agree...

r all steinway good... well not... new york steinway needs some attention (regulation work) before they play nice.. hamburg steinway generally r well prepped before leaving the factory. this is because of close competition from other top european makers in europe. new york versus hamburg steiwany, generally hamburg is better prepped piano from box. pre-owned... well prepped steinway will be better than a steinway that poorly maintain...

bosendorfer, faziolli, bechstein, sauter, steinway (hamburg), bluthner, steingraeber & sohne are among the top piano in the market today. pianos vary widely in tone and touch and it rely alot on personal taste.

the touch of piano differ from one another largely due to the action design. not only design it also relates to issues including action that is too stiff or heavy may result to other issue like hammers that too heavy, key bushings and action centers that are tight or have too much friction, wrong leverage ration between critical parts ie. whippen, hammer, jack & etc, too many leads in the key/damper and many other factors… however when one speak about great piano makers listed above, many times an action play bad or feel stiff is largely due to the action is not properly regulated.

tuning a piano is not the only maintenance in a piano. a piano requires periodic regulation to adjust the touch. this adjustment is to compensate the wears and tears and dimension changes due to humidity. a piano that is not regulated will feel that keys are heavy, stiff, not responsive and so on. generally 90-95% of pianos here are not regulated from day 1, many owners only think that tuning is sufficient.

as a benchmark, 48-54 grams is the standard weight of the key set. and majority manufacturers will try to set it at 50 gram as standard. if you are under 48 or over 54 then this would be considered light or heavy, respectively. again that depends to pianist too… some pianists request to have the touch weight to be at 60 gram to them it promote better control.. some pianists may want to the touch to be lighter and so on… at present there r 2 manufacturers that provide such action where the touchweight can be adjusted in less than 10-15 minutes; fazioli and petrof. this action is called mba (magnetic balance action). the action weight can be changed at anytime. the weight of the action is controlled by the magnetic force and there are 3 adjusting points; bass, tenor and treble.

other issue that is not related to technical aspect will be psychoacoustics. if a piano is bright it will feel lighter in touch. this is because less effort is on the keys to make the piano loud. on the other hand, if the piano is mellow it may feel heavy because the pianist needs to press it harder so the piano is loud.

and NO dont be pathetic and ashamed.. there is nothing wrong to it... there are some whom played or teached for decades also dont know much about piano or the brands that are available in the market and only stuck or played that 1 brand in their life. and whatever new brands come to them they will term them as lousy piano.. dont wanna learn dont wanna accept coz they think they teach thus they are great and know everything ha ha ha... poor thing... piano industry moves on... they change...

anyways, piano is not like other consumer product. meaning they are not well advertised or marketed. information about piano is not like example cars... they very limited. as a result they r not well presented in the market. also, top piano makers make pianos that merely thousand if not some few hundred units a year as compare to mass producers (coming from asia) make 60,000 - 150,000 pianos a year. thus the exposure of mass producer pianos are more highlighted as compare to those top makers... if refering to bosendorfer piano the ratio versus top mass producer is 1:1500 ...

ok back to the topic... check out the link...
http://www.pianobuyer.com/spring12/83.html
http://www.pianobuyer.com/spring12/13.html

This post has been edited by jhp: Apr 6 2012, 09:09 AM

hmm... dont know how to quote one by one .. so i will just reply here.

piano tuner versus piano technician.
tuner - tuning
technician - tuning, regulation, voicing and other general repairs
rebuilder - tuning, regulation, voicing, and all aspect on piano rebuilding he/she able to tear down the piano into pieces till the last screw... and rebuild the piano by either retain the original design or improve scaling of the piano.

heavy touch - generally yes, the more you practice on a piano that is weighted your fingering muscle will eventually becomes stronger over the long run. however there is another aspect that you will have to consider. it may be true that playing on heavy touch will eventually leads you to better control always when playing soft later. but the bad side is if you play on too heavy touch piano will leads to what i term it as cumulative tension to your fingers which will "may" stop you from playing super fast later... as u can see there both pro and con. so what is more important is to self determine if you able to handle the weight and at the same time not compromising in your playing speed. but dont tink that lighter touch is always better too ... in fact most advanced musicians like to feel a touch that is between 55-60grams. touch that is too light produce no feedback from the piano to the player. of course again too heavy will make your arms and fingers tire easily and sensitive control is gone. conclusion will be touch weight is very subjective, very personal and also subject to physical ability of one person. some can handle and some can't handle... thus most manufacturers will try to average the touch weight to be around 50 grams. adjustment can be made to change a piano's touchweight ie. usually adding or reducing key leads, change heavier or lighter hammers and so on... a 'technician' will be able to do it and is not cheap.

