Hi, this question pops out in my mind. I play piano for about 12 years but I don't even know how to choose a good piano. Pathetic and ashamed I know there are many things need to take note like the strings, hammer and so on. However, I know almost nothing about them. Is that really difficult or I am a stupid pianist?

no, not at all.

although piano no longer my proficient instrument, i still play casually.

the best piano i played is the steinway concert grand at MPO hall, the other one which is also very nice is a Yamaha C3. here're my findings:

1. responsiveness. it's easy to play running passages without sounding mushy.
2. dynamic range. playing ppp and fff and everything in between is easy.
3. colour range. can be played with various different mood. and due to the ability of providing different colours, it's easy to e.g. voice out the top melody even when there's busy accompaniments.

the rest are pretty much personal preferences. some piano manufacturer has their own distinctive tone, some prefer one over the others.

Steinway I guess my friend told me that the touch is very heavy. She said need to use hammer to play the piano. Haha ... apparently my friend and I need to work out our fingers strength. There is a Yamaha C3 in MPO hall?

Is it true that not every steinway is good?

Apart from what you listed, we don't have to take into consideration the hammers, strings etc. when choosing a piano?

This post has been edited by christellia: Apr 4 2012, 12:08 AM

my friend played a steinway when she's studying oversea. and we share the same opinion - the steinway concert grand key's are very soft. that's the reason why you can control the keys easily.

nope, the yamaha C3 is one of my sifu's personal piano. though it was a 2nd hand unit.


on the other hand, the same friend i mentioned above, when she go to her teacher's house, and have private lesson, his steinway keys are stiff. o.O

so....i really dunno.

there's a steinway grand at where you study, for your information.


i'm not that enthusiastic when it comes to piano. if it's violin then i'll look at everything...

agree...

r all steinway good... well not... new york steinway needs some attention (regulation work) before they play nice.. hamburg steinway generally r well prepped before leaving the factory. this is because of close competition from other top european makers in europe. new york versus hamburg steiwany, generally hamburg is better prepped piano from box. pre-owned... well prepped steinway will be better than a steinway that poorly maintain...

bosendorfer, faziolli, bechstein, sauter, steinway (hamburg), bluthner, steingraeber & sohne are among the top piano in the market today. pianos vary widely in tone and touch and it rely alot on personal taste.

the touch of piano differ from one another largely due to the action design. not only design it also relates to issues including action that is too stiff or heavy may result to other issue like hammers that too heavy, key bushings and action centers that are tight or have too much friction, wrong leverage ration between critical parts ie. whippen, hammer, jack & etc, too many leads in the key/damper and many other factors… however when one speak about great piano makers listed above, many times an action play bad or feel stiff is largely due to the action is not properly regulated.

tuning a piano is not the only maintenance in a piano. a piano requires periodic regulation to adjust the touch. this adjustment is to compensate the wears and tears and dimension changes due to humidity. a piano that is not regulated will feel that keys are heavy, stiff, not responsive and so on. generally 90-95% of pianos here are not regulated from day 1, many owners only think that tuning is sufficient.

as a benchmark, 48-54 grams is the standard weight of the key set. and majority manufacturers will try to set it at 50 gram as standard. if you are under 48 or over 54 then this would be considered light or heavy, respectively. again that depends to pianist too… some pianists request to have the touch weight to be at 60 gram to them it promote better control.. some pianists may want to the touch to be lighter and so on… at present there r 2 manufacturers that provide such action where the touchweight can be adjusted in less than 10-15 minutes; fazioli and petrof. this action is called mba (magnetic balance action). the action weight can be changed at anytime. the weight of the action is controlled by the magnetic force and there are 3 adjusting points; bass, tenor and treble.

other issue that is not related to technical aspect will be psychoacoustics. if a piano is bright it will feel lighter in touch. this is because less effort is on the keys to make the piano loud. on the other hand, if the piano is mellow it may feel heavy because the pianist needs to press it harder so the piano is loud.

and NO dont be pathetic and ashamed.. there is nothing wrong to it... there are some whom played or teached for decades also dont know much about piano or the brands that are available in the market and only stuck or played that 1 brand in their life. and whatever new brands come to them they will term them as lousy piano.. dont wanna learn dont wanna accept coz they think they teach thus they are great and know everything ha ha ha... poor thing... piano industry moves on... they change...

