. P was so fun to watch in BW. But P games in SC2 sux, no matter what race P against with. Some fundamental problem is wrong with SC2 P. I just don't understand. They can win game or lose game with just small margin in all matchups. - caster reliant- micro intensive - other races are very capable of a-move, doing a-move with protoss usually involves you exiting the game with the "defeat!" word at the score screen. it's not to say protoss are completely broken, as evident at pro level where they have a fighting chance despite always ended up losing anyways. at lower level player (eg: me) where a player's micro is not as skillful, they do not have the capability to utilize protoss's advantage and constantly create issues of being roflstomped too easily. this isn't even a problem of strategy or "figuring out how the game works instead of QQ'ing", it's how the race was designed for SC2 WOL and HOTS, casters casters abilities abilities and MORE friggin abilities and having units priced at a premium while performing subpar compared to other units just because they have abilities like blink. in this example: this means that unless you're blinking like a god damn pro, chances are your stalkers are just free food to MM/tanks/mines/lings/roach/hydras etc etc of course, a simple way is just to QQ about it. (eg: WAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH WIDOW MINES +35 SHIELDSSSSS PROTOSS BROKEN) but really, if you put further thoughts into the game mechanics comparing all 3 races together, it isn't really that hard to figure out. |
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Apr 22 2013, 05:19 PM
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Junior Member
140 posts Joined: Jan 2012
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QUOTE(jeffvip @ Apr 22 2013, 04:40 PM) Agreed. P unit cannot move in a small pack. P was so fun to watch in BW. But P games in SC2 sux, no matter what race P against with. Some fundamental problem is wrong with SC2 P. I just don't understand. They can win game or lose game with just small margin in all matchups. TBLS were amazing, but for me, every pro game of BW was amazing:Luckily the new HotS TvZ are here to save E-sports. Stop it, I miss BW games d. TBLS play is the pinnacle of BW. Every game of them is amazing. - TvTs featuring Leta, Flash, Sea, Hiya and Fantasy - PvX play from Rain, Stats, JangBi, Best, Stork - ZvZs from Roro, Zero, Hydra, HoeJJa Add the flashes of brilliance from the lesser known players, and the old-school games of Nada, July, oov, Boxer, Savior, Kingdom, Nal-ra, Yellow........ Man, those were the days. |
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Apr 22 2013, 05:34 PM
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Senior Member
2,694 posts Joined: Feb 2007 From: KL
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I have to agree on some of your opinions regarding Protoss of SCII.
From my opinion as a Zerg player; Protoss race lacks the random surprise strategy. Usually it's very predictable on the early and mid game. No wonder in HOTS, they introduce more harassment units such as mothacore and oracle. |
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Apr 22 2013, 05:40 PM
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Senior Member
5,369 posts Joined: Jan 2007 From: KL Malaysia
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QUOTE(hazairi @ Apr 22 2013, 05:34 PM) I have to agree on some of your opinions regarding Protoss of SCII. problems:From my opinion as a Zerg player; Protoss race lacks the random surprise strategy. Usually it's very predictable on the early and mid game. No wonder in HOTS, they introduce more harassment units such as mothacore and oracle. - momma core slow - oracle expensive, takes time to get there, where by DTs may be even more effective options are there, however executing them perfectly is an entire different thing altogether. |
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Apr 22 2013, 05:58 PM
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Senior Member
2,694 posts Joined: Feb 2007 From: KL
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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Apr 22 2013, 05:40 PM) problems: yeah. Most Diamond Protoss players that i encounter will just play standard. 2 base 8-9th min timing push or early 3 base macro.- momma core slow - oracle expensive, takes time to get there, where by DTs may be even more effective options are there, however executing them perfectly is an entire different thing altogether. But the better player can just kill me at the timing push using a powerful FF... i know i'm suck. |
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Apr 22 2013, 06:29 PM
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Senior Member
654 posts Joined: May 2011 From: SOVIET SARAWAK
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I am now ranking up .. see how well i rank .. it seems to me i play bronz leauge .
