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Life Sciences The PHARMACY Thread v2

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TSzstan
post Feb 15 2015, 12:29 AM

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QUOTE(iclemyer @ Feb 14 2015, 03:50 PM)
Ahhh I see! yawn.gif So would the cert from Parkville be recognized by the Singapore Pharmacy Council then? >< Just want to know so that it'll help in my decision on whether I would want a credit transfer or not..
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QUOTE(limeuu @ Feb 14 2015, 07:59 PM)
surely that information, which is freely and easily available online at the spc website, can be searched?...

the only additional information is that spore does NOT recognise any offshore degrees awarded by branch campuses.....
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^ what he said
TSzstan
post Feb 15 2015, 11:04 PM

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QUOTE(limeuu @ Feb 15 2015, 03:00 PM)
the two articles in the star shows there are much public misconception about this matter....

when they say it cost more in the clinic, that is because of the consultation fees...with separation, there will still be the doctor's consultation fee, and then the price of the medicine.....

the other misconception is, they think they can walk into any pharmacy and get any medicine...with separation, expect tighter regulation, and the common practice of pharmacies dispensing pom without prescription illegally to have to stop...so they will have to go see a doctor, get a prescription, then return to take the medicine...expect the doctors to demand close control on dispensing of pom....

there is no doubt that separation will increase the cost to patients.....denying it would be like pretending gst will not increase the cost of things....
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consultation fees are generally controlled under regulations...even in private hospitals...doctors can only charge so high.. so the only way doctors can profit is to increase the price of medications.. otherwise technically every gp out there should charge the same fees isn't it? laugh.gif


what kind of cost? time wasted to find another parking (quoted from Dr Jim Loi). laugh.gif medication cost should remain the same if not cheaper (assuming if the doctor just writes the active ingredient for medications instead of specifying brands).
TSzstan
post Feb 16 2015, 12:32 AM

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QUOTE(limeuu @ Feb 16 2015, 12:24 AM)
gps charge very much lower than the regulated fees....and make up for that from the medications profit margins....there are lots of leeway for them to up charges....with separation, they will charge more consultation fees to maintain income....and patients will then have to pay extra for the pharmacist's profit margin....

the transition period will see dual dispensing rights....we will see how the public will prefer.....
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well at this moment the profit margin from drugs are ridiculously low.. pharmacies earn their bread and butter mostly through supplements and other stuff in the shop.. so we shall see how the prices changes after DS biggrin.gif

hopefully the gps will be more honest to break down the prices and list them on the receipt if that's the case laugh.gif
TSzstan
post Feb 24 2015, 07:31 PM

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QUOTE(Decky @ Feb 24 2015, 06:55 PM)
IF there's a DS!

I thought it would be intuitive for Malaysians to want DS, but after gathering some thoughts from my thread in RWI and reading the views offered in TheStar, I realize that there are plenty of misconceptions going around to fuel the anti-separation sentiment.

It's like people generally see this move as an act of benefiting government cronies instead of addressing safety issues. I was accused of fear mongering because I tried to correct a point that someone made about how if doctors really made mistakes, so many people would have doubted the GPs already.

With Doctors constantly writing in to TheStar trying to tell everyone how unreliable the pharmacy profession is and how this is all some government conspiracy, I really don't think DS is coming anytime soon. The rakyat still isn't properly informed about the roles of pharmacists in healthcare and about how drugs work in general.

I just came back from an interview with the malaysian pharmacy board at uni just now though, the professors assured us quite abit about how we don't necessarily need to have DS to make an impact in the healthcare system in Malaysia.
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Most of the doctors (especially GPs who left the hospital line of work decades ago) don't know what pharmacists can offer anyway..they are also unaware of how DS actually works how it may benefit them. The rakyat has poor literacy in health because there is no dispensing separation.. in countries like US and Australia where pharmacists play a huge role in primary care as well as public health, this is where people get information from. nowhere else can u get free medical info just like that.

what professors? DS is not the main issue here.. it's the inducement of the whole medical profession and a need of a UHC. the government can't really afford to subsidise free medications for the people at this current pace for next decade or so.


