gosh, i have no idea. we've got to ask people who actually HAVE STUDIED both i guess. again, i cant compare architect's with accountant's working environment, coz i've never approached accountants working environment.

i sucked too! well addmath laa. i got P7 for my addmath in SPM. hahhaha.

actually, it's not math that u need. u need logic and deduction. a lot of people mistaken deduction=math. also, u will need to be sufficiently adequate in physics, although in reality we have engineers working for us to solve that problem.

i mean, it's simple laa, if floor's too big, how to support?

get bigger column laa.

but how big?

give it to the engineer to decide!




wahhahahaha

working alongside engineers for some theoretical projects, competitions as well as a few house rennovations allowed me to meet with lots of different kind of civil engineers. for example:

i. we have the usual "u tell me what u need" kind of engineer. just follooooww whatever u say. just gotta luv this kind of people. but the thing is, they're not independent. they really FOLLOW u one, and wait for instructions.

ii. we have super-enthusiastic engineers that not only assist u in construction, but goes further by even suggesting an alternative solution or even a new design entirely! they guy said "ooo dulu aku nak jadi akitek, tapi bapak aku tak bagi..."

iii. old-school engineers. the bunch who wont do anything that they've never done before. if the beam is 400mmx250mm, DONT CHANGE IT! architect's nightmare.

iv. happy go lucky engineers. they do they work, go home, at night call u, go out, yamseng a few rounds, go home, then next day do work with a hangover. makes u wonder "calculation tu betul ke?" hahhahaa.

v. and we have the female engineers, who not only LOOKS good, but produce good stuff too! their spirit of competition in a male dominated world makes them strong, aware, highly motivated, mean spirited and can be vicious, ruthless and egoistic as well. dont stand in their way... they'll run u down!



just personal experience only, from MY perspective. please dont get mixed up for facts...

ofcourselah!


assuming ur target is Part 2 (for practice ofcourse), here are ur choices, not according to any order:


i. study part 1 (UTM, LUCT, USM, UiTM, UM & UIAM). then study part 2 for 2 years in UTM, USM, UiTM or UM. note that these 4 schools are the only accredited schools for part 2.

ii. study pre-part 1 (any diploma or college degrees). then study part 2 for 3 years in UTM, USM, UiTM or UM. (sometimes 4 years depending qualification)

iii. study part 1+2 integrated in a single 5 year degree in UTM. no breaks, 5 years straight!

iv. study part 1 overseas, come back and finish part 2 (2 years) in UTM, USM, UiTM or UM.

that's not A question. those are many questions



actually, UTM have both systems. currently UTM has a full 5 year (no breaks) course for architecture, a compressed previous syllabus that used to span 6 years (3+3), after SPM. with STPM intakes, UTM shortened it into 5 years. due to PAM accreditation constrains, we cant immediately break the course into two. this is primarily bcoz the previous is a diploma+degree, the new one will be degree+degree. so u cant just dissolve the diploma into degree. well it's a procedure thing.



to put things short, the 3+2 system will be implemented if i'm not mistaken next year (2008). so if u managed to grab a place in UTM this year, u'll get to ride architecture for 5 years non-stop! so it's a temporary thing. UTM will follow 3+2 system (similar with USM and UM) soon enough.

advantages of 5 year system: u dont have to worry about ur 2nd degree. it's straight away PAM part 2 baby!

disadvantages of 5 year system: u dont have any breaks. if u fail at final year, u only have ur STPM.



the percentage of 1st year > final year for the 5 year system is 100%. it is usually 60% of ur friends from the same batch will get into degree. for UTM, we have a cut off point at 2.70cgpa. lower than that, u'll need 2 years experience to get in. usually students below 3.00cgpa will have a hard time applying due to most people scoring 3.00 and above.

there is no reservations for 2nd degree or any post graduate degrees. u see, the gvment policy of having bumiputra quota is only applicable to 1st degrees, using intake from matriculation to mask the quota. for 2nd degrees and above, it's all meritocracy.

currently in UTM, the 5th year architecture batch have a chinese majority of about 60-65%.

however, be aware that UTM intakes for 2nd degree gives absolute priority to its ex-students, while allocating about 10-20% outsiders. so if u're applying from abroad, make sure ur grades are good enough to squeeze into the 10-20%.

i. yes, those who do not do well in part 1, can still progress with experience. architecture is a course primarily based on skills, awareness, empathy and experience. we acknowledge that there are different ways of learning. some people learn from examples of others, some learn by making mistakes. either way, all should be able to learn n practice architecture. in the system we're in, we just "favor" the students who learn "from examples of others" (eg: reading books, studying theory, understanding concepts) and not the other (eg: learning by doing, hands on experience etc).