anyways, piano is not like other consumer product. meaning they are not well advertised or marketed. information about piano is not like example cars... they very limited. as a result they r not well presented in the market. also, top piano makers make pianos that merely thousand if not some few hundred units a year as compare to mass producers (coming from asia) make 60,000 - 150,000 pianos a year. thus the exposure of mass producer pianos are more highlighted as compare to those top makers... if refering to bosendorfer piano the ratio versus top mass producer is 1:1500 ...

ok back to the topic... check out the link...
http://www.pianobuyer.com/spring12/83.html
http://www.pianobuyer.com/spring12/13.html

This post has been edited by jhp: Apr 6 2012, 09:09 AM

Yay I will only go for audition after the ballet exam.

Tuning is different with regulation? I normally will ask piano tuner to tune the piano but not regulate If I wish to regulate my piano, who should I ask? The piano tuner?

mba is new technology? It sounds pretty cool.

Ridiculous question. Does playing on heavy touch piano some period will make our fingers stronger?

For me, I think I should know it. If somebody ask me about piano, in the end I know nothing. People will think what the heck you know nothing about the instrument you play. Such an irresponsible pianist.

How to up to date with piano market and piano industry? Oh yeah and where do you learn the knowledge about piano structure?


This post has been edited by christellia: Apr 4 2012, 10:13 PM

hmm... dont know how to quote one by one .. so i will just reply here.

piano tuner versus piano technician.
tuner - tuning
technician - tuning, regulation, voicing and other general repairs
rebuilder - tuning, regulation, voicing, and all aspect on piano rebuilding he/she able to tear down the piano into pieces till the last screw... and rebuild the piano by either retain the original design or improve scaling of the piano.

heavy touch - generally yes, the more you practice on a piano that is weighted your fingering muscle will eventually becomes stronger over the long run. however there is another aspect that you will have to consider. it may be true that playing on heavy touch will eventually leads you to better control always when playing soft later. but the bad side is if you play on too heavy touch piano will leads to what i term it as cumulative tension to your fingers which will "may" stop you from playing super fast later... as u can see there both pro and con. so what is more important is to self determine if you able to handle the weight and at the same time not compromising in your playing speed. but dont tink that lighter touch is always better too ... in fact most advanced musicians like to feel a touch that is between 55-60grams. touch that is too light produce no feedback from the piano to the player. of course again too heavy will make your arms and fingers tire easily and sensitive control is gone. conclusion will be touch weight is very subjective, very personal and also subject to physical ability of one person. some can handle and some can't handle... thus most manufacturers will try to average the touch weight to be around 50 grams. adjustment can be made to change a piano's touchweight ie. usually adding or reducing key leads, change heavier or lighter hammers and so on... a 'technician' will be able to do it and is not cheap.

MBA action is new, well been around sometime actually. also, you have MAA (Magnetic Acceleration Action), yeah the name says it. accelerate the action faster movement parts and faster repetition, easier in dynamic control and so on. once i was told europe (and not other countries that manufacture pianos) will ban the use of leads because they are toxic but i am not sure what's happen since european pianos are still using leads for their keys and dampers...

piano market + industry information is very limited if not nearly complete absence about piano. largely due to large variety of brands, trade secret within manufaturers, models, strange design and terminology, competing claims from salesmen, small number of piano experts and so on maybe the factor to why information on piano is so limited.

there is this book written by larry fine and is available for free online www.pianobuyer.com it may not be everything about the industry but at least some helpful guide about some pianos that are available in the market, the mysteries of piano and so on... other will be to subscribe to music trade, attending ptg seminars, attending trade fairs, and so on...

This post has been edited by jhp: Apr 5 2012, 10:27 AM

Buying a new piano is a major purchase, so it’s important that the instrument you choose meets your needs as a pianist, has the look you seek, and suits your budget.Listen to the sounds the keyboard makes. Do they resonate realistically? Pay attention to the crispness of the high notes and the depth of the bass notes vis-a-vis the notes of a piano. Also, make sure the keyboard is velocity sensitive--that means the tone and volume change as you press the keys harder.

filpa, i believe you posted in wrong thread...

ptg is Piano Technician Guild?
http://www.ptg.org/Scripts/4Disapi.dll/4DC...9&MenuKey=Menu7

I am curious about the extra black keyboards on some grand piano especially those pianos in concert. What are that for?