TSzstan
post Mar 2 2015, 12:34 PM

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QUOTE(Adeline.70 @ Mar 2 2015, 12:04 AM)
Hi, I am an A Levels students that has finished AS and currently studying for A2. I'm interested in Pharmacy but I'm a bit unsure about which option I should take, which is to take a twinning course with Nottingham or IMU, to study in Australia or to study in UK.

The main factor affecting my decision lies in the job prospects in these three countries. Do any of you know whether its harder for foreign graduates to obtain work in Australia or UK? Or is it easier to just come back to Malaysia to get a job(Because of the anti-dispensing separation issue, I would expect getting a job to be quite hard in Malaysia, no?)?

I did look up job listings in Malaysia and Australia and it turns out that there are 700+ jobs for pharmacy degree holders in Australia compared to a measly 70+ in Malaysia. However, I am still unsure whether they would be open to foreign applicants. Is there anybody currently working in UK or AUS that can advise me on this?

P.S. I don't mind working in more rural areas
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It is already very very hard for foreign graduates to get a job in the UK and Australia, not sure how it can get harder. 4 years down the road there will be even more graduates and pay and perks is only going to get lower. not sure what you are looking forward to in UK/Aus for this profession though. and australia has already closed its gates to pharmacist migration. but since you mentioned you don't mind working in more rural areas then perhaps there's still a chance of landing a job.

in malaysia the lack of dispensing separation is the one restricting the availability of jobs. once DS is passed the flood gates of jobs will definitely be opened for the community pharmacy sector. but that's a big IF though. the job listings in Malaysia do not include PRP so it's not an accurate picture. nevertheless there are still about 600 jobless pharmacy graduates at the moment laugh.gif
TSzstan
post Mar 2 2015, 01:58 PM

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QUOTE(limeuu @ Mar 2 2015, 01:00 PM)
there is a surplus of pharmacists in australia....and pharmacy is off the sol...which means you cannot apply for independent skilled migration....however, if you have studied at least 2 years onshore in oz, you are eligible for the graduate visa, which allows you to stay back for up to 2 years...you can try look for jobs, but with with surplus, it may be difficult...but if you are lucky and do get a job, then your employer can sponsor you for a 4 year work visa...but after that, you have to leave....unless you find another way of getting another category of resident visa....

in the uk, they will allow you to complete the 1 year pupilship after graduation, but it may be difficult to get the tier 2 visa to continue working after that....you should be eligible, but that depends on getting a firm job offer, which is difficult to get, as there is also no shortage of pharmacists in uk, and they have to give preference to eu citizens...
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just get married to a local laugh.gif

TSzstan
post Mar 7 2015, 04:11 PM

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QUOTE(Adeline.70 @ Mar 6 2015, 11:34 PM)
For IMU full 4 years local graduates, is it tough to get registered as a pharmacist? Are there limited spots or something like that? I am considering doing 4 years local and then going over to Australia to do my masters so that I can save money (4 years means I will be eligible for the scholarship) as well as eventually finding a job in Australia.

But then, many of the postgraduate entry requirements state that the applicant must be a registered pharmacist, so does that mean that I have to sit for a test first since the pharmacy council only recognise degrees from Australia, apply for registration there and then only I can go for the masters?
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whatever limeuu said & to add on: not to damper your spirits, it's the best to complete your pharmacy degree successfully first before even thinking of doing postgraduate.
TSzstan
post Mar 10 2015, 10:21 AM

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QUOTE(star kk @ Mar 10 2015, 07:41 AM)
which private uni  the best for studying pharmacy course in M'sia? any suggestion ?
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Nottingham and monash
TSzstan
post Mar 11 2015, 09:45 PM

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QUOTE(ricardoizecson @ Mar 11 2015, 08:20 PM)
based on?
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one is a top 10 and another a top 100 uni for pharmacy in the world?
TSzstan
post Mar 11 2015, 11:16 PM