so if u're the kind of guy who learns more during practice than in class, we should give u a chance to advance too! but be aware, 2 years is a minimum. what is required is a log book of works that u've done within those 2 years. some people need more than 4 years to complete a logbook, bcoz of its various requirements.

ii. yes. dean's lister are quite rare in architecture. this is primarily due to the weightage of the design subject. every semester, u take about 14-16 credits. 6 of them is design. others are usually 2 or 3 credits. some are only 1 credit.

imagine if u only scored a B (3.00) for ur design. even if u scored all As (4.00) in all other subjects, u wont be able to score dean's list (3.70).

remember, design is like cooking. even if u use the exact same ingredient with the exact same technique, u wont achieve the same taste. sometimes u get an A, usually B, but most often is C.

iii. yes. USM is 3 years degree + 2 years second degree after STPM.

iv. part 1 holders are "architect's assistant" or "junior architect". we call the N00Bs. :lol:part 2 holders are "architects", and part 3 are "professional architects".

what about them? i'm not sure i understand ur question.

This post has been edited by azarimy: Jan 7 2007, 02:56 AM

u're asking about non-local unis offering architectural degree for part 2? i've listed accredited universities here. check the spoiler in the first post.

taylor's is a local college offering a partner/franchise programme with univ of melbourne. taylor's is considered local college. and yes, anybody studying in taylor's MUST study overseas according to the partner/franchise programme in order to acquire Part 2. using any other path outside taylor's suggested might not land u a Part 2 within 6-7 years after SPM.

to reply to both, i need to elaborate on meritocracy system:

currently, there arent anymore racial quota for IPTAs. but now they use matriculation quota. it is now 50% matrics and 50% STPM. the minimum requirement of both intakes is the same as established in UPU forms.

however, achieving the minimum result doesnt guarantee u will get in. it all depends what u're competing against. if in that same year 200 applicants with 4.00cgpa applied for 100 seats, and u're 3.70, u know u're not gonna get in.

in UTM, we have a simple cut-off point system. we offer 100 places. we rank the all the applicants into a list, which includes they detailed results, co-curricular activities and priority of choices. we short list them to about 400 candidates and interview all of them. after getting the interview results, we then divide them into 3 tiers.

i. the top 100s (50 from matrics, 50 from STPM) for 1st tier. these will be offered a place immediately.

ii. the backup list - usually about 100-150 candidates. these will be kept in the faculty in case any of the top 100 rejected the offer. if one of them did, the person on top of the list will be offered. then the other, and the rest until it goes down to the last person in the backuplist. this list includes those who chose architecture as the number 4 or 5 in the UPU form.

iii. the rejected list - these are those who did not manage to compete with the others, although they fulfill the full requirement.

the backup list is ranked without priority to STPM or matrics. only the first 100 are. so sometimes in the end we might have more STPM than matrics students or vice versa. another thing worth to note:

when u know offer letters have been given out, and u didnt get any, do try to contact the faculty. ur name might be in the backup list. make urself known and that u're absolutely interested in doing architecture. if the dean and head dept agree, they'll give u another interview on the spot. if they like, u'll be moved on top of the backup list.

the reason for this is, we want the empty places filled as soon as possible. although it is not a policy, this is done to ensure students did not miss any classes and opportunities. in architecture specifically, we believe that we should offer people who're really interested, motivated and enthusiastic rather than give top graders who had to do architecture bcoz their parents wanted to.


these replies below are gonna reek with generalization. i'm just going to attempt an overview of my perspective. do not mistaken my opinion as a FACT!


UTM is a school of tradition. its emphasis is to produce specialized designers, strong in both theoretical designs as well as practical measures. UTM's specialization is theoretical & experimental design, CAD, environmental architecture, regional & vernacular architecture, conservation & restoration, and urban design. UTM graduates often see themselves as their own brand of designers rather than architects.

UiTM follows a different template, one that i believe evolved from the american system. they emphasis on what the students want to do, allowing personal developments while concentrating on technical aspects of architecture. UiTM graduates are good all-round architects.

USM specializes in management, housing and planning. they are also quite involved with environmental architecture, conservation & restoration as well as city/regional planning. overall, USM graduates are good managers, and usually have a good grasp in architectural practice as soon as they graduate.