Hi. I have a 7 year old girl preparing for Grade 1. Looking for a piano with budget of RM6k. Short listed down to 3 options
1. Go for popular brands like Yamaha/Kawai but the piano is 30-40 years old
2. Go with less known brand of George Sterk brand new
3. Top up to RM12k for Challen brand new but very pricey to invest when the kids are young.
Please share advise.
My girl is interested in piano.

The only company that does the extra 88 notes is Bosendorfer. Petrof used to have it in their concert grand, i think easily in the 80s. bosendorfer makes 4 models that with 4 extra keys (92) and 1 model, flagship, with 9 extra keys (97). the idea of this design is, well is almost never used, except some new music written for them but the presense of this, is part of their design having extra longer bridge and larger sounboard to add extra power, clarity and resonance to the lowest notes. however, these extra keys are usually covered with with black colour so to not confuse pianists. bosendorfer is the only grand piano that uses one continuos rim that is made of solid sections that is spruce (the material that is used for soundboard) instead of maple, beech or other hardwoods used in majority manufacturers. spruce transmit sound better than any wood thus bosendorfer tone characteristic tend to be more on the clear, clean and sweet sounding but less powerful in the bass. it is a features of more fundamental tone than higher harmonics.

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Added on April 7, 2012, 12:39 pmpiano has a lifespan... a popular name on the fallboard doesnt mean it will give u wonder, unlimited time. except telling u yeah i am a popular one.. but the condition of a piano largely comes from the structural and mechanical part of a piano. and that these parts deteriote over time due to aging and humidity.

and 30-40 years old yamaha (if u a pro yamie fan) is never the same as the present yamie. note japanese when they first make pianos there were nothing like what they are today... they have been thru the worst period to the best period, that have made them so popular today. however over the years japanese pianos have become more and more expensive due to currency fluctation, higher wages and so on. (not going to talk about how korea take place later)..

why pay for something that is old when you can get a new piano? better designed, better material, and etc.. etc... a 30-40 years old piano, i can betcha an acceptable new chinese piano can be equal or if not better than them, not to mention if you compare with some better quality chinese makers namely, broadmann, hailun, ritmuller and etc, i think they will blow them even further... smoke also cannot smell ha ha ha .

is not very difficult to test... walk into any used piano dealers (better if the dealer also carry new pianos ez to compare). press and hold the base section of the piano listen (i am sure u know how a base should sound like), then do it on the highest note on the right (treble) and listen.... (keep playing for few times if not hundred times also can hehehe.. remember the tone) .. if the base strings are good you will hear the power and depth (not on really small pianos like those 113 and below)... if the soundboard is active it will sustain longer... after that play a chord in the middle section of the piano and listen again.. then compare them with a new... in these 3 tests, the most noticable things u can find in a old junky used japanese piano wil be that the base doesnt speak or like no power, flat sound and the upper treble just fade off very quickly, voiceless... if there is no new pianos but all used then dont bother comparing (just remember their tones and go visit other shops that sell new and try) because they all buddies and help each other to sound the same make u think welll not bad also wor this 30-40 years old piano.... maybe u find even better sounding piano on a 30-40 years old that is 131cm then 121cm... hahaha.. well actually the sound better not because of quality is just they sound better coz they are louder...

hunt of used pianos from japan are now slowly declining because new piano is reviving particular those from china, better quality yet affordable. and so much things have changed in the piano industry and in china...

on new pianos, have u shop around, if not i suggest that u visit as many shop as u can and try all the available pianos in the market. ever piano is different, in tone and touch. u dont want to buy a piano just because is cheap and end up regreting later. u buy a piano because it sings to you and play nice... dont worry about discount, moving sale, 5 containers sold left 1 more etc.. this is nothing but another spin running around.. end of the day there will still be discount, they will still be at the same place when the moving out is ady been mentioned for 6 month to a year, there wil be still 5 containers sold and 1 more there and so on...

dont rush on your purchase... hv fun...

