あれは違うと思います。

「malaysian」 は マレーシア人
「malay」はマレー人

I wrote:
"I think that's wrong.
malaysian is mare-shia jin
malay is mare-jin"

in this case when katakana is used, the chouon (長音) or long sound is represented by the -

benkyou <-- note the long sound
the kanji is 勉強 <---- for those of you who are chinese-educated who think they can ace the kanji in a japanese exam without preparation....this is probably the first kanji that you learn that will make you realise that it is not as easy as you think.... *

benkyou is a noun denoting study

the verbal form is benkyou suru　（ 勉強する）, or, to study. This is considered a group III verb IIRC

*apparently the chinese meaning of the kanji is to struggle or something like that

この際は「で」を使ってください。
when you are in a place/location, use 「に」
例：私は今教室にいます。

when you are doing something at a place, use 「で」
例：工場で働いています。

I will try, but no guarantees
besides, there are many ways to read unknown kanji on a PC
http://www.rikai.com is one of them.

my advice to those aspiring to learn a decent amount of japanese:
LOSE THE ROMAJI ASAP.... they don't give you a real feel for the words and there's too much ambiguity when it is used, as firstly, many japanese words already sound the same, and secondly, romanizing the words makes it worse: e.g., when you type "genin", do you really mean げにん「下人」(low-ranked person) ？or げんいん「原因」？(cause/source)?
Furthermore, everyone here seems to be using different romanization systems, which further adds to the confusion: e.g., jo and jyo are actually the same thing. jou and jõ and jo- (conventions for writing long sound) also add to the confusion.

If you take formal classes, most teachers expect you to lose the romaji within the first 2-3 weeks anyway...

Besides, has anyone here tried to sing japanese karaoke using romaji? I can tell you it's a real b*tch to keep up with the words, and your phrasing will go out of sync

stroke order is important if you want to take the kanji test (aka the kanji kentei or nihon kanji nouryoku kentei shiken)

In such a case, don't put too much faith in your chinese friends' ability to write kanji...the stroke order, can be quite different at times and there are subtle differences in stroke length

otherwise, just remembering what a kanji looks like (and sounds) is good enough for the normal nouryoku shiken (but naturally, knowing how to write it is one way )

also, some of my chinese-ed friends tell me that some of younger generation are growing up using only jian ti (simplified PRC style characters) without knowing how to write or read fan ti (complicated/traditional taiwan style characters). I dnno how true this is, but if you had a friend like this it probably won't be of much help either

This post has been edited by oe_kintaro: Dec 4 2005, 03:49 PM

tell me about. I'm still facing the same problem too. A common weakness of the malaysian style of japanese instruction is an over reliance on students' prior knowledge of written mandarin. This puts people like me (I don't know mandarin) at a significant disadvantage.
it just means we have to work harder.



kana: 50 x 2 IINM.
kanji: up to 2000 if you are aiming for lvl 1 (pre-university level)

correction: passing level 1 of the nouryoku shiken means having a proficiency equivalent to a high school graduate

unlike children, we already know our ABCs and how to write english/bahasa. there is a tendency to use that as a reference in learning japanese. unfortunately it too easily becomes a crutch that is debilitating to one's further progress. that is why teachers of the language eschew the usage of romaji.

* do note that my POV is probably only valid for those who are not casual learners. I do acknowledge that some readers aren't really serious about this anyway, so some of the finer points may not apply.

This post has been edited by oe_kintaro: Dec 4 2005, 04:19 PM

Not letter, but syllabary. Each character represents a distinct sound, unlike letters of the alphabet which need to be combined to produce something pronounceable. There are about 50 basic sounds. You need to learn twice: once in hiragana, once in katakana. However, just using hiragana or katakana only is not really encouraged, unless you want the reader to think you are a kindergartener


my neighbour totoro.

