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 bulk cut? or lean bulk, which one should i follow

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alien9
post Dec 24 2012, 02:40 AM

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Ectomorph, mesomoprh, ecto-meso doesn't have any significant impact on how you should be dieting.

Sure, you are skinny previously and obviously you are happy that you've gained 9kg but how much from that 9 kg is fat and how much is muscle?

I have a cousin who aimed for 80kg bodyweight since he is skinny. Yes, he does managed to get to that weight but all of them are fat. That is not a good body to have.

Right now the only question that you need to ask is that, do you have enough muscle? Does all that 9 kg is all fat? Because if it is all fat, then if you enter the cutting phase, you'll lose all that 9 kg.
alien9
post Dec 25 2012, 10:29 AM

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QUOTE(pleowcw @ Dec 25 2012, 07:59 AM)
hi kenny,
no it will not take that long. just eat 5000-6000 calories a day and don't worry about bf% for 2-3 months.
you will be in the sweet spot where u will see all ur lift numbers going up 100-200 lbs at the minimal (squat, deadlift, press, bench).
what u will gain is probably 60% muscle and 40% fat.
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site...ct#.UNjrv28p98E

after u hit 85-90kg only then u cut.

cuttting is easy anyway, it is the gaining muscle and strength part that is difficult.

http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/steel_odyssey
http://www.basbarbell.com/
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If Kenny had a 2500 kcal TDEE, his optimal calorie intake should be at 3000 kcal (max at 20% increase. Going further than that will cause a lot of accumulated bodyfat. Yeah, don't worry about the bf? What if he managed to gain 10 kg and 7kg of that is fat? When he is in cutting phase, all that 7kg will lose and he'll back at his original weight + a little bit of muscle mass he can save from cutting phase.

And NO. Extreme calorie intake will only lead to fat increase. Muscle mass and calorie intake has diminishing effect.
alien9
post Dec 25 2012, 04:08 PM

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QUOTE(pleowcw @ Dec 25 2012, 03:55 PM)
hi alien,
1. first of all, kenny is massively underweight to begin with. he gotta add some weight fast. 5000-6000 calories/day is perfectly achievable, real life wise or medically speaking, and had been documented pretty well. if the calories surplus is just 300-500 calories/day, it will probably takes him 3-5 years (didn't do the math) to get to his end destination.
2. if kenny can lift big while ingesting 5000-6000 calories/day, it will put enough stress on his body and force his body to grow some serious muscle quick. 60%/40% muscle/fat growth is perfectly achievable.
3. cutting is the easy part. even using ur worst-cast number where 7kg out of the 10kg weight increase is fat. it is easy to get rid of that 7kg, but do u have any idea how hard it is to add 3kg of lean muscle? u see a lot of people in the gym everywehre, doing abs, bicep curl and other fancy shits day-in-day-out, without the slightest increase of muscle all the time, all the time.

read the novice effect article by mark rippetoe. the transformation is simply amazing!

paulthebug
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Nope. Even with beginner gains, the most muscle they can get naturally is 30 lbs for within a 3-5 years of training (Quoted from Will Brink).

Even with Kenny's underweight problem, consuming 100% extra calorie intake wouldn't make him gain more muscle faster. You know there is diminishing effect on calorie with muscle. So, why bother eating a lot when 7 kg out of 10 kg is fat mass and will be lost during cutting phase? Why don't he take it slow?

Sure, eating a lot of food can make you lift heavy weight but that is not the only factor that can increase your lifting poundage. So, by your logic, by eating 5000-6000 kcal a day, one can easily increase his compound lift by 100-200 lbs minimal within how long? How about form? How about periodization? How about rest period? How about max effort, dynamic effort, speed work? How about genetic? How about human mechanical? That doesn't count?

Bodybuilding is a marathon, not a sprint.

This post has been edited by alien9: Dec 25 2012, 04:08 PM
alien9
post Dec 26 2012, 01:25 AM

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QUOTE(kennyy90 @ Dec 25 2012, 09:27 PM)
chill guys, i'm sure there isnt a perfect method in bulking, i probably need to find out which one can my body adapt to the best.
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Sure, there isn't the perfect method but some method is much better than other. WHy don't you google or find out about clean bulk (my method) vs dirty bulk vs extreme dirty bulk (there isn't none but when you consume 100% extra calorie than you should just to bulk, i guess that would considered extreme).