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Apr 22 2013, 07:09 PM
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Junior Member
134 posts Joined: Jul 2006
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QUOTE(hazairi @ Apr 22 2013, 05:58 PM) yeah. Most Diamond Protoss players that i encounter will just play standard. 2 base 8-9th min timing push or early 3 base macro. Zerg & Terran really have a lot variety than Protoss. Hence, they are really boring to watchBut the better player can just kill me at the timing push using a powerful FF... i know i'm suck. |
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Apr 22 2013, 08:30 PM
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Senior Member
851 posts Joined: Nov 2004
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I don't play that much any more, but maybe my... insights as a casual player might help a bit. Who knows.
The main problem with toss its that its one dimensional. You general tactic will be to survive, tech up, mass an army and destroy your opponent. Perhaps that's why the deathball was always talked about - simple, its the only real way for a casual player, looking for a game or two every night, to play and win. Look at terrans. They have options coming out of every orifice you can name. Get some low level units and move in (MM). Siege the opponent and expand yourself (tanks). Drops. Mines. You go into a game knowing you have options, and if the initial tactic fails, you CAN fall back or rebuild. Marines are cheap, and disproportionately strong at that level. As a toss, you could never fall back. Your army is slow, and when you commit, you fight to the death. The core helps in this respect, but lose the core and then what? Zerg is the race of options. Cheap units, the ability to mass produce, and map control means they're the 'reactionary race' (not my term, regular players should know this phrase). You could do ling runbys, you could muta harass, or just A-move roaches. They're even better than terrans at adapting, what with the cheap units. At high level play, protoss do have a chance. Remember when the game first came out and pros wow-ed people with forcefields? Yeah, I learned to utilize forcefields, but it was never easy. I'd make mistakes, leave a gap and loose my army. It was so very punishing. Silly mistakes like accidentally waypointing a colossus to the middle of the map was a huge setback. Accidentally waypoint a thor? Get some marines, they have plenty of DPS; you're not reliant on your thor to defeat the enemy. It all felt so unforgiving, that at one point it was no longer fun. There's this game I remember distinctly, where I did everything right, got an army up and wiped out the zerg opponent's 2 expansions, losing a fair bit of my army in the process. He tech switched to broodlords with his remaining corrupters, and well, I couldn't replace my stalkers fast enough. Kudos to him, he played well, but I wish I could come back from games like that, but the fact is, I'm all in and then its a win/lose situation. I guess air toss is blizzard's attempt at giving toss more flexibility, but it feels half baked. A pro can do wonders with air toss, and win games, and impress, but I have to ask... couldn't a pro do the same with ground units? Where's the balance at lower levels? Skill should matter, whether it be bronze or masters. Maybe I lack imagination, or perhaps I'm just bad at SC2. I suspect my problem lies in being too passive, letting opponents dictate the pace of the game, but that's another story. I just wish, for once, I could tell my friends, 'Hey, I A-moved my zealots into the marines and I won'. This post has been edited by dishwasher: Apr 22 2013, 08:33 PM |
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Apr 22 2013, 09:12 PM
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Senior Member
2,694 posts Joined: Feb 2007 From: KL
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QUOTE(jeffvip @ Apr 22 2013, 07:09 PM) Zerg & Terran really have a lot variety than Protoss. Hence, they are really boring to watch QUOTE(dishwasher @ Apr 22 2013, 08:30 PM) I don't play that much any more, but maybe my... insights as a casual player might help a bit. Who knows. Yeah, agree with both of your opinions. But the best thing is that for a Protoss player to be on a good level, they can just practice on the standard play (of course including FF skill) and crush their opponent on 8th-9th timing attack. The main problem with toss its that its one dimensional. You general tactic will be to survive, tech up, mass an army and destroy your opponent. Perhaps that's why the deathball was always talked about - simple, its the only real way for a casual player, looking for a game or two every night, to play and win. Look at terrans. They have options coming out of every orifice you can name. Get some low level units and move in (MM). Siege the opponent and expand yourself (tanks). Drops. Mines. You go into a game knowing you have options, and if the initial tactic fails, you CAN fall back or rebuild. Marines are cheap, and disproportionately strong at that level. As a toss, you could never fall back. Your army is slow, and when you commit, you fight to the death. The core helps in this respect, but lose the core and then what? Zerg is the race of