No, you don't really need mandarin to pick up japanese. It does help in some ways, but is not a prerequisite.
Kanji is not a big worry at least until JLPT level 2 . For level 4 and 3, you could probably breeze through it with just a little bit kanji. It only gets really tough suddenly when you reach level 2
Generally, anything that's spoken japanese will offer a little something to a mindful and diligent language student. In the case of anime, start with children's anime like "my neighbour totoro" or anime with realistic everyday drama or settings, like Ocean Waves (I can hear the sea).
Ghost in the Shell or Gundam may be more interesting to watch, but at the beginners' level it won't do much for your everyday practical-use japanese

Here's a little bit of self-promotion-cum-community message This one goes out to LYN-ers living in the Penang area: If you're interested in taking classes in Japanese, you can drop by the Penang Japanese Language Society (PJLS) at Jalan Gottlieb for more details, or visit our little recently-launched website here at http://www.pjls.org

The rates are pretty cheap where Japanese classes are concerned. Do take note that we only open after 7pm on weekdays.

wow you must taken the JLPT many many years ago! (at least more that 10 years ago ) The syllabus/test requirements have actually evolved quite significantly compared to the way you describe it. Nowadays, there are 4 levels to the JLPT, the easiest is lvl 4 and the hardest is lvl 1. There is no longer any written or essay test but you have to start learning kanji from the lowest level as well as go through a listening component from level 4 onwards. However the leap from level 2 to 1 is still huge.
Refer to this link

The test is still hard enough to pass even though it is all in an objective format.
By passing level 1 of the JLPT, one is *supposed* to be as technically proficient as a japanese high school student. Though in my personal experience, that is sometimes not the case

Written kanji proficiency is now tested in the Kanji kentei shiken which is even more difficult (even for some Japanese!)

This post has been edited by oe_kintaro: Jan 30 2007, 08:02 AM

did you use some translator software?

the first time I read that, I was not sure what you meant (though it did seem that you were insulting somebody )

---

Added on February 9, 2007, 1:48 pm一言を言わせていただきます：
Previously there was another thread for japanese speakers also but it died a slow and painful death because there was nothing interesting going on. None of the advanced learners would say much since there was nothing worthwhile discussing. If we can't move beyond the "Loookie me speakum japanese" or Hello World phase, this thread may go the same way too. In the 4 years or so that I have been lurking in this forum, I have noticed at least a few fairly advanced users of the language but I have not seen much interaction. In order for such a thread to survive there must first be something worth talking or debating about. As for being "crude" like the Cantonese or Hakka thread (I take your word for it since I don't speak either dialect) I really hope that is not the direction that this thread should take. Perhaps it would be more interesting if we discussed the finer points of the language or life in Japan or cultural interaction with the Japanese people.




This post has been edited by oe_kintaro: Feb 9 2007, 01:48 PM

Since we are on the topic of learning Japanese, perhaps we could talk about our own experiences in learning the language and interacting with native speakers (beyond the class room). It would be interesting to distill the experiences of the more advanced non-native speakers as well as the inputs of native speakers like oneeeleven-san.

Let me start the ball rolling:
In the beginning:
I started learning seriously about 7 years ago, and spent 4-6 hours a week learning at a language night school. Being rather busy with work most of the time, in retrospect I think I was rather lucky to have gotten as far as I have. (I estimate my current proficiency to be somewhere between Lvl2 and Lvl1) I was always late for class and almost never turned in my homework

Turning point:
When we all start to learn a foreign language, there always comes a point when we realize that we could actually *speak* in the language (as opposed to just memorizing stuff in the text book or making up sentences for homework). I think for me, this was when I participated in the national level 弁論大会 about 3-4 years ago and got to know people who spoke japanese well.

Hitting a wall
I was not educated in a chinese medium and as such had immense difficulty with kanji. However this was not an issue until I hit level 2. Even now I still struggle (in part, due to my own laziness)

現状：
I'm busier than ever and never seem to get around to studying seriously for level 1.
At my current level, I'm more or less able to deal with my Japanese counterparts at work. I also began teaching elementary level students late last year, and so there is still much room to grow.

