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 Your thoughts on the next HOTS patch, ..what should they nerf and buff?

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EnTaroAdun23
post Mar 21 2013, 05:16 PM

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QUOTE(hazairi @ Mar 21 2013, 01:28 PM)
Hi guys,

I really do think widow mine is OP. Now, doing muta harrass or lings run-by is almost impossible if the Terran is expert in using widow mines.

When they are going offensive, they can put mines, while Zerg wanna attack they fall back and the mines will do it's job.. Sigh..

Just remove this unit Blizzard.. tongue.gif
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Please watch the VODs of how ST_Life beat KT_Flash in the just-concluded MLG HotS Tournament. Flash had tons of mines around, but Life's lings took little to no damage from them. If you attack-move your units over them widow mines, then you're doing it wrong.

There's also a thread in TeamLiquid where forumers discuss the mathematics involved in the design and workings of the widow mine. A must-read.

On another note, I've been reading that SkyToss is just too strong. However, a recent Blizzard post (I can't remember if it's by David Kim) says that it's too early to patch stuff as the game hasn't been figured out yet, and that Blizzard is seeing very creative ways how one race combats the other.

I also remember watching IdrA during the HotS Beta where he used Vipers, Swarm Hosts and Hydras vs Skytoss. It was a long game, but IdrA won.
EnTaroAdun23
post Mar 21 2013, 06:11 PM

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QUOTE(hazairi @ Mar 21 2013, 05:42 PM)
Thanks bro! I'll study on that! It's just that now since the widow mines, Zerg has to do more micro. Gone are the days for easy ling run-bys and muta harass... sad.gif
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In one of my posts in one of the other threads, I've said that the WoL Terran is underpowered. Widow mines kinda balanced it out in HotS.

Yes, gone are the days of attack-moving your lings towards the Terran front line, which is the Swarm-iest thing about the Zerg. This time, you can still swarm your army towards the front line, but you have to do so intelligently.

So it's actually Blizzard making ZvT better by taking out the Zerg mentality of:

"Bah, I lost my forces, but I could still create more and attack the Terran while he's still waiting for reinforcements!"

..and changing it to:

"If I 1-A into this, I'm going to lose my army, while the Terran doesn't lose his, so I'll be at a disadvantage when he attacks back".
EnTaroAdun23
post Mar 21 2013, 06:40 PM

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Nope, you can't anymore.

We're Zerg. And we are a reactionary race. We scout and adapt.

You just have to figure things out.

Who said StarCraft was easy?
EnTaroAdun23
post Apr 10 2013, 07:21 PM

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I still stand by my comment that nothing has to be changed in HotS.

I'm very happy that the skill ceiling has been raised by A LOT. Gone are the days when Gold players could beat Masters (yep, the happiest moment in my SC2 life).

Let me leave a quote from a random Redditor who commented on Artosis' Tumblr post. It was a long post, but the last paragraph said it all:

"Basically the basis of strategy comes down to 2 things: Your understanding and your execution. Understanding is limited by your execution. Execution is limited by your understanding. HotS has increased the complexity of the game and the increased burden and decisions have made the game generally more rewarding for those players (who) have a higher understanding and execution".

Edit: My apologies, the quote wasn't from Artosis, but from a random Redditor who commented on Artosis' Tumblr post.

Here's Artosis post regarding skill ceiling:

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


This post has been edited by EnTaroAdun23: Apr 11 2013, 11:51 AM
EnTaroAdun23
post Apr 11 2013, 04:31 PM

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Like my previous post said:

Understanding is limited by your execution. Execution is limited by your understanding.
EnTaroAdun23
post Apr 11 2013, 11:44 PM

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QUOTE(Jerry416 @ Apr 11 2013, 10:09 PM)
Still very rare seeing vipers dragging ultralisks up on the hill to ambush. Not worthwhile perhaps?
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From Liquipedia:

QUOTE
Vipers see less use in Zerg vs. Zerg than in the other two match-ups. The speed of Zerg units, especially on creep, makes it easy to move out of Blinding Cloud. In addition, the relative inexpensiveness of the units most commonly used in the match-up (notably Zerglings, Mutalisks, and Roaches) makes them poor targets for Abduct.