UM is a new school that have already achieved PAM Part 2 accreditation. infact, they are the first school in msia that have received RIBA part 2 accreditation. graduates from UM has the exact same qualification just like graduated from the UK. this is the highest level of certification that could be obtained for an architecture school outside UK. however, the students are relatively new and lacks tradition. UM produce good all-round designers, and they're internationally recognized.

UKM and UPM are relatively new school. even newer than LUCT. UKM is the latest school of architecture amongst the IPTAs. they are still groping around trying to make a stand in malaysian architecture education.

This post has been edited by azarimy: Jan 8 2007, 02:28 AM

UPM and UKM arent accredited with either Part 1 or Part 2. even if u finish ur first degree, in order to obtain Part 2, u will need to join other schools with part 1 at 2nd year level (3rd if u're good), then graduate with part1, then continue for another 2 years for part 2.

seriously? it takes longer. not that i'm against them or anything. everybody's making fuss about how matrics makes people graduate faster, so i just gear all my suggestions towards "fastest possible way to become an architect"




frankly i'm not sure of UM's emphasis of architecture. i know several top people in housing are there, but i havent heard they setup anything yet. however they're THE school of architecture if u wanna involve with famous local architects, bcoz they're based in KL. i have a friend teaching in UM, and once i've asked him the same question. his reply was...

"we can do whatever UTM can do now..."

"waah berlagaaakkk...."

yes. but u will make time by not sleeping much. typically, sleeping time is between 6am - 8am and 8pm - 10pm daily. so u wont miss any EPL, F1, NBA or whatever live telecast there is out there

imagine u're a chef, and u need to make the best dessert ever for a king, and u have 1 week to do it. so u start on ur first day planning out what u wanna do. u came up with a recipe, and decided to try it out. so 2nd day, u start working on the dessert. end of the day, it's done, and u think it's perfect. u showed it to ur tutor. he said it's crappy.

u went back into the kitchen next day. redo everything. showed ur tutor. he said it's a little better, but not suitable for a king.

then u go back and redo again. and again. and again. when it nears submission, u'll be doing it day and night trying for perfection.



at the end of the week, u did ur best, and u dont even know if that's good enough. the king tastes ur dessert and said... "ini macam goreng pisang belakang istana aje...", and ur heart drops.

next semester, same thing all over again. for 5 miserable years.

u already asked that question. check page 13.

well... to put long story short...

UM staff is made up of a lot of ex-UTM lecturers and graduates. in 1995 when they setup the school, it was already geared for RIBA accreditation, not PAM. part of RIBA's requirement is the intakes must be from A-levels/STPM, hence UM immediately have that in mind when they setup the school. UTM only started the new curriculum in 2003, so we have about 3-4 years to go for RIBA accreditation.

but it doesnt really matter to most archi students. PAM's Part 1 & 2 is already recognized as RIBA equivalent. if u have part 1 and u want to continue to further overseas, u can just do so no problem. but if u want to WORK in the UK, that's where it matters.

UTM still have the vast experience, resources and tradition in architecture education. only when the staff joined UM, that isnt something anybody can do about. UM is a new school, so it's easy to implement/apply new stuff. UTM on the other, have too many old schoolers that i just need to get rid off . dont tell anyone!


with government, they start at RM1889 + allowances (about RM300). private sector, depending on the size of company, can start from RM2000 to RM2500. companies other than KL, penang or JB will typically range between RM1600 - RM2200.

within 5 years with good experience and skill, u should be able to earn between RM2500 - RM6000. and 10 years, up to RM8000 typically. Part 3 holders will usually earn between RM5000 to RM13,000 depending on experience and skills. if u're the principle of the office, technically u can just put any number u want. my last boss always take 15% of the fee. if the project is big, then he got big lah. if not, not lah.

fees are generally 10% of entire project cost. a RM100,000 rennovation means RM10k will go to ur office. Rm20mil project means RM2mil for the office. a small office of about 10 people can run 5-6 projects a month.

ofcourse i know saari. he used to be my tutor, my mentor, my boss and now a colleague. he's here in sheffield now, doing a 1 year out-programme for his PhD in sheffield hallam university, studying about british housing system. i used to work in karya budi, which now has shifted near KLCC, not jalan ipoh anymore. he's my first experience of people speaking english in STRONG kelantanese dialect.

hah... good luck being his gf. but look at the brightside, once he graduates, u'll be part of the social elite amongst the professionals . IF u guys managed to stay that long, that is... (jahat aku ni muahahahha!). but to be frank, there's gonna be lots of pressure. i'm talking from experience, and as u can see, other people had similar experiences as well.