Few bodybuilders who have their own VLOG for example Marc Lobliner (Ex-Ceo/Owner of Scivation), Chris Jones (PoG), Layne Norton PhD, Matt Ogus advocate clean bulk for their bulking phase. These people need to increase their muscle mass for competition.

Sure, you aren't going to compete anytime soon. Heck, you just want to gain weight am I right? But do you want to turn from skinny -> skinny fat -> fat? Avoid dirty bulk by all means.
alien9
post Dec 26 2012, 02:03 PM

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QUOTE(pleowcw @ Dec 26 2012, 01:26 PM)
bro, u must be an academic in real life, so knowledgeable...  rclxub.gif
simpleton like me only know simple things, like for skinny fat newbie,
whatever u eat & drink (be it nasi lemak, ramli burger, mee goreng, boneless chicken breast, what have you), double it;
whatever u lift, at least triple it.  whistling.gif

eat like a badass, train like a badass...

again, what is there to lose if it doesn't work? just 2 months...

merry christmas and happy new year.
*
That called science. You think bodybuilding is just a matter of eat badass train badass no pain no gain? If that so, there wouldn't be people who got PhD in nutrition, in human mechanical just for the sake of bodybuilding.

Advices that comes without any solid facts isn't a good advice. Well, have it your way. If you want to be a simpleton, be it. Don't make others join you.

Happy Holiday.

This post has been edited by alien9: Dec 26 2012, 02:06 PM
alien9
post Dec 26 2012, 05:05 PM

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QUOTE(pleowcw @ Dec 26 2012, 04:24 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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So the best advice that a 20 years old powerlifter can give to a newb hardgainer is "eat 5000kcal - 6000kcal and you'll sure grow big"?

Sure, you need calorie surplus to grow but 3000 kcal extra per day? That's outrageous.

Sure you need to train hard and lift heavy weight and you need to eat in order to lift more. But how sure you are that from that excess 3000kcal, 60% will go to muscle and 40% will go to fat? And you've been keep on saying about the novice effect. Are you still having that novice effect? Can the novice effect make you gain 20kg muscle?

This is out of the topic but I do want to know how much is your bench/squat/deadlift poundage since you said that all the name above that I mention earlier use the Pseudo-science method. Just give these 3 numbers.


Added on December 26, 2012, 5:14 pm"Generally I eat 7 - 8 meals per day and try to get approximately 500 grams of protein, 400 - 500 grams of carbs, and approximately 100 grams of fat". These macronutrition value is total up to 4900 kcal. Do you know who said it?

user posted image

I guess you are a powerlifter should know him.

This post has been edited by alien9: Dec 26 2012, 05:14 PM
alien9
post Dec 27 2012, 03:34 PM

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@pleowcw

Don't you think that within that 20 years of experience, you should have at least more poundage on all that lifts considering that you are advocating starting strength?

Well, my best poundage on squat is 250 lbs 5x5 and deadlift at 260lbs x 2. That considering I started with cutting phase (eat never more than 2500 kcal) cause of trying to lose weight and I just started lifting for 1 1/2 years. Not as much as your poundage but I've made my mistake by not knowing any nutrition part for the first 9 months (how do I know I eat less than 2500 kcal? I'm losing weight and my current TDEE is 2500 kcal).

You have been in a trial and error state for such a long time. You said that you once used the normal counting TDEE, add 20% calorie stuff but you failed. Is it the fail on you or the fail on the method? I guess it is fail on you because tunertube here said that he eat 3000 kcal a day for his body. My friend who deadlift 150 kg for 5x5 (gym buddy, started prolly the same time with me except he is lean) doesn't eat more than 3200 kcal. Most of the forumer here didn't eat that much calorie that you advocate via the starting strength routine.

You said that cutting is easier to do for you. Can I know your method? Is it just eat 1000 kcal a day kind of method? I guess so right?

QUOTE(pleowcw @ Dec 27 2012, 01:45 PM)
he will need to have excess calories of 7700 just to grow one more 1kg (regardless of muscle or fat). if you do the maths you will see that he really needs that much more. also remember, during the bulking stage, we always shoot past the ideal weight target, only then we start to cut. The six packs can come later.

*
Here's the thing. You method of extreme dirty bulk add a lot of fat compared to muscle mass. So, bulk until exceed the ideal weight and then cut again for the six pack right? So what if kenny's ideal weight is 90 kg and he managed to gain 100 kg (addition of 28 kg) so he cut down. Do you think that within that 28 kg, how much is fat considering he is eating 100% excess calorie within 4-5 months let say?

p/s: at 182cm, 72 kg is considered normal, not skinny.