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QUOTE(ricardoizecson @ Mar 11 2015, 10:31 PM)
that is for the main campus. it doesnt reflect the ranking of the sister/branch campus. isnt it?
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you are sitting the same exam paper at the end of the day regardless. if you can do well it means you are on par with the main campus.
TSzstan
post Mar 15 2015, 01:52 PM

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QUOTE(confirm @ Mar 15 2015, 12:42 PM)
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/...b-1227262606406

Any relevance to the separation of prescription in Malaysia ?
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It's separation of DISPENSING and no its not relevant to Malaysia for the time being because we do not have a universal health care plan or insurance.
TSzstan
post Mar 15 2015, 07:39 PM

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Not as ambitious as doctors trying to own their own hospital I guess biggrin.gif nowadays also got many chain clinics.
TSzstan
post Mar 19 2015, 11:26 AM

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QUOTE(veron4best @ Mar 17 2015, 04:21 PM)
Are u familiar with healthcare tourism there? Like demand for a healthcare provider who able to spoke mandarin & English?

As far as I understand, English and Mandarin is hardly spoken by local
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LOL you want to ask about thailand stuff here is the wrong place lah
TSzstan
post Mar 20 2015, 08:38 PM

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Clearing misconceptions on pharmacy practices — Gan Ber Zin

See more at: http://www.themalaymailonline.com/what-you...h.TsMjaLiT.dpuf

MARCH 20 — Kindly allow us to refer to the column “Pharmacists vs doctors: The ongoing debate” published in Malay Mail Online on March 11, 2015. We too agree with the writer that all parties should be working together towards the betterment of healthcare for the rakyat.

Nonetheless given so many letters and articles by doctors associations to the media with several misleading statements and comments, we have little choice but to respond as we need to correct the many misconceptions about the profession.

The allegation by some doctors that dispensing in government hospitals and clinics is not carried out by pharmacists reflects ignorance of the real situation. Since the 1980s, government pharmacy practices have made tremendous progress and have been providing pharmaceutical care to the rakyat. Such allegations are not doing justice to the government pharmacists who have diligently been providing the best pharmaceutical care to the rakyat.

Perhaps these doctors are confused and are referring to some of the 1 Malaysia Clinics where the assistant doctors (medical assistants) prescribe and the assistant pharmacists (dispenser) dispense. Incidentally, both qualified pharmacists and doctors advocate these 1 Malaysia Clinics to be served by qualified professionals.

In government hospitals, pharmacists screen all prescriptions taking into consideration the patient’s individual condition like their health status, lifestyle, and food habits before handing it over for packing by trained pharmacy assistants with diplomas in pharmacy. The packed medicines are then counterchecked and dispensed by another pharmacist.

All new patients are counselled at the Pharmacy Drug Counselling Room and patients who opted for the Medicine by Post programme are provided with follow-up consultation through phone calls by pharmacists.

In the ward pharmacies, medication to in-patients are now packed in the unit-of- use packs and sent to the wards ready to be served by the nurses. Special formulations like Total Parenteral Nutrition and all Cytotoxic drugs for cancer treatment are constituted by pharmacists. Doctors or nurses may ADMINISTER the medicines to the patients but there is a marked distinction between administering the medicines versus dispensing.

Administration of medicines by doctors, nurses or by the caregivers is NOT DISPENSING of medications. Similarly the DELIVERY of medications by post or courier is NOT DISPENSING medications. It is very sad to see doctors that cannot differentiate dispensing from administering or delivery.

Pharmacists have been assigned to the wards since the 1980s and these pharmacists carry out pharmacy ward rounds, check on the medication and provide bedside medication counselling to patients. Pharmacists take part in the Consultant Ward rounds where they are accepted as part and parcel of the health team which also include other healthcare professionals. It is only those doctors who quit government service to set up private practice that suddenly feel that the pharmacist’s services are no longer of use to them or to their patients!