This post has been edited by jhp: Apr 7 2012, 04:05 PM

You topic and the response here is so informative.

I guess drivers are not mechanics.

Agree with the statement drivers are not mechanics!

Anyway, What kind of piano you need depends on what do you need them for?

I see many cases of kids enrolled in music classes early, kindy age, and then when they are 9 or 10, their interest started to wane, and their parents have already bought a brand new piano costing 5 figures and not including the classes fees and exam fees as well as other incidentals.

Of course, if you have already been playing for 12 years and would like to buy a new piano, it is always a good idea to let go of your old piano to a new little child who is just starting to learn the piano and you invest in a brand new baby for you to play for many more years to come, if you are going professional, the better quality the piano you need.

-- xx source: my former piano teacher

I am just think of taking piano but cost of instrument is very prohibitive. So like most people I was think of going for keyboard as a cheaper alternative. But then again maybe I may just play another instrument altogether.

kids today are lucky, parents are buying new pianos costings 5 figures.. however majority have forgotten the main idea about music learning.... "fun".. thus it is not about if the piano is going to cost you 4 figures, 5 figures or even 6 figures, is about the joy you get in return after investing so muc $$$ in a good piano, that produces beautiful sound.... that no matter how much money you have you can't buy it.. coz fun, joy that family gets is priceless...

then of coz u have other factor to consider that is how do i create an interest in music learning to my kids.

it is very true, i see many cases of kids quit after few years of playing.. why because it is not fun... why because the piece(s) is not enjoying. why because this year my teacher is enrolling me for exam and i get to play these 3 pieces only for the whole year... playing these exam pieces too long kills interest and enjoyment. notice that kids when they finish grade 8... they will be like "yahooo i am done with music class" that it.. all music books in the store and chuck aside...

imo, the goal is to get the child to be interest and play the piano, regardless of the result of the exam... music learning is all about have fun in learning, enjoying and cultivating a love for music.

exams can come way later afterall... whats good but a piece of paper that says "you passed the exam"...

enjoy... is the word... enjoy the piano music, enjoy playing the piano (or whatever instruments) and you will learn and benefit more than just a piece of certificates.

This post has been edited by jhp: Apr 20 2012, 10:19 AM

You know there are pop songs music sheets and even books on pop songs and oldies for piano?

My teacher was not happy when my parents insisted I play their favourite oldies and "customer is always right" so my teacher grudgingly searched for more oldies sheets for me to play at home to 'entertain' my elders. That was in the 80s. I remember how my mom did it, she made a copy of my cousin's oldies book, and showed it to my teacher and made a note of all the songs she love that she hope I will play for her. I was maybe Grade 2-3 at that time.

Then I developed an interest for other pieces (besides the 3 exam pieces every year) and exchanged sheets with my fellow classmates who are playing music too. It was really fun. Was, because my mom sold off my piano and used that money for a holiday to China when I moved out years ago. haha

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Added on April 20, 2012, 2:01 pmTake up violin! A few hundred RM can get a decent one already!

This post has been edited by etsy3699: Apr 20 2012, 02:01 PM

I can recommend you a very good piano shop in PJ I dont earn anything from this Better send me a Private message...cos I dont wanna sound like I am promoting them. I bought my Piano there many years ago.

This post has been edited by empire: Apr 23 2012, 01:10 AM

Honestly a good piano provides encouragement. However due to the massive development of made in China products when i just left china. I could see 8 major factories of made in china pianos such as Hailun, Wagner, Weinbach, and etc. Then to Japan a huge loads of secondhand piano from grade A to E. However was amazed with one Korean factory that makes so much difference. Prices are just too competitive yet you guys should go out and try.

Hi to all sifus,

I never play piano before but my wife did. She is in Grade 6 if I am not mistaken. I want to buy her a piano with my limited budget (RM4k - 5k) and choice (live in Kuching). Surveyed Recond Yamaha and Kawai but many netizen claim that those are not good investment. So now I am considering Hailun and Wagner. Any advice?

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Added on May 8, 2012, 5:38 pmI can feel you Apfoong . Trying to get the best with limited budget to our love one.

This post has been edited by autobeng: May 8 2012, 05:38 PM