MBA action is new, well been around sometime actually. also, you have MAA (Magnetic Acceleration Action), yeah the name says it. accelerate the action faster movement parts and faster repetition, easier in dynamic control and so on. once i was told europe (and not other countries that manufacture pianos) will ban the use of leads because they are toxic but i am not sure what's happen since european pianos are still using leads for their keys and dampers...

piano market + industry information is very limited if not nearly complete absence about piano. largely due to large variety of brands, trade secret within manufaturers, models, strange design and terminology, competing claims from salesmen, small number of piano experts and so on maybe the factor to why information on piano is so limited.

there is this book written by larry fine and is available for free online www.pianobuyer.com it may not be everything about the industry but at least some helpful guide about some pianos that are available in the market, the mysteries of piano and so on... other will be to subscribe to music trade, attending ptg seminars, attending trade fairs, and so on...

This post has been edited by jhp: Apr 5 2012, 10:27 AM

The only company that does the extra 88 notes is Bosendorfer. Petrof used to have it in their concert grand, i think easily in the 80s. bosendorfer makes 4 models that with 4 extra keys (92) and 1 model, flagship, with 9 extra keys (97). the idea of this design is, well is almost never used, except some new music written for them but the presense of this, is part of their design having extra longer bridge and larger sounboard to add extra power, clarity and resonance to the lowest notes. however, these extra keys are usually covered with with black colour so to not confuse pianists. bosendorfer is the only grand piano that uses one continuos rim that is made of solid sections that is spruce (the material that is used for soundboard) instead of maple, beech or other hardwoods used in majority manufacturers. spruce transmit sound better than any wood thus bosendorfer tone characteristic tend to be more on the clear, clean and sweet sounding but less powerful in the bass. it is a features of more fundamental tone than higher harmonics.

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Added on April 7, 2012, 12:39 pmpiano has a lifespan... a popular name on the fallboard doesnt mean it will give u wonder, unlimited time. except telling u yeah i am a popular one.. but the condition of a piano largely comes from the structural and mechanical part of a piano. and that these parts deteriote over time due to aging and humidity.

and 30-40 years old yamaha (if u a pro yamie fan) is never the same as the present yamie. note japanese when they first make pianos there were nothing like what they are today... they have been thru the worst period to the best period, that have made them so popular today. however over the years japanese pianos have become more and more expensive due to currency fluctation, higher wages and so on. (not going to talk about how korea take place later)..

why pay for something that is old when you can get a new piano? better designed, better material, and etc.. etc... a 30-40 years old piano, i can betcha an acceptable new chinese piano can be equal or if not better than them, not to mention if you compare with some better quality chinese makers namely, broadmann, hailun, ritmuller and etc, i think they will blow them even further... smoke also cannot smell ha ha ha .

is not very difficult to test... walk into any used piano dealers (better if the dealer also carry new pianos ez to compare). press and hold the base section of the piano listen (i am sure u know how a base should sound like), then do it on the highest note on the right (treble) and listen.... (keep playing for few times if not hundred times also can hehehe.. remember the tone) .. if the base strings are good you will hear the power and depth (not on really small pianos like those 113 and below)... if the soundboard is active it will sustain longer... after that play a chord in the middle section of the piano and listen again.. then compare them with a new... in these 3 tests, the most noticable things u can find in a old junky used japanese piano wil be that the base doesnt speak or like no power, flat sound and the upper treble just fade off very quickly, voiceless... if there is no new pianos but all used then dont bother comparing (just remember their tones and go visit other shops that sell new and try) because they all buddies and help each other to sound the same make u think welll not bad also wor this 30-40 years old piano.... maybe u find even better sounding piano on a 30-40 years old that is 131cm then 121cm... hahaha.. well actually the sound better not because of quality is just they sound better coz they are louder...

hunt of used pianos from japan are now slowly declining because new piano is reviving particular those from china, better quality yet affordable. and so much things have changed in the piano industry and in china...

on new pianos, have u shop around, if not i suggest that u visit as many shop as u can and try all the available pianos in the market. ever piano is different, in tone and touch. u dont want to buy a piano just because is cheap and end up regreting later. u buy a piano because it sings to you and play nice... dont worry about discount, moving sale, 5 containers sold left 1 more etc.. this is nothing but another spin running around.. end of the day there will still be discount, they will still be at the same place when the moving out is ady been mentioned for 6 month to a year, there wil be still 5 containers sold and 1 more there and so on...

dont rush on your purchase... hv fun...