そうですか。。勘違いをしてしまって失礼しました

yeah, once you get to know them better, you'll find that they're just like us, with their own set of socio-economic problems and unpleasant realities. Every country is like that. "The grass is always greener on the other side" hold true where ever one goes. We are all only human. There are some aspects of their culture (e.g. politeness, culture of service, 相手に対する思いやりの心）which I wished Malaysians had, while there are other times I thank my lucky stars that I'm Malaysian

if you are referring to the one highlighted in yellow, it is 9 strokes and most certainly is "kami" or "god"

in this context it is "kamigami" or "gods" because of the extra character after that
神々

the reading is in kun-yomi.
if you use it as on-yomi, it's pronounced as "shin"

that's because the image isn't clear.

This had me stumped for a moment. The translation given is already fairly ok I think
but you could perhaps also say
"If our gods, our hopes, are now merely but scientific phenomena, then is there any reason that our love is not scientific as well?"

The example given is rhetorical in nature but if you use it in everyday life, you might end up sounding rather pompous
"iware" is another way of saying "wake" or reason

when translating from one language to another, there is always a danger that one gets too caught up in the detailed meaning of individual words. My personal opinion is that instead, one should focus on the phrasing and context to better understand what is trying to be communicated.
mono and genshou are not always interchangeable, but in this context they obviously overlap. (mono, in general, has a wider meaning)

Ettiquette is an essential part of Japanese language and culture. Perhaps more than English, the usage of the language clearly delineates the social status of the speaker relative to the listener as well as any 3rd person that they may be talking about. From Day 1 in any basic Japanese language course, we are taught that it is wrong to address oneself as ~~san. The usage of ~~san is reserved only for the listener or a third person.
In order to understand the correct usage of the correct suffix when addressing people or referring to a 3rd party, one must understand the concept of "me ue no hito　目上の人" and "me shita no hito 目下の人"　The first refers to people in a superior social standing relative to oneself, while the latter refers to those who are of a socially inferior standing.
Whether the person you are referring is socially superior again depends on whom you are talking to, whether the listener is from within or without one's social circle. One also has to take into account the occasion as well

Some basic concepts:
1." ~~san" - this is the safest to use in almost all everyday situations that one is likely to encounter. One uses it to refer to everyone else except oneself and people from within one's own social circle

2."~sensei" this is typically used for people that is respected and knowledgable, e.g., teachers, doctors

3. "~kun" this is typically used when you refer to person who are socially inferior (e.g. kids, juniors) or close to you and of equal standing.

4. "~chan" is usually reserved for addressing kids or females of a younger persuasion....and usually used in a less formal occasion

5. "~sama" is usually used for highly exalted persons. The emperor is always 目上 relative to everyone else, and ought to be addressed or refered to as Tenno sama

6. ~buchou/kachou (misc. titles) In the workplace, one ought to address one's superiors by their appropriate position titles

The concept of social circles:
Example:
when you talk to your mother, you refer to her as okaasan "お母さん" because she is
socially superior to you. However when you talk to someone who is not family (i.e. not from your own social circle, e.g. friends/outsiders) you refer to her as 母(haha) when talking to an outsider.

Similarly, you refer to your boss who is director-level as ~~buchou when you talk to him or refer to him when talking to colleagues, but when you talk to outsiders (e.g clients and customers), you refer to him only as ~~san because you consider him part of your own group relative to the person you are speaking to.

Other things to becareful about is to differentiate between the usage of keigo(敬語) or polite speech, and normal speech. Even in keigo, you have to differentiate between 尊敬語sonkeigo (referential) 謙遜語kensongo (humble) and 丁寧語teineigo (polite language)
If that hasn't gotten you confused yet you also have to becareful about the differences between male and female-specific vocabulary. (e.g., sentence endings like ~~~~zo are usually used by males, while ~~~kashira or ~~~~wa are usually used by females)...