The Drug Information Service (DIS) in the hospital is one of the busiest units within the pharmacy. The clients who are using this DIS are mostly doctors who require all sorts of information related to the use of medicines.

Over the past decades, Medication Therapy Adherence Clinics (MTAC) manned by pharmacists had been set up in most government hospitals. These MTACs operate side by side with the doctors clinics in the hospitals. At these clinics, patients who are on long term medication therapy are referred to the pharmacists manning the MTACs by doctors for the required medication counselling. The MTSCs are very much in demand as the doctors want the pharmacist’s intervention to see better compliance to medications. Better compliance to medication leads to better outcomes.

The government has the facts and figures on the number of fatal prescribing errors like wrong dosages, inappropriate or irrational, excessive prescribing, drug interactions etc. The numbers of the pharmacist’s intervention on these errors prior to dispensing are also documented. These data are collected from all outpatient and inpatient pharmacies as part and parcel of the MOH’s Quality Control Programme to ensure medication safety to patients. These data can only be collected in settings where there are dispensing separation.

Another misconception that some private practitioners would like us to believe is that ALL medicines require a doctor’s prescription and some have accused pharmacists of selling medicines without prescriptions from doctors. To set the record straight, medicines are classified into Groups B, C and others. All Group C medicines like medication for flu and cold, eye-drops, dermatological preparations and several medications for other diseases like diabetes, asthma are dispensed under Group C classification, which is the legal responsibility of pharmacists and these medicines can be dispensed without a doctor’s prescription.

Putting aside the qualification of GPs to dispense, there are two key issues which are related to the quality of the community healthcare that should be improved. Firstly most of the time, the dispensing jobs in GP clinics are not done by the doctors themselves but by unqualified personnel who are not trained in screening prescriptions and are dispensing medication without proper counselling. According to a MOH survey on the use of medicines by Malaysian consumers in 2012, 73 per cent agreed that counselling is necessary to help them in taking their medications.

Secondly, again not questioning the qualification of GPs in this case but outpatient healthcare system as a whole, there is lack of a check and balance mechanism in place to ensure the quality, safety and effective use of medicines. Dispensing should involve clinical review of medicine order. Solitaire in healthcare where the private doctors diagnose, prescribe and supply medications to patients rules out patient safety.

The age-old myth of not enough pharmacists or patient inconvenience are no longer true. There are many pharmacies within walking distance of clinics and 24-hour pharmacies will be available as soon as separation takes place on a “supply and demand” rationale. Increasingly more and more people are seeking the services of pharmacists, in both the government as well as in the community pharmacies.

Community pharmacies are the most accessible and affordable healthcare facilities to the rakyat. Any person can walk in to a pharmacy and see the pharmacist in attendance without the need for an appointment. Moreover, for all the professional services provided pharmacies do not charge or impose any consultation fee. Currently the pharmacists to population ration is 1:2250.

By 2017 we shall reach the WHO recommended norm of 1:2000 in the private sector. The data available in Health Facts 2014 also indicate that there are 6,801 registered private clinics as at December 31, 2013 and 2,800 registered community pharmacists who hold Type A licence as at December 31, 2014. Needless to say, we are not short of pharmacists to serve doctors on a 1:2.4 basis.

The accusation by doctors that pharmacists who conduct blood sugar or blood pressure screening with the home monitoring devices are acting like “doctors” again overlook the fact that many doctors all round the world are encouraging patients to monitor their own health parameters. Are those private practitioners also implying that the patients who are using these home monitoring devices to monitor their health parameters are guilty of "playing doctor"?

There is absolutely nothing wrong for pharmacists to conduct health screening using these home monitoring devices. The paramedical staff are conducting all these measurements in hospitals as part of their work to screen the patients before the patients see their doctor. The pathology lab has also not disallowed pharmacies to carry out such measurements with the home monitoring devices. Pharmacies should be encouraged to assist in the screening and detection of patients with potentially serious problems such as elevated blood sugar and blood pressure. These patients can then be referred to the doctors for management

Last but not least, some private practitioners asked why change when Malaysia has one of the best healthcare system in the world, often quoting a WHO report. The positive ranking that the World Health Organisation (WHO) has given Malaysia is due to our healthcare delivery system by the PUBLIC Sector and not the private sector. To equate this ranking to the doctor dispensing system in our country is indeed very misleading.