This post has been edited by jhp: Apr 7 2012, 04:05 PM

kids today are lucky, parents are buying new pianos costings 5 figures.. however majority have forgotten the main idea about music learning.... "fun".. thus it is not about if the piano is going to cost you 4 figures, 5 figures or even 6 figures, is about the joy you get in return after investing so muc $$$ in a good piano, that produces beautiful sound.... that no matter how much money you have you can't buy it.. coz fun, joy that family gets is priceless...

then of coz u have other factor to consider that is how do i create an interest in music learning to my kids.

it is very true, i see many cases of kids quit after few years of playing.. why because it is not fun... why because the piece(s) is not enjoying. why because this year my teacher is enrolling me for exam and i get to play these 3 pieces only for the whole year... playing these exam pieces too long kills interest and enjoyment. notice that kids when they finish grade 8... they will be like "yahooo i am done with music class" that it.. all music books in the store and chuck aside...

imo, the goal is to get the child to be interest and play the piano, regardless of the result of the exam... music learning is all about have fun in learning, enjoying and cultivating a love for music.

exams can come way later afterall... whats good but a piece of paper that says "you passed the exam"...

enjoy... is the word... enjoy the piano music, enjoy playing the piano (or whatever instruments) and you will learn and benefit more than just a piece of certificates.

This post has been edited by jhp: Apr 20 2012, 10:19 AM

hailun is an up and coming new brand on the market and have entered the european and american market quite a splash. at NAMM, MusicFair-Frankfurt and MusicFair-Shanghai their piano is highly regarded. designed by some top designer-technicians, well known heavyweights within the piano industry, and they are considered among the very best pianos coming from china today.

according to australia agent, i was told thanks to the owner, mr. hailun (ya piano under his name, the only chinese maker dares to use it) willing to invest money in high technology and machinery, import top raw materials and pay higher wages to his employees that he believe is the key ingredient in making top piano today. oh ya, hailun is the only non european piano sitting in golden concert hall, vienna (the first time ever a chinese piano) and not to mention used in other top universities in austria, brussel, paris, london and many more.

wagner on the other hand, once assembled in europe - petrof due to high cost, have begin to work with hailun (i think for the last decade) and assemble piano based on wagner's spec.

today, hailun also manufacture pianos/parts for zimmerman, bechstein, feurich, weinbach and kawai piano parts. and my last visit to their factory, tqs to invitation from australia dealer, hailun ady building a new factory with size 60,000 sq m.... was told total size if we include other hailun factories, they will have a size of 150,000 sq m.... big... many football fields

between hailun and wagner both diff. pianos thou they come from the same company, largely due to specs. just like the weinbach, feurich, bechstein and etc they all sound and feel diff...

ops.. too much of reading and info coming from their catalogue, website & etc he he.. not that good actually marketing spin i guess... ha ha ha.. anyways as a musical instrument, you wont go wrong between these 2 marques... end of the day, is all about personal preferences, the truth is in the hands and ears.... please try to decide between them because of what anyone tells you about them is a waste of time. again, you need to try them and listen. this is the beauty of a musical instruments... )

and recond pianos common no more junks.. u have choice today... stay away... i dont see any beauty in them, as a musical instrument with musical sound quality, other than just tha name on the fallboard... with new paint work, shinny metal hinges, white key ha ha ha.. what a junk... spend the $$$ at the right thing... if not u can t/t the money to me

This post has been edited by jhp: May 9 2012, 01:04 PM

very true le... only know is east malaysia is infested with used pianos from japan .... it is very sad. the last donkey years i was there for holiday and visited some shops ... duh... nothing .... showing me piece of paper with colours.. i wanted to ask the salesman if i play and listen to how it sound from err paper // (just kidding).. ... but seriously majority dealers dont carry stock and hoping to sell from piece of paper.. which is the worst part... a piano must be there... who the hell will buy a piano without playing..