Regardless, Vipers can still be of some limited use against large groups of Roaches and Hydralisks, utilizing Blinding Cloud to force them to give up key positions so that an attacking player can secure a better concave, or force the opposing army back into a choke point.


In my opinion, it's not worth the cost and time.

Two Vipers cost 200/400/6 (minerals/gas/supply) +200/150 for Hive. Comparing it to 3 infestors (300/450/6) +150/150 for pathogen glands and how much earlier you could get infestors compared to vipers.

Also, except for its Blinding Cloud, it wouldn't do much against mass roach/hydra as opposed to throwing fungal growths from the infestors.

And if your opponent goes Mutalisks, teching to Hive (and ultimately to Vipers) will be a big waste.
EnTaroAdun23
post Apr 12 2013, 11:02 AM

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QUOTE(TruthHurts @ Apr 12 2013, 06:31 AM)
I really have a crazy idea using viper to beat Airtoss but need to test this theory.. hmm.gif I really wish they just lower the gas to 150 since I don't see much use for them other than grabbing units.
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On his stream during the Beta, IdrA beat Skytoss using Hydra/Viper/Swarmhost. He was grabbing the Tempests with his Vipers towards the hold-position Hydralisks positioned behind the Swarmhosts. This whittled down the Skytoss force, forcing the toss to go Stalker. But IdrA was already morphing his Corruptors to Broodlords.

That, if I remember correctly, was a 40 minute game.
EnTaroAdun23
post Apr 12 2013, 12:31 PM

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QUOTE(TruthHurts @ Apr 12 2013, 11:29 AM)
But the problem is the food is capped hard depend on how many units you use. I was thinking like more solid movable Zerg spore. LOTSssss of spore cannon and viper fishing.
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Yep, good point. Vipers are 3 supply. So are Swarm Hosts. Then you have Infestors, Hydralisks at 2 supply each.

Spore front line is good, so make sure you have creep tumors ready to spread forward. I suddenly realized, with a ton of spores, if the Toss tech-switches to gateway units, you're done for.

Goodness, I love this game. Makes me think a lot.
EnTaroAdun23
post Apr 15 2013, 04:42 PM

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QUOTE(shirley_andy @ Apr 15 2013, 04:18 PM)
just curious, since we have gaming gears with programmable buttons, is it allowed to set macro key(1 key performing more than 1 button) when playing the game?

I tried googling around and can't find any absolute answer, some says yes in ladder but no in tourney, some say no in all games, etc.

just wanna seek clarification as still new to the game. thanks
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www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=146760

If you wanna waste a copy of WoL/HotS to test it out, be my guest.
EnTaroAdun23
post Apr 15 2013, 07:55 PM

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QUOTE(hazairi @ Apr 15 2013, 05:10 PM)
And as HOTS is just a newborn baby, I don't think it's well balanced yet. There are many possibility that is yet to explore.
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Exactly! Why balance something that is yet to be explored? Why balance the game based on possibility? You simply can't do that. Explore! Make the possibility reality first, THEN you balance.

Yes I remember WoL completely. Blizz made kneejerk "balance fixes" that were balanced around horribly small maps (think Xel'naga Caverns).

I note you think the game isn't well balanced. That's your personal opinion. Wanna know my opinion? Increase Siege Tank range. Remove Mothership Core and Mothership. Remove Warp Gate Tech. Buff gateway units. Make Psi Storm standard with all HTs. Increase supply cap to 300. Everything else as is. BUT! Blizz won't release a balance patch based on your opinion or my opinion alone.