options. Cheap units, the ability to mass produce, and map control means they're the 'reactionary race' (not my term, regular players should know this phrase). You could do ling runbys, you could muta harass, or just A-move roaches. They're even better than terrans at adapting, what with the cheap units. At high level play, protoss do have a chance. Remember when the game first came out and pros wow-ed people with forcefields? Yeah, I learned to utilize forcefields, but it was never easy. I'd make mistakes, leave a gap and loose my army. It was so very punishing. Silly mistakes like accidentally waypointing a colossus to the middle of the map was a huge setback. Accidentally waypoint a thor? Get some marines, they have plenty of DPS; you're not reliant on your thor to defeat the enemy. It all felt so unforgiving, that at one point it was no longer fun. There's this game I remember distinctly, where I did everything right, got an army up and wiped out the zerg opponent's 2 expansions, losing a fair bit of my army in the process. He tech switched to broodlords with his remaining corrupters, and well, I couldn't replace my stalkers fast enough. Kudos to him, he played well, but I wish I could come back from games like that, but the fact is, I'm all in and then its a win/lose situation. I guess air toss is blizzard's attempt at giving toss more flexibility, but it feels half baked. A pro can do wonders with air toss, and win games, and impress, but I have to ask... couldn't a pro do the same with ground units? Where's the balance at lower levels? Skill should matter, whether it be bronze or masters. Maybe I lack imagination, or perhaps I'm just bad at SC2. I suspect my problem lies in being too passive, letting opponents dictate the pace of the game, but that's another story. I just wish, for once, I could tell my friends, 'Hey, I A-moved my zealots into the marines and I won'. |
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Apr 22 2013, 11:52 PM
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Junior Member
134 posts Joined: Jul 2006
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QUOTE(hazairi @ Apr 22 2013, 09:12 PM) Yeah, agree with both of your opinions. But the best thing is that for a Protoss player to be on a good level, they can just practice on the standard play (of course including FF skill) and crush their opponent on 8th-9th timing attack. I remember reading someone post on TL regarding thisZerg race have the earliest learning curve problem, Zerg player will have problem when to create drone, when to build army, when to expand, and those larvae inject and creep spreading. Terran player are in the middle learning curve. They done everything right, macro all the time but whole 200 army just wipe out to a few storms. They have to start learn from there, attack by timing, utilizing ghost, multiple drops Protoss player are the last in the learning curve (means Protoss player are hitting the rock much much later compare to both T & Z). They just don't know why their usual deathball start to fail them, they feel like nothing they can do. They can't push out early but yet lost on macro game. Maybe they have to be more map awareness, expecting drop with HT instead of warping army when the drop arrived, etc So, I can actually see there are more frustrated P player compare to T or Z |
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Apr 23 2013, 10:36 AM
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Junior Member
304 posts Joined: Nov 2008
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i think lately protoss r like more reactive compare to z~..... we need to scout either z go hydra/muta/roach/ early bust/aggression b4 going further tech.... scout terran going bio/bio-mech/mech b4 also b4 going expand/tech
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Apr 23 2013, 03:57 PM
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Junior Member
41 posts Joined: Aug 2010
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when did they put afterburner on the medicvac? the tempest IMHO bit over powered
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Apr 23 2013, 04:54 PM
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Newbie
0 posts Joined: Apr 2013
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QUOTE(Z1gy @ Apr 23 2013, 03:57 PM) when did they put afterburner on the medicvac? the tempest IMHO bit over powered it was during the beta phase... but then they also reduced the speed of the medivacs as well.now terran players will need to get really, really, really good at multitasking for all those drops..... it's going to take a while for me to get good lol |
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Apr 23 2013, 10:41 PM
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Junior Member
140 posts Joined: Jan 2012
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To those hoping for a balance update on widow mines, tempest, medivac boost, swarm host, or whatever, this is for you:
Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/8704740456 QUOTE Hello everyone~ We're currently thinking of trying out a couple changes just on a balance test map in a couple weeks or so. We're not looking to do any major changes because the game is in a fairly solid state but just wanted to give a heads up on our current thinking in order to get your feedback. Main thing we're hoping to address soon is the ling/muta strategy in ZvZ. We heard your feedback on changes such as Hydralisk AA damage increase, but we'd like to go smaller in changes if possible. For example, if we increase the +bio damage on Spore Crawlers, it would only affect the ZvZ matchup which is a very small change even if we go big on the +bio damage value. The hope here is to have more Infestors come into play in the mass Muta on Muta battles and/or bring the fight more so to the ground because it'll be more easily possible to stay on the ground due to less resources on defense needed to fend off Mutalisk attacks. Of course ZvZ or any other matchup can change completely in the next weeks, but as of now we think this is the biggest issue in HotS. A few other things we're thinking on but are really not even close to final on are: 1. Oracle movement speed increase To really reward high skilled usage of Oracles. Even when air units are in play, it could be possible for the highest end players to perfectly use Oracles without losing them. 2. Burrow cost and/or research time down Towards the beginning of HotS, early burrow attacks showed some decent potential but we never see it anymore. We thought this variety in opening especially on the Zerg that usually play a defensive early game was cool. So we're wondering how early game Zerg can evolve if we made early game attacks using burrow more effective. As always, nothing is final at this point, but just wanted to give an update on our current thoughts. Please let us know what you think and as always in a live game, we will definitely take our time to evaluate everything before making any moves. -David Kim TLDR: The SC2HotS balance team is only looking to make changes concerning the ZvZ matchup. Possible changes will be +bio damage on Spore Crawlers and a tweak to encourage Infestor use. And of course, NOTHING IS FINAL UNTIL AN ACTUAL BALANCE PATCH IS ROLLED OUT. My comments? Blizzard has finally learned its lesson to not make knee-jerk balance changes. And ZvZ will be quite fun now! EDIT: Props to Blizzard for commenting that "the game is in a fairly solid state". Let the QQ-ing continue. LOL This post has been edited by EnTaroAdun23: Apr 23 2013, 10:46 PM |
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Apr 23 2013, 11:30 PM
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Senior Member
5,369 posts Joined: Jan 2007 From: KL Malaysia
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QUOTE(EnTaroAdun23 @ Apr 23 2013, 10:41 PM) Let the QQ-ing continue. LOL i'll just pray more on the 66.6% |
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Apr 25 2013, 11:44 AM
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Senior Member
654 posts Joined: May 2011 From: SOVIET SARAWAK
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Burrow research decrease ??? Pro and casual players never upgrade burrow always .. sometimes never .. thats some changes they made ..
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Apr 25 2013, 11:53 AM
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Junior Member
140 posts Joined: Jan 2012
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QUOTE(TruthHurts @ Apr 25 2013, 11:44 AM) Burrow research decrease ??? Pro and casual players never upgrade burrow always .. sometimes never .. thats some changes they made .. If you read it again, Blizz has NOT made any changes, but are contemplating on it. |
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Apr 25 2013, 12:30 PM
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Senior Member
654 posts Joined: May 2011 From: SOVIET SARAWAK
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Meaning going to .. its David Kim show anyway.
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May 29 2013, 01:37 AM
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Senior Member
503 posts Joined: Jan 2005
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QUOTE What we'd like to first try is Warp Prisms starting off with the upgraded speed and getting rid of the speed upgrade. This will encourage Protoss to be more aggressive throughout the game from a much earlier point in time. We'd like to see what this change does and also would like to make sure it doesn't buff the all in rushes too much. Of course if this feels like a good direction after testing but feels like too big of a buff, we can also try a slightly increased movement speed on the unit while keeping the upgraded speed the same. http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7526883653#1 |
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May 29 2013, 11:47 AM
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Junior Member
140 posts Joined: Jan 2012
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I'm not liking this possible change so much.
Warp prisms are already feature-packed: it's both a mobile transport and a mobile pylon, so technically it already "carries" so much, only limited by the number of warpgates you have available. Add this speed buff makes it even better. However, comments on the TL thread regarding this possible change say that buffing is better than nerfing, and I guess I'm all for that. |
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