for used pianos from jepun... wow these u see a lot.. sad sad... there r so many brand out there... they carry them coz is ez to sell.. consumer only know about his brand... (sad lor seller doesnt educate them and teacher too.. not all some really haiiss... work on good commission... ) yamaha mah popular.. but why? answer dont know u see arr everybody have yamaha.. oh is it.. why they so good, err dont know? sound good lor wah.. good answer... how good.. u see everybody using it... u see them here, there, up there down there... ... there just so many brands in the market and frankly they not the best... (ops.. dont get me wrong i am not kicking them, i lov their pianos, yes the better one like CF n S series... oh and lovely shegiru too, but i tot just overated maybe, personal preferences... .. and they are good but they not the same as the other brothers that carry the same marques... jepun is good at tat... check out their hondas... hmm city, civic, interga, legend, NSX woo... NSX is not city he he he or how about nissan gtr (wooo sweet car) is not nissan sentra

anways... lil' sad too how piano industry is marketed - almost zero information.. can't blame much also.. piano design is not something that can be explain easily or in words (coz the end result is tone and touch - that is something so personal).... serious one i met handful piano designers gosh it is not easy to understand their language he he he... there is a saying making piano is not as easy as 1 + 1 = 2... having best raw materials mean nothing if the scaling is poor or if the workers dont know how to put them in place... there too many variables... soundboard dimension, string length, bridge position, tuning pins, and etc.... ... so the best bet is play them... they will sing to you.. if u dont like it is okay.. macam like american idol ha ha ha... yes or no.. 3 yes see u in hollywood... ... every human beings have own preferences.. and liking 1 thing and not liking the other is nothing wrong... is preference.....

yes u can copy from the best but the end result is not the same.. this what asian piano makers have done... many of their design today (of coz some improve it) were expired patents from great piano makers in europe and america.... oh do u know that a piano is tune to imperfection that why u have this beautiful sound.. yeah... if u tune a piano to perfect u will cry...

taiwan factory yeah use to have one... it is a yamaha factory but already closed down... moved to china... malaysia, yes there was a factory in perak somewhere... also closed down those days they were making pianos under british marques... production is still on just that they are now from china maybe indonesia.

to be frank your budget brings you to only used pianos. maybe lower entry level new pianos from china, not sure maybe only... not the better ones thou...

hey.. u have airasia.. everybody can fly.... hmm.. sound like eveyrbody can fly and play

This post has been edited by jhp: May 9 2012, 03:59 PM

ritmuller piano was once handled by wagner piano sb some 8++ years ago, i was told, until they found hailun. today, ritmuller is handled by bentley music, seen this piano sitting at one corner some 1.5++ years ago. ) far far away from their steinways showroom..

This post has been edited by jhp: Jul 25 2012, 10:43 AM

according to larry fine author of pianobuyer.com, he rated ritmuller as upper level consumer grade pianos, and in the same categories as broadmann (parson), hailun, kawai (indonesia) and yamaha (china). personally, i will add that the hailun, broadmann & pianos in your list as these piano also give lots of performance and are reasonably priced.

then use the ears and hands as the primary decision makers. pick the pianos that sound and feel good, every piano have its own distinct sound character and feel... pick the one that is best . u have plenty of choice today...

i am sure you have no regret picking anyone... hv fun..

just for your info ritmuller comes 2 models 1) UP models and 2) UH models. UP model is old design of the ritmuller, similar hmm.. actually they the same as pearl river pianos. when pearl river hired world renowned bechstein designer, mr lothar thomma, they came up with a new model called UH. this model have been in the market for 2-3 years +... UH is more expensive and more refined model as compare to UP

as for prices:-
broadmann - started not very long ago by 2 senior of bosendorfer co. piano is manufactured by parson music in china (another big timer in music retailer after tom lee hongkong). parson also make pianos for kawai (china) and to arrrrrr forgot the brand ops sorry.... broadman is not cheap $$$$$ i mean for something coming from asia. (of coz selected models)

hailun - one most talk about piano today. self own factory bought over from government in 1998 to have better quality control and hiring say in the company. like many top piano makers, hailun have the most advance manufacturing facility and said to have the largest skilled manual labour among other makers in china. they make pianos for bechstein, zimmerman, kawai (parts), wagner and weinbach... the prices should be within the ritmuller range..