we're talking about design here. why it takes so long is because there are a multitude of questions that needs to be answered all at once, and at the same time, u gotta draw WHILE conversing with urself (reasoning and rationalizing). not much math there. i can safely say all u need is form 3 math to survive architecture, nothing more.

in designing, u're multitasking 80% of the time. have u seen somebody designing a logo? okay it usually takes about 10minutes to sketch a logo, and about 20minutes to draw it properly. all along rationalizing what is needed and what not.

in architecture, u'll be rationalizing the ENTIRE building. what size the beam should be? where can i put a column? what material could enhance the sense of serenity in the building? what level would the floor be? how far should i put the bathroom from the kitchen? can a person pass through this corridor? does the fire-regulation allow me to use small window? and so on...

each element or artifact in the building has to be rationalized. assessment is based primarily on the design. ur ability to draw will immediately reflect ur thought process, bcoz if u cant draw (slow), u will spend too much time drawing and not much on thinking. if u think to much, u might not have enough time to draw. and juggling everything back and forth.

what if u couldnt answer ONE question in a series of a thousand. what would u do? sleep on it? wait till tomorrow? try a best-guess solution? ask a friend? quit the course?




the process cycles infinitely until submission day. one attitude architects CANNOT afford to have is "cepat puas hati". u can see these bunch floating down as bottom feeders. and with "cepat puas hati" comes "it's not finish until u submit it".

so that explains why designers dont spend much time outside their circle.

yes, architecture is very stressful. and not just me, i believe a lot of people in this course will agree with me. but its just a matter of managing ur time. the rest will fall into place neatly if u could manage urself.

i doubt there are many people in the WORLD that actually have taken a business + architectural degree. so i'm not sure if we can actually compare these two course objectively. but i know a study that have been done here in sheffield, comparing architecture to civil engineering courses. the initial conclusion is architecture has a different level of stress that will descend on ur shoulders. stress of studying engineering is very similar to the stress handled during SPM/STPM, only a little harder. so i can safely say that for architecture, u might need some time to get used to to the stress.



to me, the toughest part of learning architecture is during 5th year. at this time, u're on the verge of completing ur entire architectural syllabus apart from the design thesis. there is only one project during 5th year, and that is urban design. in this project, u are to handle the development of an entire urban setting, usually a small town like taiping, kampung baru, alor setar and so on. this is actually the first and only project that u will conduct in a group, and believe me, one of the harderst people to work with for a designer is other designers.

at the same time, i was juggling with the student body's post as head of a subcommittee, handling the 14th national architectural workshop, personal life and lots of other things. at the end, my group and i decided that lets just give it up, and start again next semester. we were so determined to do this, and even have proposed the idea to the studiomaster. but he said, "u guys couldnt fail even if u wanted to."

apparently he was so fond of our design idea, he and other panel of assessors have already given us an absolute pass BEFORE the assessment. so eventually it turned out allright, the committee was fun, workshop successful. but the stress really got to me. until today i could still feel it.

group work is divided into several different categories. there are cooperative works, collaborative works as well as competitive works. most of the group works in 5th year architecture takes the form of collaborative and competitive at the same time. most of the time before 5th years only in cooperative form.

in a away, group work occurs throughout the course, but the ultimate form of group work only occurs in 5th year. this is also most friends becomes foes and foes becomes friends, bestfriends stab each other in the back, unusual alliances formed and so on...

i'm sorry, the question's too vague. it's like asking "which tastes better, chicken or duck?", u know what i mean?

perhaps u can specify what u want to know, easier for people to answer...

i dont. as a matter of fact, i dont watch any home deco shows anywhere in the world. it's just not my interest. i'm sure other architects might, but my interest is way off from architecture. for inspiration, i prefer to draw from science and historical documentaries from national geo or disc channel. my wife draws inspiration from travel/holiday shows.

so it depends on individuals.

i wouldnt say they dont earn that much as a canvasing statement. architecture is highly dependent on individual skills. by average, u should be able to earn RM2500 within 2 years of working experience, and that rate increases exponentially the more experience u get. but some people are dumb enough not to change offices in order to get a boost in their salary, so it's their fault.

changing offices can get u an extra RM200-RM300 everytime u change office. but if u're that good, u could easily earn RM4000 within 2 years. i know a friend of mine is already earning RM8000 within 5 years (we graduated in 2001), and that's in a small firm.

becoz this field is highly dependent on ur skills, firms opt not to pay u that much incase u're not that good. but the salary will increase within a year once u exhibit ur qualities.