You may ask, "what about the opinions of GMs and the pros?". You wanna know why Blizz hasn't released a patch yet? It's not because Blizz doesn't care about their players. They just don't want history to repeat itself and roll out kneejerk reactions/patches.

Blizz will not nerf widow mines. Not yet at least. I've read the statistics too. Master Terrans winning against Master Zergs 59% of the time if they use any amount of widow mines. It may be an anomaly but I don't think it's something for Blizzard to panic about. Why? Because there is this reality that ST_Life beat Flash (and his widow mines) in 6 games to win MLG Dallas. If he can do it, why can't we?

Don't blame the game because of your opinion that it isn't balanced or because your APM doesn't allow you to do amazing stuff like the pros. It's not the game's fault that you have hit your skill cap. Level up. Learn something new. Watch Day9. Practice against better players.

Again:

"Basically the basis of strategy comes down to 2 things: Your understanding and your execution. Understanding is limited by your execution. Execution is limited by your understanding. HotS has increased the complexity of the game and the increased burden and decisions have made the game generally more rewarding for those players (who) have a higher understanding and execution".

There's more to the game than just balance whining.

Just my 2 cents.
EnTaroAdun23
post Apr 22 2013, 03:47 PM

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QUOTE(jeffvip @ Apr 22 2013, 12:53 PM)
Sounds to me like SCII player are spoiled kids. I believe every problem, there are a solutions. No need to raise up hand to tell teacher everytime.
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True that, bro. Kids today just whine instead of thinking of ways to solve the problem.

QUOTE(jeffvip @ Apr 22 2013, 12:53 PM)
BW aren't a balance game. If no creativity, Protoss will just outright crush Terran and Zerg. But this is not the case. Although widely regard Terran is the weakest and the hardest race to play but so many bonjwa actually comes from Terran. Zerg is consider a dead race for few years before Saviour comes and reinvent the whole game style of Zerg, as a result Zerg player almost dominate the SC scene.
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Yep, Savior totally dominated in his glory days. He was totally overpowered. Until Bisu figured him out, and 3-0'ed him in the MSL Finals. I have read TL's Final Edit articles on Savior lots of times and watched his videos, and they still amaze me. And I am equally amazed at how Bisu beat him. What an innovator.

That's what we wanna see. Players figuring out stuff. Not "ZOMG <insert unit> is so OP, just remove this from the game lol"

QUOTE(jeffvip @ Apr 22 2013, 12:53 PM)
There are only about 20% of player played Terran in BW bcos of this imbalances but the BW survive and produces one of the most glory chapter of e-sport(Flash vs Jaedong vs Bisu). I believe HotS of SC2 have this potential. Let this imbalances provide entertainment for us.
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The last balance patch released for SCBW was in 2001. And everyone thought, crap, this shit is imbalanced. Blizzard should fix it. But they didn't. What fixed the pro scene was the community itself. Nope, they didn't try to balance the game themselves. They made tournament maps that balanced the game. Wide open maps with an easy natural and somewhat defendable 3rd. But most importantly, the pros did their homework too. They analyzed builds, they analyzed opponent's builds, then they modified their own builds to hit vulnerable timings. They worked to get better. No doubt they got angry and shit on Blizzard for giving the other race friggin' overpowered units, but they still worked. Their mentality was such that, "I'm going to learn this with the expectation that Blizzard will not release another balance patch". And holy crap, did that work out well for everyone. They won, the fans exulted, treating all of us to beautiful games. The losers, nope, they didn't whine, they learned, analyzed this new build, and made it their own.

Nada is a prime example. What a force back then, lost all of it (after personal tragedy), then came back to become a champion.
EnTaroAdun23
post Apr 22 2013, 05:19 PM

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QUOTE(jeffvip @ Apr 22 2013, 04:40 PM)
Agreed. P unit cannot move in a small pack. P was so fun to watch in BW. But P games in SC2 sux, no matter what race P against with. Some fundamental problem is wrong with SC2 P. I just don't understand. They can win game or lose game with just small margin in all matchups.