kawai - the china version is oem from beijing xinghai. this brand use to be known as linden.. err.. yeah din sell very well coz the name until they switch it back to kawai.. the model coming from china will be kx series. when kawai closed down their north carolina factory and move to indonesia, told they gonna have upright. not sure the model haven't seen it before yet. a little high on the price but still cheaper than an equal size yamaha

yamaha - indonesia. i think the u1j is nicer. so much better than ju90. however a little overpriced. for the money, plenty of choices. as for the china version - i have yet to see one. only tried one long donkey years ago during the joint-venture period between yamaha and pearl river came up with this yamaha UP125M1 or something (aha.. yeah UP model sound familiar rite, hehehe refer to rit explanation).

check this link. www.pianobuyer.com/spring12/45.html

ps. dont get me wrong. not trying to sway u away from yamaha or kawai... they nice piano but with china today (those good ones) there' now an alternative and many times better value too... of coz if u do like them it not a wrong thing too .....

This post has been edited by jhp: Jul 25 2012, 04:18 PM

let me see.. make ur search easier

ritmuller - www.bentleymusic.com
hailun - www.wagnerpiano.com
yamaha - my.yamaha.com
kawai - http://www.kawaimalaysia.com/eAsia2u/engli...ome.jsp?co=1849
broadman - i dont think there is any in malaysia. maybe they do i dont know. nearest singapore. www.robertpiano.com

hmm.. u check broadman with kawai ppl too... since they get their kawai from singapore...

This post has been edited by jhp: Jul 25 2012, 04:10 PM

ops my mistake, added "a" suppose to be brodmann. the brodmann does not belongs to parson.

well... history of brodman started way back bfore bosendorfer. ignaz bosendorfer was an apprenticed in brodmann workshop he took over the company and the first bosendorfer was produced at joseph brodmann factory. of coz there is not much history about brodmann company that is based in vienna, founded 2003 / 2004 by 2 former bosendorfer executives. brodmann was the other company bidding to purchase bosendorfer however, they lost the bid to yamaha. anyways, at fair, they produce some nice pianos PE, CE and AE. as i know some models are assembled in parson, some completely and some assemble in germany...

This post has been edited by jhp: Jul 26 2012, 12:59 PM

brodman company gave the license to parson to make their piano under trademark brodmann... ownership and appointed to manufacture r both diff thing..... ownership - brodmann; factory assigned to manufacture - parson factory at yi chang, owner mr. wu. ie. kawai china licensed parson to make their kawai piano. parson doesnt own kawai. they r contracted/licensed by kawai to make piano under the trademark. oh in malaysia u wont find the kawai from parson but from xinghai beijing factory becoz of agreement. china kawai - parson is solely china market.

zimmerman (bechstein) contracted hailun to make the piano for them, hailun doesnt own the mark. or essex(steinway) contracted young chang and pearl river to make their pianos, but they dont own essex it belongs to steinway. or boston (steinway) contract kawai to make the piano but the ownersship of the mark belongs to steinway. soon mayb boston will be made by samick. i am sure one day since samick boss now sits in the board of steinway group co.,

of coz u see brodmann in hongkong. brodmann setup a company in hkg at chatham road, tsimshatsui. and i am not suprise if the pianos are at parson music. i dont need to go hkg le.. i go singapore, robert pianos i can see brodmann ady. or australia at winston music...

as i know parson own brands r barratt and robinson (vienna music / musical product once owner of this mark) and another few china marks, one of them is called "yangtze" something... and they own Wilh. Steinberg, recently acquired....

This post has been edited by jhp: Jul 26 2012, 01:54 PM

Schonbrunn is house brand belongs and manufactured by Parsons Music (HQ - HongKong) and is one of few good piano makers in China.

Another good brand is Hailun. It's name after the original founder Chen, Hailun. It is an award winning piano maker and a premium built quality piano from China WON The PIANO LINE OF THE YEAR AWARD 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2017 by MMR - USA. In addition, the only Chinese piano to be in the MMR's Hall of fame in 2015. And, rated by pianobuyer.com as Professional / Premium category - piano equal if not surpasses the quality of Japanese pianos.

End of the day, try as many pianos that you can find in your area. Every piano is different in it's tone and touch. And, more important, everyone has it's own preference of tone.

CHOOSE the piano you like better and enjoy.

This post has been edited by jhp: Sep 20 2021, 03:08 PM