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


This post has been edited by alien9: Dec 27 2012, 03:39 PM
alien9
post Dec 27 2012, 04:52 PM

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QUOTE(pleowcw @ Dec 27 2012, 04:39 PM)
bro,
i found out about starting strength method in late 08, me think. before that i was fooling with all sort of stupid stuffs, circuit this, hiit that, isolation whatever. but no real, tangible progress.
the thing about the ss method is 2 folds:
first, u progressively increase the tonnage and note it down honestly. u can tell tangible increase in strength relative to ur body frame. it will force ur body to adapt by increase or at least retain whatever muscle u have (depending on ur starting point as skinny or fat).

why only compound movements? because if u take care of ur big muscle groups, the rest will follow. obviously u probably will not have bigger/ more define arms than those who specially train for it. but again, that is beyond the scope of this thread.

second, the makan part is only for bulking stage, that is the best stage for explosive real increase in strength and muscle mass. and it can happen fast. Not another 3 or 5 years. it is only the first stage. of course u gotta cut later lah, but again, cutting is beyond the scope of this thread. if u open another thread on cutting, i will try to answer u there, i don't wanna hijack's kenny's post. note that i also did not touch on makan plan for fat guy because it is not relevant to the thread.

i still don't quite understand why u arbitrarily define this a clean or dirty bulking? of course, don't try to get more calories from drinking coca-cola lah. eat more protein lah. common sense why... all i was saying is that don't be so strict on urself that u cut out all the fun out of life.

Don't you think that within that 20 years of experience, you should have at least more poundage on all that lifts considering that you are advocating starting strength?
not fair!!! cry.gif i blame my mama and papa for my small frame!!!!!!!!!!!!!
joke aside, obviously there is limitation on how much one can squat or whatever, otherwise all of us will be squatting like 1000kg right? and obviously i had stop and reset multiple times. for a guy like me who just start over again, a tangible, achievable 3 months target is: deadlift 3x bw, squat 2.5x, bench 2x, overhead press 1.5x (maybe a bit stretch, but we always aim high right?) . don't let anyone else tell u can't do it otherwise! only then i will add snatch and clean & jerk into my program.
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2008 till 2012 and that's your poundage from SS with extreme calorie intake. I started with stronglifts 5x5, I do advocate compound exercises to beginners but I don't like the way how you just putting the 5000-6000 kcal calorie intake and strongly believe that by that you can simply add extra 100 lbs to your lift poundage.

Sure, like what mikehuan said, neither of us is wrong, it is just a matter of how we bulk but although dirty bulk is a method but excess of 100% calorie intake? Just like what I said, it is outrageous and -Dan said it is too much. Like I said earlier, kenny want to grow some mass. he doesn't want to be from skinny ->fat (fat with muscle). If one had to eat a lot to gain muscle mass and lots of fat but in the end need to cut a lot fat mass, what's the purpose.

Once again, both of the method is the available method of bulking but the idea of eating excessive amount of calorie in order to pack muscle mass is a bad idea FOR kenny. Do remember, the advice is FOR kenny.

QUOTE(pleowcw @ Dec 27 2012, 04:39 PM)
i still don't quite understand why u arbitrarily define this a clean or dirty bulking? of course, don't try to get more calories from drinking coca-cola lah. eat more protein lah. common sense why... all i was saying is that don't be so strict on urself that u cut out all the fun out of life.

*

Well I guess that is where you confused. The term clean bulk is not mean that you eat all the brown rice, the chicken breast, the no fun food. That is clean diet. Clean bulk is consuming calorie not exceeding 20% of excess of calorie (well by my simple definition). When a person like me who have calorie maintenance of 2500kcal, if I want to bulk cleanly, I will go for the most calorie at 3000kcal. That is clean bulk. Packing muscle mass while trying to keep the amount of fat mass low. Dirty bulk on the other hand is eating as much as you can for the sake of bulking; mostly more than clean bulk 20% calorie surplus.

I can eat clean like brown rice, chicken breast all day long but if I exceed my 3000 kcal calorie limit for clean bulk, I will gain a lot of fat and more muscle than clean bulk.

That is what I'm trying to say. Not the type of food (that would be called the diet) but how you approach bulking phase either clean, dirty or according to your approach extreme dirty).

This post has been edited by alien9: Dec 27 2012, 05:00 PM

 

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