Luckily the new HotS TvZ are here to save E-sports.
Stop it, I miss BW games d.  cry.gif

TBLS play is the pinnacle of BW. Every game of them is amazing.  rclxms.gif
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TBLS were amazing, but for me, every pro game of BW was amazing:

- TvTs featuring Leta, Flash, Sea, Hiya and Fantasy
- PvX play from Rain, Stats, JangBi, Best, Stork
- ZvZs from Roro, Zero, Hydra, HoeJJa

Add the flashes of brilliance from the lesser known players, and the old-school games of Nada, July, oov, Boxer, Savior, Kingdom, Nal-ra, Yellow........

Man, those were the days.
EnTaroAdun23
post Apr 23 2013, 10:41 PM

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To those hoping for a balance update on widow mines, tempest, medivac boost, swarm host, or whatever, this is for you:

Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/8704740456

QUOTE
Hello everyone~

We're currently thinking of trying out a couple changes just on a balance test map in a couple weeks or so. We're not looking to do any major changes because the game is in a fairly solid state but just wanted to give a heads up on our current thinking in order to get your feedback.

Main thing we're hoping to address soon is the ling/muta strategy in ZvZ. We heard your feedback on changes such as Hydralisk AA damage increase, but we'd like to go smaller in changes if possible. For example, if we increase the +bio damage on Spore Crawlers, it would only affect the ZvZ matchup which is a very small change even if we go big on the +bio damage value.

The hope here is to have more Infestors come into play in the mass Muta on Muta battles and/or bring the fight more so to the ground because it'll be more easily possible to stay on the ground due to less resources on defense needed to fend off Mutalisk attacks.

Of course ZvZ or any other matchup can change completely in the next weeks, but as of now we think this is the biggest issue in HotS.

A few other things we're thinking on but are really not even close to final on are:
1. Oracle movement speed increase
To really reward high skilled usage of Oracles. Even when air units are in play, it could be possible for the highest end players to perfectly use Oracles without losing them.

2. Burrow cost and/or research time down
Towards the beginning of HotS, early burrow attacks showed some decent potential but we never see it anymore. We thought this variety in opening especially on the Zerg that usually play a defensive early game was cool. So we're wondering how early game Zerg can evolve if we made early game attacks using burrow more effective.

As always, nothing is final at this point, but just wanted to give an update on our current thoughts. Please let us know what you think and as always in a live game, we will definitely take our time to evaluate everything before making any moves.

-David Kim


TLDR: The SC2HotS balance team is only looking to make changes concerning the ZvZ matchup. Possible changes will be +bio damage on Spore Crawlers and a tweak to encourage Infestor use. And of course, NOTHING IS FINAL UNTIL AN ACTUAL BALANCE PATCH IS ROLLED OUT.

My comments? Blizzard has finally learned its lesson to not make knee-jerk balance changes. And ZvZ will be quite fun now!

EDIT: Props to Blizzard for commenting that "the game is in a fairly solid state". Let the QQ-ing continue. LOL

This post has been edited by EnTaroAdun23: Apr 23 2013, 10:46 PM
EnTaroAdun23
post Apr 25 2013, 11:53 AM

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QUOTE(TruthHurts @ Apr 25 2013, 11:44 AM)
Burrow research decrease ??? Pro and casual players never upgrade burrow always .. sometimes never .. thats some changes they made ..
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If you read it again, Blizz has NOT made any changes, but are contemplating on it.
EnTaroAdun23
post May 29 2013, 11:47 AM

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I'm not liking this possible change so much.

Warp prisms are already feature-packed: it's both a mobile transport and a mobile pylon, so technically it already "carries" so much, only limited by the number of warpgates you have available. Add this speed buff makes it even better.

However, comments on the TL thread regarding this possible change say that buffing is better than nerfing, and I guess I'm all for that.

 

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