In any case, it has been reported that a large majority of the countries with rankings which are better than Malaysia have been practising dispensing separation for a long time. That WHO paper on Policy Perspectives on Medicines has categorically found that “prescribers who earn money from the sale of medicines prescribe more medicines and more expensive medicines, than prescribers who do not.” This report perhaps helps us to understand why so much objections have arisen from our medical practitioners against dispensing separation.

Another WHO report had stated that “Drugs cannot be viewed as ordinary commodities of commerce as they are not like most other commodities. Drugs are not chosen directly by the buyer (the patient), the buyer is not always the responsible payer, and the buyer often has no background or the necessary information to evaluate or make a choice which can have hazardous or even deadly consequences for the patient….”

In conclusion, we ask for clear thinking and open-mindedness in this consideration of dispensing separation. We trust the authorities to advocate best practices in medicines management by pharmacists to reduce medication errors and "over-prescribing" which could well lead to greater patient safety and cost saving.

* Gan Ber Zin is the former chief pharmacist of Hospital Tuanku Ja'afar, Seremban.
TSzstan
post Mar 21 2015, 11:42 AM

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QUOTE(limeuu @ Mar 20 2015, 11:42 PM)
for the record, i am not against separation, done correctly....

there are many flaws in argument in the article, and i will just highlight the above....

patients are asked to monitor their illness, NOT to decide treatment themselves, but as a record of their progress....to present to doctors on follow up, so that treatment can be tailored.....

pharmacists do that, and then make therapeutic decisions and change/start/stop treatments themselves....

a world of difference....pharmacists are not trained, nor licensed to make diagnostic and therapeutic decisions....
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they don't... those you see doing that are the blacksheeps of the profession..
TSzstan
post Mar 21 2015, 11:48 AM

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QUOTE(confirm @ Mar 21 2015, 08:01 AM)
Separation makes sense in hospitals and medical centres due to many doctors in these places and you cannot expect each doctor carrying their own stock of medicine.

Not sure when come to GPs in shophouses....I certainly do not mind paying a little more to my GP instead of finding parking again when i am not well. Many of my family members and friends are not happy with this issue. In any case for more serious medical problems we all opt for hospitals and specialist centres.

Pharmacy can also make mistakes,I was only given half of my prescription 2 weeks ago in a medical centre  and a relative last week was given a wrong translation from English to Chinese.I spotted both the mistakes.

As a consumer,my family would prefer the current arrangement.
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dispensing separation here applies to the GP and CP setting..where primary care is the main focus.of course anybody would go to the hospital for more serious issues.. money isn't the main issue here..it's more about medication safety...

pharmacists are human too and i don't deny that mistakes happen.. but you can't deny that doctors make mistakes as well that's why there's a need of a check and balance.. there's always an accountant and an auditor..
TSzstan
post Mar 21 2015, 05:34 PM

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QUOTE(limeuu @ Mar 21 2015, 04:33 PM)
in which case, there seems to be an inordinate number of black sheeps in this profession...

be that as it may, you will agree that is black sheep practice?...

then how to explain the pharmacist/businessman driven revisions of the pharmacy act contains new laws that enables pharmacists to do exactly this?....
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yes of course it is black sheep practice... pharmacists are only trained to manage minor ailments, the rest are the doctors job... unfortunately i have not seen the act and so do many pharmacists out there in the practice.. but if you do have the proper source then perhaps you can post it here and we could discuss further..

QUOTE(confirm @ Mar 21 2015, 04:57 PM)
auditor and accountant .....auditor (internal and external)only normally comes once a year,so not a good example.

a friend shares his observation....you go to any place in Australia,you will find pharmacies everywhere..the Priceline,Terry White... but one hardly see a clinic.  In Malaysia, one can easily spot a clinic but not so for pharmacy. Pharmacies will make a killing when separation come into force....

True or not...we need to wait and see.
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with dispensing separation the 'audit' is done with every prescription..

then do you know that you can't walk in to a clinic whenever you like it in Australia? every session is by appointment basis. clinics don't really have to put big signboards everywhere advertising their presence..

This post has been edited by zstan: Mar 21 2015, 05:35 PM
TSzstan
post Mar 21 2015, 06:14 PM

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QUOTE(kimio77 @ Mar 21 2015, 05:53 PM)
any U at malaysia have degree in pharmacy? my eldest sister now at pusrawi kolej and want to futher study fpr next level..
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read page 1
TSzstan
post Mar 22 2015, 01:07 PM

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QUOTE
THE media debate on the “Doctors prescribe, Pharmacists dispense” (DPPD) issue is getting hotter as both parties have forwarded their favourable points and information for the attention of the general public.

There are many advantages in upholding the status quo as it has worked to the nation’s benefit, especially for the lower-income groups. There is no need to imitate other countries with different systems.

Doing away with the present practice will lead to more patients heading to the already overcrowded and under-staffed government hospitals where consultation and medication are almost free.

The main drawbacks of delay and waiting time in government hospitals will pale into insignificance if the DPPD system is imposed.

Patients would rather go to the government clinics or hospitals as the inconvenience of consulting a private general practitioner first and then heading to the pharmacy will be unattractive to the public.

The Government can expect a larger number of patients. Both private clinics and pharmacies will lose out in this scenario.

One often observes in Indian movies situations where a family doctor attending to his critically ill patient issues a prescription for certain medicines. Sometimes, by the time the medicine arrives, the patient is already dead!

The present practice is patient-friendly, so stop tampering with it. In the rural and suburban areas where there may be 24-hour clinics but no pharmacies operating after dark or nearby hospitals, it can have serious consequences for the patients.

The cost of healthcare could go up, more so when the Goods and Services Tax (GST) is imposed effective April 1 this year.

Unlike doctors who provide “loose” amounts of medication for patients, pharmacies often sell medicines in a bottle, box, strip or tube.

Presently, doctors are still doing community service unlike pharmacies which are looked upon as a business undertaking. We already have a situation where private hospitals and their doctors and specialists are no longer generally held in favour due to their exorbitant charges and fees.

The image of doctors will suffer if they have to charge more for consultation to make up for the shortfall due to loss of dispensing rights.

Allowing only pharmacies to dispense medication will make healthcare an even more money-making proposition that will dent the image of the Government, especially when affordable healthcare is a duty of the government to the people.

Medical specialists will add more complexity to this issue. Specialist treatment calls for a different range of medicines and drugs which are not needed by the general public. Will the pharmacies stock these costly medicines knowing well there is only a limited clientele for them? Will it not be discriminatory if doctors cannot dispense but specialists are able to?

Pharmacists may form a cartel country-wide and keep their prices high despite the so called “competition”. Like food, healthcare has no substitute; one has to eat or buy medicines no matter what the cost.

Alternative medicines will become more popular as they are cheaper despite risks and problems. Self–medicating too could be an option for some, thereby providing more business to pharmacies.

As it is, private clinics and pharmacies are mostly doing well, depending on the location. A large number of Malaysians are employed by clinics and some thought should be given to them. They are mostly educated to Form 5 level and will find it difficult to get reasonable paying jobs.

There may not be a corresponding increase in the number of employees in the pharmacies.

The present system is good and changes should be avoided until such time when income levels of the middle-class and the lower-income group have increased to an extent where there will not be much complaints.

V. THOMAS

Sungai Buloh



http://www.thestar.com.my/Opinion/Letters/...pensing-system/


laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
TSzstan
post Apr 15 2015, 10:15 AM

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QUOTE(kikochen @ Apr 7 2015, 07:42 PM)
any comment about bpharm in Taylor's? smile.gif
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Not too bad i guess

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